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[Bob White]

Seriously...I think the MVC series is very noob friendly. I know, I know. MVC2 is a horrible beast full of all kinds of crazy shit BUT, the magic series for combos is fucking awesome. I remember way back in high school when it came out, everyone was playing.

"hey dude, how do you play?"
"launch...light to hard, then super"

I mean, yeah, we were all scrubby as shit, but the engine was very easy to explain.

All the people asking for some sort of smash bros system, fuck that mess. Really, it won't make you better. And it won't let you do those badass youtube combos you dream of being able to pull off. It's all in a simple linking system, I think. Which is why I can't understand Capcom's mindset on SF4. "Hey, let's make everything SUPER easy to pull off....but make chaining jabs together hard as fuck!" .....wtf?

 

[voodoopanda]

This discussion pops up every so often. The traditional fighting game a la SF2 is more like a sport or a game like chess than your usual video game. It's a well realized gaming system with a lot of depth. That's why people are still playing some variation of SF2 since it came out.

So when people ask to change "fighting games," the fans of said genre get annoyed much like if someone wanted to change chess. As if someone liked checkers but thought chess is too complicated with each piece doing something different, and that they should "noobify" chess to make it easier to play. Obviously chess fans would be against that.

Now there's nothing wrong with either chess or checkers, but I think it's just an issue of what the words "fighting game" mean to different people that causes an argument. I think what a lot of people are asking for is just an all new kind of game to exist in addition to classic fighting games, instead of turning Street Fighter into Smash Bros.

Variety is great, and hopefully people will make good games that fill all desires.

 

[Ducarmel]

Only two buttons attack and guard. I remember playing it a lot when it was released wish they made a sequel.

The game tries to focus on simplicity with a "pick up and play" feel that isn't daunting to new players. Fighting takes place on a 3D field and allows characters to move backwards, forwards, and sidestep left and right with ease. Most of the fighting is done with range-based attacks, but it is possible to attack from a short range and use grapple moves on your opponent. The fighting system only utilizes two main buttons, attack and guard, unlike most fighters, such as the Street Fighter series.

Each character controls in exactly the same manner; however, each character has a set of unique attacks along with an ultra-attack that requires the player to expel Power Stocks. By holding the down the attack button, a character can charge up to 3 Power Stocks. The time that it takes to fully charge a stock depends on the current health of the character; a character with more health will take longer to charge while a character with minimal health could charge all 3 stocks in a few seconds.

Many characters feature attacks that have lengthy animations, which adds a more dramatic and dynamic feel to battles. A general "dramatic" encounter can occur if both characters perform a dash attack at each other at the same time. This results in an event called a Pressure Dash where both characters must rapidly hit buttons in order to gain an advantage over the other player. The most notable animations are those used for each character's ultra-attack, which can last up to 20 seconds long. These animations can become even longer when they are used as the attack that will finish the opponent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_Zone

 

[Kimosabae]

 

[benny_a]

All the people asking for some sort of smash bros system, fuck that mess. Really, it won't make you better. And it won't let you do those badass youtube combos you dream of being able to pull off.

I'm personally thinking of the way Tatsunoko vs. Capcom on the Wii is working. I can definitely confirm that it's very approachable to someone that plays maybe 4 hours of fighting games in a year. (This will probably change because of MvC3's simple mode and MK9 being generally more simple than for example the Street Fighter series).

After around 5 minutes I was able to do crazy attacks and fun stuff. Powerful attacks were appearing on the screen whenever I wanted to.

I know that the game is also played at EVO, which leads me to believe that it also has the necessary depth as it isn't immediately dismissed by people that love the genre.

 

[MNC]

Unintentional mechanics like wavedashing make the Melee system surprisingly deep. That's not to say it might be easy to learn, but hard to master. God now I want to play some matches; Melee feels so good.

 

[ShinNL]

Only a few mentions of charge moves in this thread and no one actually points out the HAX that is spamming charge moves in EO? Hey, let's walk forward and do a Blanka ball. Or let's stroll around and do a random somersault out of nowhere. It's like none of you are fighting game fans by not pointing this bullshit out. TvC has the same nonsense. Make an option to ban/filter dumb easy-mode.

 

[vocab]

I'm personally thinking of the way Tatsunoko vs. Capcom on the Wii is working. I can definitely confirm that it's very approachable to someone that plays maybe 4 hours of fighting games in a year. (This will probably change because of MvC3's simple mode and MK9 being generally more simple than for example the Street Fighter series).

After around 5 minutes I was able to do crazy attacks and fun stuff. Powerful attacks were appearing on the screen whenever I wanted to.

I know that the game is also played at EVO, which leads me to believe that it also has the necessary depth as it isn't immediately dismissed by people that love the genre.

TVC is a good game, but it isn't simple. It's just way more accesiable compared to other 3 button games. Aside from the giants and Zero, it's got a lot going for it. Making it Wii exclusive kinda sucked.

Only a few mentions of charge moves in this thread and no one actually points out the HAX that is spamming charge moves in EO? Hey, let's walk forward and do a Blanka ball. Or let's stroll around and do a random somersault out of nowhere. It's like none of you are fighting game fans by not pointing this bullshit out. TvC has the same nonsense. Make an option to ban/filter dumb easy-mode.

I thought it was mentioned so I didn't mention it. No charge for EO is hilarious. It makes blanka's A tier turn into god tier.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I'm personally thinking of the way Tatsunoko vs. Capcom on the Wii is working. I can definitely confirm that it's very approachable to someone that plays maybe 4 hours of fighting games in a year. (This will probably change because of MvC3's simple mode and MK9 being generally more simple than for example the Street Fighter series).

After around 5 minutes I was able to do crazy attacks and fun stuff. Powerful attacks were appearing on the screen whenever I wanted to.

I know that the game is also played at EVO, which leads me to believe that it also has the necessary depth as it isn't immediately dismissed by people that love the genre."


The only thing "Simpler" about TVC's controls is that they have less buttons, which doesn't seem to be the key issue people have a problem with. It still uses QCF/DP/etc. motions liberally for every character.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Only a few mentions of charge moves in this thread and no one actually points out the HAX that is spamming charge moves in EO? Hey, let's walk forward and do a Blanka ball. Or let's stroll around and do a random somersault out of nowhere. It's like none of you are fighting game fans by not pointing this bullshit out. TvC has the same nonsense. Make an option to ban/filter dumb easy-mode.

That's why the "easier" controls shouldn't be shoehorned into an established series, and instead part of a new IP. I'd be down for a Sony All Stars fighter that controlled like Smash Bros, or a new Capcom fighter that's just as deep as Street Fighter but with a simpler input system.

 

[hteng]

TVC is a good game, but it isn't simple. It's just way more accesiable compared to other 3 button games. Aside from the giants and Zero, it's got a lot going for it. Making it Wii exclusive kinda sucked.



I thought it was mentioned so I didn't mention it. No charge for EO is hilarious. It makes blanka's A tier turn into god tier.

it's on the arcades too

 

[vocab]

it's on the arcades too

The old version is

 

[ShinNL]

The only thing "Simpler" about TVC's controls is that they have less buttons, which doesn't seem to be the key issue people have a problem with. It still uses QCF/DP/etc. motions liberally for every character.

There's an easy-mode Wiimote option, which lets you shoot Zero's charge projectile endlessly. It's sooo stupid.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"There's an easy-mode Wiimote option, which lets you shoot Zero's charge projectile endlessly. It's sooo stupid."


I believe the Simple Controls option isn't allowed at Evo, so him mentioning that the game was at Evo and thus the fighting game community felt it was deep enough is irrelevant. They were practically playing a different game.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Funny you say this, since i see so any people complain about SF4s 'needless' complexities.

Combo timing in SF4 is still a barrier to entry IMO. Makes the game feel more rigid and less like a flowing experience like previous games in the series. Combine this with the anemic training options in SF4 and it doesn't lend itself at all to what Ono claims he was aiming at in terms of making the series more friendly to the less experienced.

Also in attempting to dumb down the inputs, the predictive / softened commands has created a frustrating experience for me. When the inputs were pre-SF4 if a move didn't come out, it didn't come out, fine. Now I go a direction over and a move I don't want comes out.

This is fun for inexperienced players, but for me it's a massive pain in the balls. I don't have to deal with that sh*t in BB:CS.

I still don't find the FA system as intuitive as parrying, FADC is still not readily apparent in it's use to me, and I really dislike that you stand to eat damage using an FA to negate a projectile. Parrying was pure risk / reward. FA charges an interest rate on attempting to avoid projectile spam.

And removing the different jumps KoF/SF3 style is another change I don't cotton to. More space controlling options to players on the defense in 2D fighters is a good thing IMO.

it's on the arcades too

Arcades are useless to the Western world. It's unfortunate, but true. TvC got Street Fighter 3'd, sent to die on a platform that couldn't sustain it (Dreamcast/Wii).

 

[Platy]

That's why the "easier" controls shouldn't be shoehorned into an established series, and instead part of a new IP. I'd be down for a Sony All Stars fighter that controlled like Smash Bros, or a new Capcom fighter that's just as deep as Street Fighter but with a simpler input system.

Like a new .... Pocket Fighter *.*

edit : wich is ... kinda a reverse example than the gc-ism ... they made the COMBOS easier and keep the hadouken/shoryuken stuff

 

[ShinNL]

I believe the Simple Controls option isn't allowed at Evo, so him mentioning that the game was at Evo and thus the fighting game community felt it was deep enough is irrelevant. They were practically playing a different game.

I wasn't continuing someone else's argument though, was just pointing out that there were easy controls that you didn't mention.

You really should italic your quotes for readability. Or maybe it's a test to see if people clean up their posts when replying to you (removing the quote in quote manually)?

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I wasn't continuing someone else's argument though, was just pointing out that there were easy controls that you didn't mention."


I know you weren't continuing his argument.

 

[benny_a]

"There's an easy-mode Wiimote option, which lets you shoot Zero's charge projectile endlessly. It's sooo stupid."


I believe the Simple Controls option isn't allowed at Evo, so him mentioning that the game was at Evo and thus the fighting game community felt it was deep enough is irrelevant. They were practically playing a different game.

I don't know if they are talking about EVO also, but at Devastation it doesn't seem to be banned.
Source: http://shoryuken.com/f306/wii-mote-banned-243385/

I was however not aware that most people at that level don't play that way though.

 

[vocab]

Combo timing in SF4 is still a barrier to entry IMO. Makes the game feel more rigid and less like a flowing experience like previous games in the series. Combine this with the anemic training options in SF4 and it doesn't lend itself at all to what Ono claims he was aiming at in terms of making the series more friendly to the less experienced.

Also in attempting to dumb down the inputs, the predictive / softened commands has created a frustrating experience for me. When the inputs were pre-SF4 if a move didn't come out, it didn't come out, fine. Now I go a direction over and a move I don't want comes out.

This is fun for inexperienced players, but for me it's a massive pain in the balls. I don't have to deal with that sh*t in BB:CS.

.

Yup, and I love how the game always prioritizes supers over ultras EVEN WHEN I HIT ALL THREE PUNCH BUTTONS. Shit like that made me quit the game. Why should I have to end a motion in UF to "trick" the game into thinking I want to do a ultra instead of a DP off a FADC. It's non sense.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"I don't know if they are talking about EVO also, but at Devastation it doesn't seem to be banned.
Source: http://shoryuken.com/f306/wii-mote-banned-243385/

I was however not aware that most people at that level don't play that way though."


I could definitely be wrong. But, sll of the "good" players absolutely don't use it.

 

[Kimosabae]

It's all marketing. You can create a fighter with intuitive controls and a complex fighting system - it's not rocket science. All that matters is how the consumer base perceives the game. If you want light-hearted appeal, make sure the aesthetics are in place and be up-front about the mechanics in your game, so people looking for the meat and potatoes take notice.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Yup, and I love how the game always prioritizes supers over ultras EVEN WHEN I HIT ALL THREE PUNCH BUTTONS. Shit like that made me quit the game. Why should I have to end a motion in UF to "trick" the game into thinking I want to do a ultra instead of a DP off a FADC. It's non sense.

Ultard moves need to die in a fire. The reward for taking damage is experience. If you don't learn from your losses in fighting games, then there's always FPS.

 

[Replicant]

Mortal Kombat 2 and 3 were pretty easy even for beginner IMO.

 

[Kimosabae]

Yup, and I love how the game always prioritizes supers over ultras EVEN WHEN I HIT ALL THREE PUNCH BUTTONS. Shit like that made me quit the game. Why should I have to end a motion in UF to "trick" the game into thinking I want to do a ultra instead of a DP off a FADC. It's non sense.

You guys know that's you're own fault, right? Ultras do have priority over Supers. Game would be unplayable otherwise.

Yes, it'd be better for people actually trying to learn to play the game proper to receive a null-action rather than a DP action if they screw up, but doing Dbl QCF motion clean will result in an Ultra every time. The over-compensation method is only applicable if you have problems hitting forward before hitting the 3 punches (you're hitting Punch x 3 too soon, at the down-forward input)

 

[corrosivefrost]

Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 for the Gamecube always felt like what Smash *should* feel like. That game was easy to pick up, not overly complex, but was still varied enough to be fun.

BlazBlue:CT had some sort of beginner mode.
The general a>b>c>d mechanic is pretty easy to pick up, though you still have to learn your specials if you're playing BB:CS, I think.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

I tried EO in CVS2 once, I felt dirty

You say this like it's a good thing.

It is.

 

[shaowebb]

Specials aren't everything. Even on EO setups like in TvC a fair combo player will still destroy a special spammer. Just saying is all.

FADC for the win...literally.

 

[Desi]

Only two buttons attack and guard. I remember playing it a lot when it was released wish they made a sequel.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_Zone

it took 104 posts to bring up Evil Zone? I don't want a sequel...

Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4 for the Gamecube always felt like what Smash *should* feel like. That game was easy to pick up, not overly complex, but was still varied enough to be fun.

yeah and when a character was unbalanced I could always blame it on the comic lol. Actually 4 was much better on balance compared to the others before.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

Specials aren't everything. Even on EO setups like in TvC a fair combo player will still destroy a special spammer. Just saying is all.

FADC for the win...literally.

I've never played TvC, but I'd imagine their would be a lot of combos that utilize specials in them.

 

[Syril]

BlazBlue:CT had some sort of beginner mode.
The general a>b>c>d mechanic is pretty easy to pick up, though you still have to learn your specials if you're playing BB:CS, I think.

Calamity Trigger had two specials, one super, and Astral Heat mapped to the right joystick. It worked a lot better in that because you didn't multiple strengths of the same moves for the most part. I wish they kept it for Continuum Shift.

 

[Bob White]

This thread just reminded me of Destrega. The awesome wanna be DBZ-lite that Koei made in the late 90s. It was fucking awesome. My jaded hardcore frame data reading eyes still look at this game as a fucking masterpiece. God I miss this. "tidu est fo"

Here's an in game tutorial on the engine. Not too shabby, I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjpyFiH8mqI&feature=player_detailpage#t=81s

 

[grap3fruitman]

With the Dead or Alive games once you learn the counter system you can pretty much master the game... so like two hours of playing?

Tekken doesn't really take much skill but it's still more difficult to master than DOA which makes Itagaki cry.

You've already been mocked, so I'll just state that I agree with the people mocking you.

Skillzilla81 on xbl. Let's play doa4.

I haven't played in years so I'm fairly rusty but I'd like to take on the mighty master of counters. My gamertag's grap3fruitman.

You end up looking like you know nothing about DOA?

:lol

 

[Boney]

Tatsunoko does a great job at linking the moves part. Love that.

 

[Augemitbutter]

i don't remember anybody complaining about controls when SF II came out. everybody adapted real quick and memorized the basic control scheme to this day.

it is fine at its current state, no need to ruin established genres.

 

[Kimosabae]

i don't remember anybody complaining about controls when SF II came out. everybody adapted real quick and memorized the basic control scheme to this day.

it is fine at its current state, no need to ruin established genres.

That's forward thinking!

 

[Monroeski]

Yeah, it should be "the blue fireball thing" "the one where he jumps and punch in the same time" and "that weird spinning kick move".

That, or "Fireball," "Dragon Punch," and "Hurricane Kick," like basically everybody called them back when SF2 was super popular.

One of the two.

 

[vocab]

You guys know that's you're own fault, right? Ultras do have priority over Supers. Game would be unplayable otherwise.

Yes, it'd be better for people actually trying to learn to play the game proper to receive a null-action rather than a DP action if they screw up, but doing Dbl QCF motion clean will result in an Ultra every time. The over-compensation method is only applicable if you have problems hitting forward before hitting the 3 punches (you're hitting Punch x 3 too soon, at the down-forward input)

Re-Read my post. Also. I play super turbo. I know how to do a real DP motion, and real QCF's. Down, Down forward, Forward x 2 does not fucking equal a dragon punch.

 

[Kimosabae]

Re-Read my post. Also. I play super turbo. I know how to do a real DP motion, and real QCF's. Down, Down forward, Forward x 2 does not fucking equal a dragon punch.

And it doesn't in SSF4, so I don't see your point?

 

[ElFly]

Only a few mentions of charge moves in this thread and no one actually points out the HAX that is spamming charge moves in EO? Hey, let's walk forward and do a Blanka ball. Or let's stroll around and do a random somersault out of nowhere. It's like none of you are fighting game fans by not pointing this bullshit out. TvC has the same nonsense. Make an option to ban/filter dumb easy-mode.

Eh.

Considering that it (CvS2) relegates the normal moves to the shoulder buttons, I'd say it's balanced.

 

[Kadey]

As long as the core fighters stay the same, I don't really care much about the others. Capcom was smart enough to keep SF basic mechanics the same throughout each game.

Not a fan of each Marvel game becoming easier and easier to pick up and play but if it's to get more people interested, it's alright. Each of these games are easy to pick up but definitely not easy to master at high levels.

Simplifying the controls to one button is way too easy though. It's enough that in versus mode you can handicap the amount of life usually and joysticks and controllers having a turbo feature. How much more of a edge do you want? To me, that doesn't feel rewarding at all.

 

[Rahxephon91]

I am by no means good at fighting games at all, but I see no fun in Easy Operation modes. Half the fun for me is learning how to play the game and using that knowledge to win. I also don't think it's that hard to learn. As I've been playing more and more 2d fighting games, its easier to actually do the moves and it becomes more natural. Yes, I use to look at move sets and be somewhat imitated, but all I had to do was sit there and try them. So I think for me having simplified controls just leads to spamming shit, but then again if I really know how to play the game a spammer shouldn't be a problem.

 

[aaaaaa]

Press select

David Sirlin's proposal for SF4 included two versions of every character, one with classic controls and one with simplified controls based on this game. I thought that was an idea with merit.

 

[bistromathics]

The moment fighting games turned into frame-by-frame spreadsheets is the time fighting games started to die same as SHMUPs. Capcom is trying to make fighting games more accessible, same with CAVE and their Novice Mode for SHMUPs. Kudos to them for that, the more people play the better.

That is completely not how frame data is used. You use it to see what is possible in order to build combos, set up situations, or find holes in patterns you get hit by a lot. Also, I've never done the math to check if sakura's blocked lk tatsu -> cr. hp is a frame trap, but figured it out just from seeing it hit a number of times.

 

[CPS2]

Just add better training modes where they teach you how to play.

iirc, EO in CvS2 broke the game because it made some charge moves command moves, which made all these new infinites possible. I didn't play a whole lot of CvS2, just remember hearing that somewhere.

But yeah if people are complaining about how complicated fighters are, simplifying the controls will not stop people from knowing the properties of each move, frame data and so on, and the discussion will still be pretty much the same as it always was. People tend to want to keep figuring new stuff out, and all that info adds up. e.g. the marvel games! Extremely technical games that have simplified controls. It doesn't make any difference.

 

[Nemo]

David Sirlin's proposal for SF4 included two versions of every character, one with classic controls and one with simplified controls based on this game. I thought that was an idea with merit.

Yeah that sounds great actually. Would make online much more interesting for beginners

The GBA version's also the best version of SFII, anywhere everywhere.

 

[Kimosabae]

Just add better training modes where they teach you how to play.

I never liked this idea. I think it intimidates more than it encourages. The only way they this could work is if were somehow made it fun and an intrinsic part of the gameplay experience - similar to how modern FPSs introduce mechanics to the player, piecemeal, via progression of the gameplay experience.

 

[bistromathics]

Re-Read my post. Also. I play super turbo. I know how to do a real DP motion, and real QCF's. Down, Down forward, Forward x 2 does not fucking equal a dragon punch.

yea but

d, df, f, d, df, f

sure does

 

[Platy]

David Sirlin's proposal for SF4 included two versions of every character, one with classic controls and one with simplified controls based on this game. I thought that was an idea with merit.

Ok ... now it got me curious !
What is so important about that select thing ?
Can anyone explain me what kinda of simplification happened here (besides the obvious 4 butons only)

edit :

I never liked this idea. I think it intimidates more than it encourages. The only way they this could work is if were somehow made it fun and an intrinsic part of the gameplay experience - similar to how modern FPSs introduce mechanics to the player, piecemeal, via progression of the gameplay experience.

Like Street 4's Challenge mode, but more user friendly... like explaining the timing and the shortcuts

 

[Papercuts]

I never liked this idea. I think it intimidates more than it encourages. The only way they this could work is if were somehow made it fun and an intrinsic part of the gameplay experience - similar to how modern FPSs introduce mechanics to the player, piecemeal, via progression of the gameplay experience.

It's still better than offering NOTHING at all. The trials in (S)SFIV don't tell you how do to shit, you need to figure out how to FADC, the timing on everything, and it explicitly doesn't tell you stuff like oiling up with Hakan to do a certain combo, or using Juri's U1 to be able to do a combo. Along with the spacing needed(corner only or whatever).

BlazBlue: CS tells you stuff from the very basics(talking about the HUD, how to walk back and forth, jump, etc) and quickly has you doing cancels and chaining moves, telling you 3C is a universal sweep, useful stuff. The Challenges here atleast let you watch a replay of what it looks like.

For something that is supposed to be good for newcomers, it just seems like it really should have some kind of tutuorial. Being engaging and fun would obviously be best, but just having some easy source of info dumped would be leaps and bounds more helpful.