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[Sir Garbageman]

I think most fighting game fans would agree that arbitrary execution barriers are unnecessary and should be removed. Everyone who is clamoring for these execution barriers to be changed or removed has to realize though that those barriers aren't arbitrary and 99% have a specific purpose behind them as has been discussed throughout this thread.

Also, everyone has to get away from the mentality that they have to "master" a game. Don't worry so much about being an expert as long as you're having fun. Play with friends and don't sweat it so much. If you don't like a particular game and you find the controls impossible, try another one.

 

[Xater]

If people can't even be bothered to learn the simplest moves like a Hadouken, they should go and play Smash Bros.

 

[TheExodu5]

BlazBlue.

Specials are one button. Timing windows are huge. Very easy fighter to learn, but hard to master.

 

[The Faceless Master]

These things are also taken into account when you consider their difficulty. The other aspects you mention can only work so far to balancing a move if you want to make moves that are unique enough to create different character playstyles. Should Ryu's Fireball and Zangief's SPD have the exact same difficulty to execute?

not EXTREEEEEEME enough.

imagine if Guile was exactly the same (any SF) except his SB was 236P and his FK was 214K.

 

[akilshohen]

Didn't simple mode in MvC1 have some kind of drawback to it?

 

[DryEyeRelief]

If people can't even be bothered to learn the simplest moves like a Hadouken, they should go and play Smash Bros.

Or maybe more fighting games should have a simple mode.

The problems that come up, like balance issues, won't be an issue for people interested in that.

 

[The Faceless Master]

....Tournaments are often decided due to mind games and fundamentals.

remember that time when that guy lost that Tekken Tournament to a Tenstring?

oh wait, it's happened more than once.

 

[AwRy108]

If you take away the depth of a fighting game's fighting engine what is left?

Naruto - Ultimate Ninja Storm.

 

[Kimosabae]

Tekken 6 says hi. God was the campaign mediocre.

I knew someone would bring up T6.

You did see the part where I mentioned budgets, right?

Tekken Force mode is a garbage, half-assed, throw-away after thought.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Naruto - Ultimate Ninja Storm.

but it's so pretty

 

[Hag]

BlazBlue.

Specials are one button. Timing windows are huge. Very easy fighter to learn, but hard to master.

This pretty much. With the challenges and tutorials of Continuum Shift its prolly the most easy f-game to get in right now. Also the netcode is good so it helps the player to getter better at.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Didn't simple mode in MvC1 have some kind of drawback to it?

most games' simple mode apparently have drawbacks
i heard that in Street Fighter Alpha the simple mode was the preferred way to play competitively though

 

[Kimosabae]

Simple Modes are bad, because not only are they not taken into account regarding balancing - they could potentially fragment the community.


I'm probably going to generate a lot of hate for this, but SSBM is currently the definition of this concept executed to near-perfection. It's precision controls, speed and inspired mechanics ensured Nintendo fans would (unwittingly) carve out a competitive niche.

Sakurai did some real R&D for the first game IIRC, and it shows.

Sirlin clearly looked to this series when drafting his proposals. Too bad Nintendo has a somewhat ironic and wholly retarded conception of competition, it seems.

 

[vocab]

I knew someone would bring up T6.

You did see the part where I mentioned budgets, right?

Tekken Force mode is a garbage, half-assed, throw-away after thought.

Still took up budget money, and time away from making the console version better. They put so much time into that, the training mode got fucked over and didn't even get a record option.

 

[Sir Garbageman]

This pretty much. With the challenges and tutorials of Continuum Shift its prolly the most easy f-game to get in right now. Also the netcode is good so it helps the player to getter better at.

Wouldn't go that far. Even beginner combos require some decent timing and canceling of dashes and special moves.

 

[Kusagari]

This pretty much. With the challenges and tutorials of Continuum Shift its prolly the most easy f-game to get in right now. Also the netcode is good so it helps the player to getter better at.

A fighting game beginner will never be able to pull of Blazblue's combos.

 

[TheSeks]

A fighting game beginner will never be able to pull of Blazblue's combos.

Indeed. While it's easy to get into and the tutorials are nice, it's hard to master.

Why should they accomodate me?

Because online modes in fighting games suck 9/10 of the time. Why should I torture myself playing Super Lag Tactics 4 when I could play the game with a local scene (like SRK) and learn the game "proper"ly from people. If you're playing fighting games with shitty netcode, you're only hurting yourself more than you're helping just for the sake of convince of finding human players. Having achievements for that mode just sucks in general because it's like "Oh, hey, check out our shitty netcode and be a worse player because we match make you with red bars! LOL!"

 

[Kimosabae]

Still took up budget money, and time away from making the console version better. They put so much time into that, the training mode got fucked over and didn't even get a record option.

Empty speculation. It's impossible to know how priorities were made and where resources are spent in development if you're not on the team.

SoulCalibur 2 had no record function in its training mode and that didn't have a single player mode as elaborate as Tekken Force.

Point I'm making; if provided the same budget, resources and focus, a single player mode that uses the same mechanics as the multiplayer would help fighting games a lot. Stop talking about Tekken 6. That game isn't an example of the point I'm making.

 

[DR2K]

Indeed. While it's easy to get into and the tutorials are nice, it's hard to master.



Because online modes in fighting games suck 9/10 of the time. Why should I torture myself playing Super Lag Tactics 4 when I could play the game with a local scene (like SRK) and learn the game "proper"ly from people. If you're playing fighting games with shitty netcode, you're only hurting yourself more than you're helping just for the sake of convince of finding human players. Having achievements for that mode just sucks in general because it's like "Oh, hey, check out our shitty netcode and be a worse player because we match make you with red bars! LOL!"

I've seen people hit 1 frame links online like it's nothing. I doubt SRK would have hosted an online tournament to send someone to EVO, if the game couldn't be played "properly" online. Of course the experience is variable for those with bad connections.

 

[ShinNL]

I've seen people hit 1 frame links online like it's nothing. I doubt SRK would have hosted an online tournament to send someone to EVO, if the game couldn't be played "properly" online. Of course the experience is variable for those with bad connections.

It's not really 1 frame if you plink though. I don't own the game, but I assume there would be a lot less C.Vipers doing cancels all the time in online play, even though they're very present in local tournament scenes.

 

[vocab]

A fighting game beginner will never be able to pull of Blazblue's combos.

some of the challenges in CS are even beyond a person who knows how to play fighting games.

 

[fatty]

Coming from someone where two of his favorite games are Street Fighter and Starcraft, where complex timing and reflexes are appreciated, I still welcome a change in this direction.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching the skill involved with crazy links/combos in Street Fighter or crazy battles in Starcraft where their APM is through the roof, but I always wonder what if, what if it became more of a purely mental game. Similar to speed chess. Where the strategy used ultimately relied on how your mind processed and reacted to the situation. That is what I want to see.

 

[GodfatherX]

Tekken had Eddie Gordo, that's the first easy "mode" I remember. There were cheap characters before but nowhere near that level

 

[luka]

Coming from someone where two of his favorite games are Street Fighter and Starcraft, where complex timing and reflexes are appreciated, I still welcome a change in this direction.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching the skill involved with crazy links/combos in Street Fighter or crazy battles in Starcraft where their APM is through the roof, but I always wonder what if, what if it became more of a purely mental game. Similar to speed chess. Where the strategy used ultimately relied on how your mind processed and reacted to the situation. That is what I want to see.

Sounds like you want puyo puyo.

 

[vocab]

Coming from someone where two of his favorite games are Street Fighter and Starcraft, where complex timing and reflexes are appreciated, I still welcome a change in this direction.

Don't get me wrong, I love watching the skill involved with crazy links/combos in Street Fighter or crazy battles in Starcraft where their APM is through the roof, but I always wonder what if, what if it became more of a purely mental game. Similar to speed chess. Where the strategy used ultimately relied on how your mind processed and reacted to the situation. That is what I want to see.

Not everyone knows how to play chess though. They still have to learn it, and even then, they will forget even the basics at first. If you want to execute a move in chess, you still need to know if your piece can even do that move or not, plus that move comes with a consequence. I fail to see how that's different than actually taking the time to learn a fighting game from square one. Chess doesn't involve reaction times, only speed chess does.

Speed chess is like a higher level of fighting game play, and it usually does come down to pure mental games. If you aren't on top of your mental state, you will fail to execute the combo you practiced for 8 hours a day, or the game winning move in chess.

 

[aktham]

Would be interesting to see SF move in this direction. Tournaments would boil down to mind games and fundamentals instead of execution.

No thanks. Sounds like you just want a win button. Any fighter is a fun at noob level with people mashing without knowing the game might be broken. Keep the tournament fighters the way they are.

You want easy mode execution? Play SSB

 

[Chauncy Talon]

Marvel vs Capcom 1 and Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter both have easy mode in there game.

 

[benny_a]

You want easy mode execution? Play SSB

But what if I want to play easy mode execution with Wolverine and the Hulk?

Not everyone knows how to play chess though. They still have to learn it, and even then, they will forget even the basics at first. If you want to execute a move in chess, you still need to know if your piece can even do that move or not, plus that move comes with a consequence.

I think the analogy is incorrect. The execution is moving a chess piece from one square to the next. The rules don't come into play, because in Street Fighter you can't do an illegal move no matter what you press. (Except the start button in a tournament, but that's meta.)

The when and why to do a move are the same. Why move your bishop there? Why do a Sonic Boom there?

Based on what I've learned about TvC by reading this thread and the other threads, people are not concerned with the people that play the simple mode in a tournament setting.

The budget and time spent on resources might very well be a bad argument, as a simple mode could make the game a bigger success than the fighting game genre previously was able to generate. Thereby giving the developers even more resources for the next.
It's all speculation at this point.

In regards to the tournament fighters it would be fun to see them to a side-track in the tournament where these simple-mode games are played. Maybe they prove to be competitive and fun to watch? Just like the MvC2 games where the best tier is excluded. The scene will find a way, IMO.

 

[AshMcCool]

Soooo, you get that the main intention for this feature is that your buddy, who never played the game before, can still compete with your trained skills? That is always the problem with fighting games: You win, and your friend is whinig about how you have probably played the game tons of hours before and how this is unfair to him(which it is).

 

[datruth29]

I never liked this idea. I think it intimidates more than it encourages. The only way they this could work is if were somehow made it fun and an intrinsic part of the gameplay experience - similar to how modern FPSs introduce mechanics to the player, piecemeal, via progression of the gameplay experience.

I'm not sure how it would intimidate a player. Sure, if you just throw them into the fire, they'll be overwhelmed, but if you do it properly, it can't be significant to the experience. For instance, I was still one of those gamers who thought the best way to play a fighting game was doing powerful moves or super long combo strings. Then I got Virtual Fighter 4 and played through it's tutorial set. Completely changed the way I play and see fighting games now. Since then, I have yet to play ANY fighting game that comes close to VF4's tutorial and training system.

 

[Skilletor]

Soooo, you get that the main intention for this feature is that your buddy, who never played the game before, can still compete with your trained skills? That is always the problem with fighting games: You win, and your friend is whinig about how you have probably played the game tons of hours before and how this is unfair to him(which it is).

How is it unfair, exactly, that a person who spends the time to get better dominates the person who does not?

I get that it sucks for the person who doesn't play, but unfair?

 

[Kimosabae]

I'm not sure how it would intimidate a player. Sure, if you just throw them into the fire, they'll be overwhelmed, but if you do it properly, it can't be significant to the experience. For instance, I was still one of those gamers who thought the best way to play a fighting game was doing powerful moves or super long combo strings. Then I got Virtual Fighter 4 and played through it's tutorial set. Completely changed the way I play and see fighting games now. Since then, I have yet to play ANY fighting game that comes close to VF4's tutorial and training system.

You've extrapolated your anecdote and handed it in as evidence for the strength of the principle. Bad move. I could easily do the same. My friends and I loved VF4 when we were simply dicking around with it. Once I started going through the tutorials and getting better at the game (which I found helpful, but boring) my friends had no choice but to go through the tutorials with their respective characters in an effort to keep up, or quit playing.

Guess which one they chose?


I even bought everyone of my friends a copy of the game, hoping this would give incentive to do this (game went down to <$20 super quick).



Despite VF's quality, that series' holds the least amount of mindshare and the lowest sales of the major fighting game franchises. That's evidence enough for me the elaborate, yet mundane tutorials don't amount to much when it comes to market expansion.

 

[Kimosabae]

*Sorry for the DP

The budget and time spent on resources might very well be a bad argument, as a simple mode could make the game a bigger success than the fighting game genre previously was able to generate. Thereby giving the developers even more resources for the next.
It's all speculation at this point.

In regards to the tournament fighters it would be fun to see them to a side-track in the tournament where these simple-mode games are played. Maybe they prove to be competitive and fun to watch? Just like the MvC2 games where the best tier is excluded. The scene will find a way, IMO.

You're right that this is all speculation and the budget concerns fall beneath that. But the main point to be made here: how long do you want developers to shoehorn these "Easy Modes" into their fighting games? Marvel 3 is not the first game to try this. It's been done. Again and again. Easy modes will not expand the market. That may sound like an argument from tradition, but Easy Modes simply don't address the core problem fighting games have when courting the mainstream - making competitive multiplayer compelling to them.

Competition in games is intrinsically alienating to a lot of people. How do you get them to want to embrace competitive values? Instilling confidence in their ability to actually play the game is a start.

Handing those people reigns to a steroidal, three-legged* horse doesn't do this, unless they're consistently in contention with other jockeys manning steroidal, three-legged horses. As a "three-legger", he knows he's being pandered to and may even fleetingly recognize this as insulting - but he may race for a while, anyway, because he finds racing steroidal, three-legged horses somewhat fun, despite his chances at winning against other, more dedicated jockeys on healthier horses, being realistically gimped. He might win every now and again, or come close to winning, but caveats get old if someone wants to get more out of their competitive outlet. How many of those racers do you think will opt for a new horse over finding a new sport to compete in?

*I know three-legged horses are useless at running. It's the principle that matters.

Point being, the only people that are attracted by Easy Modes are those with only a fleeting interest in fighting games, generally. You're not going to create many new fans, read: expand the market, with Easy Modes. Those people aren't guaranteed to buy the sequel to your new fighting game. IMO, it's a waste of time.

Making a fighting game easier to get into, generally, is how you create fans. Read: Smash series (Fuck Brawl). Many ways to explore this fighting game developers haven't tried for whatever reasons.

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

I really enjoyed the simple mode for Tatsunoko Vs Capcom (sp). I played that game into the ground.When I took it online I found that there was more depth to the game than I had found in my few combos and super moves. I was happy to know that, but I didn't continue to fight online.

I later bought SSF4 because I watched the opening CS at Quake con. I really suck at this game, and while I have been learning special move combos, I have not put nearly the time into this one as I did TvsC.

tldr: Simple is good.

 

[Razorwind]

SSBB had its own depth if people broke it down into all the technical details...Someone could really sink into the character sheets and go nuts.

But the game itself is designed to add random elements, and even if you turned it off, there is still tripping. The randomness makes it more "friendly" to casuals I feel.

There are two parts to fighting games enjoyment so far:

1) Training and execution of combos, links, FADC's, and other funny abbreviations. Some gamers really like this. The time and effort to train, and to see its results in tournaments, etc. (Guilty Gear has one of the most "DEPTH" in this field I seen, but I don't see everyone who claims they like the technical aspects of fighters clamoring to it)

2)Then there is the fun you get from playing with someone else. Strategies, tactics, taunting, trash talk, bragging, teaching, coaching, what not. The human factor. If technical knowledge and expertise were all there is to fighting games, we don't really need human opponents.

I believe each gamer has a mix of either side, 40/60, or 30/70 or 10/90, etc etc.

There are games designed for each "segment", as much as possible. (SF4 is a nice balance, 55/45 ish)

I guess some people are thinking what if there is a 0/100 game out there, or can we have more 10/90 games out there.

 

[Syril]

Making a fighting game easier to get into, generally, is how you create fans. Read: Smash series (Fuck Brawl). Many ways to explore this fighting game developers haven't tried for whatever reasons.

Are you just saying fuck Brawl randomly because you hate it or because you think that it does something different from 64/Melee that makes it harder to get into?

 

[Kimosabae]

Are you just saying fuck Brawl randomly because you hate it or because you think that it does something different from 64/Melee that makes it harder to get into?

I just hate Brawl

 

[fubarduck]

Soooo, you get that the main intention for this feature is that your buddy, who never played the game before, can still compete with your trained skills? That is always the problem with fighting games: You win, and your friend is whinig about how you have probably played the game tons of hours before and how this is unfair to him(which it is).

There is no way that someone who has never played a particular game or sport before can compete with your trained skills on said game or sport. This has nothing to do with fighting games, it's just common sense. No amount of "simple modes" will ever bridge that gap.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

I'd just like to point out that using the chess analogy as an example against a simple mode doesn't really work because you don't have to know a button combination to move a piece a certain way. In other words you don't have to press D,DF,F+SP to move a bishop all the way across the board and a different button combination to move them in the opposite direction or for a certain length. All you have to know is WHAT moves each piece has available to them and WHEN you should use them (sound familiar?).

 

[mannerbot]

I'd just like to point out that using the chess analogy as an example against a simple mode doesn't really work because you don't have to know a button combination to move a piece a certain way. In other words you don't have to press D,DF,F+SP to move a bishop all the way across the board and a different button combination to move them in the opposite direction or for a certain length. All you have to know is WHAT moves each piece has available to them and WHEN you should use them (sound familiar?).

Ok, so it's like playing basketball, only there's no hoop and you score a bucket every time you shoot. Sounds real fun.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Ok, so it's like playing basketball, only there's no hoop and you score a bucket every time you shoot. Sounds real fun.

What? :lol What is the "bucket" in this metaphor? A Hadouken? Do you sit around in a fighting game just having fun shooting hadoukens at the wall?

 

[mannerbot]

You don't have to practice or have talent or any of that mundane stuff. All you have to know is WHAT you get for a shot and WHEN you want to shoot (sound familiar?)

 

[benny_a]

You're right that this is all speculation and the budget concerns fall beneath that. But the main point to be made here: how long do you want developers to shoehorn these "Easy Modes" into their fighting games? Marvel 3 is not the first game to try this. It's been done. Again and again. Easy modes will not expand the market. That may sound like an argument from tradition, but Easy Modes simply don't address the core problem fighting games have when courting the mainstream - making competitive multiplayer compelling to them.

I have to say my tangent about the competitive scene isn't my main concern. I'm coming from the point of a person that doesn't play fighting games much. I like to just start a game and have some fun with a person that also doesn't play fighting games.
That's why I said earlier playing as Hulk and Wolverine is fun, because I like those characters.

I also think simple mode isn't automatically bad as some people in this thread think, because I will now buy MvC3 because of it, whereas before I knew the mode existed I would maybe see it at the next EVO at the most.
(I know, one data point doesn't show a trend.)

I will also get MK9, because those games are traditionally easier to pull combos off.
Forward, Forward, Triangle makes Superman do his eye-beam. Up, Up, Triangle makes him fly up and do his eye-beam.
That's the complexity that I feel comfortable with.
All I can do in SF2 HD Turbo is doing a series of jabs, kicks and sometimes a fireball.

So all in all, shoehorning is good enough for me as I'm more interested in the "fun shit happening on screen" when playing myself.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

You don't have to practice or have talent or any of that mundane stuff. All you have to know is WHAT you get for a shot and WHEN you want to shoot (sound familiar?)

The practice is for the WHAT and WHEN. That's what separates the casual player from the high level tournament players since at that level, all those moves are muscle memory. Any random kid can throw a fireball, but they won't know when to use it properly until they practice.

 

[projekt84]

The technical aspect is one of the factors that makes fighting games enticing and exciting.

If you see a video of your favorite player in a video game, they are typically doing something technical that is amazing.

I think what makes any game successful, is the concept of "Easy to learn, difficult to master"

Anyone can play SSB:M and have fun, but if you're so inclined to you can learn the advanced aspects of it and see how deep it really is. That makes it a good game. Sure the moves are just "point in a direction and press the attack button" but there's another world of L-Cancelling, wave dashing, directional influence (coincidentally most of the mechanics that people use in Melee are accidental on the developers' part).

Taking away the technical aspect of a fighting game isn't going to make it magically more popular. It needs to be fun to new players, but also offer depth to those who want to go further into it. That's also how you make new long-term fans.

 

[mannerbot]

The practice is for the WHAT and WHEN. That's what separates the casual player from the high level tournament players since at that level, all those moves are muscle memory. Any random kid can throw a fireball, but they won't know when to use it properly until they practice.

That's 100% true, but this is what separates video games from chess. It's not just outsmarting your opponent, it's about outplaying them too. Execution is a big part of why I enjoy fighting games at least; otherwise, why not just play a turn-based game?

 

[Bleepey]

I have never understood the appeal of high barrier to entry moves like THAWKS 720s. That shit is fucking hard, although i can do it consistently, whilst jumping, in training mode. In a match that shit is hard and offputting. HDR inputs FTW.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

That's 100% true, but this is what separates video games from chess. It's not just outsmarting your opponent, it's about outplaying them too. Execution is a big part of why I enjoy fighting games at least; otherwise, why not just play a turn-based game?

Because timing is still a factor. I understand the fun of execution (I enjoy it to an extent as well), but ultimately it's just the tip of the iceberg in becoming competitive yet one of the biggest first hurdles for newcomers.

EDIT: I don't have a problem shaving off that edge for people since it simultaneously makes it more fun for new people and makes it a little more fun for me when they can actually start to put up a fight.

 

[Metal B]

That's 100% true, but this is what separates video games from chess. It's not just outsmarting your opponent, it's about outplaying them too. Execution is a big part of why I enjoy fighting games at least; otherwise, why not just play a turn-based game?

There is NO diffrence betwenn video games and chess, there are all games. Outsmarting your opponent is outplaying them. A smart move will always win, thats why it is a smart move.

I love fighting games, because of the promise it makes. But i never head the passion and the time to learn it. That's why i love SSB and TvC. Here i can just play the point of fighting games, without have to first learning to actually move my character. There is more to fighting games then just execution and this is the actually fun part. The problem is that many players could be against a simple input, because they could feel betrayed of the time they spend learning to input moves. I believe not only could an better implication of noobs, help the genre to evolve, but also to make a lot more money to developer. Which means more fighting games.

 

[The Faceless Master]

execution isn't just about "difficulty", more inputs physically take longer to enter. that means a move with more inputs has to be completed earlier and/or faster to react to an opening in the opponent's defenses.