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[kai3345]

David Sirlin's proposal for SF4 included two versions of every character, one with classic controls and one with simplified controls based on this game. I thought that was an idea with merit.

this would have been a great idea, but in online it would have to be its own mode or something

 

[viewtiful_dru]

Simple controls does not = No depth.

I would welcome more fighters using the Smash Bros "direction + button" approach. It's a LOT more accessible. New IPs though, not shoehorned into Street Fighter or something.

I think the thread should have stopped here.

EO modes offer a false sense of accessibility. You can't shoehorn controls like that into a game that isn't designed for them.

If you want to make the game more accessible, then you teach the player the basics of gameplay. Simple controls can only go so far.

 

[bistromathics]

^ yea, that sounds right

 

[aaaaaa]

Ok ... now it got me curious !
What is so important about that select thing ?
Can anyone explain me what kinda of simplification happened here (besides the obvious 4 butons only)

Select turns on the simplified controls (back + punch for a sonic boom, etc.)

 

[N4Us]

EO mode was hard to play anyways, from what I remember you couldn't even attack while jumping, wtf.

 

[TheSeks]

Combo timing in SF4 is still a barrier to entry IMO. Makes the game feel more rigid and less like a flowing experience like previous games in the series. Combine this with the anemic training options in SF4 and it doesn't lend itself at all to what Ono claims he was aiming at in terms of making the series more friendly to the less experienced.

Also in attempting to dumb down the inputs, the predictive / softened commands has created a frustrating experience for me. When the inputs were pre-SF4 if a move didn't come out, it didn't come out, fine. Now I go a direction over and a move I don't want comes out.

This is fun for inexperienced players, but for me it's a massive pain in the balls. I don't have to deal with that sh*t in BB:CS.

Ah, so it isn't lag when I casually play fighting games/SSF4 with Razor on some nights. It's SSF4 shitily thinking I want to Last Dread Dust instead of EX Criminal Upper, FABULOUS CAPCOM! No wonder Razor/others think I'm "wake up" Ultra-ing at times.

(And links still fucking suck. 1-frame to do a move is ugh. Hate challenge mode because of that.)

If you want to make the game more accessible, then you teach the player the basics of gameplay. Simple controls can only go so far.

I think BB:CS's tutorial is pretty fine. But then it wants you to pull off combos doing the stuff it's teaching you and WHOOSH. I've never been one for pulling off long strings of combos in fighting games, so having to hit a dummy (which isn't bad, but) with 236236A->66(Dash cancel)236D->Modify with A to move the lesson on it annoying.

They should explain and video it/show a controller during the example for the inputs. Then you can go into practice mode after taking notes/noting what you're learning and try it out there at your leisure.

 

[farnham]

fighting games really should not be about entering the right button command but more about when to use what move etc. in that way i really liked soul calibur or virtua fighter

of course there is button commands involved but those games are more about hitting and blocking then about pushing the right buttons to make a fireball

 

[TheSeks]

fighting games really should not be about entering the right button command but more about when to use what move etc.

And it is, in high level play. Those "button commands" are turned into "muscle memory" the more you practice. It's not "newbie friendly" but it is the way fighting games since 1980-1990 have worked.

 

[aaaaaa]

Here's the part of Sirlin's rejected proposal I mentioned:

6 Controls
The game is designed with the PS3 and Xbox 360 controllers in mind. There are 4 main attack buttons, rather than the traditional 6, so that all the main attack buttons can fit on the face of the controller. Also, we offer players both a classic control mode (where you throw fireballs with the old-school “quarter circle” motion on the d-pad) and a new, simplified control mode that we’re calling “New Millennium” mode.

Many versions of Street Fighter have attempted to offer easier control schemes. They’ve always been either way too weird (CvS2 EO) or too weak (SF Alpha1 limited easy mode to level 1 supers, while regular mode could do much more powerful level 3 supers). The best attempt to date was SF Turbo Revival on GBA. In this game, the optional easy control mode replaces the qcf+p motion for fireballs with just forward+p. Dragon punch is down+p, and helicopter kick is back+k. This is very easy and intuitive.

In SF4, there are actually two versions of every character: Classic and New Millennium (or just “New”). New Ryu does uppercuts with down+p. Advanced users will actually prefer Classic Ryu because while standing, it’s difficult for New Ryu to perform a quick low punch without getting an uppercut. Classic Ryu offers more precise control, but New Ryu allows new players to have a chance without having to difficult input commands. This one feature greatly helps us expand the market to new players.

Note that in SF Turbo Revival, there is no reason to play Classic Guile over New Guile. New Guile can perform Sonic Booms and Flash Kicks without holding back for one second, and has no drawbacks to counter this advantage. In this game, characters with charge-up moves and 360 moves (such as Guile and Zangief) have a “special move gauge.” Classic Guile has to “charge-up” (hold back on the joystick) for 1 second before he can sonic boom. New Guile can Sonic Boom instantly at any time, but then he must wait, say, 1.3 seconds before he can do another special move. This and other balancing techniques will be used to keep the Classic and New characters competitive with each other in tournament play. New Millennium control mode is not intended as the usual throw-away mode, but instead is intended as an integral part of the game: tournament-legal and tournament-balanced.

 

[HK-47]

I honestly don't like it. As 236 214 41236 63214 412369874 632147896 actions are easy to do (okay maybe not the last two on a D-pad without shortcuts).

It's when playing charge characters where they're:

4(hold two seconds) 6(quick)4(quick)6(HOLD)PPP (like Guile's ultra in SSF4) that really do my head in and frustrate me.

As far as linking combos, I'll never be able to do that so it doesn't matter to me. I just wish they would stop adding ranked/online achievements to their games. So annoying, I don't give a shit about the online mode (as 99% of fighting game netcode sucks shit), so I shouldn't have to torture myself for the achievements there. (In before "LOL YOU SHOULDN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT ACHIEVEMENTS" achievement haters. Hatersgonnahate.gif)

Why should they accommodate you over people who care about online?

 

[grap3fruitman]

Why are the people most active in this topic the ones that know the least about fighting games?

 

[Tain]

I love the shit out of how every single great fighting game demands good decision making and good execution. I would never want fighting games that do this to have sequels that don't do this. It would ruin a lot of what I like about the genre.

That's all!

 

[LeMaximilian]

Has SF4 been mentioned yet? Input shortcuts were pretty huge.

 

[fallagin]

I don't really like the idea of simplified controls. Just this year for the first time ever, I got into fighting games, and even though I sucked at first it was alot of fun figuring out how to do the moves and trying to do the combos and all that stuff. I feel like the complexity of pulling off the moves adds a great deal to the fun of the games.

 

[Kimosabae]

Like Street 4's Challenge mode, but more user friendly... like explaining the timing and the shortcuts

That would be better, but it still isn't fun. Fighting games need some kind of campaign mode - something with a linear progression to a definitive endpoint. Unfortunately, something like that would probably more than double development costs were it to be done proper.

A big part of the reason FPS multiplayer tends to be popular is because of those game's campaign modes, I think. Not only does it leave the player wanting more, but the campaign ensures the player knows the fundamentals of the game before the player jumps into multiplayer.

It's still better than offering NOTHING at all.

Maybe.

Here's the part of Sirlin's rejected proposal I mentioned:

Another problem with this genre: A real lack of focus testing/R&D.

 

[REV 09]

SF4 was too hardcore for me. The frame windows in that game are way too small imo. Im sure people love it, but it was the main reason I traded it in w/I the first month. I would rather the difficulty be about when to use a move and not on executing those moves. I physically cannot pull off probably half the moves in SF4. Even in training mode. Don't want to feel like I need a stick either.

Really love mvc2 though and have already preordered mvc3. I always enjoyed the doa games too despite the hate that they get.

 

[hteng]

fighting games really should not be about entering the right button command but more about when to use what move etc. in that way i really liked soul calibur or virtua fighter

of course there is button commands involved but those games are more about hitting and blocking then about pushing the right buttons to make a fireball

even SC and VF has execution heavy characters, stuff like Akira's knee, or Setsuka as a whole utilizes just-frame moves (and Setsuka is top tier material if you can pull off her just-frames consistently, they are all insanely good), these are just like 1-frame links. so no, we shouldn't take out the execution of command in a fighting game.

 

[Monocle]

Tekken :lol

Sometimes I suspect people say patently ridiculous things just for attention. Hypothetically, I mean. In an abstract sense. Obliquely speaking, as it were.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

Has SF4 been mentioned yet? Input shortcuts were pretty huge.

Hugely detrimental.

SF4 input shortcuts is like lowering the grading curve for the rest of the class because you're (speaking of folks who couldn't learn the SF inputs after 25 years) a dumbass.

Really dislike the input shortcuts as it leads to the wrong god damned move coming out. Whif / Fail is preferable to something YOU DON'T AT ALL want coming out.

I was playing Threi, and trying to oil slide at him and Hokan kept grabbing air instead. :|

Please remove this shit Capcom or file it under Tard-ism so I don't need to select it and suffer for it. It's like auto aim in an FPS. DO NOT WANT!

 

[Solune]

SF4 was too hardcore for me. The frame windows in that game are way too small imo. Im sure people love it, but it was the main reason I traded it in w/I the first month. I would rather the difficulty be about when to use a move and not on executing those moves. I physically cannot pull off probably half the moves in SF4. Even in training mode. Don't want to feel like I need a stick either.

Really love mvc2 though and have already preordered mvc3. I always enjoyed the doa games too despite the hate that they get.

MvC2 is much more physically demanding than SFIV so I don't know how you can make the comparison. Combined with SFIVs lenient input system, it should be impossible to know how to play MvC2, and not be able to perform in SFIV. Unless by love MvC2 you mean you have no idea how to play it but enjoy it anyways.

 

[Fraeon]

I am by no means good at fighting games at all, but I see no fun in Easy Operation modes. Half the fun for me is learning how to play the game and using that knowledge to win.

Ummmm, if we forget how tacked on EO systems have been broken so far, isn't "learning how to play" more about learning the properties of each move rather than trying to build muscle memory for something you'll have to relearn anyway once the sequel rolls around?

 

[MarkMan]

SF4 is pretty n00b friendly IMO.

TEKKEN is n00b friendly too.


Once you try to take a game to the next level though, as with most fighting games that have a community worth anything, it takes it to a whole new experience/level.

Competitive Fighting games as a whole, IMHO, are NOT n00b/casual friendly.

 

[fubarduck]

The people arguing for simple controls sound like they want a game where you can move with the d-pad and each button automatically executes a devastating combo or special attack.

I have wonderful news for you: the genre you seek already exists!

When you take away how all the pieces move, you're no longer playing Chess.

 

[The Take Out Bandit]

SF4 is pretty n00b friendly IMO.

TEKKEN is n00b friendly too.


Once you try to take a game to the next level though, as with most fighting games that have a community worth anything, it takes it to a whole new experience/level.

Competitive Fighting games as a whole, IMHO, are NOT n00b/casual friendly.

Remember when folks tried harder and learned to play?

The danger (for new players) is the assumption this is common knowledge. When SF2 came out this stuff was all new and different. It took a long while to figure stuff out in the arcade, and it wasn't until EGM published moves lists that most folks went to the arcade to try out specifics.

The spinning pile driver was impossible to do back then.

It takes practice.

I just find it frustrating when developers lower the bar to attract new players.

To a degree I think companies like Arc System Works with Guilty Gear series skewed a little too far into the higher end of 2D fighting game mechanics and insane timing requirements. You really don't need to go that far, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

That's where you should draw the line as a development team. You're setting the bar so high that only the hard core can access and enjoy the game.

If SEGA dumbs down Virtua Fighter that's it. I'm out.

That said, folks just need to learn to take their licks and deal with it.

What strength!! But don't forget there are many guys like you all over the world.

 

[Vaporak]

If you take away the depth of a fighting game's fighting engine what is left?

If by "depth" you mean it's hard to translate mental actions to physical actions, then you end up with the current fighting game genre's tournament play. At the high end being able to do the moves is a given, and there's plenty more still to get good at.

 

[vocab]

That would be better, but it still isn't fun. Fighting games need some kind of campaign mode - something with a linear progression to a definitive endpoint. Unfortunately, something like that would probably more than double development costs were it to be done proper.

Tekken 6 says hi. God was the campaign mediocre.

 

[Rahxephon91]

Ummmm, if we forget how tacked on EO systems have been broken so far, isn't "learning how to play" more about learning the properties of each move rather than trying to build muscle memory for something you'll have to relearn anyway once the sequel rolls around?

Well I'm not sure how that goes against what I'm saying. I piked up a bunch of fighters this xmas as I've been trying to get into them. I've been mostly focusing on the King of Fighters games. As I try to learn the moves and create muscle memory I start to see how the move works and should probably be used. I don't think you can just sit there and commit to memory the inputs. If you do that I don't think you are really learning the game. So as I learn those moves and use them in the actual game, I also learn what their best use is.

I only have the PS2 version of CvS2 so I don't really know how it's easy operation mode works. I do have TvC and as of now only have wiimotes. Since the supers and really powerful moves are so easy the pull off, I feel little need to actually learn their correct inputs or how you should use them. It's not the same like in other games.

As for the sequel thing. Well, it seems to me that a lot of movesets don't change that much. The characters I've used in CvS2, KoF11,12 all seem to play similar to each version of themselves. So I'm not sure it's really problem. Obviously characters do change and different mechanics are introduced, but it dosen't seem to throw everything in whack. Then again, I'm no expert.

 

[vocab]

I only have the PS2 version of CvS2 so I don't really know how it's easy operation mode works.

PS2 version doesn't have EO. It has Roll cancels though!

 

[aktham]

Fighting games are not noob friendly (execution wise anyway). The learning phase of a new fighting game is the best part

 

[Striker]

The people arguing for simple controls sound like they want a game where you can move with the d-pad and each button automatically executes a devastating combo or special attack.

I have wonderful news for you: the genre you seek already exists!

When you take away how all the pieces move, you're no longer playing Chess.

SvR is highly annoying to play online against randoms. Hold down the run button and button mash the strike button. Not too bad with guys you know, however.

 

[Dead Man Typing]

The amount of fun people have with a fighting game is directly proportional to how even the fights are between two human players.

If having a simplified system means that a struggling player can keep up with the pack better, then it's a great thing. Tournament players are, quite rightly, always going to hate these kind of auto-input systems, but I dod think they're a good thing for people who don't have time to learn a game.

I personally would never use them, even though I'm pretty terrible at fighting games, but I think it's important that they're there. 1 button fatalities in Mortal Kombat are a more complicated matter for me, since they have nothing directly to do with game balancing.

 

[luka]

My 13 year old cousins wanted to play ssf4 with me, so I sat them down in front of ST and made them practice shoto moves for a few hours until they had the basic execution down and suddenly they could perform the basic movesets for like, 80% of the characters in any 2D fighting game ever. That's all it takes. If someone wants to play fighters and never played a fighter before, there is going to be a learning period.

If you want a game that your friends and family can pick up without wanting or having to learn, that's why games like Smash Bros and UFC exist.

 

[danmaku]

This reminds me of another discussion on Dustloop:

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?10241-Why-are-combos-so-hard/page4

read Digital Watches and Mike Z posts. They're talking about combos, but it's the same idea. Why combos / specials are hard to execute?

 

[Mistouze]

I'm fond of complicated inputs in my fighting games but still, I'm pretty happy to be able to fire up Brawl and have fun with my non gamer friends. Less frustrating time trying to figure out the execution, more fun times figuring out how to use those moves.

I remember Psychic Force on the PSX which used the same trick, always found this stuff quite elegant design wise.

Though, I'm still a "Jump D-> Stand C-> forward A-> qcf, hcb C" bitch at heart. There's really room for both style.

 

[Shouta]

I dunno, the simplifying of controls for a fighting game would kind of ruin it a bit. Execution is a part of the game at all levels and has been from the start, it's balanced around it. The game would need to be totally changed for it to work with easier controls. Also, if the controls were simplified and the rest of the game was left untouched (aside from minor balancing) I don't think it'd be as fun to play.

If I want to play a game with simple controls but indepth, I'll play a Gundam VS game.

 

[marathonfool]

I'm so frustrated trying to learn Tekken. I lose to people just mashing moves. I understand the entire mechanics of SF4 and finished all the challenges. The Tekken movelist is like 10 pages long. There's no way to learn this game by just playing it. I can't tell when I can or cannot punish. There's a crappy campaign that has nothing to do with 1v1 fighting and millions of dollars poured into nonsensical FMVs. Namco couldn't at least make a tutorial of some sort. No wonder Tekken is losing popularity. They've done nothing to teach newcomers how to play the game.

 

[LowParry]

Tekken 6 says hi. God was the campaign mediocre.

And into a very extreme wrong direction for the series. They should of just stuck with Tekken 4 scheme if they wanted to toss in some sort of plot/story. Keep the rest focused on the game itself.

I'm so frustrated trying to learn Tekken. I lose to people just mashing moves. I understand the entire mechanics of SF4 and finished all the challenges. The Tekken movelist is like 10 pages long. There's no way to learn this game by just playing it. I can't tell when I can or cannot punish. There's a crappy campaign that has nothing to do with 1v1 fighting and millions of dollars poured into nonsensical FMVs. Namco couldn't at least make a tutorial of some sort. No wonder Tekken is losing popularity. They've done nothing to teach newcomers how to play the game.

That's not true at all in the Asian/Eastern markets. Western I agree with losing its popularity. But that may change with TTT2.

 

[valeo]

The only game that has killed me is Street Fighter 4. I honestly played 50 games online and only won 2 :lol

I never really played any SF's beforehand though - only Soul Calibur/Blade, Mortal Kombat and a bit of Tekken

Street Fighter is kind of like the Starcraft of fighting games - amazing for the people who are good, but a steep as hell learning curve for people who aren't. I don't mind that, though. There aren't many highly competitive games left anymore.

 

[viewtiful_dru]

Tekken 6 says hi. God was the campaign mediocre.

WHOOSH

 

[hteng]

I'm so frustrated trying to learn Tekken. I lose to people just mashing moves. I understand the entire mechanics of SF4 and finished all the challenges. The Tekken movelist is like 10 pages long. There's no way to learn this game by just playing it. I can't tell when I can or cannot punish. There's a crappy campaign that has nothing to do with 1v1 fighting and millions of dollars poured into nonsensical FMVs. Namco couldn't at least make a tutorial of some sort. No wonder Tekken is losing popularity. They've done nothing to teach newcomers how to play the game.

the reason some characters have so many moves are due to their stances, each stance has minimum 2 or 3 variations, you don't really need to use all. For practicality you only really need at most 10 useful moves. And the only way to find this out is to watch other pros play or visit the forums like zaibatsu.

in general, what you need to find are safe pokes, good mids, one good tracking move, some launchers (hop kick), good lows, and most importantly, knowing your "bound/bind" moves.

also note that some moves are universal, like your typical hop kick, one-two combo, low sweep..etc.

the most difficult thing to learn about tekken (and any other 3D fighters) are the frames, which lets you know what moves are safe/unsafe and what moves are faster/slower.

having said that, you'll need to memorize some attack strings utilized by your opponents (especially cheap lows and breaking throws).

 

[140.85]

Would be interesting to see SF move in this direction. Tournaments would boil down to mind games and fundamentals instead of execution.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

If having a simplified system means that a struggling player can keep up with the pack better, then it's a great thing. Tournament players are, quite rightly, always going to hate these kind of auto-input systems, but I dod think they're a good thing for people who don't have time to learn a game.

"keeping up with the pack" requires more than just being able to perform moves. If you don't have time for execution, you won't have time for the rest.

 

[Oichi]

Would be interesting to see SF move in this direction. Tournaments would boil down to mind games and fundamentals instead of execution.

....Tournaments are often decided due to mind games and fundamentals.

 

[KidA Seven]

I don't think there should be easier inputs for moves. If a beginner is playing a beginner, those combos won't come into play at all. Beginners don't really see a need for them or rather don't know anything like that existed until they face someone that is superior to them online.

What the game needs for online play is a better matchmaking system where it pits players in their rightful place. A system like Halo where it assigns you a number rank. SSF4 has PP and BP but that system sucks. It is too easy to move back and forth and the scale isn't as big as Halo 2 or 3's scale.

A bonus would be SF4's trial system but actually explain what FADC, how long to charge, etc... Not only that but have a pop up in between each trial and explain that combos aren't the be all end all to becoming better.

For example, the pop up would have:

• Spacing is very important to becoming better. Know the range in which you can surprise enemies with a special or normal move. A little distance can create an illusion of safety for the enemy.
• Jumping isn't always good. You must know when to jump because the enemy can be inviting your jump in so they can punish it.
• Normals are important. A normal can stop an enemy from jumping in on you, closing in on you, and can create opportunities on block for you to pressure them. Note how fast some are and choose which is better for certain situations.

Things like that. Not only that, but videos from the world's best players doing crazy ass shit during a tournament from previous iterations of that game could inspire newer players. A better file sharing can go a long way with the immersion of a beginner wanting to get into the fgc.

 

[B-Genius]

BlazBlue: CS tells you stuff from the very basics(talking about the HUD, how to walk back and forth, jump, etc) and quickly has you doing cancels and chaining moves, telling you 3C is a universal sweep, useful stuff. The Challenges here atleast let you watch a replay of what it looks like.

I came in here to mention BB:CS. It may not have a noob-friendly system, but the tutorial and everything are so thorough. Probably the best I've seen a fighting game (and its basic mechanics) explained inside an actual fighting game.

The fact that it's so niche and quite complicated at an advanced level is the contrast. But for getting into 'proper' fighting games, I'd say it's a good place to start.

 

[ShinNL]

Would be interesting to see SF move in this direction. Tournaments would boil down to mind games and fundamentals instead of execution.

....Tournaments are often decided due to mind games and fundamentals.

What are you guys talking about? One of the most famous fighting game footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cW2nMf1gk

And you want to get rid of the "execution" part? You guys are nuts.

 

[BloodySinner]

With the Dead or Alive games once you learn the counter system you can pretty much master the game... so like two hours of playing?

Tekken doesn't really take much skill but it's still more difficult to master than DOA which makes Itagaki cry.

You're not serious.

 

[KidA Seven]

What are you guys talking about? One of the most famous fighting game footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cW2nMf1gk

And you want to get rid of the "execution" part? You guys are nuts.

I don't think Oichi meant getting rid of execution. He was saying that even though there is high execution a lot of the top matches are decided by fundamentals, which is true. I think the other dude was saying that you have to have one or the other, or that having both takes away the fundamentals which is not true.

 

[ShinNL]

I don't think Oichi meant getting rid of execution. He was saying that even though there is high execution a lot of the top matches are decided by fundamentals, which is true. I think the other dude was saying that you have to have one or the other, or that having both takes away the fundamentals which is not true.

I'd argue that all fundamentals besides footsies are execution. Which is why people refer to things like bread & butter combo.

 

[Fersis]

A game designed from the ground up to be played with one or two buttons its fine to me.
SFIV added depth by raising the execution barrier i think.
You can have a good time playing like a scrub and doing Ultras,Supers,FADCs but if you want to play in a higher level you need to practice and i dont think its a bad idea.
Linking,One frames and stuff like that are SFIV depth.
Its like a 'meta game' for high level players.

When you take away how all the pieces move, you're no longer playing Chess.

Agreed. (Love the quote)

tl;dr: One button systems are fine if the game is designed with that in mind.