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[Vincent Grayson]

It's funny how this move has made everyone an expert on Blizzard's business costs.

It's not going to happen guys. WoW has moved on from those days, and that's just life.

I love the concept of private servers, and used to play on them a lot when I wasn't interested in paying for a sub, or found servers with interesting rulesets. But at the end of the day, you should just assume anything like this is on borrowed time, and accept it for what it is while it lasts.

This is hardly the end of private servers.

 

[Zebei]

As someone with no WoW experience, about how long of a run is this, approximately?

Spoiler

RIP ;_;7

 

[HowZatOZ]

Because if it wasn't 100% free, 150k people wouldn't even come close to playing there.

Considering the populations of some of the other private servers where you do have to pay, I'd say at least half are playing because it's the only way to play vanilla. Hell I'd go with 100% even because those who are playing vanilla are playing because it's vanilla. There are better free MMOs out there if that's all people care about.

 

[TheYanger]

My guess is, around 50% would pay to play on legacy servers. Which is 75k, which is a lot. Enough to tap into that market, imo. Even if it's only 50k, that's still a lot of people, many of whom probably aren't subbed now, but would sub for an official legacy server without fear of takedowns

A) Your guess means literally nothing.
B) People assume it's as simple as 'put up server' - They have to have QA and CS for the server still, which are now splintered from the main service and have to have extra training specific to that server. Do they fix bugs? They're now maintaining a seperate codebase for this other version of the game. Users can't use the same install of the game, because too much is different from the retail release (EQ vanilla servers aren't authentic to vanilla in any way shape or form for this reason, all spells use modern spell versions, graphics, interface, etc...Everything has to be handled serverside to try and make it like vanilla). If they want battle.net integration, same thing, they basically have to rework the game to put that sort of shit in.

A vanilla server would fracture the userbase just for a small subset of people to pay them a sub again. There is literally no incentive for them to do it right now. Someday maybe, like EverQuest has a lot less players and the nostalgia is a significant portion of their income, so they pander to it (Also, the game is F2P and progression/vanilla server users HAVE to have premium subs, so it's actually a selling point for them). Bare minimum if Blizz did something like this, I bet they'd still require you to keep up on all of the expansions just to make sure they're still getting those box sales.

Logistics are a bitch and people don't like to consider them when they whine about this kind of stuff. It's a lot different for a little fan upstart than it is for an actual business, the expectations of the quality of service are significantly higher, and they can't just skip on that stuff or they risk damaging their brand.

Considering the populations of some of the other private servers where you do have to pay, I'd say at least half are playing because it's the only way to play vanilla. Hell I'd go with 109% even because those who are playing vanilla are playing because it's vanilla. There are better free MMOs out there if that's all people care about.

Opinions, how do they work. I would rather play Vanilla wow than any F2P MMO out there without paying money. So would 150k other people, obviously. But I bet less than 25% would pay 15 bucks a month to do so.

 

[Wickerbasket]

You seem to be under the illusion still that Nostalrius isn't Vanilla WoW but some other version of WoW that they made and Blizzard has nothing to do with it which is completely wrong. It is Blizzard's intellectual property and product they can do whatever they want with it.

I was under the impression that Nostalrius is just server side script/code that their volunteer developers made.

Isn't all the intellectual property on the client side? If that's the case, if I own the original WoW disk, why can't I play it?

I know there's probably all sorts of legal reasons, but it doesn't seem morally wrong to me.

 

[Gaz_RB]

Just because you don't like the latest patch doesn't justify piracy. Just because McDonalds stops selling the McRib doesn't mean you just bring your own ingredients, go into their kitchen, and make one yourself.

What a shitty metaphor lol. Was this purposeful?

 

[Effect]

How can you pirate something that is not available for purchase? And Blizzard already said they are not going to make older servers so the only way to play is to "pirate". They need to think like Jagex and give the people what they want.

Such a missed opportunity. It's something that can be done. SOE now Daybreak eventually started doing progression servers. New servers that mirror the state of Everquest 1 when it first launched in terms of content and features. Then overtime newer and newer expansions would be unlocked either when something was beat at first time but I think they decided to do it on a timer. I remember people loving it. People would return to the game explicitly for those servers or leave their normal server to go back to a simpler time. Once things got to far they'd stop playing or go back to their regular server until a new one was opened up. They were successful enough that they started doing them with Everquest 2.

Blizzards refusal to offer this is something I don't understand. There is a market for this. That's been proven. It's not just about the content but the nature of the content and lack of certain features can significantly change how the game is played. It's not a bad thing.

I would love to play on a WoW server that just had vanilla WoW. I never got to experience what that was like. I think I started playing after Burning Crusade had cam out.

 

[half a moon]

As someone with no WoW experience, about how long of a run is this, approximately?

Spoiler

RIP ;_;7

20 minutes?

 

[TheYanger]

I was under the impression that Nostalrius is just server side script/code that their volunteer developers made.

Isn't all the intellectual property on the client side? If that's the case, if I own the original WoW disk, why can't I play it?

I know there's probably all sorts of legal reasons, but it doesn't seem morally wrong to me.

You CAN play it. They can't run it. There's a difference.

Such a missed opportunity. It's something that can be done. SOE now Daybreak eventually started doing progression servers. New servers that mirror the state of Everquest 1 when it first launched in terms of content and features. Then overtime newer and newer expansions would be unlocked either when something was beat at first time but I think they decided to do it on a timer. I remember people loving it. People would return to the game explicitly for those servers or leave their normal server to go back to a simpler time. Once things got to far they'd stop playing or go back to their regular server until a new one was opened up. They were successful enough that they started doing them with Everquest 2.

Blizzards refusal to do this is something I don't understand. There is a market for this. It's not just about the content but the nature of the content and lack of certain features can significantly change how the game is played. It's not a bad thing.

EQ progression servers are SOOOOOOOO far from the 1999 experience it's laughable. For all the reasons I elucidated above.

The most recent ones tried to be hardcore like it used to be and people actually were taken aback by how punishing it was compared to the romp-style servers they'd been releasing every other time they did a progression server. And it's still not accurate. not even close.

 

[Corpekata]

And how many of those 150k would even play if it wasn't free? Not as many as some people around here like to believe I'd think.

Some would undoubtedly stop but there would also be an uptick in players willing to play it if it was offered in an official capacity.

Runescape Oldschool, which is an official product, currently has 40k people online compared to 70k online in normal Runescape. And that clearly would not be nearly as popular as WoW would be.

 

[Acerac]

As someone with no WoW experience, about how long of a run is this, approximately?

Spoiler

RIP ;_;7

Bit under half an hour, perhaps? The impressive part was how long the line stretched.

 

[Maztorre]

I see pragmatism still continues to evade many minds on GAF. It was proven over a decade ago that unofficial servers, fan translations, etc are more of a service issue than some criminal element trying to fuck over developers. It does Blizzard no good to go after people who are likely among the most hardcore fans of WoW, just like it hasn't done many other publishers much good for their rep when they take hostile or punitive measures towards enthusiast users.

If they instead offered some version of what these people are trying to play (a vanilla-like WoW experience, or just a very positive WoW experience in general?) they would most likely gain 150k+ new subs and a shitload of positive PR and goodwill.

 

[-Horizon-]

That's incredible. I wonder if anyone is recording this as it all goes down.

 

[Wickerbasket]

You CAN play it. They can't run it. There's a difference.

Yeah I know, but I don't really understand why. If they've developed their own server code, then what is it they're infringing on?

 

[WaterAstro]

Blizzard should send a C&D to themselves for turning WoW into utter shit.

 

[Nere]

I was under the impression that Nostalrius is just server side script/code that their volunteer developers made.

Isn't all the intellectual property on the client side? If that's the case, if I own the original WoW disk, why can't I play it?

I know there's probably all sorts of legal reasons, but it doesn't seem morally wrong to me.

By buying it you get the right to play it not distribute it to other players. Just because you buy a movie in a blu ray doesn't give you the right to copy the disk and give it to anyone who wants it, even if it is for free.

 

[RionaaM]

This is no different than playing roms of games that are extremely expensive and/or very hard to get. What are you supposed to do? Sit and twiddle your thumbs? If you give your customers options they wont have to resort to illegally obtaining them.

Actually, it's not even as morally grey as that. You can't pay for an official vanilla server even if you want, so there's absolutely no other choice here than playing on private servers.

 

[TheDangerMan]

And the live ones have 5 million active users your point is?

5.5M last Nov, and constantly declining (10M Q4 2014, 7.1 Q1 2015, 5.6 Q2 2015, 5.5 Q3 2015), trending badly enough in fact Blizzard announced that they would no longer be giving sub numbers...

I'd be fairly surprised if they still had 5M active (even with the dubious way they count actives from certain regions).

I've never played a private server, and don't think I ever will. That said the only way I can ever see myself resubbing would be if they added legacy servers, and they never will. I can't blame people who play on them.

 

[sgjackson]

stuff

i'd definitely hazard that you're right and they've done a cost/benefit analysis of running vanilla servers and decided it wasn't worth it, but the more traction stories like this get with lapsed fans the more they'll reconsider it.

 

[Zebei]

20 minutes?

Bit under half an hour, perhaps? The impressive part was how long the line stretched.

Thank you kindly. I was wondering whether this was some, map-wide pilgrimage or more of a somber parade down the street.

 

[TheYanger]

Yeah I know, but I don't really understand why. If they've developed their own server code, then what is it they're infringing on?

They're offering a competing service to WoW using wow's own assets. The example I used in the other thread was if you made your own mcdonalds and just didn't charge for anything because you wanted it as a hobby. That wouldn't fly either. It's not about the physical product, it's about the service.

Not sure how much it would stand up in court, afaik it's never been truly tested, but it kind of doesn't matter since tehse guys aren't going to fight it (nobody is since the odds of winning seem pretty slim).

 

[Wickerbasket]

By buying it you get the right to play it not distribute it to other players. Just because you buy a movie in a blu ray doesn't give you the right to copy the disk and give it to anyone who wants it, even if it is for free.

Right, but they weren't doing that, were they? I was under the impression that they just ran servers for the classic 1.12 WoW client.

I just don't really understand the legality of running the server code if they're not using any blizzard assets.

 

[Acerac]

Opinions, how do they work. I would rather play Vanilla wow than any F2P MMO out there without paying money. So would 150k other people, obviously. But I bet less than 25% would pay 15 bucks a month to do so.

I can guarantee there are many others who either were afraid to sign up for the server because it wasn't official or who just genuinely didn't know.

The speculation can easily go both ways, an official vanilla server may have half the population of Nostalrius, or maybe triple. While we're waiting on Blizzard to know for sure, I can only speak for myself when I'd say I'd happily pay a sub for Vanilla.

 

[Nere]

Right, but they weren't doing that, were they? I was under the impression that they just ran servers for the classic 1.12 WoW client.

I just don't really understand the legality of running the server code if they're not using any blizzard assets.

Yeah but who legally owns the intellectual right for WoW across all it's expansions, iterations and patches? Blizzard developed it, it is theirs by right.

 

[Foffy]

Just because you don't like the latest patch doesn't justify piracy. Just because McDonalds stops selling the McRib doesn't mean you just bring your own ingredients, go into their kitchen, and make one yourself.

This is by far the most bat-shittingly method of reason I have seen today.

And I've argued with "money = happiness" people.

 

[TheYanger]

I can guarantee there are many others who either were afraid to sign up for the server because it wasn't official or who just genuinely didn't know.

The speculation can easily go both ways, an official vanilla server may have half the population of Nostalrius, or maybe triple. While we're waiting on Blizzard to know for sure, I can only speak for myself when I'd say I'd happily pay a sub for Vanilla.

I would happily dick around on a vanilla server for my sub as well, but that still doesn't mean anything. They have to invest significantly more effort, time, resources, to earn your 15 dollars than they do for the 5 million people already playing the real game. If they had any belief it was going to be a worthwhile venture, they would go for it.

For all we know they're actually going to do somethingl ike that and that's why they're cracking down, it wouldn't totally shock me, but it's not as simple as people seem to think.

 

[old manatee]

Try paying and you won't need to suicide. Not sure why such notoriety is given to these software pirates.

How dare these gamers have fun in a way that isn't sanctioned by a large corporation!

 

[Lord of Ostia]

A) Your guess means literally nothing.
B) People assume it's as simple as 'put up server' - They have to have QA and CS for the server still, which are now splintered from the main service and have to have extra training specific to that server. Do they fix bugs? They're now maintaining a seperate codebase for this other version of the game. Users can't use the same install of the game, because too much is different from the retail release (EQ vanilla servers aren't authentic to vanilla in any way shape or form for this reason, all spells use modern spell versions, graphics, interface, etc...Everything has to be handled serverside to try and make it like vanilla). If they want battle.net integration, same thing, they basically have to rework the game to put that sort of shit in.

A vanilla server would fracture the userbase just for a small subset of people to pay them a sub again. There is literally no incentive for them to do it right now. Someday maybe, like EverQuest has a lot less players and the nostalgia is a significant portion of their income, so they pander to it (Also, the game is F2P and progression/vanilla server users HAVE to have premium subs, so it's actually a selling point for them). Bare minimum if Blizz did something like this, I bet they'd still require you to keep up on all of the expansions just to make sure they're still getting those box sales.

Logistics are a bitch and people don't like to consider them when they whine about this kind of stuff. It's a lot different for a little fan upstart than it is for an actual business, the expectations of the quality of service are significantly higher, and they can't just skip on that stuff or they risk damaging their brand.



Opinions, how do they work. I would rather play Vanilla wow than any F2P MMO out there without paying money. So would 150k other people, obviously. But I bet less than 25% would pay 15 bucks a month to do so.

You have to factor in the people who don't play on the current private servers but would play on an official legacy server as well. Of course it's impossible to know how many of those people there are, but I'd assume at least a fair amount. Also, I never claimed it was as easy as just slapping something up there. Of course it requires time and investment of resources. The benefit is that it provides additional content for people who have a sub so that they might continue to sub, and encourages people nostalgic for the old version of WoW to resub when they would otherwise have no interest. No one is saying that implementing legacy servers is 'easy'; people are simply suggesting that there is a demand for something like this, and that Blizzard should invest in official legacy servers to meet this demand. There is absolutely no way that the investment required for a legacy server is anything close to the cost of an expansion.

Besides, having legacy servers is not a foreign concept for long running MMOs. Both EQ and Runescape have tapped into the nostalgia market for both of their games and seen success with it. Why shouldn't Blizzard follow that trend if there is money to be made? Hell, allow for character re classing and re customization and such like they do with the main game, and you have another additional revenue stream along with securing new subs and keeping other players subbed. That is why people are acting like this is a no-brainer, not because it requires no investment. Of course it requires investment of time and resources; I'm simply arguing that the investment is worth it.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

You have to factor in the people who don't play on the current private servers but would play on an official legacy server as well. Of course it's impossible to know how many of those people there are, but I'd assume at least a fair amount. Also, I never claimed it was as easy as just slapping something up there. Of course it requires time and investment of resources. The benefit is that it provides additional content for people who have a sub so that they might continue to sub, and encourages people nostalgic for the old version of WoW to resub when they would otherwise have no interest. No one is saying that implementing legacy servers is 'easy'; people are simply suggesting that there is a demand for something like this, and that Blizzard should invest in official legacy servers to meet this demand. There is absolutely no way that the investment required for a legacy server is anything close to the cost of an expansion.

Besides, having legacy servers is not a foreign concept for long running MMOs. Both EQ and Runescape have tapped into the nostalgia market for both of their games and seen success with it. Why shouldn't Blizzard follow that trend if there is money to be made? Hell, allow for character re classing and re customization and such like they do with the main game, and you have another additional revenue stream along with securing new subs and keeping other players subbed. That is why people are acting like this is a no-brainer, not because it requires no investment. Of course it requires investment of time and resources; I'm simply arguing that the investment is worth it.

The thing is, you're not offering anything new that Blizzard doesn't already know. They can see the forum posts, they can look at how many people are playing on these generally quite public "private servers".

If they found the argument compelling and the cost/benefit to be worth it, they wouldn't be coming out so adamantly against it.

We're free to disagree, but I don't see any reason to think they haven't already considered every argument people have leveled at this.

 

[Killer Queen]

This thread made me lol. Such an odd thing to do.

 

[TheDangerMan]

I would happily dick around on a vanilla server for my sub as well, but that still doesn't mean anything. They have to invest significantly more effort, time, resources, to earn your 15 dollars than they do for the 5 million people already playing the real game. If they had any belief it was going to be a worthwhile venture, they would go for it.

For all we know they're actually going to do somethingl ike that and that's why they're cracking down, it wouldn't totally shock me, but it's not as simple as people seem to think.

I've seen this statement several times recently, and assume its true, but coming from a place of total ignorance on the matter I have a question.

How is it a process simple enough that a small team of enthusiasts are able to pull it off without charging for it, but not a simple process for Blizzard as well? Is it because it would be more complicated to tie it into their existing infrastructure? I know Blizzard has indicated the same as you have, that its more complicated than we realize, but I have no knowledge about these kinds of things.

 

[MUnited83]

Try paying and you won't need to suicide. Not sure why such notoriety is given to these software pirates.

Can't pay for what's not being sold.

 

[Camwi]

Just because you don't like the latest patch doesn't justify piracy. Just because McDonalds stops selling the McRib doesn't mean you just bring your own ingredients, go into their kitchen, and make one yourself.

Tag fishing?

 

[Ostinatto]

I feel like some people here hates private server games

 

[Lord of Ostia]

The thing is, you're not offering anything new that Blizzard doesn't already know. They can see the forum posts, they can look at how many people are playing on these generally quite public "private servers".

If they found the argument compelling and the cost/benefit to be worth it, they wouldn't be coming out so adamantly against it.

We're free to disagree, but I don't see any reason to think they haven't already considered every argument people have leveled at this.

The people working at Blizzard are also human beings. Maybe they have considered all these factors, but see legacy servers as a failure of the current game and expansions and don't want to admit that failure by letting people play an older, more beloved version of the game. Personally, I think that might be part of it, in which case they are leaving money on the table. Honestly though, you are right in the sense that they are aware people want this and have kept choosing to do nothing. That said, as someone who would like to see an official option from Blizzard to play vanilla or BC WoW, it doesn't benefit me any to stop asking for it.

 

[Effect]

You CAN play it. They can't run it. There's a difference.


EQ progression servers are SOOOOOOOO far from the 1999 experience it's laughable. For all the reasons I elucidated above.

The most recent ones tried to be hardcore like it used to be and people actually were taken aback by how punishing it was compared to the romp-style servers they'd been releasing every other time they did a progression server. And it's still not accurate. not even close.

Thinking more about it you're right. They aren't exactly the same but I think close enough for some. Go to far and you easily bring up a lot of the bad memories about how bad things were. Something like the hell levels should never come back and I don't think they did. No one wants to experience that BS again.

 

[la_briola]

I've seen this statement several times recently, and assume its true, but coming from a place of total ignorance on the matter I have a question.

How is it a process simple enough that a small team of pirates are able to pull it off without charging for it, but not a simple process for Blizzard as well? Is it because it would be more complicated to tie it into their existing infrastructure? I know Blizzard has indicated the same as you have, that its more complicated than we realize, but I have no knowledge about these kinds of things.

Stop calling them pirates. They are emulating a Vanilla WoW server.
Its a fork of cmangos (which is a fork of mangos), an open source server software.

 

[Tenebrous]

It's quite heartwarming to see that sort of old school community involvement. Absolutely no chance of seeing something like that on WoW-proper.

 

[la_briola]

I feel like some people here hates private server games

They probably also hate MAME/ScummVM/DOSBOX/console emulators/etc.

 

[Wickerbasket]

Yeah but who legally owns the intellectual right for WoW across all it's expansions, iterations and patches? Blizzard developed it, it is theirs by right.

Right, but Nostalrius isn't actually doing anything with any of that stuff, they're just running self developed server code. It's the users who connect with their WoW clients that are using Blizzard's IP, and without the client, the server is just a bunch of nonsensical script and code that does nothing.

I mean, it's all moot anyway, because anyone would be stupid to go to court against blizzard so we'll never find out what the courts would think.

 

[MUnited83]

Just because you don't like the latest patch doesn't justify piracy. Just because McDonalds stops selling the McRib doesn't mean you just bring your own ingredients, go into their kitchen, and make one yourself.

It's more like you started to use the same ingredients at home and made a McRib yourself.

 

[Regiruler]

What are the alliance members doing?

 

[Velcro Fly]

It sucks, but there are tons of others who played the game and had their way of play patched over or nerfed or changed. I don't really feel too bad for them.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

The people working at Blizzard are also human beings. Maybe they have considered all these factors, but see legacy servers as a failure of the current game and expansions and don't want to admit that failure by letting people play an older, more beloved version of the game. Personally, I think that might be part of it, in which case they are leaving money on the table. Honestly though, you are right in the sense that they are aware people want this and have kept choosing to do nothing. That said, as someone who would like to see an official option from Blizzard to play vanilla or BC WoW, it doesn't benefit me any to stop asking for it.

Oh, that's almost certainly a factor. I think they might have even said as much at one point. And I understand that. If I were operating an MMO, I probably wouldn't want to do it either. The world is what it is, and time has moved on from the vanilla days, so they are in the past.

I get why some people enjoy it, but it also seems totally reasonable to me for Blizzard to say "Nah, we're not doing that". I don't know what their reasoning is for killing this particular server at this particular time, but I always treated private servers as a temporary thing, and assumed next time I went to log in, they might be gone.

 

[TheDangerMan]

Stop calling them pirates. They are emulating a Vanilla WoW server.
Its a fork of cmangos (which is a fork of mangos), an open source server software.

Alright, a small team of enthusiasts then.

 

[Wickerbasket]

It's more like you started to use the same ingredients at home and made a McRib yourself.

Actually, it's like you reverse engineered the recipe so that it was close enough, shared it online so people could make their own and then McDonald's threaten's to sue you.

Seriously though, analogies are terrible. They're always terrible.

 

[BabyFaceKillah]

Suicide ain't cool brehs

 

[la_briola]

Alright, a small team of enthusiasts then.

They are quite talented and dedicated. Just take a look at their Clustering demo video. This was planned for the future.

You can read more here.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Oh, that's almost certainly a factor. I think they might have even said as much at one point. And I understand that. If I were operating an MMO, I probably wouldn't want to do it either. The world is what it is, and time has moved on from the vanilla days, so they are in the past.

I get why some people enjoy it, but it also seems totally reasonable to me for Blizzard to say "Nah, we're not doing that". I don't know what their reasoning is for killing this particular server at this particular time, but I always treated private servers as a temporary thing, and assumed next time I went to log in, they might be gone.

Then you can definitely see why the player base might be angered by that attitude, when they are repeatedly expressing their displeasure with the current product and offering a solution they would be willing to pay for, that Blizzard has no intention of implementing because of their pride. Of course, another way to address the needs of the player base would be to provide a significantly better expansion experience with Legion, but hopes are low for that outcome and I can totally understand why. Also, even if Legion is great, the desire for Vanilla or BC WoW will still be there; that was inarguably the game's peak. It seems like the wiser choice would be to work hard on making the next expansion worthwhile, and also invest in the legacy servers to garner some goodwill and new subs. It comes off as petty to the people who have been supporting and playing WoW for over a decade when pride is the major obstacle.

 

[TheYanger]

http://playtbc.com/p/register/

Let's move on to the better era of wow anyway guys.