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[Doomtrain]

I found it utterly bizarre when the producer of FFXVI said that they made the game a straight-up action game on the grounds that turn-based RPG's didn't sell. Traditional FF games routinely outsell character action games like Devil May Cry, and Square's own mega-successful FFXIV is, although not turn-based, inarguably an RPG (and ditto for the FFVII remakes). If developers want to go in an action-based direction because that's what they genuinely feel like creating, then awesome. I respect that even if I don't personally enjoy the results (i.e. the abominable dumpster fire that is FFXVI). But for the industry as a whole, more traditional RPG mechanics clearly have a big audience.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Have you not watched Persona 3 Reload and Metaphor trailers? Not we are getting anime cutscenes, we are also high quality 3D cutscenes.

I'm saying more of them, make them more frequent. In many of these games, 'less important' interactions are often just characters standing around in idle animation. You can't tell me that wouldn't make the game better.

Also games like Elden Ring and Armored Core VI had ANY "motion capture" but that didn't stopped me from enjoying those games.

Yeah, cause they're heavily gameplay based. But interestingly enough, they actually demonstrate what i'm talking about.

AC6, from a "niche" genre of mech games, sold tons and even won an award in the last show. What helped this "niche" game into mainstream? Graphics that elevated its stunning scenarios and mechs, amazing visual effects, great sound design and music, excellent VA, the power of money and tech. Alongside BG3 its another great demonstration AAA devs don't have to veer away from classic formulas to make them popular and justify costs.

 

[Yoboman]

BG3 isn't good because of being turn based, it's good in spite of it

The real strength of the combat is the insane options in your approach and that it's as much of a sandbox as the rest of the game

If JRPG Devs should be learning anything it's that they could be doing way more of a sandbox style experience

 

[Guilty_AI]

BG3 isn't good because of being turn based, it's good in spite of it

 

[YukiOnna]

I think OP is just saying the logic of turning historically turn-based/tactical games into action-based because of "appeal", like FFXVI did, doesn't fly anymore.

If it's what you think they're saying then sure yeah, but right now, I think only FF really applies for that and the mainline switches around anyway. However, them not feeling such pressure to do so and creating another big title in the vein of something like Dragon Quest would be nice, or a new FF Tactics/Large-scale Spin-off as you mention? Sure. That said, in relation to the OP's post and claims, my point still stands about sales and I don't think BG3 is needed to be looked at for that; plenty of examples to analyze domestically.

 

[Pejo]

I was unsure where you were gonna go with the OP, but after reading it, I 100% stand behind you.

May FFXVII take this lesson to heart....

 

[RoboFu]

As in more demon / animal sex?

 

[Generic]

Baldur's Gate 3 is The Witcher 3 all over again, lol

 

[Guilty_AI]

If it's what you think they're saying then sure yeah, but right now, I think only FF really applies for that and the mainline switches around anyway.

i'd argue Tales of series is also veering in that direction.

However, them not feeling such pressure to do so and creating another big title in the vein of something like Dragon Quest would be nice, or a new FF Tactics/Large-scale Spin-off as you mention? Sure. That said, in relation to the OP's post and claims, my point still stands about sales and I don't think BG3 is needed to be looked at for that; plenty of examples to analyze domestically.

Indeed, as i mentioned before AC6 is another example of "niche" game turned popular, then there's also stuff like Pokemon.

But the thing with BG3 is that its a blatantly obvious example to make a case out of. It didn't dumb down classic RPG mechanics for the sake of appeal and was still massively successful, from a studio that was mid-tier and an IP that was relatively famous but not anything like Pokemon or Final Fantasy in the videogame world. There are no excuses you can make to explain its success like "Because its pokemon/nintendo!", its just... good, and well presented.

 

[Gaelyon]

TBH, the traditional turn-based JRPG stuff kinda sucks. It's just element vs. another. And RNG of course. Whereas with BG3, much of it has to do with positioning and using the environment to your advantage (or at times, to your demise). BG3 is much more engaging in that regard.

Exactly, it's turn based TACTICAL gameplay. Like Final Fantasy Tactics or X-com, rather than Dragonquest or FFVI. And it's much better because of that (IMHO of course).

 

[Baki]

Go back to making your games turn based. It's really hard to argue against or not notice a turn based rpg winning GOTY and selling between 21 to 30+ million copies. (Can't find exact numbers, maybe someone smarter than I am can help with this)


Congrats on the win. No

Go back to making your games turn based. It's really hard to argue against or not notice a turn based rpg winning GOTY and selling between 21 to 30+ million copies. (Can't find exact numbers, maybe someone smarter than I am can help with this)


Congrats on the win.

We don’t have BG3 sales numbers but the metrics we have certainly point to numbers much lower than 20 million.

 

[iQuasarLV]

I dont care if its AA or AAAAA as long as the game is good and Octopath series brought great 2D-HD visuals style to gaming which happened because of its AA game.

If that is the case where is my DQ3 remake?

 

[Danjin44]

If that is the case where is my DQ3 remake?

As far as I know…..

Dragon Quest III HD-2D Remake "Progressing Quite Steadily", According To Series Creator

But he's got no development updates about DQXII

www.nintendolife.com

 

[iQuasarLV]

Its not just about visual style, motion capture can convey emotions that is hard to do with just VA or text boxes. Same with things like lightining, proper visual direction, etc.

Just compare a full-fledge cutscene in FFXVI with the character talking to a random person in a side-quest. Wouldn't rather if all of the interactions in the game had the same degree of touch and attention as those cutscenes?

What if a game like Persona or Metaphor had a much higher amount of anime-style cutscenes, rather than characters just standing around moving their arms awkwardly? Or at least they used and improved the game visuals to make them as good as one of those anime cutscenes? Its the kind of thing the power of money and graphical tech can bring.

You need to learn to articulate your point before moving the goalpost. until someone gets it for you.

Denjin just likes things about jrpg that modern AAA has moved away from so I suggest understanding their stance and respecting their point before countering. I see both sides but just typing to persuade someone to your point without understanding theirs is moving towards the trolling line.

 

[The artful mincer]

BG3 isn't good because of being turn based, it's good in spite of it

The real strength of the combat is the insane options in your approach and that it's as much of a sandbox as the rest of the game

If JRPG Devs should be learning anything it's that they could be doing way more of a sandbox style experience

How do you know having all the options would work in real time?

As someone who has yet to play it doesn't the the turn based combat work well with the many options?Giving the player time to think and plan etc.

That might be harder to pull off in real time I imagine anyway.

 

[iQuasarLV]

As far as I know…..

Dragon Quest III HD-2D Remake "Progressing Quite Steadily", According To Series Creator

But he's got no development updates about DQXII

www.nintendolife.com

I am happy and sad at the same time. We got OT2 so fast and that game is only progressing steadily. /sigh

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Moving away from turn based was a big mistake, but the biggest problem Square Enix has for example is their production value.

Square Enix games used to be top in class in terms of production value and it wasn't remotely close.

Find me a super nintendo game that looks better than FF6, Chrono Trigger, Seiken Densetsu 3, Bahamut Lagoon, and Terranigma in the years that they released.

SNES through PS2, they were top notch and then they started to really scale back on production quality and to make matters worse, they scaled back on gameplay and story.

They are sitting on a treasure trove right now. They could do a remake of the original Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy Tactics, and others and if they put half as much effort into them as Capcom did with RE2 and RE4... they'd be back and they'd have an engine to really create these games on.

Can't tell you the last time Square Enix blew me away with a game.

 

[The artful mincer]

I found it utterly bizarre when the producer of FFXVI said that they made the game a straight-up action game on the grounds that turn-based RPG's didn't sell. Traditional FF games routinely outsell character action games like Devil May Cry, and Square's own mega-successful FFXIV is, although not turn-based, inarguably an RPG (and ditto for the FFVII remakes). If developers want to go in an action-based direction because that's what they genuinely feel like creating, then awesome. I respect that even if I don't personally enjoy the results (i.e. the abominable dumpster fire that is FFXVI). But for the industry as a whole, more traditional RPG mechanics clearly have a big audience.

I think Yoshi meant all real time action games e.g. God of war and even GTA. Not specifically devil may cry clones.

I agree with you though ditching FF unique selling points just to make an average hack and slash was a huge blunder.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You need to learn to articulate your point before moving the goalpost. until someone gets it for you.

Denjin just likes things about jrpg that modern AAA has moved away from so I suggest understanding their stance and respecting their point before countering. I see both sides but just typing to persuade someone to your point without understanding theirs is moving towards the trolling line.

I don't think you understood my point either. The problem is some big budget JRPGs are moving the same direction many AAA did to justify costs, away from the things that characterized the genre. My and OPs point is they don't have to.

The comment you quoted was more of a side-track to explain why graphics and budget can elevate a game in ways that are significant to it, that it isn't just about 'muh realism'.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Baldur's Gate 3's Main Story is 55 hours with side quest 103 hours.

Final Fantasy XVI? 36 hours and 58 hours with side quests...

That's a staggering difference. I'm not even saying that 36 hours isn't good, but I know that isn't great when I'm confident that is already fluffed out with low grade shit.

Square Enix should have EVERY employee play Baldur's Gate 3 and set the bar.

 

[The artful mincer]

Moving away from turn based was a big mistake, but the biggest problem Square Enix has for example is their production value.

Square Enix games used to be top in class in terms of production value and it wasn't remotely close.

Find me a super nintendo game that looks better than FF6, Chrono Trigger, Seiken Densetsu 3, Bahamut Lagoon, and Terranigma in the years that they released.

SNES through PS2, they were top notch and then they started to really scale back on production quality and to make matters worse, they scaled back on gameplay and story.

They are sitting on a treasure trove right now. They could do a remake of the original Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy Tactics, and others and if they put half as much effort into them as Capcom did with RE2 and RE4... they'd be back and they'd have an engine to really create these games on.

Can't tell you the last time Square Enix blew me away with a game.

While agree with you aren't those games much harder to remake than the old school resident evil games.

Wouldn't they require far more resources to get up to modern standards?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I don't think you understood my point either. The problem is some big budget JRPGs are moving the same direction many AAA did to justify costs, away from the things that characterized the genre. My and OPs point is they don't have to.

The comment you quoted was more of a side-track to explain why graphics and budget can elevate a game in ways that are significant to it, that it isn't just about 'muh realism'.

They absolutely destroyed my level of interest in FF7 Remake a game that was easily my most anticipated game ever.

And don't get me wrong, the gameplay isn't terrible, but it's not the game I wanted. And I certainly didn't need them to add fluff like chasing rats and looking for missing kids. Extending the Midgar section of the game to the full play time of the original game was not in good faith. The original was FIVE hours... and had more heart and depth than this shit.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I found it utterly bizarre when the producer of FFXVI said that they made the game a straight-up action game on the grounds that turn-based RPG's didn't sell. Traditional FF games routinely outsell character action games like Devil May Cry, and Square's own mega-successful FFXIV is, although not turn-based, inarguably an RPG (and ditto for the FFVII remakes). If developers want to go in an action-based direction because that's what they genuinely feel like creating, then awesome. I respect that even if I don't personally enjoy the results (i.e. the abominable dumpster fire that is FFXVI). But for the industry as a whole, more traditional RPG mechanics clearly have a big audience.

Yoshi P is a clown. I wouldn't call XIV an RPG given how streamlined it is to where typical RPG elements don't even matter. More like a dumbed down FFXI WoW clone that only got so far by being a story driven game with flawed systems that constantly need to be reinvented because the core combat/encounter design sucks major ass and is just a game of Simon Says/Dance Dance Revolution arena battler whose only arguably bad expansion was Endwalker the one that sold the most. Ironically a game at it's core that is so bland ironically is the best selling FF in the franchise's entire lifetime.

Mini-rant aside Yoshida tends to run his mouth and not know what he is talking about half the time. He's had quite a few shit takes.

----------------

As far as BG3 is concerned I'm confident if you took away everything except the combat you have a very boring game. It's everything else that draws it's appeal. I don't find cRPG's appealing but BG3 has a lot of appeal in other area's that I feel a lot of games that "chase the money" lack.

But do I think other companies will learn? No. The issue other devs have with BG3 is that it was a passion project that took a big risk in a niche market and is wildly successful with something for everyone instead of playing it safe and chasing trends like most AAA games tend to do. They are baffled because they would not take the risk.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

While agree with you aren't those games much harder to remake than the old school resident evil games.

Wouldn't they require far more resources to get up to modern standards?

You don't need to go for hyperrealistic graphics. Look at Breath of the Wild, it's not a technical marvel, it just has perfect art direction.

But yeah, you're going to need to put the requisite resources into games like these, but putting out half assed efforts and then saying the games aren't selling because they're turn based is laughable wrong.

I've purchased FF7-13, excluding 11. I didn't buy FF14-16.

I've played so many of their classic games over the years and in many cases multiple times.

I'd think I'm Square Enix's target audience.

 

[iQuasarLV]

And the move happened after the failure of FF13. 14 15 16 are responses to the sheer stafing the community did at 13 12 and 9. 10 was their only huge sucess the company banked on. Otherwise we would still be in a turn based final fantasy. Sad part is every shift you see if some ego maniac developer sucking ceo/upper management off to get their ideas because they believe they can steer the Titanic away from the ice burg.

Your point can be counted by how many failed AAA super expensive titles have flopped over the last 10 years as well. What the lesson should be here is that developers need to pull their heads out their asses and read the fucking room. Square Enix has clearly gone the route of trying to tell the gaming arena WHAT they should play instead of adapting to what it wants.

No amount of money can save a shitty game. There are plenty of alternatives beyond Final Fantasy that should have gotten the spotlight these last 10 years but were just absolutely buried because OMG real-time Cloud/Sephiroth rule 34 wankfest kiddies couldn't containt themselves and that is the only thing the CEOs care about the hype not the product.

The problem is not exlusively a movement to the real-time action arena. That is just a symptom of a much larger issue. Shitty greedy uppermanagement getting gaslighted by egocentric producers or developers trying to be directors/producers who have no right to be there. Earn it or suffer the fate of the failure that is your portfolio.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think something that we may need to come to terms with is that we might not see the influences of games like Elden Ring and BG3 for years.

Breath of the Wild came out in 2017. Genshin Impact started development in 2017 inspired by BOTW and released in 2020. It took 3 years.

Elden Ring came out in 2022 and BG3 came out in 2023.

The type of games we're looking to play from JRPG makers probably won't come out for another 4-7 years from BG3.

So we're looking at 2027-2030 to see if Square Enix and others have really learned anything.

But what has Vision of Mana learned from Breath of the Wild? It's still cross gen for SOME reason and it looks WORSE than BOTW a game that came out 6 years ago...

Compare both trailers

 

[MagiusNecros]

Art direction. Although I doubt Vision of Mana will be Sandbox like BotW/TotK.

A good indicator of what to expect is Trials of Mana Remake.

Though I think it's a bit unfair to compare BotW to Vision given Vision was only just announced and won't be released for another year or two.

 

[iQuasarLV]

Yoshi P is a clown. I wouldn't call XIV an RPG given how streamlined it is to where typical RPG elements don't even matter. More like a dumbed down FFXI WoW clone that only got so far by being a story driven game with flawed systems that constantly need to be reinvented because the core combat/encounter design sucks major ass and is just a game of Simon Says/Dance Dance Revolution arena battler whose only arguably bad expansion was Endwalker the one that sold the most. Ironically a game at it's core that is so bland ironically is the best selling FF in the franchise's entire lifetime.

Mini-rant aside Yoshida tends to run his mouth and not know what he is talking about half the time. He's had quite a few shit takes.

----------------

As far as BG3 is concerned I'm confident if you took away everything except the combat you have a very boring game. It's everything else that draws it's appeal. I don't find cRPG's appealing but BG3 has a lot of appeal in other area's that I feel a lot of games that "chase the money" lack.

But do I think other companies will learn? No. The issue other devs have with BG3 is that it was a passion project that took a big risk in a niche market and is wildly successful with something for everyone instead of playing it safe and chasing trends like most AAA games tend to do. They are baffled because they would not take the risk.

You mean the same Yoshi P that said JRPG is a racial slur to japanese developers. That Yoshi P? /lol

 

[MagiusNecros]

You mean the same Yoshi P that said JRPG is a racial slur to japanese developers. That Yoshi P? /lol

Yes. That Yoshi P. Like I said. Total clown.

 

[Zelduh]

I love turn-based game but Baldur's Gate 3 is a horrible implementation of it and I hope they don't follow the bangwagon and make every turn based game like it, because it was unplayable to me even though turn-based RPG is my favorite genre.

 

[Fbh]

I've seen a lot of praise for BG3 over the months but it's rarely if ever about the combat.
Not that the combat is bad, it just doesn't seem to be the element that made the game really resonate with people. I've probably seen more people praise that the game allows you to talk your way out of certain fights than people talking about how much they enjoyed a boss or encounter

FFXVI was pretty bad not because it had real time combat but because the world was boring with nothing to do or find, the sidequest were mostly terrible, the dungeons suck, there's virtually no exploration, a lot of traditional RPG mechanics like crafting, leveling and the economy are simplified to a ridiculous degree, the pacing sucks and often feels like it's forcing you to play through boring filler to get to the next exciting part, it forces you to play your first playthrough on what feels like "very easy", the story starts of really strong and then devolves into tired cliches and you have to choose between 30fps or having to drop the resolution to 720p for visuals which aren't really that impressive outside of cutscenes.

If you took FFXVI and just replaced the real time combat with a traditional turn based one it would still be a 6/10.

 

[KuraiShidosha]

Go back to making your games turn based. It's really hard to argue against or not notice a turn based rpg winning GOTY and selling between 21 to 30+ million copies. (Can't find exact numbers, maybe someone smarter than I am can help with this)


Congrats on the win.

I loved this post. Said the same exact thing yelling out loud when BG3 took GOTY. Rubs it in the face of all these soulless corporate Japanese stooges who sold their very pride and joy genre for profits. Get fucking shit on.

 

[Killer8]

I'd rather developers didn't chase trends. Not every game should fit into the same mold.

 

[bender]

The pull of the game isn't the turn based elements (which are great), but the flexibility in ACTUAL ROLEPLAYING OPTIONS that make it so special.

Press X to fuck bear or O to not fuck bear.

 

[NanaMiku]

TBH, the traditional turn-based JRPG stuff kinda sucks. It's just element vs. another. And RNG of course. Whereas with BG3, much of it has to do with positioning and using the environment to your advantage (or at times, to your demise). BG3 is much more engaging in that regard.

But Like a Dragon 8 also have positioning and environment attack....

 

[Yoboman]

How do you know having all the options would work in real time?

As someone who has yet to play it doesn't the the turn based combat work well with the many options?Giving the player time to think and plan etc.

That might be harder to pull off in real time I imagine anyway.

Didn't say BG3 would work in real time

I am saying that FF or whatever JRPG just switching to turn based won't matter without understanding what makes BG3 combat good is the options, moving through a battle field, being able to use the environment etc.

FF turn based games don't come close

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

Turn based combat in JRPGs is NOTHING like the combat in BG3. Those are as far apart as you can get.

Most turn based JRPG combat fucking sucks. You sit there picking “attack” over and over from a menu until you win. You feel all sophisticated and “strategic” when really you’re just solving the same braindead simple puzzle over and over.

 

[Denton]

BG3's success has little to do with its turnbased combat nature. It is a huge RPG with good writing and handcrafted quests, and AAA production values plus extensive roleplaying freedom. Without those AAA production values though, it would never have broken out into the mainstream the way it did.

 

[M.W.]

Not a fan of BG3 either, but I did like everything except the combat lol

 

[Phase]

Go back to making your games turn based.

 

[Shifty1897]

As a lifelong fan of JRPGs, I can guarantee you JRPG devs will have all the wrong takeaways from Baldur's Gate 3 winning GOTY.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

BTW to all the turn based JRPG purists, time to get over your damn persecution complex. There are still plenty of turn based JRPGs coming out just as there always were. You aren’t under attack. Nobody is oppressing or marginalizing you,

It’s like these people will never feel whole again until FF returns to turn-based and validates them. (Spoiler: if/when that happens they’ll probably find some other reason to hate it anyway)

 

[LazyParrot]

BG3 would have won even if it was RTWP lol.

 

[Lethal01]

I think something that we may need to come to terms with is that we might not see the influences of games like Elden Ring and BG3 for years.

Breath of the Wild came out in 2017. Genshin Impact started development in 2017 inspired by BOTW and released in 2020. It took 3 years.

Elden Ring came out in 2022 and BG3 came out in 2023.

The type of games we're looking to play from JRPG makers probably won't come out for another 4-7 years from BG3.

So we're looking at 2027-2030 to see if Square Enix and others have really learned anything.

But what has Vision of Mana learned from Breath of the Wild? It's still cross gen for SOME reason and it looks WORSE than BOTW a game that came out 6 years ago...

Compare both trailers

better how?

 

[nowhat]

But Like a Dragon 8 also have positioning and environment attack....

Yes, hence "traditional". But it's still far from what BG3 does.

 

[Sojiro]

As in more demon / animal sex?

Bulshit I tell ya. Fuck an anime girl with rabbit/cat ears, you're a furry, fuck a bear in BG3, it's hip and cool. Fucking bullshit I tell ya!

 

[Phase]

BTW to all the turn based JRPG purists, time to get over your damn persecution complex. There are still plenty of turn based JRPGs coming out just as there always were. You aren’t under attack. Nobody is oppressing or marginalizing you,

It’s like these people will never feel whole again until FF returns to turn-based and validates them.

 

[EDMIX]

If you guys don’t like how JRPG plays and tells its story then go fucking play western RPG or CRPG. I got in to JRPGs because they are nothing like them.

same.

I grow tired of this bandwagon type shit, where someone acts as if a game being successful, automatically means a JRPG doing the same would magically gain that same audience.

We fucking know JRPGs exist folks, those buying BG3 clearly didn't want them and I doubt its the first time they heard of turned based or something

You can keep fucking comparing every fucking game to BG3 but I’m not never gonna be in to BG3….you enjoy that game then more power to yo

Well...this needs to be understood by those making it sound as if BG3 is sending some "message" to AAA JRPG games.

Those that like those games, may not like or play BG3 such as yourself, those that play BG3 may not like JRPGs......


Thats it.

So i'm not sure where this idea is coming from that suddenly folks will magically start to care more about turn based, cause BG3 is massively successful, they might just care more about BG3 itself.....

(You doing yourself a disservice not playing BG3 bruv lol, its an RPG i know you'll like based on what you like with RPGs already)

If anything, I'd say Guilty_AI has a point regarding the whole budget thing. We have very little high budget JRPG stuff, like literally Person and FF might really only be it tbh. Even so, do not debate an art direction thing solely as you tend to get tied into that a bit too much...

Consider merely the voice acting in BG3, every person is voiced.

Look at Person 3 remake, is everything fully voiced? As in, going to the store, the random students, is EVERYTHING voiced in that remake? Cause it sounds like they'll just voice the main cast and a few social links and then proceed to just use text for the other characters to save money. This has nothing to do with art, style or really anything else other then avoiding paying a full cast.

So if any one can learn something in any area from BG3, shiiiiiit it should be that.

 

[Exentryk]

It's good that a turn-based game won as I love TB, but I have no interest in CRPGs.

 

[KXVXII9X]

Go back to making your games turn based. It's really hard to argue against or not notice a turn based rpg winning GOTY and selling between 21 to 30+ million copies. (Can't find exact numbers, maybe someone smarter than I am can help with this)


Congrats on the win.

I don't think BG3 being turn based is exactly why it did so well but an accumulation of its systems that give player choice like no other. Turn based combat allowed you to take time and think through each situation carefully. I think it at least says that turn base gameplay isn't dead or doesn't have to be dated. Personally, I would not want a Dragon Quest or Pokémon kind of turn based in 2023. BG3's turn base gameplay is a lot different and a lot more complex and involved. The game also had very high production value which helps a lot.