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"Nothing happens for like 20 hours, but then the good part starts"

D

Dio

Banned
I've played several RPGs where one of the big complaints is "you have to wait like 20 hours to get to the good part where things finally start happening." In a couple of these games, it's usually a slow-paced world-building sort of start to the story - and the tension slowly ramps up as you learn more about the underbelly of the world and the sinister motives of the villain/villains.

I'm mainly focusing on the "nothing happens" part, here. For some of these games, that worldbuilding is really fun and I love talking to all the characters in towns (Trails comes to mind) and enjoying the banter and all that. I can understand if you think it's boring, and that's fine, that's an opinion. The thing is that saying 'nothing happens' until dramatic plot stuff starts hitting the main cast seems kind of silly - it's not like they put all this stuff at the start to bore you with meaningless fluff, they wanted to establish the world and characters so that you DID care about them when dramatic stuff started happening.

There's plenty of media that tries to go straight into dramatic things happening and fails because they didn't properly establish any of the characters, anyway, so you don't even care about what happens to them.

Again, I understand if you think these parts of an RPG or something of the like are boring, that's fine and everyone has their own tastes. It's just that it seems like people have dismissed it outright as being meaningless nonsense you have to suffer through until people start dying and the melodrama starts and things get emotionally dramatic. To me, it seems like that sort of story is just trying to wring an emotional response out of you without doing any of the work to make the response possible. That applies to a lot of TV shows and stories, too, where people start dying left and right but you don't really care about any of them because you didn't get to see what established them as characters but sad music is playing anyway.

There ARE games that actually do have this problem with absolutely no story or no anything for the first part (or a really crappy story) where you have to trudge through it until you get some story/good story, sure. That's not really what I'm focusing on, either.

I guess the bottom line is, I'm also not sure I understand the mentality behind "if there is no death and destruction and evil monsters fucking shit up right now, and there isn't any perilous conflict, when the hell does the actual game begin so I can skip all the pointless crap before that?"
 
H

hatchx

Banned
This is a make or break for me. I dropped FF13 in about 3 hours. I want most of my games to be over in 15-20 hours let alone just get started. Any game that lasts over 20 for me is a multiplayer title or something exceptional.
 
1

13ruce

Banned
A couple of hours is okay but 20 hours is ridiculous imo, thats like 2 full games in some cases.

Games should be good after the intro hours at most imo.
 
B

brad-t

Member
Dio said:
The thing is that saying 'nothing happens' until dramatic plot stuff starts hitting the main cast seems kind of silly - it's not like they put all this stuff at the start to bore you with meaningless fluff, they wanted to establish the world and characters so that you DID care about them when dramatic stuff started happening.
Click to expand...

This should not take 20 hours. Or even 5.
 
G

Goldenroad

Member
I can deal with an hour or two of exposition, but anything over that is too much and enough to drive me away from almost any game. Souls' games might be an exception, at least Dark Souls 1 for me, because that game kept pushing back at me so hard that if I wouldn't have persevered for about 5 hours I would have never discovered how great it really was.
 
X

XANDER CAGE

Member
I'm not sure I'd agree this is the case with most games that get described with this. The easiest go-to here is FFXIII - people don't think it gets good later on because the story has finally ramped up, people say that because that's when the gameplay finally gives them some space to breathe. Give people a little bit of credit; I think most folks appreciate good pacing, which is what you're describing.
 
R

rottendevice

Member
The best example I can think of is Blue Dragon, where a lot of content / things to do open up right at the end of the game. Not to mention you have to do a lot of grinding to beat the final boss.
 
D

Dio

Banned
hatchx said:
This is a make or break for me. I dropped FF13 in about 3 hours. I want most of my games to be over in 15-20 hours let alone just get started. Any game that lasts over 20 for me is a multiplayer title or something exceptional.
Click to expand...

I'm saying that the beginning of the game "is" part of the game. The moment shit starts going south isn't when the game begins, it's when the part of the game you are excited for begins. I get what you mean re: FF13, and I'm not really talking about that game when I bring this up. In most games, the reason that part is so awesome is BECAUSE they established it properly by building the world before that part comes.
 
P

Platy

Member
My biggest problem when that sentence is used is not even the "hey, that world building is fun" ... is the "holy shit how are you STILL playing that game ?"
 
J

John Kowalski

Banned
hatchx said:
This is a make or break for me. I dropped FF13 in about 3 hours. I want most of my games to be over in 15-20 hours let alone just get started. Any game that lasts over 20 for me is a multiplayer title or something exceptional.
Click to expand...

Well, if you're looking for 20 hour games there's no Final Fantasy that could satisfy that.

Chairmanchuck said:
FF13 I would argue.
Click to expand...

FFXIII gets going right from the start. The story even begins in media res. What it does have is a slow momentum that takes a long time of steady climbing to reach an early climax, rest for a bit, then starts going up again at full speed.
 
F

Funyarinpa

Member
I do not agree at all with "a game has to be very interesting from the get go to be a good game", though I can see why it would be a deterrent for many people. Some slow burns are great thanks to being slow burns (Persona 4, especially, comes to mind). It's risky for a developer though, since you risk people losing interest before getting to the better parts of your game.
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
I don't even think FF13 is a good example of this, but even if, OP said "I've played several", so what are the others?

FF13 "opens up" after a long time, but its not like the game radically changes. If you hated the combat system and characters and whatever before 20 hours, being able to grind adamantoise isn't going to make you like the game.
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
Ffxiii had its problems but I wouldn't put it in this category at all. You could argue its went it gets your attention alil or whatever but to say nothing happens is absurd
 
P

purseowner

Member
People keep telling me that Skyward Sword gets good a hefty number of hours in.

In fact, I've seen footage of impressive looking moments from later on in the game. But the motion controls and navigational confusion I felt in the first major area made it too frustrating to continue.
 
J

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
It really depends for me. I realize how rose-tinted this will sound (but it's true): I vastly prefer the so-called "nothingness" found in earlier RPGs over much of what I've found today. People sometimes tell me Xenogears starts out real damned slowly, but there's so much cool (IMO) exposition, world-building, and a sense of adventure in Fei traveling with a few other characters and learning the way the world works. Also, the game starts with
him contributing to destroying his village
so that's pretty bombastic. And by the time "the game has actually begun" entire miniature plot arcs have occurred.

Contrast that with something like, say, Xenoblade Chronicles. It has a nice narrative hook reasonably early on but it's mostly just a whole lot of occasional talking for another third of the game. There are great character beats in there, to be sure. But I think modern "nothing happens for like 20 hours" gaming just isn't the same anymore. Assets need to be build for these larger-scale worlds and they need to be filled with more and more content and somewhere along the way the idea of arc after arc after arc, leading to a satisfying overarching arc, is dying.
 
X

xzeldax3

Member
A lot of people say this about Persona 4, but I absolutely LOVE how it slowly introduces you to the world and characters. It make it feel more "real." Like I actually did just move to my uncles house in the countryside.

So to me, the "good part" happens right in the beginning and never lets up.
 
B

bananafactory

Banned
I find this an insult to my time

20 hours is 2-4 weeks of gaming for me. There's no fucking way I'm going to put up with that no matter how good the game gets.

I play games to have fun and there are hundreds if not thousands of games that are enjoyable right from the start. So if a game doesn't grab me after a couple of hours I drop it and move on to something else

Maybe I'm missing out on some great things? Sure. But I don't have the patience nor the inclination to put myself through that
 
T

Timeaisis

Member
It's all about engagement for me. Wind Waker has a "slow start" as far as main plot goes, but it works really well to get a feel for the world and I quite enjoy the first couple hours.

Dragon Quest VII literally wastes your time with neither plot or gameplay for the first couple hours and then is exceedingly slow until it becomes an engaging game.
 
D

Dio

Banned
ponpo said:
I don't even think FF13 is a good example of this, but even if, OP said "I've played several", so what are the others?

FF13 "opens up" after a long time, but its not like the game radically changes. If you hated the combat system and characters and whatever before 20 hours, being able to grind adamantoise isn't going to make you like the game.
Click to expand...
Every single Trails game has had this criticism levelled at it, that nothing really happens until about halfway or three-quarters of the way through the game. I don't agree with this at all, and I think those entire games are fun and have fun stuff happening in them but people only really look at all the dramatic story beats and say this is when the game really begins.
 
L

LakeEarth

Member
This is why I love Chrono Trigger so much. "Hey there's a festival, ooh a hot mysterious girl, WHAT THE FUCK WHERE'D SHE GO." Boom, gets right into it within the first 20 minutes.
 
Petrae

Petrae

Member
I grew up in the arcade era, when games had to hook players quickly or else they didn't come back. I have no patience for games that fail to hook me quickly. With so many potential choices out there for me to choose from, I just drop games that don't give me good reason to play after an hour-- and it really doesn't matter to me how much better a game might get after 10, 20, or more hours.

Final Fantasy XIII-- as has been mentioned repeatedly already-- is a great example of this, but certainly not the only example of a game that I have dumped after 60 minutes and never went back.
 
H

HTupolev

Member
sanstesy said:
Which game takes 20 hours to get going?
Click to expand...
Some people say FFXIII, although it strikes me as odd that someone who disliked the first ten chapters would suddenly warm up to the game. Being able to arrange your team is a neat shifting in constraints but it's not really transformative to core gameplay, and the "opens up" thing is basically just a big bulge in the hallway.

The gameplay systems do feel pretty incomplete for the first couple hours, though. That part of the game can really sell you on Lightning as party lead, because placing AoEs and timing finishing blows with her moveset is perhaps the one thing in the first two chapters that's vaguely interestingish.
 
N

Neoleo2143

Member
I can invest 20 hours if I feel like I'm learning something new about what I'm invested in throughout those 20 hours. If the pay off is worth it then I'll take it but I'm not going to consider it worth it unless the prerequisite I set is met.

Games (and most media for that matter) don't "get good" at a certain point. They stop being bad or become amazing.
 
D

Dio

Banned
LotusHD said:
I think Trails of the Sky FC falls under this category? Not sure.
Click to expand...
It's one of the big things I had in mind. I think the entire thing is awesome and I enjoyed all of it, but for some people they were waiting for the game to get really started. What I'm trying to say is that you were playing the game from the start, and it's just that you think that part is boring, not that it hasn't started yet, and I don't share the opinion that it's boring. I enjoyed the slow paced world-building talking to all of the characters, learning more about the world, et cetera.
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Dio said:
Every single Trails game has had this criticism levelled at it, that nothing really happens until about halfway or three-quarters of the way through the game. I don't agree with this at all, and I think those entire games are fun and have fun stuff happening in them but people only really look at all the dramatic story beats and say this is when the game really begins.
Click to expand...

I definitely stopped playing the only Trails game I've ever played well before 20 hours, so agreed.
 
J

JeffZero

Purple Drazi
LakeEarth said:
This is why I love Chrono Trigger so much. "Hey there's a festival, ooh a hot mysterious girl, WHAT THE FUCK WHERE'D SHE GO." Boom, gets right into it within the first 20 minutes.
Click to expand...

Incidentally, I actually find Chrono Trigger fairly boring for its first 5 (out of like 25) hours. It's easily the weakest stretch of the game to me.

Now, granted, it's still a lot stronger in its narrative simplicity than many other RPGs.
 
R

rockx4

Member
It's kind of ridiculous to expect anyone to invest 20 hours into worldbuilding, if the developer has no idea how to make it fun. I'm not going to invest 20 hours into anything in hopes that it might get better.
 
L

LotusHD

Banned
Dio said:
It's one of the big things I had in mind. I think the entire thing is awesome and I enjoyed all of it, but first some people they were waiting for the game to get really started. What I'm trying to say is that you were playing the game from the start, and it's just that you think that part is boring, not that it hasn't started yet, and I don't share the opinion that it's boring. I enjoyed the slow paced world-building talking to all of the characters, learning more about the world, et cetera.
Click to expand...

True. I played a little of it on Steam, and I felt pretty bored. (I'll eventually revisit it though.) It's kind of irritating, because the general consensus is that the story is so very good and what not. But then you play it, and realize you have forever to go before you realize you're finally hooked to said story. Stuff like gameplay and what not can make stuff like that less tedious, but it's a very case-by-case ordeal for me. Like with Pokemon Sun, which I had just beaten recently, it takes awhile to start delving into the meat of the story, but I didn't mind the wait at all. But for other games, sometimes I'm just like, please hurry the fuck up...
 
D

Dio

Banned
rockx4 said:
It's kind of ridiculous to expect anyone to invest 20 hours into worldbuilding, if the developer has no idea how to make it fun. I'm not going to invest 20 hours into anything in hopes that it might get better.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying solely world building either. in pretty much all of the games I'm bringing up you can get into gameplay pretty quickly, it's just that all the dramatic plot stuff doesn't start for a while.
 
tearsofash

tearsofash

Member
bobawesome said:
Many people would probably say Steins;Gate. I'm not one of them.
Click to expand...

I just started playing this and I really like it, but I'm waiting for stuff to happen. I'm already pretty hooked though.

As for final fantasy 13 I think the only reason I didn't mind was because I didn't know it would hold my hand for so long. It's not like there was zero story til the game opened up. I think that's why I much preferred 13-2.
 
R

Rad-

Member
My limit is somewhere around 5-6 hours. Suikoden 5 was like that. The first 5 hours or so were really boring but then it got good.
 
D

DavidDesu

Member
Shenmue is the only game I've played where this kind of slow build up has been worthwhile and added to my enjoyment (seemingly 1 and even 2 are really just the build up to whatever the real game is meant to transform into). All these proper JRPG's etc just completely lose me. It puts me off even trying them when you see people recommending a game and saying something like "once you get past the 10 hour introduction"... FUCK OFF. Just don't have time for that. I personally struggle to keep invested in a game. I've finished so few games, so having such a glacially slow build up I'm supposed to wade through before the meat and gravy of the game begins just turns me completely off.

Edit: Also, many of these same games feature comically terrible characters to "talk" to, crappy dialogue, meaningless names etcetera. Often topped off with a terrible dialogue system that's too slow or constantly requires hitting a button to speed it up. There's little of worth to even make the intro worth it AT ALL. Sorry just my opinion.
 
S

Servbot24

Banned
I really disagree with this applying to FFXIII. Sure there are things you don't get right away, but the first 20 hours are pretty much the meat of the game.
 
Z

zeemumu

Member
Yeah, stuff like Monster Hunter have a bit of a curve that deflects a lot of potential players. But once you get over it, you're good
 
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