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[KarmaCow]

Is it bad if you can agree with everything the OP said and still feel like she was easily the best character in MGSV? It's pretty bad, right? Characters were goddamn awful.

Quiet is the only one that goes through any kind of arc, even if it is forced and nonsensical.

I still think how they used Huey was better though.

 

[Gator86]

The entire thread is based on the idea that overt sexiness wrong. I'm asking how.

You are either being willfully ignorant or are not intellectually capable of following this conversation. No one has suggested anything of the sort. Beating a dead strawman doesn't contribute anything.

 

[mikefrails]

You're about to be banned if you keep posting this kind of thing.

MGSV is a game in which many male characters strut around talking and not bein objectified (or "sexy") - and literally the ONLY female character? Reduced to her sexy features and almost nothing else. Super sexualised. Objectified

Sexual objectification is OK if it's equally gendered, or the point of the whole work. Neither is the case of MGSV or how Quiet is handled.

And I personally think she's a good character. It's just her execution which is heinous.

You're subtly suggesting I should be banned because you don't like my stance.

No, I didn't use the word objectification nor do I think that's okay. But sexiness? There isn't an arbitrary balance that has to be struck in every game or work. Would it have been better if there was a male equivalent? Most MGS players are probably male and Kojima is most likely aware of that. The placement of Quiet made sense. Why do fashion shows exist? Why do glamour models even have careers? People like it and that's what I'm defending. I'm not telling you to like it and you don't have to. But to say it's not okay and shouldn't exist is silly.

 

[Thicc Enigma]

I seriously don't get the hate Quiet gets. It's a just a game and a MGS game at that. Funky out of this word stuff is expected with any MGS title so with that in mind, trying to understand it from the hate crowd perspective is still astonishing to me.

 

[HK-47]

Strawman the Thread

 

[rhandino]

Impossibru, Nintendo would never do such thing!

Except that they have totally been doing it since the first game?

Tiki (Mistery of the Emblem)

Tiki (Awakening - 1000 years later)

 

[Shaanyboi]

It actively has decreased my desire to play more of the game. Her introduction was rad. All this pandering shit after is fucking embarrassing

 

[Sky Saw]

I think she's fine, but the reason Kojima gave for her nakedness was silly. Just own it.

 

[patapuf]

I'm not too fussed about fanservice, i enjoy it even.

But i don't really get why a major character is walking around in ripped stockings and a bikini when the rest of the squad is walking around in combat gear. It's not even really sexy and for the lore reason they gave she might as well have been naked and a have different skin color

Spoiler

green

.

I don't know about embarrassing, but it's a really bad character design imo. Even if your main goal was fanservice.

 

[Setsuna]

No matter what anyone says its still the reason she survives being

Spoiler

drowned

in pretty much her only major story mission

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm gonna fulton myself out of this thread. NeoGaf will never handle a pair of boobs. I mean, if you can't take quiet with a laugh and deal with it i don't know how you will do when something bad will happen to you. Quiet is cool. She' s the strongest character of MGSV. The creator of a medium has the freedom of do what he wants, if you can't deal with it just go on. We don't need 6 quiet hate thread every month.

I hate this "You can't handle boobs" or "You're timid" narrative that people try to craft about those who don't like being pandered to by a videogame. And the "creator can do what he wants" things, true, however, he can do what he wants but that doesn't shield him from criticism.

Is it really? Plenty of mediums that have been around much longer then video games is full of things that would be deemed trashy, outdated ideals, not pc etc.

Yes it is really better than Quiet, mediums that have been around much longer have told stories about characters way more complex than any game character, as we saw tho there are still plenty of Michael Bays.

The entire thread is based on the idea that overt sexiness wrong. I'm asking how.

No it's not, it's based off of the idea that incredibly contrived completely out of place hypersexualization and sexism is wrong.

I seriously don't gate the hate Quiet gets. It's a just a game and a MGS game at that. Funky out of this word stuff is expected with any MGS title so with that in mind, trying to understand it from the hate crowd perspective is still astonishing to me.

Read the arguments presented by myself and others about why. And concerning the bolded please watch this

 

[Brawndo Addict]

There's an old article by Laura Hudson about this issue of female design as it pertains to the comic world but it's just as relevant, "The Big Sexy Problem with Superheroines and Their 'Liberated Sexuality". I'll quote a few parts, but its worth reading the whole thing in my opinion.

This is not about these women wanting things; it’s about men wanting to see them do things, and that takes something that really should be empowering — the idea that women can own their sexuality — and transforms it into yet another male fantasy. It takes away the actual power of the women and turns their “sexual liberation” into just another way for dudes to get off. And that is at least ten times as gross as regular cheesecake, minimum.

And the problem is that when I look at these women, I would very much like to see confident ladies who enjoy sex and are having a fun sexy time. But what I see instead are women who give me the same impression as creepy dead-eyed porn stars mechanically mouthing “oh yeah, I want it.” And that feeling of coerced sexual enthusiasm is the creepiest, saddest, most unerotic thing I can imagine. And if I were able to have a boner, seeing something like that would make me lose it every time.

Female characters are only insatiable, barely-dressed aliens and strippers because someone decided to make them that way. It isn’t a fact. It isn’t an inviolable reality, especially in a comic book universe that has just been rebooted. In the end, what matters is what you choose to show people and how you show them, not the reasons you make up to justify it. Because this is comics, everybody. You can make up anything.

Most of all, what I keep coming back to is that superhero comics are nothing if not aspirational. They are full of heroes that inspire us to be better, to think more things are possible, to imagine a world where we can become something amazing. But this is what comics like this tell me about myself, as a lady: They tell me that I can be beautiful and powerful, but only if I wear as few clothes as possible. They tell me that I can have exciting adventures, as long as I have enormous breasts that I constantly contort to display to the people around me. They tell me I can be sexually adventurous and pursue my physical desires, as long as I do it in ways that feel inauthentic and contrived to appeal to men and kind of creep me out

And I’m tired. I’m so, so tired of hearing those messages from comics because they aren’t the dreams or the escapist fantasies or the aspirations that I want to have. They don’t make me feel joyful or powerful or excited. They make me feel so goddamn sad that I want to cry, because I have devoted my entire life to comics, and when I read superhero books like these I realize that most of the time, they don’t give a sh*t about me.

Also since someone sort of asked for real world impacts (replace objectification with content if word choice prevents you from engaging in good faith):

From an article series Dr. Caroline Heldman wrote about Sexual objectification.

Sexual objectification is nothing new, but this latest era is characterized by greater exposure to advertising and increased sexual explicitness in advertising, magazines, television shows, movies, video games, music videos, television news, and “reality” television.

In a culture with widespread sexual objectification, women (especially) tend to view themselves as objects of desire for others. This internalized sexual objectification has been linked to problems with mental health (clinical depression, “habitual body monitoring”), eating disorders, body shame, self-worth and life satisfaction, cognitive functioning, motor functioning, sexual dysfunction, access to leadership and political efficacy. Women of all ethnicities internalize sexual objectification, as do men to a far lesser extent.

Beyond the internal effects, women who are sexually objectified are dehumanized by others and seen as less competent and less worthy of empathy by both men and women. Furthermore, exposure to images of sexual objectification causes male viewers to be more tolerant of sexual harassment and rape myths. Add to this the countless hours that some girls/women spend primping to garner heterosexual male attention, and the erasure of middle-aged and elderly women who have little value in a society that places women’s primary value on their sexualized bodies.

 

[AESplusF]

The entire thread is based on the idea that overt sexiness wrong. I'm asking how.

I think people here want to see diverse characters in games, and if someone was hoping Quiet would provide that, then I could see how that might be disappointing.

There are some people that are uncomfortable with anything sexy, but the sane people here aren't so just look past it before you get yourself banned.
And I don't think you should be banned but you very well could be.

 

[Alex Stroud]

The uproar about Quiet when the game came out had me worried, and when I finally sat down to play it I had my girlfriend cover my eyes whenever Quiet appeared so I couldn't see the digital waifu, and I had a paper bag by my side if I began hyperventilating in case my girlfriend wasn't quick enough covering my eyes.

My girlfriend was proud of me for not succumbing to objectification and deviance, but since then she's been doing chores around the house in attire that I'm told is very similar to Quiet's, so I fear she may have been corrupted.

 

[Betty]

Horse Shit

SHE SHOOTS A FUCKING JET OUT OF THE SKY IN A MOVING HELICOPTER WITH A SNIPER RIFLE

SHE LIGHTS A CIGAR BY SHOOTING IT

SHE CAN RICOCHET GRENADES

SHE SAVES SOME KIDS NECKLACE BECAUSE SHE'S AWESOME

 

[staticneuron]

The problem with MGSV and Quiet specifically, aside from what's been mentioned already, is first of all the escalation of the fanservice over the series' life, and secondly the utter lack of female characters with actual character development in the rest of V.

Cleavage down the navel is a thing with various female characters throughout the series, but they otherwise act pretty normally unless they're being seductive for a reason (Eva). By the time MGS4 comes around though, you can perv on the Beauties while they pose sexily in skintight suits, which is one step removed from Quiet presenting her ass to you like an animal in the ACC or showering while soldiers call her a "dirty girl", but not quite as cringeworthy.

The thing that all the other MGS games have, though, is female characters with character development. All of the returning female characters who appear in MGSV are dead, then you have Quiet, and the Skull sniper unit (silent, interchangeable bikini-clad women whose defining characteristic is their T&A, just look at the camera work during their intro). Sure you have the odd female soldier you can capture and recruit, and even play as, but these aren't real characters. The issues with Quiet may not have looked as egregious with another female character to contrast her with, but there aren't any.

I agree with you and respect your points. The only thing I was commenting on is that people state kojima's reasoning as if he felt he needed to do that. He simply hasn't done so before.

It's a bit goofy but at least she's being all seductive there.

Oh, here she is when in combat, outdoors:

Two things one video from the original and one from the remaster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAY0JLkoF5c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr7YPzuPLas

Notice the steam coming out of meryls, snake and sniper wolves mouth? The temperature around them would need to be below 45 deg F for that to happen. Please don't try to spin that around. It is still illogical.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I hate this "You can't handle boobs" or "You're timid" narrative that people try to craft about those who don't like being pandered to by a videogame. And the "creator can do what he wants" things, true, however, he can do what he wants but that doesn't shield him from criticism.

I still remember people calling me a prude for calling The Witcher's sex cards immature.

A mini-game where you literally take women as trophies.

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

Yeah both. Theres Nintendo's naked little girl who happens to be a 1000 year old dragon, so it's ok.

I dated a 5'0, 87lb adult once. Is this girl explicitly called a child?

 

[inner-G]

She's a metaphor for Konami's treatment of Kojima

Keeping him 'quiet'

 

[HK-47]

Horse Shit

SHE SHOOTS A FUCKING JET OUT OF THE SKY IN A MOVING HELICOPTER WITH A SNIPER RIFLE

SHE LIGHTS A CIGAR BY SHOOTING IT

SHE CAN RICOCHET GRENADES

SHE SAVES SOME KIDS NECKLACE BECAUSE SHE'S AWESOME

You sure cut the gordian knot with this post.

 

[Rajang]

Completely agree. Absolute joke of a character. Terribly voice acted as well.

 

[The Silver]

B&B unit was far worse, at least I can say in my head that Quiet really really wants to jump Mr.Venom's bones. The shit with the B&B photoshoots was just.....what......completely out of nowhere for literally no reason but to pander.

It was even funnier after it all when Drebin talks about their ultra grimdark tragic backstories and Snake completely no sells it.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

"Sex is bad and you should feel bad."

Nah, she's alright. Pretty much fits in the with the other crazy-ass MGS character designs.

 

[Kanashimi]

You really think that a single shirtless scene is comparable to a character who's constantly almost-naked and is parading her T&A in front of the camera in every scene she's in?


Do you understand the concept of strawman? Because no, I'm not going to present arguments in favour of a point no one made.

I gave multiple different examples in my first post. I ran around for two to three hours as Raiden when he was naked back in MGS2. You don't have to present arguments if you don't want to, but realistically I liked Quiet's story and her reasoning for being the dressed the way she was. I wish she had one or two more heavy reactions here or there, but that didn't seem to fit the tone they gave her character. I enjoyed how she was somewhat mysterious in ways, too. I could see how you'd dislike her sexual nature or lack of clothes in the early game, but by the end I liked the journey her story went on. I mean, you could see her actions towards Snake as trying to communicate or express how she feels.

Spoiler

Depending on how you look at it, it is somewhat implied she liked Snake enough to change sides

.

Does her using her sexuality to communicate make her bad? How? People do that all the time to flirt or drop hints to hope the person they like will say something,

Spoiler

but she decides not to talk as not to hurt the people around her.

 

[Thicc Enigma]

She's a metaphor for Konami's treatment of Kojima

Keeping him 'quiet'

Seems legit.

 

[SomTervo]

You're subtly suggesting I should be banned because you don't like my stance.

No, I didn't use the word objectification nor do I think that's okay. But sexiness? There isn't an arbitrary balance that has to be struck in every game or work. Would it have been better if there was a male equivalent? Most MGS players are probably male and Kojima is most likely aware of that. The placement of Quiet made sense. Why do fashion shows exist? Why do glamour models even have careers? People like it and that's what I'm defending. I'm not telling you to like it and you don't have to. But to say it's not okay and shouldn't exist is silly.

I'm not suggesting you should be banned. I don't want you to be banned.

I'm saying I've _seen_ people get banned for saying similar.

It's not about sexiness or an arbitrary balance. It's about the quality of the work. A work has to be consistent. If you made a serious thriller full of women in trench coats, and the camera focuses on their faces and on their actions, then you have one male character who wears nothing but swimming trunks, and every time he's on screen the camera focuses on his ass and his bulge with _utmost seriousness_, then that is a fucking deep imbalance within the work. It's an absurd break in the visual logic - the visual narrative in a visual work of art.

And the fact that it's a woman - because the above inverted example would never happen with a man - ties it directly with the culture of objectification which has been greatly reduced but is still pervasive today.

 

[patapuf]

I dated a 5'0, 87lb adult once. Is this girl explicitly called a child?

Nowie's mannerism are really childish. When people make fun of the "1000 year old dragon" trope, it's because of characters like her.

She looks very young and she acts very young, there's no hint of maturity in her charactersation. But she is really old because the lore says so.

There's stories where a 1000 year old Being in a childs body works and is a good/fun plot device. Nowie doesn't work.

 

[SilentRob]

Horse Shit

SHE SHOOTS A FUCKING JET OUT OF THE SKY IN A MOVING HELICOPTER WITH A SNIPER RIFLE

SHE LIGHTS A CIGAR BY SHOOTING IT

SHE CAN RICOCHET GRENADES

SHE SAVES SOME KIDS NECKLACE BECAUSE SHE'S AWESOME

Can you tell me why she did those things, what exactly her motivations as a character where?

Because as far as I know the answers to that is:

Because she was told to, because she can shoot guns real good, because the can shoot guns real good and I have no effin idea.
"She is naked a lot and can shoot guns real good" is basically everything I got out of her character and your not exactly proving me wrong with that post

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

"Sex is bad and you should feel bad."

Nobody here has ever posted that.

Is this seriously how you interpret people trying to have a discussion about female character designs?

 

[Mr. Poolman]

She is terrible, but part of what makes her even worse was the whole "ashamed of your words and deeds" by Kojima.
Come on man, just say it "I'm a pervert", we won't judge you.

I think there should be an equivalent to Bechdel test in gaming. Something on the lines that if you can play a game with a girlfriend/wife watching and not be ashamed.

 

[toastyToast]

Why doesn't she write anything down?
Why couldn't they teach her to sign with the multitude of language experts you bring to MB?
Why does she writhe around like a horny cat?

Quiet's inability to talk doesn't precipitate all the other bullshit tied to the character. That awful outfit could have worked if she wore it strictly out of utility but that isn't the case either. A series of decisions led to the character being the garbage seen in the final game.

 

[GloriousBagel]

I dated a 5'0, 87lb adult once. Is this girl explicitly called a child?

On GAF she would be, be ashamed

 

[Zaptruder]

If you wanna give me Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball in my Metal Gear then just step up to it, and present it as such. Have fun with it, poke fun at it, and make it as fun and vulgar as ever. But don't present it in some self-important package and pretend it's some critical, highly justified piece of the narrative.

Here's the funny thing though... there's another point of view in the community that says; I want more justification for sexualization!

Really a case of can't please them all I think.

But it sounds for you... you'd have been less angry if Kojima didn't pretend it was anything else but fan service?

So your reaction is more about the external factors surrounding the creation of the character, rather than the appearance of the character itself?

Before you answer - think about how you'd feel if the PR messaging about Quiet had been; 'Yes, we made a fan service character that we think you'd like!', but was otherwise unchanged in the game.

 

[Jeffolation]

Used her on a lot of missions, was overjoyed when I unlocked the Gray XOF outfit.

 

[papo]

You know what I think is embarrassing gamers that take games so seriously that they use words like embarrassing or gross to describe them or parts of it.

It's a game, it's Metal Gear one of the most over the top franchise in terms of story.

 

[FStop7]

Where exactly are video games supposed to be elevated to?

I'll take "something beyond a 12 year old's fap bait" for a start.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I would have respected the inclusion of Quiet more if Kojima had given the reason "I like the boobs". Because you know what, I like the boobs too, so I get that. But instead he tried to imply she was developed as something deeper, going as far as to call her an antithesis of female objectification. And if that was honestly what he was trying then he completely dropped the ball which is disappointing given how much I usually like his characters and the brand of zany goofball nonsense they bring.

 

[mikefrails]

It's not about sexiness or an arbitrary balance. It's about the quality of the work. A work has to be consistent. If you made a serious thriller full of women in trench coats, and the camera focuses on their faces and on their actions, then you have one male character who wears nothing but swimming trunks, and every time he's on screen the camera focuses on his ass and his bulge with _utmost seriousness_, then that is a fucking deep imbalance within the work. It's an absurd break in the visual logic - the visual narrative in a visual work of art.

Contrast is a prevalent aspect of Kojima's work.

 

[HK-47]

You know what I think is embarrassing gamers that take games so seriously that they use words like embarrassing or gross to describe them or parts of it.

It's a game, it's Metal Gear one of the most over the top franchise in terms of story.

Excuses, excuses. Being over the top doesnt change the argument here and MGS is also held in high regard for its stories and characters by a lot of people. Its why V went through multiple spoiler threads. Kojima didnt help by setting up his wank fantasy as something meaningful when originally criticized for Quiet design.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

Can you tell me why she did those things, what exactly her motivations as a character where?

Because as far as I know the answers to that is:

Because she was told to, because she can shoot guns real good, because the can shoot guns real good and I have no effin idea.
"She is naked a lot and can shoot guns real good" is basically everything I got out of her character and your not exactly proving me wrong with that post

But does she afraid of anything?

 

[Palculator]

Dust hasn't settled.

 

[ElTorro]

Used her on a lot of missions, was overjoyed when I unlocked the Gray XOF outfit.

I am sure she looked breathtaking in it.

 

[Rajang]

"Sex is bad and you should feel bad."

Nah, she's alright. Pretty much fits in the with the other crazy-ass MGS character designs.

I disagree, she sticks out like a sore thumb. Who wears an outfit like that on a battlefield? Come on lol. The excuse they thought up for that ridiculous outfit is complete bullshit.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I still remember people calling me a prude for calling The Witcher's sex cards immature.

A mini-game where you literally take women as trophies.

Exactly, it's such a shit argument to present, as if they know what you do irl with your SO.

"Sex is bad and you should feel bad."

Nah, she's alright. Pretty much fits in the with the other crazy-ass MGS character designs.

Nice strawman, criticizing objectification and hypersexualization does not in anyway shape or form mean sex is bad. It means objectification and hypersexualization especially when handled incredibly poorly are bad. And no it doesn't fit, especially not with the other character designs of MGSV. One of these is not like the other
Males

None of these are crazy designs at all, the only time Quiet doesn't look out of place is when she's near the other BB snipers who not so coincidentally are also women who're hypersexualized.

 

[Ganzlinger]

She is not even close to be the most embarassing gaming character.

 

[Guess Who]

I think there should be an equivalent to Bechdel test in gaming.

It occurs to me that it'd be literally impossible for MGSV to pass the Bechdel test because the only other major female character on-screen for the entire game

Spoiler

is a figment of Venom's imagination

. I don't even think any of the tapes ever have a woman talking to another woman. It's kind of impressive.

 

[L95]

I dated a 5'0, 87lb adult once. Is this girl explicitly called a child?

At least in the Japanese version, that character's daughter even calls her father a "person who likes little girls" for marrying her:/ The localization toned a lot of it down, though.

 

[Sai-kun]

if kojima had just been straight up and said 'yeah she's hot and that's why she's in the game' i think people would have taken way less issue. it's not like sexualized women are a new trope to games.

his bullshit reasoning about why she's quiet is just...so fucking boring lmao

You know what I think is embarrassing gamers that take games so seriously that they use words like embarrassing or gross to describe them or parts of it.

It's a game, it's Metal Gear one of the most over the top franchise in terms of story.

when has this ever been an acceptable excuse for anything relating to games?

 

[GloriousBagel]

I'll take "something beyond a 12 year old's fap bait" for a start.

Because the mainstream is grown up as fuck right?

I'm tired of the 12 year old fap rhetoric. Most men wouldn't mind seeing a babe in a bikini.

 

[malfcn]

They just wanted to mocap Joosten doing all that stuff. /s

Alot of it felt very, off.
From the Boss to Quiet is a huge change in female character.