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[APF]

He's very pretty

 

[Lefty42o]

The point is that in Obama's speech, the only prescient thing is the same prescience displayed by Dick Cheney in his explanations why Bush I didn't continue the war in Iraq in the first place, backed by the same reservations that were mainstream in the Democratic party at the time--including those voiced by Clinton, Kerry, etc--namely that the timing of the war was suspect, that inspections were the best course of action at the time but they needed to be backed by a credible deterrent, and that military action shouldn't proceed without a clear multilateral coalition. Note that Obama does not question Hussein's pursuit of banned weapons in that speech, only the idea that he's an imminent threat to the US.

cause he wasn't a threat. and hadn't been a credible threat since 98 and even then i doubt how much of a threat he was.

here we are in 2008 and its clear he was not a threat. and tis obvious that the iraq war happened because of 9/11 fear mongering. and when we needed competent leadership no one in the senate stood up and said this is wrong. it was incompetence that passed the resolution with out thew wording many senators including hillary clinton thought was implied. ie last resort.

And because of that we do not make excuses for the lapse in judgment. Mistakes were made and those on watch are responsible. we don't move forward by electing those individuals to the presidency.

 

[APF]

Thanks; with that analysis you've convinced me not to vote for Bush in 2004.

 

[Guileless]

He was enough of a threat in '98 for Pres. Clinton and Sec. of State Madeline Albright to be willing to trade Iraqi lives for the sake of sanctions. I believe that is one of the reasons the turrists attacked us.

 

[topsyturvy]

I'm not sure if you're naive or just willfully ignorant, but Hillary is a veteran politician, lying is what she does. You are trying to use Hillary's own claims as evidence to support...her own claims. That is retarded.

"She really did believe the US wasn't going to war!"
"What makes you think that?"
"Cause she said so in the debate like 32 times!"

Nice assumption.

But you do know im stating that simply from her speech she gave in front of the senate right?

 

[bob_arctor]

He was enough of a threat in '98 for Pres. Clinton and Sec. of State Madeline Albright to be willing to trade Iraqi lives for the sake of sanctions.

Word. (though maybe it wasn't because Iraq was so much a threat as it was a convenient target, push-over, paper tiger.)

 

[APF]

Gotta nuke something.

 

[bob_arctor]

Gotta nuke something.

Good evening.

Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors.

Their purpose is to protect the national interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the Middle East and around the world.

Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.

Sounds vaguely familiar, eh?

 

[PhoenixDark]

If Obama had been in the senate during the war vote I bet he would have voted absent

 

[harSon]

If Obama had been in the senate during the war vote I bet he would have voted absent

Keep on fighting the good fight

 

[bob_arctor]

Keep on fighting the good fight

Is he though? I think it's a fair point to be honest. Who knows what kind of pressure would have been put on him or how he would have responded to it.

 

[APF]

Is he though? I think it's a fair point to be honest. Who knows what kind of pressure would have been put on him or how he would have responded to it.

I think he'd mumble incoherently until Wolf Blitzer forced him to say "yes."

 

[harSon]

I think he'd mumble incoherently until Wolf Blitzer forced him to say "yes."

You mean like Hillary's long drawn out 'answers' to why she voted in favor of the war?

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

Sounds vaguely familiar, eh?

Don't you think there is a bit of a difference between a bombing run, and a full scale war?

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

If Obama had been in the senate during the war vote I bet he would have voted absent

Oh look, someone who doesn't understand how the Illinois legislature works. That's quaint.

 

[Guileless]

Rather than Iraq as paper tiger, Edward Said argued that Saddam's Iraq was potentially the direst threat to Israel, and so the Likud elements that control American foreign policy made keeping Iraq weak and helpless the principal aim of American foreign policy.

But you can also argue that corporate false consciousness required a paper tiger for the US to fulminate against in the Middle East (remember The Big Lebowski? I also remember a kid in my junior high had a t-shirt of a fanciful beer label called "Scud Light." ) Certainly the timing of the '98 bombings of Afghanistan and Sudan, in the midst of the Lewinsky scandal, suggests that could be the answer. Who knows.

 

[bob_arctor]

Don't you think there is a bit of a difference between a bombing run, and a full scale war?

Sure, but you're missing the forest from the trees.

 

[APF]

In today's world, can any responsible person not be intimately familiar with the mechanisms of local Illinois politics? I mean, that's almost as absurd as not knowing the makeup of the Duluth Chamber of Commerce, and we all know how anachronistic that would be. Welcome to the 21st century guys!

 

[harSon]

In today's world, can any responsible person not be intimately familiar with the mechanisms of local Illinois politics? I mean, that's almost as absurd as not knowing the makeup of the Duluth Chamber of Commerce, and we all know how anachronistic that would be. Welcome to the 21st century guys!

Then don't talk about it?

 

[bob_arctor]

Then don't talk about it?

He didn't. He said:

If Obama had been in the senate during the war vote I bet he would have voted absent.

He didn't mention Illinois. And anyway, there's this thing called gist. Try to get some.

 

[thekad]

He didn't. He said:

A blatant quip at Obama's Illinois voting record, so...

 

[Juice]

scorcho: Remember the how the Biden-Lugar resolution, which essentially required the president to say "I've decided to go to war" before going to war, was deemed too restrictive? Good looking out, Gephardt!

If we've learned anything from Iraq, let it be this: When someone says "I need the official go-ahead to invade and occupy a country, for the purpose of doing something other than occupying and invading that country", TELL THEM NO. Or at least don't feign surprise when they do just what you authorized them to do.

Had the war gone great, Hillary would be running as a hawkish centrist and crowing about her unflagging support from the beginning. She made a bet and lost. Too bad for her, but a lot of people have greater claim on my sympathy based on what the war's cost them.


whytemyke: That's the point! Actual constructionist judges don't reliably rule the same way the Platonic ideal form of a constructionist judge would, especially in cases where it would clash with their political conservatism. Same deal with the activists.

You have to take political biases into account. At the very least, there are cases like Ledbetter where the justices can just dick someone over with statutory interpretation.

Great post all-around, Mandark.

 

[APF]

Come on, how can you hold a grudge against this guy:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/01/31/sot.clinton.hecklers.cspan