Dedalus said:
What does goal ratio have to do with this argument? If either one of them were to play up front it would be as a supporting striker, Owen is the goalscorer.
Ermm....so? What does Owen have to do with this argument at all? Goalscoring has a lot to do with this argument, as the argument is whether Lampard is a holding midfielder or not. Holding midfielders don't outscore attacking midfielders, yet Lampard outscores Gerrard.
Selective arguments ftl I'm afraid. Lampard also drops deep if Cole is playing so this is a null point.
I don't think I've ever seen Joe Cole play in an England diamond formation, so you must be talking about a 4-4-2. In which case you're still wrong, Lampard is just as attacking if Cole is playing.
Again, goalscoring rate equates to the position you play? Not on discussion here kiddo.
Ermm...yes? Are you seriously trying to tell me that I can't use the amount of goals someone scores, especially in comparison to someone else who you claim is more attacking, to illustratewhether or not they're an attacking or holding player?
That's the whole freaking point! Get the pacifier out of your mouth and try to read the words and not what you want them to mean eh?
No, that isn't the whole freaking point. The point we're arguing is you said Lampard is a holding player, I said he's not:
"
Lampard is a holding player and feels most comfortable there." - you
"
Did you just tell me Lampard is a holding player?" - me
"
Yes you read correctly." - you
"
Since Euro 2004 Lampard has been the solid holding player." - you again
"
Carrick is a holding player. If Lampard was a holding player, there wouldn't be a problem playing him and Gerrard together." - me
"
But it's a simple fact, for England Lampard has always been a holding player at his best." - you
"
He's a midfielder, but for England he plays a holding role mate, get over yourself." - you again
"
Dig up every game Lampard has played for England and you'll find Sven has put him in the hole." - you again again
You then decide, "Oh shit, he's proving me wrong, I better change my argument from saying Lampard is a holding player to saying Lampard and Gerrard alternate between attacking and holding play."
Erm...no. I claimed Lampard plays in the hole for
England and can
do a better job than Gerrard in that position. The whole point of saying that was because of conjecture that Gerrard could play up front. It's my opinion that Gerrard is better, you feel otherwise so stop touting yourself as Lord and Ruler of the Football Knowledge.
I better include what you're talking about here, or it'll be confusing: "You claim Lampard is a holding midfielder, and Gerrard is attacking" is what I said to get that response.
So first of all, let's see which part's a fallacy. Did you say Lampard is a holding midfielder? "Lampard is a holding player and feels most comfortable there." Yes you did. Now maybe you made a mistake and didn't meant to say that. So I ask "Did you just tell me Lampard is a holding player?". You confirm "Yes you read correctly." So that's one point down, you did indeed say Lampard is a holding midfielder.
Now Gerrard. "They (me: talking about Gerrard and Owen) played a lot of club football together with Gerrard playing as an attacking midfielder to link up play." So you've also said Gerrard is an attacking midfielder, at least some of the time. So, how exactly is it a fallacy?
Again, wtf? When were we ever talking about goalscoring ratio? Owen is the goalscorer, and even if Gerrard goes up front it won't be as the main striker it'd be as a linkup player. Seems you don't know much about positional play afterall. Learn to read too.
Attacking midfielders score more goals than holding midfielders, if they're any good anyway. If Gerrard is an attacking midfielder, yet Lampard outscores him, it means one of two things. Either Gerrard is a crap attacking midfielder (which I don't think anyone would claim and you've already said he isn't) or Lampard is also an attacking midfielder.
It's very relevant. I don't understand the Owen thing at all, we're talking about whether or not Lampard is a holding midfielder, not who England's main goalscorer is.
You're right, I should have been more specific (though it is funny that you're quite happy to go ahead and talk about goalscoring when you've got me in the wrong, but apparently it's not relevant when I have a point over you). It's true that Lampard has outscored Gerrard internationally (both on ratio and total, despite Gerrard playign more games), and last season Lampard outscored Gerrard domestically, but yes, Gerrard outscored him this season.
I do feel my point remains though, given that Gerrard scored 7 of his goals in 4 games against the worst opposition imaginable due to having to go through the very earliest Champions League qualifiers. Just the fact that Gerrard scored 7 in 4 tells us how crap they were, so if you take away the piss easy games, then Lampard's on top again.
No need to though if you think I'm just trying to swing things in my favour, that would still just eb a point to Gerrard against at least a couple for Lampard. And even if Gerrard's 23 were all against decent opposition (which they aren't), the fact that Lampard got 20 and was at least within range of him shoudl tell us they're both attacking midfielders.
Even after agreeing that they alternate? It's not always Lampard.
This is in reference to the diamond and Gerrard going to the left and Lampard to the front.
I agreed that Lampard and Gerrard alternate in a 4-4-2. Not in a diamond. They will find themselves in different positions, like any team does in any game regardless of formation, but they won't specifically alternate their position. When playing the diamond, Gerrard plays left, Lampard plays top, Beckham right, a holding player (King or Carrick usually) plays at the back.
This is about me saying Lampard and Gerrard are similar players, and that a holding player and an attacking player compliment each other perfectly.
Ok, first one. Gerrard and Lampard being similar players. I don't even know how you can say this is wrong. They both score a hell of a lot of goals a season from central midfield for their clubs. They both take their clubs free kicks. They both like to burst forward from midfield at every opportunity. They both have great shots, and great passes. They're both better offensively than defensively.
They have slight differences, as you'd expect as they aren't clones. I think Gerrard has the better long range shot. But I think Lampard is the better goal scorer. I think Gerrard is the better defensively. I think Lampard is better at the little touches around the box. Both are still good at all these things I've just mentioned, but one is slightly better than the other.
Regardless, they're extremely similar players. That's why they're alternated.
Secondly, you said that an attacking player and holding player don't compliment each other perfectly. I just...I don't know what to say. Keane and Scholes. Lampard and Makelele. Carrick and Jenas. Gerrard and Alonso. How can you possibly claim that? There are other ways to play, if you so desire, but to say that a holding player and an attacking player in central midfield don't compliment each other perfectly is just ignoring one of the basic traits of football.
What? Seriously what the hell? "they alternate roles, but you wouldn't do that if one was defending and one was attacking....and they're similar players but they still compliment eachother". :lol I feel embarassed for you even trying to form this argument, falling apart before it leaves your fingers.
Wait...what? This needs to be broken down, I think you're very confused. Yes, they alternate roles, we're together so far. Which you wouldn't do if one was attacking and one holding...I would hope we could both agree on that one. And they're similar players...yes, as I've said they are, which is why you alternate them rather than keeping them in seperate positions. But where the hell did you get that I said they compliment each other from? Are you talking about this:
"There are frequent arguments amongst pundits over whether Lampard and Gerrard can play together, because they're such similar players. An attacking and holding player are not the same,
and in fact compliment each other perfectly, so these arguments shouldn't exist if Lampard is holding"
?
If so, you didn't get what I'm saying at all. I was saying Lampard and Gerrard are similar...and IF they were attacking and holding they would compliment each other perfectly, but they're not, which is why the arguments exist.
I can't believe you managed to think that "an attacking and holding player are not the same, in fact they compliment each other perfectly" was referring to Lampard and Gerrard when I'd JUST said that they're similar players (and therefore not attacking and holding).
This is just the Gerrard/Lampard goal scoring thing we've been over.
This is about how when Gerrard can't play they don't bring in another attacking player as they should if Lampard is holding, they bring in a holding player.
I'm trying to see above...but I'm not sure what you're referring to.
What is this the freaking playground? Get out.
Dismiss it if you like, I think showing others are of my opinion while no one seems to be of yours is a point in my favour.
The fact is, you're not arguing with me here, you're disputing real selections and tactics made by Sven. He puts Lampard in the hole, which might be out of position for him, but then Sven has done that a lot. If you can't settle on that fact then stay away from me. Your failure to even construct an argument with facts is appalling.
If anyone hasn't contructed an argument, it's you. You keep telling me Lampard plays in the hole, but you don't have anything to back that up. I have lots to back mine up.
You think Lampard is better attacking, well fair enough. I think Gerrard is better. But don't try and dispute fact and real selection policy, it's embarassing.
I agree, no need to argue over who we think is better (though it could be a fun debate), I think either of them would do a good job.
We're arguing about a lot of things now. The
main thing we're arguing though, the very heart of this argument, is whether or not Lampard is a holding midfielder. You can go back through the thread and look for yourself, you said outright that he is, it was not until later on that you started arguing that you meant he sometimes plays there for England and alternates with Gerrard, which STILL doesn't make Lampard a holding midfielder, it just means he's forced to play there sometimes as Gerrard is because they're both attacking midfielders and can't both spend the whole game around the opposition's penalty area.
This is getting so long, can we please break it down to a few important points? Fell free to add yor own if you think I'm missing any:
- You said Lampard is a holding midfielder, I said he's not.
- You then say Lampard and Gerrard alternate, I've never disputed that.
- Saying that Gerrard and Lampard alternate in no way backs up your point that Lampard is a holding midfielder, if anything it goes against it, because you wouldn't have a holding player go forward and an attacking player holding. It'd be like telling Carrick to play behind the attack while Jenas defends, no one would do it.
I think those are probably the three main points. Please, I beg you, don't pretend that the argument isn't about whether or not Lampard is a holding midfielder. That is the heart of it. You can follow it through the thread. If you think the argument is whether or not Sven alternates him with Gerrard, then there is no argument, because that is absolutely true and I don't deny it, so there would be no one to argue with.
