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[Septimius]

Similar back ground here. I think the SE Asian beating works for us, it knocks out the shitty tantrums and builds character. My mom also stopped after I was 10 for some reason and never did it again. My aunts and uncles slapped me around whenever I was being a shithead as a kid. I think its great for our background and culture. For WYPIPO...not sure.

Culture doesn't really excuse it, either. I'm happy you feel no lasting effects, but anecdotes like these has nothing on 20 years of studies.

 

[Draft]

Well it did for generations, so the only question is does it work as well as other forms of discipline.

 

[Mixolydian]

I've never laid a hand on my son, and he excels in school, is well adjusted, and has the kindest heart of anyone I know.

My father constantly whooped me, and the difference between my son and I in temperament is HUGE. I'm quick to blow my top (Not in front of him), get pretty confrontational, have trouble with anxiety in simple altercations while my son is far more rational. He's my fucking hero man.

Everyone has an anecdote. There's mine, but IMO, don't ever fucking physically discipline you're kid.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

The chances of it turning out poorly are much higher than the chances it'll lead to a respectful and kind child.

It's an easy way out for parents who lack the time or inclination to explain choices and consequences to their kids.

 

[tebunker]

I was never hit. I mean, there was barely any discipline at all in my household. Other parents also loved having me over. My best friend's father, the first time I was at his dad's house, drove me home and talked with my parents. "He is such a lovely boy". "He talks like a priest". My parents thanked him, but they don't really see that as an achievement. They knew I just understood that this was a parent that valued those things, and I acted accordingly.

But, your metrics are extremely short-sighted. A child's well-being has shit all to do with how quiet they are at the mall. Overbearing prejudice towards all noisy kids at the mall is a stupid trait, and over-generalizing like you do is the same. Striking a child until it doesn't dare be noisy is quite different from making your child understand what respect is, and why you don't run around like that in a mall. If your main metric is that they "behave themselves", you're suppressing literally all other emotions your children have. I mean, most dog behaviourists don't even encourage this kind of discipline metric in a dog.

We try to always explain to our why their bad behavior is unacceptable. It is difficult as hell to do.

We do not spank our kids or hit them. I have held my kids by the shoulders to keep them focused on me while explaining things. I usually try to get down to their eye level and use a stern voice.

We also yell at our kids when we're at our wits ends. We know its not perfect but when you've had it you've had it. I still won't hit my kids. They know that. They also know and have seen me be very angry and disappointed with their behavior. I try to immediately follow that initial anger up with calm discussion and discourse. Like hey I am fed up with your shit, and now we're gonna talk about why calmly.

I let my kids act out some too. Talk about how it is okay to be upset and yell sometimes etc. Then we talk about better ways to handle their shit.

I am hopeful it is sinking in. It's hard to see it some days, but we get a lot of compliments on our boys behavior so there's that.

I was spanked by my dad more than my mom growing up. Mom threatened but rarely followed through unless it was for the worst of circumstances. My Dad learned his behavior from his dad. I picked up the yelling and temper from him. Its a work in process to get better. Ultimately my Dad stopped by the time I was ~12. Mom told him to cut it out. His relationships and family happiness improved mightily from there.

I think kids are going to act out regardless. How you handle it ultimately is what helps guide them to be better. Because I have seen plenty of kids who got whooped by parents still end up horrible people.

I had a coworker who really struggled with this with her husband. He relied on the passage, spare the rod spoil the child, thinking spanking is good for their kid, she always interpreted it as spare the fishing rod you spoil child, in that if you ignore your child and what they think and say, they become spoiled, but if you take a fishing rod and go fishing and talk and do things together then they learn from you....

 

[br3wnor]

My mom only spanked me a few times and then stopped cold turkey when I was like 3 or 4. My dad never hit me, him yelling was enough to keep us in line.

I don’t have any intentions of hitting my kids but I also don’t have kids and as my friends have kids I see how stressful it can be and how tiring it is, so I hope to keep a cool enough head to never lay a hand on them.

I do plan to be extremely strict when it comes to punishment though, such as time outs w/ no sort of entertainment for an entire night if they’re bad enough or if they really fuck up, not letting them sleep over friends houses or do anything not related to school/family for a few months. That’s something I wish my parents had done more of as I think it could have made me take full advantage of my academic ability during High School which could have lead to a quicker path to a good career. (Didn’t get my shit together until I was 25)

 

[Septimius]

2. You should be afraid of people you love and that's normal. Fearing people close to you, expecting to be physically hurt for mistakes you make is a part of life.

It's more sinister than that. It makes them insecure. Fear is not the same as respect. It's just a shitty way to pretend you have respect.

 

[Cess007]

Well it did for generations, so the only question is does it work as well as other forms of discipline.

Pretty much. Generations around the world grew up with it and it worked. Of course, it didn't work every single time for every single person, but saying that it doesn't work is a lie.

 

[exYle]

I don't think that's quite fair. Most parents that hit their kids are doing it because its what they were taught as a child. If you felt it worked for you as a child you'll most likely do it as a parent. If you hated it and hate your parents you won't.

If they only do it because it was done to them that's pretty fucking demonstrative of a severe lack of creativity

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Well it did for generations, so the only question is does it work as well as other forms of discipline.

Well, research says no, so...

 

[mattwhite924]

I think it depends on a number of things. Some kids it might work better on than others, and I think it also depends on the parent. If they're using physical punishment out of anger, then I don't think that works.

I was generally a good kid, but I got spanked on occasion. Whenever my mom felt it was necessary she would make sure to calm down before doing it. She'd also explain why she was doing it. It was never a first punishment, and it had to be something pretty bad for it to even be considered.

I found out after becoming and adult that she would cry after spanking me. She hated doing it, but she felt it was for my own good in the long run. I think in my case it worked. If something got to the point that I got spanked, then I would tend to not do it again. I think her explaining why something was against the rules, or why what I did was wrong, helped a lot too.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

There is nor evidence of God and yet people keep believing on it.

j/k

I stand for how my life has developed given the educational model my parents.

Guys, I'm not talking about a reiterative beating. I'm talking about extreme situations when kids don't listen to their parents despite all the 'reasonable' talking, or even grounding.

if you personally turned out okay, it's likely in spite of your parents disciplinary methods, not because of them. There is no evidence to suggest that physical violence (which even a "corrective slap" falls under) is a good method of discipline for anyone, let alone impressionable children. I was spanked as a child too, and I think my parents legitimately thought it was the right thing, but it almost always happened as a reaction. They were angry in the moment at whatever it was that I had done and lashed out. And I can't say I really learned anything from it outside of being afraid of my parents, which is shitty, and probably wasn't their intent.

 

[SamVimes]

Well, research says no, so...

This is the one topic that will get half of gaf to ignore studies in favor of anecdotes.

 

[Sai-kun]

nah, imo

my parents' disappointment in me was always a much bigger motivator to be a better person than any kind of physical abuse could ever be, I think.

 

[Extra Sauce]

If you beat your child using another one of your child as a weapon, it counts as a siblings fight instead of child abuse.

The More You Know

 

[Madness]

Absolutely not, you are teaching them that violence solves problems.

Or actions have consequences. I am not talking abiut physical abuse, but this recent trend of zero corporal punishment as the be all end all just doesn't work at times. There were a lot of kids I knew who didn't deserve to be hit, there were also a lot of kids who did tons of bad stuff becahse their parents didn't care, knew their punishment was nothing more than a stern talking to. I am not an expert for anything but spankings do work and have a place in disciplining your children. Again, I think people should worry more about their own lives than theoretical situations for others. I also think, as OP pointed out, you will see differences between white people and peoole of colour on this issue.

Russell Peters had a really good skit on this in his routine between him as a kid and his white friend in Ontario who was not disciplined.

 

[Norfair]

No. And spoiled and physical abuse have nothing to do with each other. Here's a good article based on 20 years of research on the subject:

http://www.cmaj.ca/content/184/12/1373.short

Yup, I was going to post this.

I put my daughter in a time out, let her sit there for a bit then discuss what she did wrong when we're both calmer.

I've always had the feeling that spanking was more for the parent to let off steam then for the kids benefit.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

I'm not a parent and I won't even bother sharing my own experience growing up, but for those of you who are: Do you ever try to make your children feel bad by demonstrating that you're extremely disappointed and hurt, where you're on the verge of tears because of what they've done? I wonder how successful that is.

 

[Rad-]

When I did something my mom put me on timeout for 2-3 hours (so basically just sit on a sofa doing absolutely nothing) and that worked for me. Around 1 hour mark it already felt like hell to me. During the timeouts she would randomly pop in and ask what I think of the problem situation now.

 

[Bustanen]

Got spanked and my hair pulled when I misbehaved and it worked. But I would never do that if I had kids.

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

I've said this on gaf before, nope. My father absolutely battered me growing up for the tiniest thing I did or stuff he decided I did, and it didn't work, I'm still a cunt.

 

[Northernlights]

Me and my siblings all got physical punishment as children. It was only when something we did warranted it though. Maybe once or twice a year at most. I don't hold any grudges against my parents for it and I actually appreciate them for it.

 

[The Futurist]

Culture doesn't really excuse it, either. I'm happy you feel no lasting effects, but anecdotes like these has nothing on 20 years of studies.

Culture may not excuse it, but it definitely makes a difference.

I'm a 20 year case study myself. As are dozens of people I personally know. For most of the people in this culture, it did work.

 

[Messofanego]

I come from a south Asian family. Indian to be specific.

Growing up my mom used to hit me when I misbehaved. I think culturally that is pretty normal for us, or it used to be. Not sure what the deal is now.

It was always my mom. Never, not ever in my life did my dad hit me, spank me, or anything. Always seemed weird, but that's just how it was. Again, very similar situation for many brown people I personally know.

I guess now you're wondering how bad the hitting was. Well, I got hit with slaps, sandals, the occasional belt or hanger. Never severe enough to leave any marks or scars. Not beaten until I was bloody or lying in the corner broken. Yes it hurt at the time, but if asked if I could think of one specific time where it was really bad, I can't. It was just all throughout childhood and only when I actually did something that warranted punishment.

Flash forward 20 plus years and I turned out fine by any normal standards. Have a great job, earn more than a human probably should, and I think I'm pretty well adjusted. Never gotten into any kind of trouble as an adult. Never gotten into a serious fight. I guess since it was always my mother that hit me as a child and never my father, I don't personally ever see the urge to hit a child.

I'm not some weird case either. My brothers got hit, my cousins got hit, pretty much every other brown kid I knew got hit by their mothers and just about everyone turned out great. Almost all professionals in various fields (although that's also a cultural thing). Well adjusted human beings contributing to society.

Is there a balance somewhere?

I personally don't think children are punished enough these days. All I see everywhere are entitled spoiled brats. Not just brown people because I think the culturally there is still a somewhat heavy hand when it comes to punishments.

I come from a South Asian family and at most I was hit five times in my life. The hitting didn't make me better, just made me more fearful and resentful of my parents. There is zero evidence that physical punishments helps in improving children. There is plenty of evidence of it doing the opposite. You can discipline children without resorting to physical violence. Often what happens is the violence becomes passed down, it becomes a cycle of violence because it's so normalised so when the child becomes a parent they mimic how their parents' methods were, and it causes bad family relationships.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

I've said this on gaf before, nope. My father absolutely battered me growing up for the tiniest thing I did or stuff he decided I did, and it didn't work, I'm still a cunt.

Maybe it's because you were TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared.

Also many of you would do well to actually use your imagination and think about how you'd respond if your boss beat your ass for missing deadlines or fucking up at work. The feelings you'd develop as a result are assuredly the same feelings a child develops, yet you wouldn't accept that at all, would you?

Please stop using anecdotes to suggest that beating children is effective. I had my ass handed to me growing up and it most definitely made me an angrier, anxiety-riddled person. I don't dislike my parents for that and they largely regret treating me and my brother that way, but it certainly shaped my character for worse.

 

[Fbh]

No.
I mean, my mom would very rarely pull my ears sometimes when I was a kid . But aside from that my parents were never violent and I was a pretty well behaved kid and teen .


I admit I've seen some spoiled brats which got me thinking "man that kid needs a beating".... But usually kids become such spoiler brats because they havent been raised correctly, not because of a lack of physical violence.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Or actions have consequences. I am not talking abiut physical abuse, but this recent trend of zero corporal punishment as the be all end all just doesn't work at times. There were a lot of kids I knew who didn't deserve to be hit, there were also a lot of kids who did tons of bad stuff becahse their parents didn't care, knew their punishment was nothing more than a stern talking to. I am not an expert for anything but spankings do work and have a place in disciplining your children. Again, I think people should worry more about their own lives than theoretical situations for others. I also think, as OP pointed out, you will see differences between white people and peoole of colour on this issue.

Russell Peters had a really good skit on this in his routine between him as a kid and his white friend in Ontario who was not disciplined.

Scientific research indicates otherwise. I'm not sure a comedy skit counter balances that. You can teach people that actions have consequences without resorting to physical violence. If corporal punishment works, why don't aren't we okay with it between adults? In the workplace? Between spouses?

 

[Septimius]

Or actions have consequences. I am not talking abiut physical abuse, but this recent trend of zero corporal punishment as the be all end all just doesn't work at times. There were a lot of kids I knew who didn't deserve to be hit, there were also a lot of kids who did tons of bad stuff becahse their parents didn't care, knew their punishment was nothing more than a stern talking to. I am not an expert for anything but spankings do work and have a place in disciplining your children. Again, I think people should worry more about their own lives than theoretical situations for others. I also think, as OP pointed out, you will see differences between white people and peoole of colour on this issue.

The issue I have with this is that you think it's somehow OK to escalate something to a physical level without it being self-defense. It is against the law to hit another person, no matter what they're saying to you in a confrontation. Don't think there's anything special about it being your kid. You don't have any more of a right to strike them. That's my moral stance. Your kids aren't *yours* to hit. They're people, and while some countries may not have outlawed it, they should be treated with the same rights as other people when it comes to not being subjected to violence.

If corporal punishment works, why don't aren't we okay with it between adults? In the workplace? Between spouses?

Exactly.

 

[Mr-Joker]

I was a naughty kid so I was smacked by both my parents, sometime with a slipper and guess what?

It didn't work as I still would get into trouble and all smacking did was made me cry over the pain and did not teach me that what I did was wrong. My mother once had to be told to calm down when she was smacking me after I kicked a hold in the garden fence. sending me to my room and taking away my toys would have been a better punishment.

Any parents that resort to smacking to discipline their kids have terrible parenting skills when it comes to disciplining their kids and I won't be continuing that cycle when it comes to my kids.

 

[Shin K Dash]

Hitting your kids is a gamble that your parental relationship is strong and loving enough to form the requisite resilience to the trauma you're exposing them to.

Basically, if you're a super involved parent that's caring and affirming, you're effectively using corporal punishment as a last-straw strategy to exemplify the extent of the trouble that your kid is in. If you're cold and neglectful, and still hit your kid, you're an abuser.

this probably the best way of putting imo.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Culture may not excuse it, but it definitely makes a difference.

I'm a 20 year case study myself. As are dozens of people I personally know. For most of the people in this culture, it did work.

Why Physical Punishment Does Not Work

Physical punishment is a major public health problem in this country. Approximately 60% of adults still approve of physical punishment, despite compelling evidence that it does not work, it makes things worse, and there are effective alternatives.

Physical punishment involves the use of physical force with the intention of causing the child to experience bodily pain or discomfort so as to correct or punish the child's behavior. This includes spanking, hitting, pinching, paddling, whipping, slapping, and so on.

Spanking is a euphemism for hitting. One is not permitted to hit one's spouse or a stranger; these actions are considered assault and battery. Why in the world should one be permitted to hit a smaller and even more vulnerable child?

Studies show that children who are hit identify with the aggressor and are more likely to become hitters themselves, i.e. bullies and future abusers of their children and spouses. They tend to learn to use violent behavior as a way to deal with disputes.

If hitting a child is not wrong, then nothing is wrong.

The data in this area have recently been summarized by Elizabeth Gershoff (Report on Physical Punishment in the United States, 2008) and Susan Bitensky (Corporal Punishment of Children, 2006). The evidence shows that physical punishment is stunningly deleterious at every developmental level.

Meta-analyses of hundreds of studies document that physical punishment is associated with: verbal and physical aggression; delinquent, antisocial, and criminal behavior; poorer quality of parent-child relationships; impaired mental health; and later abuse of one's own spouse and children.

Internationally, there is increasing consensus that physical punishment of children violates international human rights laws.

 

[Littlefang]

I can obviously only speak of my experience and the people that grew up around me, but I've seen plenty of cases where taking away a toy or a time out didn't work.

Kids who weren't disciplined enough and grew up to be complete fuck ups.

What do you do when words aren't enough?

I think at that point you take your kid to a professional that can find out if there is something wrong.

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

Maybe it's because you were TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared.

Yes

Absolutely wrecked any chance of building any self confidence or esteem I could possibly have had too, or any chance of making friends. It's terrible parenting.

 

[CSJ]

Absolutely not, you are teaching them that violence solves problems.

The sad thing is adults in governments and other such around the world choose violence to solve their/edit: certain problems. However as much as I think some little shits need a slap, I would never do that.

 

[Shrike_Priest]

In this thread:
Anecdotal bullshit saying it works.
Actual studies showing it doesn’t.

I’m from a country were spanking has been illegal for 50 years. We’re a pretty well behaved bunch.

There’s no middle ground. The risks of negative outcomes far outweigh the potential positive ones.

If you hit your children, you’ve failed. If you aren’t a parent but you support the idea, you’re enabling abuse. Stop doing that.

Parent too, btw.

 

[Mixolydian]

Yes

Absolutely wrecked any chance of building any self confidence or esteem I could possibly have had too, or any chance of making friends. It's terrible parenting.

Bet you and I could swap some stories brother. I feel you on that.

 

[Hari Seldon]

There definitely needs to be some discipline, but you can obtain it without physical punishment. I have a cousin whose kids are so fucking bad that their grandmother refuses to let them in her house lol. They are hippies and never even tell their kids no for anything. That is ridiculous. For young kids taking away toys, completely ignoring them when they throw tantrums, timeouts, and using a "serious" low voice seems to work fine for me. For older kids I imagine I will be changing my wifi password and taking away electronics quite a bit haha.

 

[shandy706]

Beating a child isn't about teaching them anything, it's about making your pathetic cowardly ass feel better.

A child who is beat as punishment learns
1. If something or someone bothers or upsets you, the proper response is to use violence. The kids I deal with at school who punch and kick other kids over petty meaningless conflicts, are the ones getting beat at home.
2. You should be afraid of people you love and that's normal. Fearing people close to you, expecting to be physically hurt for mistakes you make is a part of life.

I was almost always spanked as a kid when I misbehaved. My grandmother would even make you go pick out a "switch" from the garden if you didn't "act right", lol.

I never at any point in time developed the above two points.

My father, after spanking me, always sat me down and explained why I was spanked, and what I needed to do to change my attitude/ways. Never felt unloved or had any fear of my parents. I did, however, behave afterward..shrug. Never got in a fight in school. Never was part of any violence in my 34 years. Never rebelled, never tried a single drug, never even got detention in school. I was an honors student from 7th grade to 12th.

I'm not saying it's ok, I'm just saying I am one of those kids...and I know my entire generation (and those before it) were spanked a ton.


Now it had no affect on my brother. He still got in trouble, still smoked weed. Still got arrested for a DUI...etc...haha. So it's really incredibly random on how well it works in my small experience. With my 2 daughters the threat of spanking works on the oldest. The threat of spanking does not work on the youngest, you have to take things from her that she values.

 

[Acyl]

I don't think that's quite fair. Most parents that hit their kids are doing it because its what they were taught as a child. If you felt it worked for you as a child you'll most likely do it as a parent. If you hated it and hate your parents you won't.

I guess. I think it just depends on what people are imagining when you bring up physical punishment. I don't know about these days, but French culture is often referenced as it can be common to give your child a single smack in the grocery store if they are misbehaving and nobody thinks twice about it if they see it.

But taking out your belt and beating your kid senseless because they knocked over the neighbor's mailbox, yeah no.

 

[Septimius]

Culture may not excuse it, but it definitely makes a difference.

I'm a 20 year case study myself. As are dozens of people I personally know. For most of the people in this culture, it did work.

You have absolutely no foundation to base this off of. It's anecdotal. Self-examined follow-up on something like being hit as a kid doesn't work. You need statistics to see what it does. Sure, you may be more "disciplined", and your grades may go up, but does that matter if mortality rates are 20% higher among those that are hit? Or if they aren't as happy?

Cherry picking metrics to absolve your parents by is a good way to accept your upbringing, but please don't subject that as "proof that hitting your children works". It just perpetuates what all research shows is a bad idea, and hides it behind culturally acceptable excuses for how it works.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

Yes

Absolutely wrecked any chance of building any self confidence or esteem I could possibly have had too, or any chance of making friends. It's terrible parenting.

I feel you. I developed the same issues. It wasn't until my early twenties that I started to change because I got out of the house more and interacted with people. Before that I was sheltered and abused for relatively miniscule things; however, I still maintain anxiety issues.

 

[hydragonwarrior]

I think i got yelled at or spanked (I think spanking only happened when I was in like kindergarten or something). But for the most part I feared getting yelled at the most and it was effective - my mom had a hella temper that just via words you would shake in fear.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I was spanked a ton as a kid when I misbehaved. My grandmother would even make you go pick out a "switch" from the garden if you didn't "act right", lol.

I never at any point in time developed the above two points.

My father, after spanking me, always sat me down and explained why I was spanked, and what I needed to do to change my attitude/ways. Never felt unloved or had any fear of my parents. I did, however, behave afterward..shrug.

Never got in a fight in school. Never was part of any violence in my 34 years. Never rebelled, never tried a single drug, never even got detention in school. I was an honors student from 7th grade to 12th.

I'm not saying it's ok, I'm just saying I am one of those kids...and I know my entire generation (and those before it) were spanked a ton.

And modern, current research shows it was totally unnecessary.

 

[sphagnum]

If you hit your kids you're an ignorant piece of shit.

 

[sensui-tomo]

i see some people bringing this up in some ancedotal stuff in there past, but isnt yelling at a child also abusive (mental abuse or whatever?)

 

[The Futurist]

You have absolutely no foundation to base this off of. It's anecdotal. Self-examined follow-up on something like being hit as a kid doesn't work. You need statistics to see what it does. Sure, you may be more "disciplined", and your grades may go up, but does that matter if mortality rates are 20% higher among those that are hit? Or if they aren't as happy?

Cherry picking metrics to absolve your parents by is a good way to accept your upbringing, but please don't subject that as "proof that hitting your children works". It just perpetuates what all research shows is a bad idea, and hides it behind culturally acceptable excuses for how it works.

I'm not really arguing for hitting kids.

I'm just saying what I've seen and experienced.

If you hit your kids you're an ignorant piece of shit.

These guys in modern times are the best.

Guess what? If you were a parent 30-40 years ago, you would most likely be an ignorant piece of shit as well.

 

[Rhomega Beta]

How do you think teachers get 10+ children all under control at once without smacking them?

That's actually another point. One could argue that teachers could keep kids in line by paddling them, but now you can't keep order at all.

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

i see some people bringing this up in some ancedotal stuff in there past, but isnt yelling at a child also abusive (mental abuse or whatever?)

I think so (I don't have kids for the record). But then I dunno, maybe some actual parents in here can say how that works for them.

 

[Doc_Drop]

More important than discipline is the teaching to prevent misbehaving

Obviously kids will push boundaries and you also aren't in control of a child's societal input 24hrs a day.

But a kid tantrumming out at a mall or shop points towards a lack of teaching not a lack of discipline

 

[shandy706]

And modern, current research shows it was totally unnecessary.

Probably true. I was, and am, a laid back person that never looks for trouble or causes any.

Can't say how much of an influence it had on my "behavior" in the long run I suppose.

i see some people bringing this up in some ancedotal stuff in there past, but isnt yelling at a child also abusive (mental abuse or whatever?)

I'd consider verbal abuse 1000% worse than a quick pop on the butt to get someones attention.

I'd also put screaming at a kid in the same category as literally "beating" a kid out of anger. It's easy to tell who the beating/screaming parents are in public typically.