Because people don't give a shit about the driver. Sweet Tooth is the car.
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Playstation All Stars Battle Royale Discussion thread [Up: Leakfest #11]
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Because people don't give a shit about the driver. Sweet Tooth is the car.
corporate cheerleader
Member
This wouldn't be a bad approach:
- Before announcing famous third party characters, show significant proof through detailed footage or even a beta (PS+ exclusive, har) that the combat is rock-solid and that there is a lot of gameplay variety and uniqueness to push itself away from the 'Smash Bros. clone' image. This will build hype for a very long time before Cloud and Snake are even announced.
- 1 character a game, or maybe 2 if their gameplay is so different that no one with half a brain would consider them clones.
- Let the game evolve for a while after release and work on a DLC expansion pack in the meantime. Add (clone) characters and some stages to please the fans.
Bam. Success.
Well, you only know of 6 characters, so maybe the character you can think of are already in the game
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
That is so incredibly wrong. The Twisted Metal fan base was furious that the new game focused more on the cars and less on the drivers.
Something tells me you aren't a Twisted Metal fan.
I would take out Robbit and the Chimera and replace with:
Jennifer "Jen" Tate
She fills the need for more females and has a very unique design
Rau or Tati
Either one filling the need for a female again or adding another "Heavy" like Sweet Tooth to the list
Huh. I stand corrected. I guess rare holds full right of KI then?
Come on. Are you serious? Mario characters beyond Mario aren't padding, they're just as important to the Mario series as Mario himself, and many of them have their own spinoff games or even series. They don't include multiple characters from the same series because they have to to get a decently-sized roster, they do it because they're popular characters who often present interesting gameplay possibilities.
You don't have to put down Smash to express your excitement for this game. Smash is great. This game looks like it could be great. Nintendo and Sony both have sizable rosters to choose from.
Smash's character selection does a pretty good job with both breadth and depth. As far as this game goes, they should probably go more for breadth. But the second time around, assuming it turns out to be good? Go for a bit more depth, start filling up the roster a bit with multiple characters from different franchises. Throw in Zeus, Dollface, Sully, Daxter and Clank as their own characters, Captain Qwark and Dr. Nefarious, Murray and Bentley, Um Jammer Lammy, whatever.
Yeah, I hope they avoid having an clones *cue joke about the whole game being a clone. har har*
I also agree with 1 character per series for the first game. Save others for sequels. Although I say that, and then think of how awesome Captain Quark and Dr. Nefarious could be for a game like this lol.
I also agree with 1 character per series for the first game. Save others for sequels. Although I say that, and then think of how awesome Captain Quark and Dr. Nefarious could be for a game like this lol.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Quark is in the game, just not playable. You see him on the Ratchet and Clank stage running and then getting knocked off stage by the Hydra. Then he comes back and gets trapped in the Hydras mouth and you see him trying to hold the jaw open so he can escape. On the Sandover Village stage you can see Keira too but I don't think she does anything.
One character per franchise sounds good for this first installment of the game but hopefully we'll see more characters on the stages doing stuff.
I agree with your general point here, although I will mention that I've always been kinda annoyed at how much of Smash's roster is taken up by Mario characters, which I find to be the least interesting. I mean, 5 out of 25 characters in Melee were Mario characters. I guess it just bothers me because I don't like Mario as much as most other Nintendo games, but at least they all play differently (except Maro/Dr. Mario). The bigger problem is when you have 3 characters who are identical (Fox, Falco, Wolf). It's definitely something I hope they avoid in PBR.
Though people do want the drivers, the cars themselves have an equal part in their popularity. It's not one or the other; it's both. In context of this game, it should be understandable why people feel Sweet Tooth is a little off. PASBR gives center stage to him and the dude is basically designed to be a juggalo. It's gross! Juggalos are the worst.
Not to say he doesn't belong, but he's definitely a necessary blemish to a potentially amazing roster.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
But Sweet Tooth has his truck as his super. This game is giving the Twisted Metal fans both with Sweet Tooth. I don't think those guys are upset.
And as a general rule of thumb - and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular - if you are not a fan of the series the character is from you don't really have a say in if they incorporated the character properly OR to assume that there is not a fan following.
His Level 3 super has him going into the mech form of his truck wouldn't that be considered giving a nod toward the vehicle as well? I personally can't see how they would use his vehicle in combat anymore then the way it is represented now.
Schobeleth
Member
I mentioned in a previous post how I keep scratching my head over all these talented, veteran fighter devs. and players who have gone dev., that are on their team and have agreed to supers being the only method of KOing people. I guess they know what's working for their game so they're going with it but I just can't see how it's balanced.
Whenever I played SSBB we ALWAYS turned off the smash balls because they made everything incredibly unbalanced. I guess it's not right to compare that to the super meter because one is pure chance and the other takes work to fill up but still - the concept remains the same.
A lot of people are liking the super meter thing and I like it too but there's one fundamental flaw with it - you can only KO with supers. The impressions video from Gametrailers had the two guys praising it but also voicing concerns - one of which is how environmental hazards are no longer a real threat if there's no hit points, unless they make all environmental hazards instant KO you, which would make every level incredibly unfair.
For this type of game they need to implement hit points and other ways of KOing people otherwise there will be no real danger for people outside of supers and a few environmental hazards, like answering a Buzz question wrong or getting bitten by the fish in the Sandover Village level.
Is Captain Falcon out of place in Smash Bros? He's just a driver as well in his own games.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Also Twisted Metal fans have been clamoring for a Twisted Metal game where part of it is played as Sweet Tooth on foot. There is actually gameplay footage of a scrapped version of such a game by Jaffe and company.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub6kZS22gQU&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub6kZS22gQU&feature=relmfu
Actually funilly enough, as someone who isn't a Sony diehard in the slightest, the unique KO system is the only reason I haven't written off the game yet. Sure the system could end up backfiring completely but smashclones with healthbars usully just end up feeling uninspired and soulless
Ofcourse they could always include a HP mode as an option but then again smash did that too and it was shit because the game wasn't balanced around it (that and the amount of HP was fixed at too low a value). The game's been in developement for 2 and a half years already and only has about half a year left. At this stage it's too late for such a foundational shake up.
SentientStone
Member
Okay, I really hope they add some joke characters in like Kaz (please include a Riiiiidge Racer taunt or move where he summons the cars) or Kevin Butler.
Twisted Metal is a popular, long-running franchise. Sweet Tooth is the most recognizable character from that franchise, basically the series mascot. He's been on the box of every game. I recognized the clown with the flaming head before I ever even owned a Playstation or played a Twisted Metal game.
Yeah, in the games he's from, you play as his vehicle and never actually as him. That didn't stop Captain Falcon from being a great character.
Yeah, in the games he's from, you play as his vehicle and never actually as him. That didn't stop Captain Falcon from being a great character.
I know this. It's his super, yes, this is established. This does not change the fact that the focus has been placed on the character, Sweet Tooth, rather than the whole package.
Let's use Axel as an example: They wouldn't seperate him from his vehicle for story reasons; he's as much of a person as he is the car. He's a messed up hybrid. In a lot of ways, people see Sweet Tooth as the same thing. Yes, there are no story reasons keeping him attached to his truck, but he might as well be. It's so ingrained after all these years that, to us, they are inseparable.
Letting the character be as he is now in PASBR leaves him open to some criticism, mainly of how intentionally awful he is as a character. I already made the point the he's designed like a juggalo, but his other qualities such as being a nonredeemable, murdering psychopath only hurts his image as a whole. This is what TM games have always been about; a rogues list of people with severe problems dropped in a world where vehicular combat is king.
I get why they have to separate him from his vehicle in this game; I get why he is needed in this roster. Why don't you guys understand why people, TM fan or not, wouldn't like him either way? I feel like I've explained my point more than I had to.
I made a point about the separation from his vehicle and his overall design as a character. Your reply only focus on the former.
I went more in depth right above if you feel like responding to that instead.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Only getting a KO with supers is far from a fundamental flaw. Not gonna rewrite everything but pretty much every fear someone has brought up about this has been well countered by someone else. Obviously these guys being big time people in the fighter genre know what they have is working like you said, and the people who have played it are enjoying it.
Though I do agree that the environmental hazards a little weak. That can be tweaked easily. To counter your fear that they aren't a real threat since you have no hit points, that's not true. In this game your super meter is analogous to hit points. When you get hit by environmental hazards you lose progression on your meter and that is just as good as bringing you one step closer to death. And a few environmental hazards do actually KO you.
A fictional character like Kevin Butler is probably a more reasonable choice then the CEO of Sony :lol
Schobeleth
Member
I just heard in another interview about that, it's been in development for that long.. I guess I'll just have to swallow my concerns and remain hopeful. I looks really solid and fun I just hope they really get the balancing - the fact that Parappa's level 3 super is guaranteed to kill everyone is really lame. --- My main gripe is not being able to KO with normal attacks, only through a super.
I never even mentioned Captain Falcon, which is why I find it funny.
For the curious, my initial opinion on him is this: "Oh he's the driver from F-Zero? Okay then, whatever, that's cool I guess."
I have more to say about Sweet Tooth because I played more TM than I did F-Zero games. I don't think the latter even characterized their cast as much as the former did. Definitely a silly comparison.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Are you a Twisted Metal fan? Because the Twisted Metal fans I talked to are all really hyped about how they implemented Sweet Tooth.
And if you want me to comment on his overall design as a character, there is nothing wrong with it. Him being a murderous psychopath clown does not hurt his image at all, that exactly who he has always been and what the fans remember him as. And they like it. And they absolutely love all his cutscenes where focus is on Sweet Tooth (or should I say Needles Kane) the person and not the vehicle. Not saying the vehicle isn't important, just that there is a big appeal for both Sweet Tooth as a person and as a driver.
If anyone not a Twisted Metal fan has a problem with how he's implemented in this game well they can go cry in a corner. The way he's implemented is not designed to appeal to you, it's designed to appeal to the actual fans. If it just so happens to appeal to you as well then great, if not then move along.
Ploid 3.0
Member
Dude give it up, just say you don't care about Sweet Tooth and be done with it. To me Sweet Tooth has always been the clown. All of the Twisted Metal characters has been the drivers. The cars are just their tools. The cars aren't there in front of Calypso giving him their wish and having it flipped around on them, that would look stupid. Go sit down and take a break.
It's not even worth discussing anymore. It seems like your point will always be related to this question: "Are you a Twisted Metal fan?" Which, from what I've gathered, actually translates to: "Are you a Twisted Metal fan that likes everything about it, no questions asked?"
Yes I am; No I'm not.
Also, who's "they?" "They" seems to be the consensus for TM fans in your argument.
Yes I am; No I'm not.
Also, who's "they?" "They" seems to be the consensus for TM fans in your argument.
Well said!
You've overexplained your point because your point has no traction. We've seen Sweet Tooth out of his car plenty of times in the cinematic/story elements of the games and on advertisements etc. It's a car combat game, but Sweet Tooth is a character -- an iconic, humanoid character.
In contrast, the most we got out of Captain Falcon was an avatar of him as the driver of the blue hovercar.
It's a valid, and quite applicable comparison because both are drivers and it goes to show you that you can take a driver out of his car and create a very lovable and effective fighting game character. Sweet Tooth has a distinct advantage over pre-smash Captain Falcon in that Sweet Tooth was actually an iconic character in the series.
Including Sweet Tooth in this game is a no-brainer -- it's an excellent choice.
You could even buy a toy of Sweet Tooth. Not his car, but him. http://www.toymania.com/news/messages/3027.shtml. Sweet Tooth himself has been on more game covers than his car has.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Let's put it this way, every series is going to have different types of fans. They can't possibly appeal to them all in something like this, so they have to choose to appeal to the biggest bunch of them. And that bunch just happens to be the people who like everything about it including the characters as people outside the vehicles as well, so this is great for them.
I'm sorry that the way the implemented him isn't working for you, but if you were only a fan of the car combat and not the characters then yeah you're right, it's not even worth discussing anymore. Just don't play as Sweet Tooth, maybe they'll have a Twisted Metal stage that focuses on the car combat.
You've overexplained your point because your point has no traction. We've seen Sweet Tooth out of his car plenty of times in the cinematic/story elements of the games and on advertisements etc. It's a car combat game, but Sweet Tooth is a character -- an iconic, humanoid character.
In contrast, the most we got out of Captain Falcon was an avatar of him as the driver of the blue hovercar.
It's a valid, and quite applicable comparison because both are drivers and it goes to show you that you can take a driver out of his car and create a very lovable and effective fighting game character. Sweet Tooth has a distinct advantage over pre-smash Captain Falcon in that Sweet Tooth was actually an iconic character in the series.
Including Sweet Tooth in this game is a no-brainer -- it's an excellent choice.
My point has no traction? My point has always been: I don't like the character when he's detached from his vehicle; I understand why others feel the same way.
That's all and I certainly over explained it.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the game or Superbot can't improve on him. I never had. I have been emphasizing that since I joined in on the topic.
Yeah. He also actually has stuff to draw from for his moves. The Twisted Metal weapons can be easily adapted to Sweet Tooth's moves, whereas the only thing that Captain Falcon draws from his games is that he moves fast.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Exactly. And it's not Sweet Tooth and his vehicle, it's just him.
Not to mention ST is on the friggin cover of Twisted Metal Black.
He's basically the face of the entire series. Not the grill of the entire series, but the face
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
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Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Don't know where you can get it but it was on PC and it had online.
Obviously one of those photos is fake though.
Um no. Just stop there.
TM has always been about the characters and their twisted stories. Fricking Sweet Tooth has been through some "reboots" and his revival on TMBlack made him really iconic.(Im sure not just for me) Like they perfected him. Now on the new one, although the movies are cool, have nothing on Black. As a fan I was disappointed in the character but thats bc the characters are a big deal in these games for the fans. Ok this is going off topic but TM is more so about the twisted characters than the cars. The cars are just as twisted as their drivers but I play them to see what they do at the intro/middle/end movies. Sweet Tooth is great to be included in this game.
Oh I am a fan of the characters. Making them unlikeable gave credibility to the world they were in; it made sense; it made some of them memorable. I'm simply not a fan of his design and focus without the Ice Cream truck and, you're right, the answer to that is simply not to play him.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Did anyone ever bring up Dark Cloud? I don't mind to see character from Dark Cloud 2. (Red Headed Girl)
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
You're a fan of the characters but you aren't a fan of them outside of the vehicles. Obviously with Axel he will always be in the vehicle, but for the other characters they were always shown outside the vehicles in the cutscenes and those cutscenes are what really made the game for many.
I thought that one looked off lol
Blasto, maybe? Or scale down one of the War of the Monsters characters?
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