Support NeoGAF

[Bitch Pudding]

Not really, since you could only install and launch apps from the Win Store.

Yeah, and that's the point. You're not supposed to use Steam / your Steam library on XBOX. If you could, this would be a fundamental game changer. But as you can't, just a fragment of Steam users will migrate to the inferior and closed Windows store on XBOX. Well, can't speak for others of course, just know I wont.

 

[KinofChaos]

It'll be interesting to see if huge differences matter again where some publications are concerned. I'm looking at you Digital Foundry.

More interested in IGN Podcast, Maccaffrey already seems giddy about it lol.

 

[Odorono]

Yeah, and that's the point. You're not supposed to use Steam / your Steam library on XBOX. If you could, this would be a fundamental game changer. But as you can't, just a fragment of Steam users will migrate to the inferior and closed Windows store on XBOX. Well, can't speak for others of course, just know I wont.

This will be aimed at console players anyway I assume?

 

[wachie]

We know that:
1. Scorpio is new architecture.
2. They need to have ESRAM or ESRAM-level speeds for Xbox One back compat.
3. It's releasing in 2017.

What do you get when you combine all those points?

1. Polaris is new architecture.
2. They can achieve ESRAM BW with GDDR5/GDRR5x.
3. 2017 hardly points at Vega. There are too many variables to just pin it on Vega only.

Let's just disagree and we can revisit for crow serving.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Like what exactly?



Yeah, lets not give Sony any credit, brand power they built over 20 years world wide means nothing apparently lol, only MS mistakes matter,. Ugh.

Exactly like this advert

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_puwJb2HDqo&feature=youtu.be

Along with countless online and print ads. It's been a tag line here in the UK that they have used on numerous campaigns at numerous times.

 

[icespide]

Exactly like this advert

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_puwJb2HDqo&feature=youtu.be

Along with countless online and print ads. It's been a tag line here in the UK that they have used on numerous campaigns at numerous times.

interesting. never seen this. they'll certainly have to stop using that tag line if all of this pans out

 

[Bitch Pudding]

This will be aimed at console players anyway I assume?

The discussion was about if XBOX (console) could be a substitute for a gaming PC, let alone a PC in general. I think it isn't, because a console is a closed environment, with all the implied restrictions (positive and negative). Hence I don't think there will be a major shift of Steam users on PC to an XBOX, no matter how powerful that turns out.

 

[AmyS]

This is getting into misterx category. Vega is likely a 12+ TFlop monster. Microsoft can use Polaris to reach their 6TF target.

Scorpio doesn't need the big Vega 10 flagship GPU (formerly called Greenland).

The smaller upper-midrange Vega 11 would probably do very nicely -- If Scorpio uses Polaris 10, then it would have to be the full chip without any deactivated CUs, plus highly overclocked to hit 6 TF. Most Polaris 10 GPUs are going to be around 5.5 TF, considering many will not be the full chip and not clocked to the max.

While Vega 10 is likely to be 12TF or more, the smaller, more easily manufacturable, cheaper, cooler Vega 11 should comfortably hit 6 TF or more without being overclocked, probably even with some CUs deactivated. That means a huge amount of chips can be made for PCs, Xbox, none go to waste.

Vega 11 is also not guaranteed to have HBM2, given that AMD will have to serve the mid / upper mid range market with GDDR5X. Vega 10 might be the only GPU (across several SKUs) that has the interposer for HBM2. It's way too expensive to design a GPU with both a GDDR and HBM/2 memory controller. The point is, Xbox Scorpio probably won't have HBM2 which is probably too expensive for a console hitting late 2017. Then again, I'm not saying Scorpio cannot have HBM2, it's just not *the* most likely solution.

 

[chromatic9]

It'll be interesting to see if huge differences matter again where some publications are concerned. I'm looking at you Digital Foundry.

Listening to the Xbox fans, they're extremely pissed about DF this gen. Seen as very pro Sony now.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

The discussion was about if XBOX (console) could be a substitute for a gaming PC, let alone a PC in general. I think it isn't, because a console is a closed environment, with all the implied restrictions (positive and negative).

It's going to be really interesting to see what you can and cannot do once the Xbox and W10 store merge this Summer, especially when the Xbox gets mouse and keyboard support.

We'll all be going Excel and PowerPoint daft

 

[biglittleps]

And don't forget the Xbox 720p vs GLORIOUS PS4 GDDR5 1080P talking from every corner.

They care, and a lot. PS4 is ahead in sales for 3 major facts (in order of relevance):
1 - Better Hardware
2 - Lower price (mostly at start)
3 - MS presentation

4.- Europe, Asia, Australia, Middle East and the rest of the world.

Sony success not only because of MS mistakes and it was there only at launch for few months in US and UK, but MS countered and matched close to PS4 sales in those two regions and still they do. Everybody is missing that PS4 huge success is from rest of the world where PS brand was always stronger even with PS3 launch failures. PS4 got big success because they Sony nailed everything this time and MS just helped them a little for few months in US and UK to gain back some share lost in those two regions in PS3 era. MS will never will be able to win back gamers from rest of the world unless they make some exclusives with marketing that caters in those markets and Xbox doing fine in US and UK like it did with X360.

 

[c0de]

1. Polaris is new architecture.
2. They can achieve ESRAM BW with GDDR5/GDRR5x.
3. 2017 hardly points at Vega. There are too many variables to just pin it on Vega only.

Let's just disagree and we can revisit for crow serving.

You need memory that is *close* to the gpu in terms of latency. But I think it's not a big problem to put esram on the die at all in 2017.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Yes, go to Microsoft Edge, go to http://www.turbotax.com LETS DO IT!

But yea, the Windows Store opening for the Xbox One is basically making it a Steam Machine.

Lol. Okay, point taken.

 

[wachie]

Scorpio doesn't need the big Vega 10 flagship GPU (formerly called Greenland).

The smaller upper-midrange Vega 11 would due nicely. If Scorpio uses Polaris 10, then it would have to be the full chip without any deactivated CUs, plus highly overclocked to hit 6 TF. Most Polaris 10 GPUs are going to be around 5.5 TF, considering many will have not the full chip and not clocked near-max.

While Vega 10 is likely to be 12TF or more, the smaller, more easily producible, cheaper, cooler Vega 11 should comfortably hit 6 TF or more without being overclocked, probably even with some CUs deactivated. That means a huge amount of chips can be made for PCs, Xbox and none go to waste.

Vega 11 is also not guaranteed to have HBM2, given that AMD will have to serve the mid / upper mid range market with GDDR5X. Vega 10 might be the only GPU (across several SKUs) that has the interposer for HBM2. It's way too expensive to design a GPU with both a GDDR and HBM/2 memory controller.

AMD has this habit of filling out the midrange with the previous flagship. Like how they used Tahiti when they launched Hawaii and how they used Hawaii when they launched Fiji. Based on that I'm not too sure if they will ditch that strategy sudenly and flesh out Vega top to bottom next year.

Atleast we're on the same page and not expecting HBM.

 

[jeff_rigby]

We know that:
1. Scorpio is new architecture.
2. They need to have ESRAM or ESRAM-level speeds for Xbox One back compat.
3. It's releasing in 2017.

What do you get when you combine all those points?

And unless Microsoft moves the ARM IP out of the APU/SOC like Sony did, they must use HBM to get Network standby power levels. The only dGPU family (AMD APUs are still not large enough to use IP out of them but will be with HBM) that fits is Vega. With a Vega 130 watt TDP you get 6TF. If you tried to use GDDR5 you have to subtract the GDDR5 power used from the TDP which moves you back close to Polaris and 4TF plus some efficiencies in Vega not related to HBM..

In top end dGPUs the GDDR5 alone can use 50 watts primarily in the memory controllers in the GPU and in the MEMORY.

I think many are forgetting that Scorpio will be a semi-custom design with possibly Southbridge moved into the SoC. It can not be a direct copy of a Vega family GPU.

Given Southbridge in the SoC, Microsoft can drop the expensive Kinnect and use a 1080P or greater stereo camera like Sony does with a 720P camera because they pre-process in Southbridge. With the XB1 Launch design they had to pre-process in the Kinect camera or they would be loading the PCIe with too much Video bandwidth. I'm sure they will drop the HDMI pass-through as the FCC DSTAC recommendation should be implemented soon after the Scorpio launches.

Edit: Pre-process is taking two cameras and creating a 2D plus depthmap stream.

 

[etta]

And unless Microsoft moves the ARM IP out of the APU/SOC like Sony did, they must use HBM to get Network standby power levels. The only dGPU family (AMD APUs are still not large enough to use IP out of them but will be with HBM) that fits is Vega. With a Vega 130 watt TDP you get 6TF. If you tried to use GDDR5 you have to subtract the GDDR5 power used from the TDP which moves you back close to Polaris and 4TF plus some efficiencies in Vega not related to HBM..

Yea you're the person I got the predictions from ;-)

 

[AmyS]

AMD has this habit of filling out the midrange with the previous flagship. Like how they used Tahiti when they launched Hawaii and how they used Hawaii when they launched Fiji. Based on that I'm not too sure if they will ditch that strategy sudenly and flesh out Vega top to bottom next year.

Atleast we're on the same page and not expecting HBM.

So yeah, if indeed it's Polaris 10, then it's probably the Ellesmere XT variant.

 

[rpg_fan]

Polaris, not released yet. Going to be in xb2.
Hbm2, not widely released yet. Going to be in xb2.
6tf in a apu design, not been done yet. Going to be in xb2.
Xb2 will be released at a pleasant, consumer friendly price despite every new amd tech installed.

I know it's the time to be optimistic, but some of this is getting outlandish. It'll probably be a marked improvement over xb1, but it seems highly unlikely that it will the dream box being designed in this thread.

In one gen, MS would have to go from using safe, established, cost effective tech to throwing every new thing available at it, damn the cost.

-edit-
I hate to sound like a downer. It's the time to be excited, don't let me curb that. Reality is for later.

 

[wachie]

So yeah, if indeed it's Polaris 10, then it's probably the Ellesmere XT variant.

It'll be a very mature and cheap chip by next year. Couple that with Zen cores and GDDR5/GDDR5X and that seems like a reasonable expectation for a $449/499 box next year.

If Microsoft pulls out Vega+Zen+HBM next year it will be bigger surprise than the "8 GB of GDDR5" Sony pulled in Feb 2013.

 

[dragonelite]

Yeah, and that's the point. You're not supposed to use Steam / your Steam library on XBOX. If you could, this would be a fundamental game changer. But as you can't, just a fragment of Steam users will migrate to the inferior and closed Windows store on XBOX. Well, can't speak for others of course, just know I wont.

If it meant i could buy Ea, ubisoft games for the scorpio and win10 i would buy them on
the windows store. Its two more clients i don't have to reinstall.

 

[AmyS]

It'll be a very mature and cheap chip by next year. Couple that with Zen cores and GDDR5/GDDR5X and that seems like a reasonable expectation for a $449/499 box next year.

If Microsoft pulls out Vega+Zen+HBM next year it will be bigger surprise than the "8 GB of GDDR5" Sony pulled in Feb 2013.

Yes it certainly would.

Edit: BTW Polaris 10 XT / Ellesmere XT is meant to be close to 980 Ti performance, and that's in a PC environment.

 

[etta]

I'm sure they will drop the HDMI pass-through as the FCC DSTAC recommendation should be implemented soon after the Scorpio launches.

Wait, what!?
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I love my HDMI pass-through.

 

[Theognosis]

3 consoles are about to die (hey, it's not just the Wii U).

 

[icespide]

3 consoles are about to die (hey, it's not just the Wii U).

nah I'd imagine the OG PS4 and Xbox one have a few more years left

 

[AmyS]

nah I'd imagine the OG PS4 and Xbox one have a few more years left

Especially OG PS4.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Lol Taking damage control to new levels.

Damage control? It's just the way I see it. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. The world won't end. By all accounts the first 'version' (Neo) isn't that far away so we'll see how it plays out as soon as that releases.

 

[Lucreto]

I have not been following this thread or the topic but what are the odds that the 6tf is reserved just for the Oculus Rift but normal games can't take full advantage of it but remains on par with Neo.

It's like PSVR is going to have its own processor that will plug into the PS4 and Neo.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

I have not been following this thread or the topic but what are the odds that the 6tf is reserved just for the Oculus Rift but normal games can't take full advantage of it but remains on par with Neo.

It's like PSVR is going to have its own processor that will plug into the PS4 and Neo.

What?

 

[BeforeU]

I have not been following this thread or the topic but what are the odds that the 6tf is reserved just for the Oculus Rift but normal games can't take full advantage of it but remains on par with Neo.

It's like PSVR is going to have its own processor that will plug into the PS4 and Neo.

I don't think that would be the case at all, since the new architecture is just PC. On PC you already have flexibility to change video setting to run any game. Its not difficult for developer to just scale the game depending on the spec of Scorpio, so I am not sure why wouldn't they. Its not like PS3 and 360 type situation where they have to put extra effort to optimize it.

 

[timlot]

I have not been following this thread or the topic but what are the odds that the 6tf is reserved just for the Oculus Rift but normal games can't take full advantage of it but remains on par with Neo.

Yes, Microsoft want to intentionally gimp their system just to be on par with Neo.

It's like PSVR is going to have its own processor that will plug into the PS4 and Neo.

No processor in that psvr breakout box.

 

[Lucreto]

What?

I could be wrong but a processor is included in the VR bundle but it might be connected to something else entirely.


Edit: My mistake I misinterpreted what it was. As I said I am ignorant on this topic... And lazy to look it up.

In the box :

PlayStation VR headset
Processor unit
Stereo earbuds
HDMI cable
USB cable
AC adaptor and power cord
PS VR headset connection adaptor

 

[GribbleGrunger]

I could be wrong but a processor is included in the VR bundle but it might be connected to something else entirely.

It just makes it possible to display the image on the TV so those not using VR can watch you play or can interact with the games you're playing on it.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Polaris, not released yet. Going to be in xb2.
Hbm2, not widely released yet. Going to be in xb2.
6tf in a apu design, not been done yet. Going to be in xb2.
Xb2 will be released at a pleasant, consumer friendly price despite every new amd tech installed.

I know it's the time to be optimistic, but some of this is getting outlandish. It'll probably be a marked improvement over xb1, but it seems highly unlikely that it will the dream box being designed in this thread.

In one gen, MS would have to go from using safe, established, cost effective tech to throwing every new thing available at it, damn the cost.

-edit-
I hate to sound like a downer. It's the time to be excited, don't let me curb that. Reality is for later.

From two angles:

Leaks say it's 6TF: @ 130 watt TDP Vega with HBM can support 6TF

1) If Microsoft stays with the ARM IP in the APU/SOC they have to use DDR3/DDR4 not GDDR5 and they will again be at no more than 2TF even with Polaris efficiencies.
2) IF they use Polaris and GDDR5 then @ 130 watts TDP they can only manage 4TF same as Sony and they have to move the ARM IP into Southbridge like Sony did.
3) If they use HBM, they can support Network standby and the power GDDR5 would have used can be used by the GPU which is part of why Vega designs using HBM are more efficient.

When the XB1 and PS4 were released there was no AMD APU with 1.3 or 1.8 TF. Carrizo and Kaveri (2014-2015) APU families (using DDR3) are under 1.03 TF but have much smaller TDPs. There will be no large AMD APU until HBM is used.

 

[Granadier]

I have not been following this thread or the topic but what are the odds that the 6tf is reserved just for the Oculus Rift but normal games can't take full advantage of it but remains on par with Neo.

It's like PSVR is going to have its own processor that will plug into the PS4 and Neo.

Hahah, what? Why the hell would they do this...

 

[rokkerkory]

Fully prepared to be disappointed at E3 if scorpio isn't talked about.

I just hope they tease us a bit however.

"Here's snip of Halo 5 running at 1080p60 (or 4k30) on the next iteration of xbox" at the end of the show.

 

[e-gamer]

Like what exactly?



Yeah, lets not give Sony any credit, brand power they built over 20 years world wide means nothing apparently lol, only MS mistakes matter,. Ugh.

Brand power did not prevent them to lose ~50% market share to Microsoft.

So, it's important and play a nice role in the situation but it's not so relevant, sorry.

But having a better hardware and lower price still are Sony's accomplishments for sure.

 

[icespide]

Fully prepared to be disappointed at E3 if scorpio isn't talked about.

I just hope they tease us a bit however.

"Here's snip of Halo 5 running at 1080p60 (or 4k30) on the next iteration of xbox" at the end of the show.

that would be a terrible idea. if they hint at a new box but don't actually announce it they will get raked over the coals

 

[rokkerkory]

that would be a terrible idea. if they hint at a new box but don't actually announce it they will get raked over the coals

but the forum salivation would be glorious

 

[McHuj]

Polaris, not released yet. Going to be in xb2.
Hbm2, not widely released yet. Going to be in xb2.
6tf in a apu design, not been done yet. Going to be in xb2.
Xb2 will be released at a pleasant, consumer friendly price despite every new amd tech installed.
r.

I understand what you're saying, but if Scorpio is really supposed to be ~6 Tflops, a Polaris based GPU is the only way that's achievable. I don't think it will be HBM2, but GDDR5x will probably be a must as the BW requirements will need to cover the GPU and CPU.

Of course if it's not really 6 Tflops, then things scale back from there. We're also talking about a console probably launching late 2017, almost 18 months from now. By then Polaris based GPU's will be old and proven.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Fully prepared to be disappointed at E3 if scorpio isn't talked about.

I just hope they tease us a bit however.

"Here's snip of Halo 5 running at 1080p60 (or 4k30) on the next iteration of xbox" at the end of the show.

They can't reveal a console in June that will release no earlier than September/October of the following year, they just can't. They can't even hint at at it.

 

[e-gamer]

Sony success not only because of MS mistakes and it was there only at launch for few months in US and UK, but MS countered and matched close to PS4 sales in those two regions and still they do. Everybody is missing that PS4 huge success is from rest of the world where PS brand was always stronger even with PS3 launch failures. PS4 got big success because they Sony nailed everything this time and MS just helped them a little for few months in US and UK to gain back some share lost in those two regions in PS3 era. MS will never will be able to win back gamers from rest of the world unless they make some exclusives with marketing that caters in those markets and Xbox doing fine in US and UK like it did with X360.

By MS presentarion I mean in fact that they were appart from years of games history and maybe thought that a lower hardware really can compete without 90% of third's exclusives games.

And to help they put all the drm talking with a console that costs one hundred dollars more (with kinect, a plausible failure even that time) than competition.

 

[Proelite]

Polaris, not released yet. Going to be in xb2.
Hbm2, not widely released yet. Going to be in xb2.
6tf in a apu design, not been done yet. Going to be in xb2.
Xb2 will be released at a pleasant, consumer friendly price despite every new amd tech installed.

I know it's the time to be optimistic, but some of this is getting outlandish. It'll probably be a marked improvement over xb1, but it seems highly unlikely that it will the dream box being designed in this thread.

In one gen, MS would have to go from using safe, established, cost effective tech to throwing every new thing available at it, damn the cost.

-edit-
I hate to sound like a downer. It's the time to be excited, don't let me curb that. Reality is for later.

By the time Scorpio releases Polaris would be more than a year old. If Xb2 released this fall it would have Polaris. Fall next year theyll use an updated architecture

 

[blastprocessor]

This has to be some xbox branded pc. I don't think it's a console.

Yeah i'm wondering this too. Xbox was suppose to be a generational update not some interim replacement.

 

[Markoman]

If I was Sony, I would wait for MS.
There's no real need to release NEO this fall. Give PSVR some room to breathe, then go for a simultaneous launch with MS again with a new, more powerful concept for NEO.

 

[vpance]

They can't reveal a console in June that will release no earlier than September/October of the following year, they just can't. They can't even hint at at it.

That's why we got the controlled leak ahead of Sony's announcement at E3.

 

[AmyS]

The biggest improvement of all and the most important for Scorpio I think, is Zen.

Even with just 4 cores, you'd still have 8 threads, and could be clocked high,

I'm not sure if the 8-core / 16 thread Zen coming to desktop PCs late this year would be feasible in a $400-$500 console launching fall 2017.
Let me re-phrase that, an APU with 8-Zen cores for console, for example. Probably not.

However, that would still be less than the APU example AMD gave early last year (it may have been from late 2014 originally)
which had 16-core Zen (32 threads) and Greenland streaming processor (Vega 10).

http://www.techspot.com/news/60344-leaked-slide-provides-details-stout-amd-zen-chip.html

This was something that AMD could do by late 2017 for HPC market.

Also, it was rumored that next-gen APUs with 5x the performance per watt could be delivered to Microsoft/Sony in 2018 for a late 2018 console launch (or maybe 2019 launch).

Back to Scorpio / 2017, what do you think, 4-core / 8-thread Zen, high clockspeed ?

 

[c0de]

Yea you're the person I got the predictions from ;-)

Imagine they don't even use arm - at all.

 

[...Scatter...]

I also do think that they won't compete anymore in the hardware-sales war and that they are embracing the idea of a Windows10/Xbox Machine, even if I still have a lot of doubts about how this would pan out for them.

Why do people keep saying this? MS JUST got into the hardware game not too long ago and is improving over time. They are learning and adapting. Why would they want third party to create hardware for them in the console space to dilute the quality and add their own bullshit apps and custom store to?

 

[Bsigg12]

More interested in IGN Podcast, Maccaffrey already seems giddy about it lol.

I really can't stand that podcast. I find it unbearable.

I think Digital Foundry is going to have a blast doing at least 5 different version comparisons between PS4. XBO, Neo, Scorpio and PC. That's a lot of video capture and analysis for every game.

 

[Zedox]

Why do people keep saying this? MS JUST got into the hardware game not too long ago and is improving over time. They are learning and adapting. Why would they want third party to create hardware for them in the console space to dilute the quality and add their own bullshit apps and custom store to?

In effect, they already will with the Windows Store and games being released (or potentially released) on both platforms...but they'll just be PCs. I don't think anyone is going to be able to make an "Xbox" branded PC...just like they won't be able to make Surface branded tablets. MS is staying in the console space...I think that these console warz are going to peoples heads and think that MS is just going to fold. Like, really, we're going to only have Sony, Nintendo, and a bunch of 3DOs again? smh.