All right I'm fairly confused now so Sony isn't making a crazy margin just stating they will make a profit and that turns up the taxes or something?
At least their women are very attractive.
lol kkkkkkkkkEven their MTF transgendered are very attractive :|
The distributor profit is refunded. The retailer profit does not go to Sony.
I never said it was. I am a brazilian and what I see here in Brazil is that taxes are not the only thing to blame for the prices, but high profit margins too. A profit margin of R$857, even if distributed between Sony and retailers is very high. Of course Sony is not the only one to blame here, high profit margins are a widespread practice in Brazil.
I can't see how anybody can try to defend Sony against R$4000 price lol
It is like they sell the PS4 at $1000 in US.
As the numbers stand, Sony BR don't make any money on the sale of the PS4 and neither would SCEI on a $390 transfer price. It is a combination of a high transfer price and the cumulative effect of compounded charges, taxes and mandatory margins.
Somebody pointed out in another thread that Sony is including the profit margins when calculating the taxes, while the taxes are applied to the base price, to try to justify the price. There is simply no way anyone can defend them. In my opinion Sony is being smart. They know that the ones willing to buy the PS4 on launch in the "official market" have enough money to pay R$4000, so they are trying to profit as much as possible during the launch window.
Will all the people slating those of us saying it wasn't simply a case of "greedy Sony" in the other thread say hello?
All taxes other than the 20% import fee (II) are calculated on the sale price which includes the distributor margin. It's not a case of Sony being smart, I highly doubt they would do that voluntarily or lie on a financial statement. It really strikes me as more likely that taxes in Brazil are very high and cumulative/compounded to promote large profit margins for local branches of multinationals in Brazil to encourage employment.
The brazilian law states that profit should not be taken into account when calculating the taxes mentioned in the report.
That's a shitload of taxes! I don't know if this is true, but someone once told me it was due to the fact that gaming is compared to gambling in brasil, but I could be totally wrong on this. It boggles my mind..63% tax?
It takes a lot of passion and devotion to gaming to put up with that.
If I'm wrong about that,my apologies Brasil-GAF. Don't kill me please. Portuguese here!
Do you have a link to this law? I would like to read it, might be useful to know the tax structure in Brazil.
I want to see now the Xbone taxes... Sony is lying about that... bullshit.
The taxes are the same for both.
Xbone: 2200
PS4: 4000
MS is paying R$2000 to me buy their console?
as a Brazilian myself, I confirm it, greed on our veins.I never said it was. I am a brazilian and what I see here in Brazil is that taxes are not the only thing to blame for the prices, but high profit margins too. A profit margin of R$857, even if distributed between Sony and retailers is very high. Of course Sony is not the only one to blame here, high profit margins are a widespread practice in Brazil.
Sony Brasil deal with SCEA... all consoles they sold are from US... even the games have the US CODE.Well could be, have not read anything on it but ps4 would be considered as a japanese import and xbox as an american import... might have some tax breaks part of some agreements... if you can call that tax breaks
BGS heist incoming:
Tax over profit only inside at the end of fiscal year... you pay a part each three months to sum at the fiscal year... it is called IRPJ.Do you have a link to this law? I would like to read it, might be useful to know the tax structure in Brazil.
Unfortunately no, someone mentioned it in a Brazilian website without giving a link, but I saw this mentioned also before regarding other things. Also, from what I know, the profits are taxed at the end of the fiscal year. If the company/retailer managed to turn a profit at the end of the fiscal year taxes are applied, not before.
Tax over profit only inside at the end of fiscal year... you pay a part each three months to sum at the fiscal year... it is called IRPJ.
http://www.receita.fazenda.gov.br/pessoajuridica/dipj/2000/orientacoes/lucroreal.htm
Consumers here didn't pay taxes over the company profit lol... we already pay a lot of taxes over the product price.
So MS is losing more than US$ 1000 (thousand) for any Xbox One sold in Brazil?
lol, everybody knows that Sony is lying
Everybody except EVERY SINGLE TAX EXPERT THAT EVERY MAJOR BRASILIAN SITE INTERVIEWED.
The problem is NOT the ps4 price.
It is the XBOX ONE price
Again, that is income tax, it is completely different to sales tax. Pretty much everywhere I can think of puts sales taxes on post margin. Take the US as an example, the price over there is $399 which includes the retailer margin and Sony's margin, sales taxes are then applied to the $399 price, not the pre-margin price of ~$370. Sales taxes are usually the very last thing to be added to prices, the problem in Brazil is that there are so many and the process of applying them seems so random and opaque.
Everybody except EVERY SINGLE TAX EXPERT THAT EVERY MAJOR BRASILIAN SITE INTERVIEWED.
The problem is NOT the ps4 price.
It is the XBOX ONE price
No comment about the profit marguins then? I always see you blaming taxes, but you ignore everyone who says that profit margins are also to blame.
Everybody except EVERY SINGLE TAX EXPERT THAT EVERY MAJOR BRASILIAN SITE INTERVIEWED.
The problem is NOT the ps4 price.
It is the XBOX ONE price
Everybody except EVERY SINGLE TAX EXPERT THAT EVERY MAJOR BRASILIAN SITE INTERVIEWED.
The problem is NOT the ps4 price.
It is the XBOX ONE price
wow wake up man. The Kotaku analyst says they are using the higher taxes possible and high profit margin for retailers. So we are paying for something that we shouldnt.Everybody except EVERY SINGLE TAX EXPERT THAT EVERY MAJOR BRASILIAN SITE INTERVIEWED.
The problem is NOT the ps4 price.
It is the XBOX ONE price
@Road, as for the lower discount on the PS4 I would say its volume related, why discount in Brazil when Europeans will buy everything they can get for a higher price.
On the Xbox, the transfer price might be lower if MS attach a higher strategic value to Brazil than Sony. MS might view it as a market where they can build up a significant market share leas in because Sony are struggling with volume and negative margins. Another theory is that MS are sending almost finished units there and importing the Xbox for a small price and importing Kinect separately which isn't subject to the same harsh taxes as it is essentially a webcam.
Noy sure if that holds up to scrutiny though...
Subside would explain dodging taxes ... but HOW much is the braizlian goverment opening their legs to microsoft and how much is microsoft not taking profit ?
Profit margins are huge .... but this is how our country works.
And even if you take away the profit margins in the sony data you are still with a ridiculous price that is MUCH bigger than Xbone's
MS dodging taxes or Sony lying?
The problem is the price of every other gaming device ever, including Sony ones.
Seriously, it's really hard to defend Sony here when the actual evidence is out there, is every gaming company making such heavy subsidizing then? including Sony themselves for devices like the Vita? it makes no sense.
Them show me one tax expert that agreed with the Sony statement
You don't pay more than $1000 of taxes from a $400 product.
Our taxes are big, but not this big. This is bullsh**
wow wake up man. The Kotaku analyst says they are using the higher taxes possible and high profit margin for retailers. So we are paying for something that we shouldnt.
You don't pay more than $1000 of taxes from a $400 product.
From the Kotaku link:
"Conversamos com o advogado especializado em tributos aduaneiros Márcio Camargo Ferreira da Silva para tentar entender um pouco mais sobre a composição do preço do PlayStation 4 no Brasil, e segundo ele, os impostos são esses e realmente pesados. Mas há alguns fatores dignos de nota na discriminação dos valores passada pela Sony.
Na tabela há o que Camargo classifica como uma “gordura” na conta: impostos que estariam sendo cobratos com a alíquota máxima possível, em vez de porcentagens reduzidas, que poderiam fazer o preço do console abaixar. Um exemplo que ele dá é o ICMS, que está em 25% e poderia estar em 18%. Outro fator é a localização de algumas tarifas na tabela, mais especificamente da margem da distribuidora (a própria Sony Brasil) que é de 20%. Como ela vem em primeiro na tabela, isso quer dizer que todos os impostos incidem em um valor que já conta essa margem quando o certo seria que ela viesse no final da conta.
Camargo também aponta os 16% de margem de lucro dos varejistas como sendo um percentual muito alto, principalmente comparado com os praticados em outros países. Nos EUA, ele fica entre 3 e 4%."
Basically, it is said that that the profit margin is about 4 times larger than in the US, some taxes are higher than they should be in this case (he gives an example of a tax that should be about 18% but Sony is considering 25%) and also all the taxes are being applied on the profit margins when most of them shouldn't. So the price is not right.
ICMS - $222.43 - an importation tax applied to the $585 figure
PIS - $14.68 - a consumer tax applied to the $585 figure (Sony BR will claim this back)
COFINS - $67.62 - a consumer tax applied to the $585 figure (Sony BR will claim this back)
IPI - $444.87 - a tax applied on gambling goods on the import price of $889.73
ICMS-ST/ - $223.12 - a tax on the $889.73 import price
... that the taxes are not applied equally to all companies and some pay far more then others under the same regulatory statues so as a rule its damned near impossible to figure out why certain tech cost what down their...