Kibbles
Member
Smite. lol, I wouldn't be surprised if PS4 OG could run that in 4k.
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PS4 Pro provides checkerboard rendering in hardware - no cost to devs
- Thread starter Blanquito
- Start date
Don't rain on his parade, he thinks that proves he was right about something...
You say games like the witness can't hit 4K 30fps on PS4 Pro but Bound can already render at 2688 x 1512 60fps on PS4 for PSVR.
TLOU as well
There have been several announcements of native 4K on the Pro, including TLOU.
Yes PS4 can run games at 4K but that's beside the point. Posted it because people was talking about the checkerboard rendering not being real 4K as if it was the only way a game could be 4K on PS4 Pro.
a AAA PS3 title that runs at 1080p/60 on the base PS4 and will run at 4k/30 and "drops down to a lower resolution" for 60fps...
This proves what exactly?
I've got nothing to prove.
PS4P will have native 4K titles.
Everyone and their mother knew about 'checkerboard rendering' technique from old leaked docs. We knew games were coming in 4K. We knew some less demanding games may get pushed to native 4k. I really did not see titles like TLOU getting native res, even at 30 fps. I can't wait to hear whats next.
Wishmaster92
Member
I would guess MGSV: TPP would support native 4k for ps4 pro but the chances of Konami patching it is 0/10 pachinkos.
You consider last gen remasters...to be AAA titles? I certainly dont...
Yes, we've all known that stuff...which is why onQ's ranting about being "right" is so hilarious...everyone has been explaining this stuff to him for months but he has continued to launch into Jeff Rigby level tirades about concocted terminology, and obscure patents, and second GPUs alongside the existing APU that would make misterxmedia proud
Calculating pixel color is literally what computer graphics is, there are so many "cheating" techniques it's crazy. The fewer calculations you have to do to find a pixels color the better your performance is going to be, but you'll have to weigh the pros and cons. Plenty of graphical effects have weird looking artifacts and shit. This is just another scheme to try to squeeze the best image for a specific target out of a certain hardware configuration. I don't see whats so terrible here.
And people going on about "native", what framebuffer do you need to be "native"? Modern graphics engines typically render out a bunch of render targets and they're not usually all "native" resolution. They get scaled and combined before the console presents the frame to your TV to be displayed.
As far as I'm concerned, if the game engine and console are doing math, finishing the frame, then presenting the TV with a full 4k framebuffer than it's a "native" 4k image. The quality of that image is what should be questioned.
And people going on about "native", what framebuffer do you need to be "native"? Modern graphics engines typically render out a bunch of render targets and they're not usually all "native" resolution. They get scaled and combined before the console presents the frame to your TV to be displayed.
As far as I'm concerned, if the game engine and console are doing math, finishing the frame, then presenting the TV with a full 4k framebuffer than it's a "native" 4k image. The quality of that image is what should be questioned.
It's almost as if the 4K image isn't being rendered but just show up on your screen lol
Beerman462
Member
Citing TLOU as a AAA 4K game in 2016 is hilarious. It's a 3 year old game made for a 9 year old console.
Well the game did get these scores 2 years ago
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=863212
HORRORSHØW;122978362 said:
MR ARCADE FOREVER
Member
That does not mean the graphics aren't outdated
It's a ps 3 game after all
Stop...review scores don't qualify a game as AAA...
It was a AAA title for the PS3...not the PS4...or the PS4 Pro
But how does that stop it from being a AAA game when it's one of the highest rated games on PS4 in the last 2 years?
So GTAV isn't a AAA game on PS4,Xbox One & PC because it came out on PS3 & Xbox 360?
It just proves the people wrong who said there would be no games worth note that are running at 4K are wrong.
Sure, AAA current gen big budget games pushing high end graphcis won't run at native 4K, but really, why condense your argument only to those specific games? And for what purpose? There are a lot more games that come out on this console than those. And everyone already knows that this mid range GPU and low end CPU will not perform miracles.
I'm just glad that people have the option to get current gen games on this level if they choose this year at an affordable price
johnnydrama
Banned
Hey man, Persona 4 Golden also got endless 9s and 10s.
Resogun is still one of my absolutely favorite games of this generation...same with Rocket League...obviously there are many MORE THAN worthwhile games that don't exactly fit in the "AAA" space...
but I really don't think anyone ever argued that ZERO games would be 4k native on the Neo did they?
It was a AAA game when it was originally developed...not as a PS4 remaster...
Yeah, now that Sony is using it everybody will love it.
j/k
It's not the same tech at all though
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Several have over the last few days actually.
The Last of Us Remastered is absolutely a AAA PS4 game.
Oh, like interpolation?In a rough, very small nutshell.
Render the red pixels.
Calculate everything else.
Its not the same technique, it takes two frames and blends them together, producing one image that has removed all of the negative artifacts from both frames. Its somewhat similar to the temporal technique Killzone shadowfall was using, but is vastly superior for a few reasons
1. The pixels are rendered at a full 2x2 or 4x4 ratio, thus there is no dithering seen.
2. The actual sample of each individual frame being combined(2600x1400 something) is far higher than the sub HD version of Killzone shadowfall(900x1000 something), producing almost no blurring and a significantly cleaner image in stills and motion.
RIchard Leadbetter of Digital Foundry essentially said that the clarity of the resulting image is higher than what you'd normally get at native 1440p.
1. The pixels are rendered at a full 2x2 or 4x4 ratio, thus there is no dithering seen.
2. The actual sample of each individual frame being combined(2600x1400 something) is far higher than the sub HD version of Killzone shadowfall(900x1000 something), producing almost no blurring and a significantly cleaner image in stills and motion.
RIchard Leadbetter of Digital Foundry essentially said that the clarity of the resulting image is higher than what you'd normally get at native 1440p.
Brad Grenz
Member
No, it's obvious you don't understand the technique at all. Here, some rounded off math. Native 1080p samples 2M pixels to create the framebuffer. Native 4K samples 8M pixels to create the framebuffer. This checkerboard rendering splits the difference and samples about 4M pixels and then generates the rest by referencing buffers and past frames that contain additional information. At minimum you get twice as much "REAL" visual information as 1080p, and usually more than that because the algorithms are pretty sophisticated at extrapolating more accurately.
The Quantum Break method is different. They never sample more than 720p (~1M) new pixels in a single frame and in motion the temporal reconstruction breaks badly which is why you see lots of aliasing and can easily pixel count a screen at 720p.
Can someone explain the pipeline? Does it work like this:
1. Native 1800p image
2. Checker board prediction
3. Hardware based filter for artifact control
4. Final image displayed
I really wish we could see a video explaining how the dedicated hardware helps eliminates the artifacts created by the checkerboard rendering. Also how similar is this technique to the reporjection used in titles like Killzone, Quantum Break, and Rainbow Six.
1. Native 1800p image
2. Checker board prediction
3. Hardware based filter for artifact control
4. Final image displayed
I really wish we could see a video explaining how the dedicated hardware helps eliminates the artifacts created by the checkerboard rendering. Also how similar is this technique to the reporjection used in titles like Killzone, Quantum Break, and Rainbow Six.
Rather than actually using previous frames like interpolation, you're guessing or calculating based on previous frames. Other than that, it's similar to interpolation but in a very tiny way. Like KZ split the screen up in half by lines and QB did it into quarters in big squares, if I'm not mistaken. The ps4 pro does it in 2x2 chunks.
Beerman462
Member
Yes, it is a great game. One of my favorite in fact. That doesn't change the fact that graphically it isn't that impressive anymore.
Graphically it isn't AAA in 2016
molnizzle
Member
You guys seem to be confused. "AAA" refers to budget, it basically just means a game is from a traditional publisher and not an indie. TLOU is a first party Sony game, it's fucking AAA. lol
Beerman462
Member
So, should we be impressed that GTA 3 could be 4K on the PS4 Pro? Saying the PS4 Pro can run AAA at native 4K implies recent games. Not games from previous generations.
Yeah, it had a AAA budget when it was originally developed...as a PS3 title...
I was specifically referring to what the article talks about (checkerboard rendering and the possible spatial reconstruction that can be used with it). Obviously it should also lend itself to temporal reprojection.
Given how implementation-specific temporal reprojection features are, it's likely that the hardware features are purely a matter of efficient rasterization, texture sampling, and possibly spatially filtering the checkerboard buffer into a 4K image.
You can use interpolation, essentially upsampling, to fill in the missing pixels. That's what DF's articles talk about. This can be used by itself to generate a 4K image from a render with half as many pixels.
But, by inverting the checkerboard between frames, it should also be nice for temporal reprojection: using data from previous frames to fill in the missing pixels. When the image isn't moving, this should trivially give basically perfect results; use the new pixels for half the squares, and the pixels from the last frame for the other squares.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Lead character models, animation, framerate, 'set' decoration, anisotropic filtering, acting, story/gameplay/art direction, UI, music and atmospherics are a cut well above the average AAA game this gen. Many textures look dated but I'm sure there's other so called 'AAA' games this gen at a similar level like Elder Scrolls Online or Battleborn.
This is still a damn good looking game in very large parts.
molnizzle
Member
You're just moving goalposts here. ESO is a current gen game and it's hitting native 3840x2160 as well. This silly little argument started because you guys were saying that no games will hit native 4k and that is simply not true. A handful do now and a handful more probably will in the future.
Buba Big Guns
Banned
Seems like a pretty good method to get to 4k.
Brad Grenz
Member
No. Using checkerboard techniques you never produce a "native image". Each frame is sampled in a pattern full of holes, and then the next frame is (ideally) a negative version of that pattern.
No. You don't render a "native XXXXp image." The "native" render is checkerboarded.
The checkerboard rendering is itself a convenient way of minimizing artifacts without rendering a full-res image each frame. The dedicated hardware, whatever it is, will be for accelerating the checkerboard rendering.
shiftplusone
Member
really? rainbow 6 siege on xbox is one of the most unpleasant viewing experiences I've had. Nothing else bothered me before (anything being under 1080p and then upscaled, etc) but R6S on xbox I couldn't get over how bad it looked. I did not like that at all
its not siege's implementation
Liabe Brave
Member
The article is not directly quoting Sony on the method, however; I think it's just conjecture from Digital Foundry. Here's the relevant part of the article:
That looks like an assumption about what method's being used, explicitly based on a previous DF article. Which says:Digital Foundry said:
But those leaked documents do not ever refer to "2x2 checkerboard", just plain "checkerboard". That means they could be using the R6 Siege pattern (or 2x2, or anything).Digital Foundry said:
I think Digital Foundry stab in the dark more often than people realize, and I wouldn't view them as a rock-solid source for what Pro is doing. For example, knowledgeable discussion in this thread has already thrown doubt on their claim that the technique is entirely hardware-based and zero cost. Even DF implicitly contradicts their own statement by adding that devs can control the method.
I believe we need more and better info, directly from primary sources.
Since I've previously been quoted in a "you guys" post... I'll assume this "you guys" also includes me...
I'd love for you to show me any post where I've ever stated that no games will hit native 4k...
I'll wait for the apology..
Liabe Brave
Member
However, you did say that no AAA games would be native 4K. When TLOU Remastered was suggested, you disqualified it because it's from last gen. Now someone has brought up ESO, which is from this gen and native 4K. So it doesn't seem you're correct. Unless you're going to keep adding more requirements to your list, which is kind of his point.
Codeblew
Member
It proves native 4k rendering on PS4P. Are you dense or something?
The one used in rainbow six. (Adjusted for 4k.)
1. Render native 1080 2xMSAA image. (Force shading of all samples, next frame mirror sample locations.)
2. Gather samples from 2 frames to create complete frame. (Use velocity information to get right samples)
3. Sawtooth removal etc.
https://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&sour...z1-u6O_Nl_GAwW0yg&sig2=PU0cpItJX8jru40lEZPxCg
eyeball_kid
Member
"We're really trying to focus on making gamers feel like there's an authenticity to the 4k in the PS4 Pro, instead of just focusing on realism. What does real even mean? It's so subjective. But feeling authentic, that's something that hits you in your gut. That's where the emotions lie, down there in the dirt with the authenticity of 4k."