Asked if PC developers will make games with quality equal to ENB mods.
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Reality of console visuals surpassing PC visual fidelity
- Thread starter Resilient
- Start date
Asked if PC developers will make games with quality equal to ENB mods.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Same, please! I'm very keen on on getting some ENB mods set up, but have no idea where to start!
I think that was his point.
This.
they always do, they just never upgrade it enough.
Anyways, PC to Console
"Anything you can do I can do better, I can do anything better than you".
Wiktor
Member
This gen is the first one that didn't offer substantial jump over PCs at launch. With rising costs of development and push for multiplatform I think the situation might repeat.
My guess is that launch multiplats will still look better on PC. Few months after launch some rare console exclusives might appear that will offer slightly prettier visuals than PC, but nothing beyond that.
To be hones though, I think the rope is burning from both ends. While this gen couldn't blow away PC graphics at launch, at the same time at the end of the gen the advantage PCs now have over consoles also is a lot smaller than they used to be in previous gens (strategy genre excluded)
My guess is that launch multiplats will still look better on PC. Few months after launch some rare console exclusives might appear that will offer slightly prettier visuals than PC, but nothing beyond that.
To be hones though, I think the rope is burning from both ends. While this gen couldn't blow away PC graphics at launch, at the same time at the end of the gen the advantage PCs now have over consoles also is a lot smaller than they used to be in previous gens (strategy genre excluded)
LOL, no.
What I would like to see is SEGA going back to making insane arcade spec hardware like the old days. Ridiculous monsters rigs just to play the latest Virtua Fighter.
Once the PS3 and Xbox 360 did perfect conversions of VF5, that dream died.
Those are like perfectly the exact words of someone who has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.
I understand what he's trying to get at, though.
Step by step to get my setup for Skyrim:
NOTE: BACKUP ANYTHING BEFORE YOU CHANGE IT!! ... Common sense?
1) Upgrade to the official HD Texture pack, (I did this through steam dlc).
2) Change the Skyrimprefs.ini file. Make sure it's the one in My Documents \ My Games \ Skyrim and not the one in the steam folders.
Changes to skyrimprefs.ini (find the following entries and make sure they are set to 1. Very important!)
bTreesReceiveShadows=1
bDrawLandShadows=1
bShadowsOnGrass=1
bFloatPointRenderTarget=1
3) Changes to skyrim.ini (in same folder as skyrimprefs.ini)
bReflectSky=1
4) Download Opethfeldt ENB v6_03c from http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/18941
unzip somewhere and then copy all of the contents from the 'a. Main Preset' folder into the your main skyrim folder, (make sure you copy in the subfolders as well).
5) modify the enbseries.ini in the main Skyrim folder, (mine is c:\program files(x86)\steam\steamapps\common\Skyrim), and set EnableDepthOfField=true
6) download kalicolas enb from http://enbseries.enbdev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=625&sid=d4cc044163122806f72e13bb021bef69
Take the enbeffectprepass.fx file from Kalicolas enb, and overwrite the one in your main skyrim folder, (this will use Kalicola's Depth of Field settings).
the enbeffectprepass.fx is the only file I am using from it, don't overwrite any other files.
7) launch skyrim, but before pressing play, go into data files and change the mod order to:
- Realistic Lighting.esp (old vanilla version slightly modified
- Realistic Lighting Patcher
- RevampedExteriorFog.esp
- Dark Dungeons for ENB.esp
Presto!
That should be it. Enjoy!
NOTE: BACKUP ANYTHING BEFORE YOU CHANGE IT!! ... Common sense?
1) Upgrade to the official HD Texture pack, (I did this through steam dlc).
2) Change the Skyrimprefs.ini file. Make sure it's the one in My Documents \ My Games \ Skyrim and not the one in the steam folders.
Changes to skyrimprefs.ini (find the following entries and make sure they are set to 1. Very important!)
bTreesReceiveShadows=1
bDrawLandShadows=1
bShadowsOnGrass=1
bFloatPointRenderTarget=1
3) Changes to skyrim.ini (in same folder as skyrimprefs.ini)
bReflectSky=1
4) Download Opethfeldt ENB v6_03c from http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/18941
unzip somewhere and then copy all of the contents from the 'a. Main Preset' folder into the your main skyrim folder, (make sure you copy in the subfolders as well).
5) modify the enbseries.ini in the main Skyrim folder, (mine is c:\program files(x86)\steam\steamapps\common\Skyrim), and set EnableDepthOfField=true
6) download kalicolas enb from http://enbseries.enbdev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=625&sid=d4cc044163122806f72e13bb021bef69
Take the enbeffectprepass.fx file from Kalicolas enb, and overwrite the one in your main skyrim folder, (this will use Kalicola's Depth of Field settings).
the enbeffectprepass.fx is the only file I am using from it, don't overwrite any other files.
7) launch skyrim, but before pressing play, go into data files and change the mod order to:
- Realistic Lighting.esp (old vanilla version slightly modified
- Realistic Lighting Patcher
- RevampedExteriorFog.esp
- Dark Dungeons for ENB.esp
Presto!
That should be it. Enjoy!
345triangle
Member
it's a moot point. this generation was the first in which the enthusiast PC market shrunk to the point where console games completely dictated development. at the time the 360 and PS3 came out, high-end PC games just flat-out would not run on the PS2 and xbox at all, whereas there isn't a single example of that right now.
the advantage of playing PC games in the mid-00s was that you'd get an entirely different experience, but the advantage of playing PC games in 2012 is that you can play console games in 1080p at 60fps.
aside from the fact that we're generally nearing the point of diminishing returns with game graphics, the most the PS4 and 720 will do for PC development is set the bar higher so that it isn't held back by seven-year-old technology. it doesn't really matter if they surpass it or not — it should free up a lot of things possible on current PC hardware that has been difficult to implement until now, even if the new console hardware is relatively underpowered.
the advantage of playing PC games in the mid-00s was that you'd get an entirely different experience, but the advantage of playing PC games in 2012 is that you can play console games in 1080p at 60fps.
aside from the fact that we're generally nearing the point of diminishing returns with game graphics, the most the PS4 and 720 will do for PC development is set the bar higher so that it isn't held back by seven-year-old technology. it doesn't really matter if they surpass it or not — it should free up a lot of things possible on current PC hardware that has been difficult to implement until now, even if the new console hardware is relatively underpowered.
A few more of my Skyrim screenshots, (1080p 60hz)
http://i.imgur.com/GPivK.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/im0iZ.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/HwJOu.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/qKBt0.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/hPHlX.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/UiEKa.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/xoUJ3.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/0tkUl.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/FEPFn.jpg[/IMG[/QUOTE]
Looks good, however the bokeh effect on the depth of field is dumb in a game. It adds nothing to realism and only masks the method to improve the IQ. As a photo enthusiast I can appreciate good bokeh .. however it doesn't belong in games. My eyes don't see through a 1.2 aperture lens, and neither should a game. I can clearly focus on objects both 2 inches and 200 feet away, my vision isn't blurred magically 5 feet away. Developers of these mods do a fantastic job of enhancing the world that Bethesda makes, but the blurred bokeh effect only makes me appreciate the original game engine more tbh.
I know motion blur and depth of field is used in AAA games, but I hope they never ... never try to adapt the terrible bokeh effect in your screen shots... big turnoff.
Otherwise your screens are beautiful. Good lighting mostly, blacks, textures and improved IQ.
Wiktor
Member
Yeah, especially since in fighters you don't have a lot of display, so they always were able to go crazy with details.
I remember the first time I saw Virtua Fighter 3 footage, still propably the biggest "wow" reaction a game has caused for me.
edit: found it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTBeGAhk79I
damn..still looks pretty nice
Too late:/ Ubisoft is already on it.
My mind was blown.
Nothing on consoles or currently in arcades at the time could compare to that.
The Depth of field usually doesn't look like that when I play. I purposely positioned myself and pointed the camera to make it do that, (for screenshots).
You'd really have to see it in motion! An amazing experience!
I agree about the advantage of PCs now, but I don't think this has much to do with the PC market shrinking. It's all budgets, and the fact that there's no game for which comprehensive physics simulation is integral to the experience. There's just not much in the way of cheap non-scalable assets that can be added to most modern games. All of the cheap stuff is scalable, which means it almost never impacts the core experience - it's often just IQ. Although note that Battlefield 3 multiplayer on PC does allow for more players and bigger maps. Strategy games are one area where it's very cheap to take advantage of greater power, with the Total War games being great examples.
As I hinted above, I think we're probably pretty close to there being a definitive PC physics-based experience. Something developed fairly cheaply on UE4 or UE5 next time around but with massive physics simulation. And that's not something that consoles are going to be able to fake, and it's not something that's terribly expensive to do; it just requires power.
I'd really be looking for PC exclusives of that time versus console ports, though that does look around the same level as Doom 3 pre-mods.People that talk about "Raw numbers" have no clue what they're talking about, especially when it comes to RAM and graphics cards. Even at the system launches more than 512 MB of RAM would've been needed in even a low-end PC. RSX and even the Xenon were nowehere near state of the art back then and yet they produced results that kept them competitive with the PC market all the way up until a year or 2 ago for all games without Crysis in the title. PC games from 2005 and 2006.
Sometimes it shocks me how little people remember about what games looked like even 6-7 years ago, this isn't the distant past people. This is a high-end PC game at max settings in 2005:
Anyways, I think this is how it will be: PCs will technically trump consoles, but because consoles don't have to worry about a variety of setups like PCs do (just your targeted platforms basically) you'll see them do more than most developers are willing to do on PC: Deus Ex had to be severely compromised on PS2, yet Final Fantasy X and Metal Gear Solid 2 blew away what PCs were showing even if they probably could've done better with a high budget and being completely willing to blow off older computers. Of course, with consoles raising the acceptable level this tends to go back to PC too, and it'll probably be especially true with how often games are for both PCs and consoles anymore that aren't indie or multiplayer-only.
Wiktor
Member
FFX and MGS2 were PS2-exclusives, at least at launch. You won't see any high-end exclusives next-gen unless they're first party ones. So that comparision doesn't hold. Sure, big budgeted multiplats will propably go to a level a PC exclusive devs won't be able to afford, but unlike with PS2 era, those multiplats will also be on PC.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Awesome! Just gave it a whirl and... wow. What an amazing looking game Skyrim can be. Enjoyed just wandering around the wilderness for a bit.
Wow... 1996?
That's insane.
The bigger point I was trying to make was that the new consoles raise the minimum bar, so we'd have a huge jump in visual quality unless they decide to make most games target 360/Playstation 3 first with the next gen versions running at 1080p and/or 60 FPS, similar to Phantasy Star Universe on 360 versus PS2. I'm actually fairly confident that high end PCs will always trump consoles except in esoteric specialized ways (the PS2 or PS3 was the last case of this I think), but they're being held back by older hardware people are still using and not willing to upgrade from just yet (a position most people are in including most of us, I'm sure), and now they're also held back by needing to port to consoles for almost anything with the budget to really push visual fidelity.
But you were right earlier, the jumps are getting less extreme. Doom 3 and HL2 looked amazing, yet they did get very good Xbox ports, and I think the Crysis games and Witcher 2 are something of a repeat of that: some of the best looking games to hit PC in a long time, yet they still received very solid console ports before the next gen hit.
ii Stryker
Banned
OP the key thing that your omitting from your observation is that publishers and developers will spend more resources on optimizations for the new consoles while largely ignoring the PC community. This is basically what happened at the beginning of this gen. It's not so much that the new consoles will be more powerful but the games will be far more optimized to make them appear so.
Normally, the depth of field isn't that noticeable, I just do it for screenshots.
I just loaded it up and took a quick screenshot.
Here's what you can expect just running around, if even a lot less blurry:
UE 4 games are already in production for PC as is frostbite 2 and Ubisofts next gen enginge.
also, there won't be anything near as exotic as the cell processor in next gen consoles, they will be closer to a pc in architecture than ever.
ii Stryker
Banned
I think the first party games will crush whatever third parties have to offer because their games are only optimized for their specific console. The third party game don't have that luxury.
That's a matter of budget too. Outside of maybe Halo i don't think those will compete with what third parties will put on the table. Though maybe at launch they will.
345triangle
Member
i think it's a combination of both. it used to be financially viable to throw all your resources at creating the best PC game possible without thinking about how you could downport to console, and it just isn't really now (stuff like total war (which isn't too expensive and wouldn't have a console market anyway) excepted).
Normally, the depth of field isn't that noticeable, I just do it for screenshots.
I just loaded it up and took a quick screenshot.
Here's what you can expect just running around, if even a lot less blurry:
I installed all this and got it running, it looks amazing during the day but nights look.... not as good. It's like I've got the gamma right up, but don't.
ii Stryker
Banned
I don't think it's a question of maybe. I think they'll have to in order to justify the cost/subscription contract. Otherwise they'll lose a lot of console gamers who will make the jump to the PC.
They're essentially designing the new consoles to replace the desktop PC as an entertainment hub.
It does that on my friends machine when the opethfeldt6 FXAA isn't working. (Looks really washed out) . I'll try to fix it on his machine and let you know what I'd did. Usually you can turn on the Opethfeldt FXAA, (which also increases saturation and contrast in his algorithm) By pressing the pause key on the keyboard while playing. It is supposed to default to on, but on his it doesn't, and when you press the pause key nothing happens. On mine, you can watch it go from washed out to perfect with the pause key.
I do have anti aliasing, FXAA and anisotropic filtering turned off in the normal skyrim video settings area, ( as the enb takes over these effects). Not sure if that has anything to do with it.
Sentenza
Member
Yeah, definitely.
Also turtles can fly better than seagulls.
Yup, pause works, looks fantastic. I just wish it ran a tiny bit smoother.
I'd argue the opposite. A console (especially next gen, tail end of this gen is a bad time to judge) is a solid substitute to a PC. cheaper, just switch it on, no fussing with driver updates or config editing, it just works. Yes, that might be minor for some people, but its a better value proposition to me.
graphically they should be at a similar level on a nice HDTV - at living room viewing distances the likely console AA will be enough, and super high end GPUs will be wasted at 720/1080p. Games will still be targeting console specs and so I expect PCs to only show advantages in framerate and resolution. So those of you running 2560 monitors or multiple monitors, or liking 120Hz will probably be happy. PC gamers currently using HDTVs - I think it would be close enough to parity that you could choose either, and I'd choose console for simplicity and price and exclusives.
My specs: i7 @ 3.6 660ti running in sli.
I think Skyrim actually makes good use of sli. Can anyone confirm that?
Exactly the reason why 99.9% ENB settings are bad. Its bad for gameplay and make only nice shots with high dof.
Skyrim has far more serious problems then lack of dof and blurred image quality, more like geometry, lighting, shadows or lod problems for example.
Sentenza
Member
Well, then d I'd argue you're completely wrong.
A console isn't suited for work, it offers a very limited multitasking, it isn't suited for emulation, it doesn't allow modding, it doesn't let you surpass those performances and settings the developer originally picked, it doesn't let you play games that aren't designed specifically for console, and so on.
I'll agree on the lod. I really hope they fix it so you can up the ugrids without screwing up your save games, and crashing all the time. The default ugrids is rediculously low, and obviously that way because of console memory limitations, ><
Can't wait for next gen consoles so we can be rid of these crappy lod levels and move on to tessellated terrain, etc.
For the Console Public Apart from Multi Tasking [which will be better obviously next gen]
The rest stuff you mentioned are moot and useless for them.
They will come insert/DD game and play and trade in and buy another.
Thats how it goes. [though it changing due to DLC and tremendous support in games]
Most of the PC hardcore games audience are build in a long period of time i would rather say and it suits modding and tinkering and others features etc.
My definition of solid substitute is different then. I'll trade those elements for the simplicity of a console. I don't have as much time to play anyone, so mods and tinkering aren't my thing.
I can completely understand how you could see those as a benefit though - but then some of those (eg mods) might skew you towards PC even if they weren't more powerful?
That's pretty delusional.
Do You know that 99% of times installing mods is just copying files to game folder or just clicking instal button?
I agree that people like simplicity, but on consoles its beyond reasonable standards. How many games are there where You cant even change controls?
Wiktor
Member
Nah. It's a solid alternative, but not substitute. It lacks a lot of what makes PCgaming great and a lot (maybe even most) great PC-centric games never make it to consoles.
In terms of hardware power the new consoles won´t be able to compete against top end PCs at the time of release. But that´s not what it´s about, it´s about the games running on these platforms. No developer ever will optimize a game for top end PC specs.
When you look at the release titles or early gen games (0.5 - 1.5 year after release), I think the games will look at least as good as on top end PCs, due to programming and optimizing for specific hardware. 1.5-2 years into next Gen, the PC hardware will be again so much more powerful, that they will look better again, in terms of resolution/fps.
When you look at the release titles or early gen games (0.5 - 1.5 year after release), I think the games will look at least as good as on top end PCs, due to programming and optimizing for specific hardware. 1.5-2 years into next Gen, the PC hardware will be again so much more powerful, that they will look better again, in terms of resolution/fps.
Writing to the metal will give only about 25% performance boost, its not enough to overcome higher tier GPUs/CPUs in PC. Next-gen will be completely different than current gen at the beginning, because of lack high end, experimental hardware in consoles [like CELL].
Salacious Crumb
Junior Member
This forum will be amazing when MS or Sony release some bullshit target render for their next console.