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[duckroll]

Yeah, I did see your post. There were several issues that are unavoidable with the project, and regarding the prologue issue I honestly guess I just put too much faith in people to try and see the good in the project. We didn't want to mislead anyone, so we came out and said what we could realistically create with a KS sized budget.

The sad thing is that we honestly could have avoided some of this by just glossing over some of this stuff. And of course we knew that during the planning stages, but the team decided to take the risk and be as transparent as possible.

I don't think the issue has anything to do with transparency here though. Hear me out. Ultimately, what you tell people is a pitch. It's what you want them to support, and a promise of what they will get if the project gets funded. By setting the goal lower, and then announcing that the goal budget will only fund half the game envisioned, that is an immediate turn off for crowdfunding because you're introducing the risk of people putting in money to the project, it hitting the goal, and them still only getting half the game if the stretch goals are not reached. That's a terrible way to pitch something to people if you want them to contribute and support a concept. I'm not even talking about all the hoo-ha about it being a "prologue" or whatever. Just the product itself which is being pitched... it's a terrible deal.

I feel relatively confident that if the goal was set at 1.5 million, and the base game was a full 6 chapter self-contained story which introduces the characters and world, and there was no anime Kickstarter, there would be a pretty good chance that a lot of the backlash would be mitigated. In the end whether it gets funded or not will depend on how much demand there is, but everyone would feel better supporting a project which feels complete, rather than a piecemeal thing with an artificially low goal to start with. Stretch goals should be more optional content, features, and polish. Stretch goals should never be "complete the base game". :/

 

[J-Spot]

I don't think transparency was the problem. The whole prologue thing was rather confusing from the get go and wasn't explained well from the start. With the stretch goal implementation I'm still unclear what you're trying to accomplish. If no stretch goals are met we'll supposedly get chapter 1 through 3 of the prologue. The first stretch goal gets us chapters 4 and 5 of the prologue? What comes after that? We're we eventually going to find the full game or just more prologue? If no stretch goals are reached we just get the prologue of the prologue?

 

[Servbot24]

BudokaiMR2, I am fine with the idea of a prologue as a KickStarter, but this was not made clear from the beginning. It was not revealed until later on (to my recollection), which made it feel deceptive.

 

[Cmagus]

We tried to clear this up in the first update, but KalKanon was always designed as its own isolated incident. That said, it still will hook into the main game in a lot of ways so that is why it was called a prologue.

Just to be clear, I have no problem with people not wanting to back because its a prologue. That's the beauty of Kickstarter! It's up to each person to decide whether they want to back. It is very possible that a game of this scope is just not a good fit for Kickstarter.

However, I also think it is unfair to call it a shitty campaign just because we are being honest. Sure, maybe it isn't what a lot of players would want in a perfect world but we presented what we wanted to (and could realistically) create as best as we could with the resources we had.

I wouldn't say it's a "shitty" campaign but very flawed. It's message wasn't really portrayed well imo. The fact so many people are confused about what this exactly is or was (at the time of the KS launch) was very off putting for many. The whole "not knowing" platform thing was a mistake and an example of something that should have been sorted out before launching this imo.

While I understand that throwing a huge protoype together is not an easy task but I feel that they should have at least had something ready even if it's some sample animations or a character moving through a test environment at least showing some sort of idea of how this will look or play even if it's extremely rough. It's nice you guys are being transparent and I think people appreciate that but the message was still confusing.

MN9 did this well, they had a small little piece of Beck running around shooting and we also got to see that it was a 2D/3D type game when a lot of people though it was gonna be 2D hand drawn but at least having that cleared things up and gave something that people could say ok I can see where this is going. The animatic they showed is great , I love it and really like the characters but it just feels like this almost wasn't ready to be Kickstarted just yet and it feels like now they see it's struggling they are stepping it up finally but I don't think saying "I don't know what people want" is entirely fair when many have made it pretty clear.

I'll certainly agree with you on the Inafune hate and Hyde stuff, I don't think it's needed. I just think that asking people for money is much different than asking publishers for money and gamers are gonna be more critical about things right out the gate it's to be expected. I also think with Kickstarter people are always kind of worried or unsure as so many (myself included) have been burned bad on some kickstarters so that certainly doesn't help and it for me at least it makes me much more critical of what I back.

There is no doubt the team they have on this is talented and have history working on MML projects so that I'm not worried about. Anyways it's nice to see you back answering some questions hopefully you guys can pull through and get this funded.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I'm not supporting this specifically because I'm unhappy with the way inafune presented MN9 and has run that project.

But to be honest, although I would have supported a red ash "full game kickstarter" for certain back when he still had goodwill, I'm not so sure I would have backed this prototype, especially with the anime sideshow in the background. The whole concept is bizarre and I hope I don't see it again in other kickstarters.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

PS4 announcement did nothing? I figured this was dead, but that's still surprising.

Some kind of vertical slice is probably too little too late as well.

 

[J-Spot]

PS4 announcement did nothing? I figured this was dead, but that's still surprising.

None of the news outlets picked up on it. If you weren't already watching this kickstarter you would never know it was announced.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

PS4 announcement did nothing? I figured this was dead, but that's still surprising.

Some kind of vertical slice is probably too little too late as well.

It also doesn't help that many think that there's no way it's reaching 1 million, so why bother pledging?

 

[Admiral Woofington]

It also doesn't help that many think that there's no way it's reaching 1 million, so why bother pledging?

Yep. You need to capture positive hype at the beginning. If not word of mouth and news outlets might not continue to cover you until it fails. Unfortunately with this there was too much negativity from the getgo. If they had done say ps4 to begin with it would have likely done better.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

The voting probably happened so it doesn't seem like there was a bias by the devs/publisher, it was "on the consumers hands" so they don't end up with problems with MS/Nintendo. It's impossible that they didn't know that the best console to release the game in 2017 was the PS4.

If I had to state my opinion, the anime kickstarter and calling it a prologue were awful decisions, it didn't help that everything was confusing(PLEDGE FOR ONE DAY FOR THE FULL GAME THAT MIGHT NOT EVEN EXIST, what?), and the pitch video being awful.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

It also doesn't help that many think that there's no way it's reaching 1 million, so why bother pledging?

Yeah good point.

 

[_Ryo_]

BudokaiMR2, transparency and honesty have nothing to do with why the project is failing and it's very offensive for you to suggest it is even a factor at all.

The problem is that it's not a good deal, period. If you were to lie and say it was something else, of course it would actually be a worse campaign but that doesn't mean that it's not bad already.

Think of it like this

Cheater cheats on SO
SO sees evidence of cheating
SO calls out cheater
Cheater confesses they cheated
SO breaks up with Cheater
Cheater says "Well, I don't know why we broke up, I was honest about it the whole time!"

Yes, the cheater was honest about cheating... That doesn't excuse the cheating.

So honestly and transparency does not excuse the failings of this campaign, it's not a good deal because people do not want an incomplete game, and if you were to call an incomplete game a full game and people found out you'd be in just as bad a situation.

It doesn't help it was confusing from the start what the kickstarter was actually for. It reminds me of that guy who said "He may or may not have cheated"

"This may or may not be a prologue"

Edit:

Then there is the fact you're charging I think it was $29 for this prologue which you've stated was always supposed to be part of the full game. That makes it essentially a demo for the full game. So 29$ for a demo... not a good deal.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Also, I'm not one of them but many want Physical versions of games, and it being 90 bucks instead of the standard 60 also hurt the KS.

Let's also consider that this is a "Prologue" so I wouldn't expect it to be a 60 dollar game to being with, probably 20-40, so 90 is a lot of money.

 

[kunonabi]

So is the "Full Game" going to get made regardless of the kickstarter? I don't see any reason to back the prologue if I can just buy the full game later on.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

So is the "Full Game" going to get made regardless of the kickstarter? I don't see any reason to back the prologue if I can just buy the full game later on.

This is also important, Inafune said that he'd make the game no matter what(hopefully it's true) which takes out a lot of why we have kickstarter, we back projects because we want them to happen, we want to be part of them becoming a reality.


In this case, why would I back the prologue when we know the FULL GAME is happening, why the fuck does this KS even exist aside of it being a proof of concept thing to show publishers later on.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

This is also important, Inafune said that he'd make the game no matter what(hopefully it's true) which takes out a lot of why we have kickstarter, we back projects because we want them to happen, we want to be part of them becoming a reality.


In this case, why would I back the prologue when we know the FULL GAME is happening, why the fuck does this KS even exist aside of it being a proof of concept thing to show publishers later on.

Where was it said the game was gonna be done regardless? I can't think of any publisher that would back this after the KS response

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Where was it said the game was gonna be done regardless? I can't think of any publisher that would back this after the KS response

Inafune said it on an interview some days ago.

Gimme a sec and I'll find the quote.

Edit: Here's the quote:

I try not to think about the possibility of RA's Kickstarter failing, but in the event that it does, I will not give up on creating it, no matter what challenges lay before me.

Link: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/red-ash-a-brief-qa-with-comcepts-keiji-inafune-

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I may pull out some specific quotes just to shorten this post...not trying to cherry pick or anything.

Could we ask why you guys wasted your time on a poll for a console?

This is honestly hard to talk about without talking about how other Kickstarters have done it (even MN9). Just to start, you have to understand that 99% of the time when a developer promises to release on a certain console there is a very high chance that it is at that point still an empty promise. It is easier to get published on consoles than ever before, but that doesn't make it easy. It hasn't happened yet, but it is entirely possible that a project could promise a PS4 release then get turned down by Sony. Now, most people can do a quick mail etc. and at least get a verbal promise. comcept is in a very different situation because we have a deeper connection than most companies with the 1st parties (Soul Sacrifice published by SCE, ReCore published MGS) Points like that complicate things a little bit more on our side.
The fact that this KS is for a prologue, no matter how much content, also makes the situation a bit more complicated.
The poll was there to give us some negotiation leverage. I walked up to my SCEJ contact at BitSummit and showed them the current results. It honestly helped us!

In the end whether it gets funded or not will depend on how much demand there is, but everyone would feel better supporting a project which feels complete, rather than a piecemeal thing with an artificially low goal to start with. Stretch goals should be more optional content, features, and polish. Stretch goals should never be "complete the base game". :/

Although I think everything you posted is a valid criticism, I also don't think it is something that will make or break most projects. I usually don't like to draw parallels because every situation is different, but Shenmue 3 went about this in a very similar way. I was too busy to follow the campaign too closely, but did they end up changing the whole "we will add this area when we hit this goal" part of their campaign?

Maybe going with a $2 million initial goal would have been the correct choice, but that entails its own set of risks.

I don't think transparency was the problem. The whole prologue thing was rather confusing from the get go and wasn't explained well from the start. With the stretch goal implementation I'm still unclear what you're trying to accomplish. If no stretch goals are met we'll supposedly get chapter 1 through 3 of the prologue. The first stretch goal gets us chapters 4 and 5 of the prologue? What comes after that? We're we eventually going to find the full game or just more prologue? If no stretch goals are reached we just get the prologue of the prologue?

Well, in our original update plan you would have known what every single stretch goal would get you in quite a bit of detail. We made them big chunks (episodes) so as not to cut it down into piecemeal TOO much. You would have seen what characters show up in the new areas, what kind of equipment weapons would it would unlock etc. etc.
We may still push that info out, but it's kind of hard to go into detail about stretch goal details at this point, for obvious reasons.

BudokaiMR2, I am fine with the idea of a prologue as a KickStarter, but this was not made clear from the beginning. It was not revealed until later on (to my recollection), which made it feel deceptive.

That's just not true. It's at the top of a paragraph and bolded even....

While I understand that throwing a huge protoype together is not an easy task but I feel that they should have at least had something ready even if it's some sample animations or a character moving through a test environment at least showing some sort of idea of how this will look or play even if it's extremely rough. It's nice you guys are being transparent and I think people appreciate that but the message was still confusing.

MN9 did this well, they had a small little piece of Beck running around shooting and we also got to see that it was a 2D/3D type game when a lot of people though it was gonna be 2D hand drawn but at least having that cleared things up and gave something that people could say ok I can see where this is going.

I can't remember exactly when it came out, but I'm pretty sure that MN9 WIP video hit in the last few days of the campaign. Keep your eyes peeled
I tried to drop hints in one of my earlier posts, but in a lot of these cases that sort of work really only starts once a KS goes live.

It also doesn't help that many think that there's no way it's reaching 1 million, so why bother pledging?

This is where I personally think the real problem lies. As Duckroll said, Kickstarter is all about perception (though he was talking about it in a different sense) and if you are not a runaway success in the first 2-3 days then it is an incredibly uphill battle to remove that worry of failure from potential backers.

I'm not supporting this specifically because I'm unhappy with the way inafune presented MN9 and has run that project.

I'm generally curious about this. What exactly about the MN9 project made you unhappy? I only saw it from the outside, as I rarely back Kickstarters. Not for some idealistic reason but just because I canceled all my CCs after living in Japan for a couple of years because they were useless. Shenmue 3 was my first backed project because the new Stripe payment system let me use prepaid Visa cards finally. Heh....

Now that I have access to the MN9 forums and stuff...It seems like they put a hell of a lot of effort into engaging the community etc. Was it the extra funding that happened? Or the Deep Silver announcement/delay?

If you don't want to go into it, that is fine. I am just curious and this seems like as good a place as any to try and figure out what exactly set people off.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

About MN9:

Most people just don't like how the game looks, graphically. Many felt "tricked" by the concept art.

For me, I'm not happy about MN9 because it did AMAZING, 4 million bucks! more than 400% the goal!

And yet they started a Paypal for DLC, later for VAs... and when they didn't get enough money for JP and Eng VAs we had to vote and Eng ones won, and yet the game ended up having both, what happened there?

Also, announcing a fucking show and live action movie, wtf are you doing, if you can afford that then why are you doing a kickstarter?

 

[th4tguy]

I know a lot of people are unhappy with how this project was/ has been presented but I'm actually pretty scared that if this fails, it will be the nail in the coffin for not just MML/ Red Ash but any MML styled game.

 

[Diggeh]

Most of the main points have been made already, but please don't let the failure of the KS mean there's no demand for this. We all want a Legends 3, and RED ASH has plenty of potential, but the lack of even a finished prototype means the KS should be canceled and relaunched when you guys are actually ready. As of right now it just feels like a sketchy cash grab. I mean, seriously, a separate KS for the anime launched at the same time?!

If you relaunch with a semi-finalized idea and gameplay, I'm sure it'll be much better received.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

This is also important, Inafune said that he'd make the game no matter what(hopefully it's true) which takes out a lot of why we have kickstarter, we back projects because we want them to happen, we want to be part of them becoming a reality.


In this case, why would I back the prologue when we know the FULL GAME is happening, why the fuck does this KS even exist aside of it being a proof of concept thing to show publishers later on.

As far as I understand that quote is him basically saying that even it fails he will figure out a way to make KalKanon Incident even if the KS fails. It doesn't have anything to do with the full game, unless I am misinterpreting the context. I wasn't there for that interview.

I understand what you are saying, and we honestly believed this was the most realistic way to include fans in the process. The full game would never work on Kickstarter.
We tried our best to get that point across to potential backers but I guess we failed there.
We basically came out and said this is a starting point and we want to make more through additional funding, but first it's important to start somewhere and we wanted Backers to be a part of that process. I mean, yes if Kickstarter were able to bring in 10+ million then maybe we could have just jumped straight to the full game.
Unfortunately that just isn't a possibility.

 

[duckroll]

Although I think everything you posted is a valid criticism, I also don't think it is something that will make or break most projects. I usually don't like to draw parallels because every situation is different, but Shenmue 3 went about this in a very similar way. I was too busy to follow the campaign too closely, but did they end up changing the whole "we will add this area when we hit this goal" part of their campaign?

That's not how Shenmue 3 went about it. While there are similarities (and there was backlash too), the perception of the scope is very different. None of the stretch goals added areas. They announced the game would have 3 major areas, which would be in the game no matter what. None of the stretch goals were for more chapters either. What the stretch goals did were to expand the gameplay options and the level of optional content in each of these areas.

When Suzuki made comments about how at 11 million the game would be a "true open world", there was indeed backlash with people perceiving it as a gimped game, but at least no one felt that they would be getting less story or "main" content if stretch goals weren't reached. Everything was presented as optional additional features and content. This is similar to how MN9 had stretch goals for challenge modes, co-op, a race mode, etc. It's all in the perception right? When you tell people that for the base goal they're getting 3 episodes out of 6, that immediately feels like a negative!

 

[SuperDowns]

I think I am about to retract my bid. This kickstarter is a disaster and I don't even know if I want it to succeed. I want a MML3 but not like this half-assed excuse of a project.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

About MN9:

Most people just don't like how the game looks, graphically. Many felt "tricked" by the concept art.

For me, I'm not happy about MN9 because it did AMAZING, 4 million bucks! more than 400% the goal!

And yet they started a Paypal for DLC, later for VAs... and when they didn't get enough money for JP and Eng VAs we had to vote and Eng ones won, and yet the game ended up having both, what happened there?

Also, announcing a fucking show and live action movie, wtf are you doing, if you can afford that then why are you doing a kickstarter?

You are asking the wrong person about what happened with the MN9 funding. Was not in the company at that time. However, as far as I understood weren't those requested by backers? I may be wrong there.

Also, If you really think the bolded part is how movie/show licensing works then you don't have much place being an armchair analyst about entertainment projects.

That's just....not how it works.

 

[Vyse The Legend]

I think I am about to retract my bid. This kickstarter is a disaster and I don't even know if I want it to succeed. I want a MML3 but not like this half-assed excuse of a project.

A disaster is being generous.

 

[J-Spot]

Can I ask what you guys were thinking with making the full game available at a lower price for existing backers/one day before jacking up the price? You created a situation in which potential new backers feel short changed, and you're now asking for more cash than any brand new game would ever cost.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

You are asking the wrong person about what happened with the MN9 funding. Was not in the company at that time. However, as far as I understood weren't those requested by backers? I may be wrong there.

Also, If you really think the bolded part is how movie/show licensing works then you don't have much place being an armchair analyst about entertainment projects.

That's just....not how it works.

I'm not asking you directly, and don't worry about it I'm actually okay with how MN9 ended up. I'm also not trying to act like I'm an expert analyst.


It just goes back to the percepetion part of this, it's just weird how out of nowhere we're getting a show and live action movie, which I assume are expensive, when we don't even have the game yet and now another KS, it really turned off many.

If I wasn't a crazy Legends fan I would have also ignored this KS.

 

[jett]

Also, I still find it unbelievable that people actually expect prototypes when a Kickstarter launches.

Why shouldn't we? Shovel Knight already had a playable build for the press when it launched. Even Shenmue 3 had a tech demo to show for itself. Even MN9 had some mockups. It's true that they were deceptive and unrealistic, but they were there.

You had nothing. Less than what you even showed for MN9. And that could easily be considered nothing content. You had less than nothing. For a spiritual sequel of a very niche game.

That's just one of issue of many, a lot of people have brought them up already. Timing was also terrible. Right after Bloodstained, right alongside Shenmue 3, and before MN9 is released? That's just so poor thought out, as is designing a Kickstarter on the apparent basis/assumption of reaching several millions in "stretch" goals.

People have said it already, it's not a good pitch, it's not a good deal. You said we aren't publishers, and indeed we are not.

 

[MaLDo]

This is where I personally think the real problem lies. As Duckroll said, Kickstarter is all about perception (though he was talking about it in a different sense) and if you are not a runaway success in the first 2-3 days then it is an incredibly uphill battle to remove that worry of failure from potential backers.

Surely the problem with this kickstarter is about... perception.


Ok, yeah.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I'm generally curious about this. What exactly about the MN9 project made you unhappy? I only saw it from the outside, as I rarely back Kickstarters. Not for some idealistic reason but just because I canceled all my CCs after living in Japan for a couple of years because they were useless. Shenmue 3 was my first backed project because the new Stripe payment system let me use prepaid Visa cards finally. Heh....

Now that I have access to the MN9 forums and stuff...It seems like they put a hell of a lot of effort into engaging the community etc. Was it the extra funding that happened? Or the Deep Silver announcement/delay?

If you don't want to go into it, that is fine. I am just curious and this seems like as good a place as any to try and figure out what exactly set people off.

The main thing was the presentation. If you look at the concept art it was going to be a kinda jolly cell shaded game, a lot of nice primary colours with strong foreground elements.

What we're actually getting is a dull looking 3d game with muted colours and ridiculously busy backgrounds that are just offputting.

People will say "that was just a concept", which is true, and I wouldn't have minded so much if it was ever shown that inafune had any plans whatsoever to come up with something even close to that concept, but from the start of the development to the end they showed no signs whatsoever that this was the case.

Init creates made something for Iga that looked better then the mn9 end product before their kickstarter even finished, so it's not a technical issue with the staff, it's just inafune deciding to go a totally different way. It just really felt like a bait & switch to me, that was aimed at evoking nostalgia and opening my wallet. Which it did, so mission accomplished I guess.

I was also very unhappy with the existence of the "signature edition", which just felt like a direct slap in the face of everyone who'd backed high on the KS.

The second KS for the voice overs was weird, but it didn't really bother me, I just thought it an odd nonsense.

 

[Diggeh]

Perhaps there should be a general KS update addressing all of this rather than spinning to a single GAF thread. It comes off as very unprofessional and condescending to respond to every post with "it's unfair to say that and you're wrong".

 

[BudokaiMR2]

That's not how Shenmue 3 went about it. While there are similarities (and there was backlash too), the perception of the scope is very different. None of the stretch goals added areas. They announced the game would have 3 major areas, which would be in the game no matter what. None of the stretch goals were for more chapters either. What the stretch goals did were to expand the gameplay options and the level of optional content in each of these areas.

When Suzuki made comments about how at 11 million the game would be a "true open world", there was indeed backlash with people perceiving it as a gimped game, but at least no one felt that they would be getting less story or "main" content if stretch goals weren't reached. Everything was presented as optional additional features and content. This is similar to how MN9 had stretch goals for challenge modes, co-op, a race mode, etc. It's all in the perception right? When you tell people that for the base goal they're getting 3 episodes out of 6, that immediately feels like a negative!

Okay, I was probably basing my assumption on the image that shows up in the KS pitch video.

But then again...what you just explained is exactly what we are planning with Red Ash. I guess it just wasn't clear... =/

This is from our first update:

Our ideal vision for this project is a game that offers 8 hours of playtime for players going straight from the opening scene to the ending credits. However, we are looking to add more depth and events to the planned areas to allow players to spend more time exploring and uncovering the hidden secrets of KalKanon. This vision is currently spread across the stretch goals we have announced in the form of Episodes. If we are only able to reach the initial goal of $800,000, then this content will need to be cut down on as we will not be able to include the content that is planned for those Episodes. Of course, a lot of potential backers are going to want to know more details regarding these Episodes, and we will be sharing more info in the near future!

The big difference is that yes, there would be a few more endings opened up. I can see how just hitting initial goal would basically mean a very "basic" ending and that alone would drive some people away.

However, the entire point of ours was to also just add more depth to each area in KalKanon. We probably should have just scrapped the visual map because it could possibly cause some miscommunication (just as with that Shenmue 3 graphic) but we honestly expected to at least have the chance to explain what kind of content we were planning.

I might just say fuck it and push some of that info out anyway...

 

[@MUWANdo]

I'm generally curious about this. What exactly about the MN9 project made you unhappy? I only saw it from the outside, as I rarely back Kickstarters. Not for some idealistic reason but just because I canceled all my CCs after living in Japan for a couple of years because they were useless. Shenmue 3 was my first backed project because the new Stripe payment system let me use prepaid Visa cards finally. Heh....

Now that I have access to the MN9 forums and stuff...It seems like they put a hell of a lot of effort into engaging the community etc. Was it the extra funding that happened? Or the Deep Silver announcement/delay?

If you don't want to go into it, that is fine. I am just curious and this seems like as good a place as any to try and figure out what exactly set people off.

Isn't this something you should have researched before putting together the Red Ash pitch?

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Okay, I was probably basing my assumption on the image that shows up in the KS pitch video.

But then again...what you just explained is exactly what we are planning with Red Ash. I guess it just wasn't clear... =/

This is from our first update:



The big difference is that yes, there would be a few more endings opened up. I can see how just hitting initial goal would basically mean a very "basic" ending and that alone would drive some people away.

However, the entire point of ours was to also just add more depth to each area in KalKanon. We probably should have just scrapped the visual map because it could possibly cause some miscommunication (just as with that Shenmue 3 graphic) but we honestly expected to at least have the chance to explain what kind of content we were planning.

I might just say fuck it and push some of that info out anyway...

So every area in that game would have been visitable at 800K?

 

[nynt9]

lol wow at "maybe we were too transparent, the backers just can't handle it", that is a ridiculous, patronizing misinterpretation of the problems people have with this KS, and to put the blame on the potential backers like that is just an ironic sign of how mismanaged and lacking in self realization this KS really is.

 

[Heyt]

I try not to think about the possibility of RA's Kickstarter failing, but in the event that it does, I will not give up on creating it, no matter what challenges lay before me.

Good. I hope they rethink their approach to the project to make it happen.

 

[Fishious]

snip

Thank you for coming in to clarify.

I really do think the greatest issue facing this kickstarter has been messaging. Many of the issues other people have mentioned with this campaign haven't bothered me. Many of those same issues existed for other highly successful kickstarters and didn't negatively impact them. The only things that seem different are the (perhaps unjustified) lack of goodwill towards Inafune and how the kickstarter has been presented.

Transparency does make things harder. Consumers are insulated from the true costs of game development and even most kickstarters hide the true costs as the developers have already sunk a lot of their own money into the project or a publisher/investor lined up. And since Comcept isn't a 2 man garage developer with no ties to the industry and nothing to lose they can't be fully transparent about absolutely everything since their business partners have certain expectations. So I applaud you for trying to be transparent, but it will inevitably make a lot of people wary because it doesn't line up exactly with what they've been conditioned to expect. But it's the kickstarter's job to explain these things in a clear and understandable fashion which potentially requires guessing the issues people may have and addressing them in the original pitch before it creates negative word of mouth.

I liked the animatic and thought people saying it was just doodles someone made over the weekend to be kind of insulting. It gives a good feel for the tone of the game, but doesn't give any idea of how it will actually play. People keep saying all kickstarters need a prototype, but I don't think that's entirely true. A prototype certainly gives more confidence in a project since it shows the developer has sunk their own time in money into making it a reality and gives an idea of how the game will look and feel. You mentioned Ito has been doing preproduction for the better part of a year, but unfortunately that doesn't mean much to most people as there isn't much tangible to show. Backers fund from the perspective of a consumer and expect things to be more like product that they might buy. For better or worse you can't expect people to approach it from the perspective of a publisher.

The main point that's still very confusing to me is the whole prologue/full game thing. This kickstarter is for the prologue, but as of a few days ago it's possible to purchase the full game as part of the tiers. Presumably this means Comcept has either lined up a publisher that will fund the full game (maybe contingent on the kickstarter being funded as a show of interest?) or they're banking on finishing the prologue and leveraging that to get funding for the full game. If it's case 1, that removes a lot of the motivation for people to back since the "full game" will be made regardless. If it's case 2, there's uncertainty that the full game will come into existence, despite the backer paying for it. So if there's some other scenario I haven't guessed, could you please clarify?

I should also mention that while it helps to talk to us directly in this thread, unless these things get clarified elsewhere to both backers and potential backers, it won't do a lot of good in the long run. Even if this kickstarter fails let Inafune know that there is interest, it's just a lot of people are very confused and the kickstarter got off on the wrong foot.

 

[TalonJH]

Update
11:40 A.M Est - $460,494 of $800,000

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Can I ask what you guys were thinking with making the full game available at a lower price for existing backers/one day before jacking up the price? You created a situation in which potential new backers feel short changed, and you're now asking for more cash than any brand new game would ever cost.

It was more about not making the people who had jumped in early and for example, grabbed the early bird specials from feeling like they needed to up their pledge.
We wanted to do something for our early supporters.

So every area in that game would have been visitable at 800K?

It would depend on a few different factors (exact funding amount, further negotiations with Hyde etc.), but one of the ideas was that the later areas would be more linear if those stretch goals weren't hit. So you may just travel directly there through some NPC vehicle or something just to fight a boss and head straight back. Stretch goals would have meant them being fleshed out with treasure to hunt out, new support characters, etc.

Perhaps there should be a general KS update addressing all of this rather than spinning to a single GAF thread. It comes off as very unprofessional and condescending to respond to every post with "it's unfair to say that and you're wrong".

I saw a couple of posts where people asked where I had disappeared to. So I figured I would jump in and try to address some stuff. Sorry?
Some of this stuff is info that is already out that that I am just reiterating a well.

Isn't this something you should have researched before putting together the Red Ash pitch?

As I said, I watched it from the outside so I know the majority of the details. I just never really understood why some of the decisions got that much hate. Figured this was as good a place to ask someone a little more....balanced than some of the people I see in my twitter feeds...

Alright, I need to get some sleep. Hope at least some of you enjoy the next update!

 

[duckroll]

Okay, I was probably basing my assumption on the image that shows up in the KS pitch video.

But then again...what you just explained is exactly what we are planning with Red Ash. I guess it just wasn't clear... =/

Then I think clarifying exactly what you mean is extremely important for the pitch. Keep in mind that people approach this like they would any other digital game they're familiar with - so when it says "Episode 1-3", the immediate impression is that the chapters or episodes are like something in a Telltale game, or the .hack series. At least that's how I would see it. So if something is planned for 6 episodes but only looks like it might meet the goal for 3 episodes, I'm not going to think "oh we're just missing a few extra ending routes, the entire game is still there", but I'm going to think "damn, what a pity, it's going to be cut short. "

I think most people would at some point have experienced what it would be like to be following a TV series or a continuing game series, only to have to cancelled before the story concludes. It's a shitty feeling and one which is highly negative. Associating that sort of feeling with a Kickstarter, even unintentionally, is not a good thing!

 

[hawk2025]

I'll keep it simple:


I don't understand why it would be super hard to choose a platform first since there's a risk it could be denied, but it's OK to promise a full game after this Kickstarter.

Is there not a risk there?

Is the funding for that full game 100% guaranteed?

 

[BudokaiMR2]

The main thing was the presentation. If you look at the concept art it was going to be a kinda jolly cell shaded game, a lot of nice primary colours with strong foreground elements.

What we're actually getting is a dull looking 3d game with muted colours and ridiculously busy backgrounds that are just offputting.

People will say "that was just a concept", which is true, and I wouldn't have minded so much if it was ever shown that inafune had any plans whatsoever to come up with something even close to that concept, but from the start of the development to the end they showed no signs whatsoever that this was the case.

Init creates made something for Iga that looked better then the mn9 end product before their kickstarter even finished, so it's not a technical issue with the staff, it's just inafune deciding to go a totally different way. It just really felt like a bait & switch to me, that was aimed at evoking nostalgia and opening my wallet. Which it did, so mission accomplished I guess.

I was also very unhappy with the existence of the "signature edition", which just felt like a direct slap in the face of everyone who'd backed high on the KS.

The second KS for the voice overs was weird, but it didn't really bother me, I just thought it an odd nonsense.

Oh and before I do head off, I wanted to say thank you for this.
Those are some of the more common complaints I have seen.

 

[Diggeh]

The main thing was the presentation. If you look at the concept art it was going to be a kinda jolly cell shaded game, a lot of nice primary colours with strong foreground elements.

What we're actually getting is a dull looking 3d game with muted colours and ridiculously busy backgrounds that are just offputting.

People will say "that was just a concept", which is true, and I wouldn't have minded so much if it was ever shown that inafune had any plans whatsoever to come up with something even close to that concept, but from the start of the development to the end they showed no signs whatsoever that this was the case.

Init creates made something for Iga that looked better then the mn9 end product before their kickstarter even finished, so it's not a technical issue with the staff, it's just inafune deciding to go a totally different way. It just really felt like a bait & switch to me, that was aimed at evoking nostalgia and opening my wallet. Which it did, so mission accomplished I guess.

I was also very unhappy with the existence of the "signature edition", which just felt like a direct slap in the face of everyone who'd backed high on the KS.

The second KS for the voice overs was weird, but it didn't really bother me, I just thought it an odd nonsense.

That was a big issue for me too. The Signature Edition was a huge slap in the face, especially because backers didn't even get the option to choose it. Some boxes and manuals and digital rewards that ended up being in the main retail release were not worth it in the end.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I'll keep it simple:


I don't understand why it would be super hard to choose a platform first since there's a risk it could be denied, but it's OK to promise a full game after this Kickstarter.

Is there not a risk there?

Is the funding for that full game 100% guaranteed?

Okay one last one...for real this time.

There is a bit of risk with the full game offer but it is a risk on comcept alone. If for some reason Inafune is not able to pull together the funding for it then it would be our ass on the line. However, as both the fans and haters will have to admit Inafune knows how to set up and close deals.. It is a matter of when not if as far as the team is concerned. That when just becomes a LOT easier once we have the KalKanon Incident to show.

With the console situation, that involves partners who we are already very close with.
As I said before, we already have close ties with these companies and without anything confirmed it could seriously damage our reputation with them to announce without their okay.
It's not even just "they might send us a stern email" level stuff.
Some of the things that Kickstarters do regarding console ports is in direct violation of brand guidelines in a lot of cases.
It's quite possible that Shenmue 3 was the first KS to actually go about that in the safest way possible.
I honestly can't say much more...

So I hope that make sense!

 

[Pie and Beans]

There is a bit of risk with the full game offer but it is a risk on comcept alone. If for some reason Inafune is not able to pull together the funding for it then it would be our ass on the line. However, as both the fans and haters will have to admit Inafune knows how to set up and close deals.. It is a matter of when not if as far as the team is concerned.

Right, so good to have it confirmed the $79 "both games" tier exists as a total mythological "if everything goes according to plan..." situation, living on a prayer. You're offering something you have no way of ensuring will exist. Think that might be a pretty big goto on why this KS is shit and shady.

To go further, when you say "our ass on the line" and "risk on Comcept alone", how exactly? Should this KS actually get funded and peoples $79 pledges and up are taken (oh and the special one day only 49ers), will they all be able to claim refunds for this extra game they may potentially never get? Whats the timescale on that as well? KalKanon is 2017... full game is... 2019? 2020?

I mean come on.

 

[Fishious]

Okay one last one...for real this time.

There is a bit of risk with the full game offer but it is a risk on comcept alone. If for some reason Inafune is not able to pull together the funding for it then it would be our ass on the line. However, as both the fans and haters will have to admit Inafune knows how to set up and close deals.. It is a matter of when not if as far as the team is concerned. That when just becomes a LOT easier once we have the KalKanon Incident to show.

With the console situation, that involves partners who we are already very close with.
As I said before, we already have close ties with these companies and without anything confirmed it could seriously damage our reputation with them to announce without their okay.
It's not even just "they might send us a stern email" level stuff.
Some of the things that Kickstarters do regarding console ports is in direct violation of brand guidelines in a lot of cases.
It's quite possible that Shenmue 3 was the first KS to actually go about that in the safest way possible.
I honestly can't say much more...

So I hope that make sense!

That's...hmm. I think I'll keep my pledge, but this seems like a hard sell. I've always believed the one of the few mechanisms for keeping developers honest on Kickstarter is their reputation. When people expressed fears that large well known devs like Double Fine would just take the money and run I laughed because doing that would wreck them. They'd never be able to do a kickstarter again. They'd probably burn a lot of their professional partners. And even if they did somehow make another game that stain would never disappear. People haven't forgiven them for much smaller things, so I figure any sizable dev failing to deliver on something like this would be a permanent black mark.

Still, people aren't really going to care about that. If such a thing should fail people are going to care that they put $50, $80, or more and got nothing. The fact that a developer will do their best because it would be the end of their career really doesn't mean much to them because they'd be out their money. Even though each person's individual contribution is very small, it will still be money that could have gone elsewhere. Considering the negative buzz already surrounding this kickstarter I doubt this will help.

Regardless thank you for being honest with us.

 

[Tratorn]

Good. I hope they rethink their approach to the project to make it happen.

Yep, I'd really like to see it happening (on PS4). And hopefully this failed campaign won't lead to any restrictions or "downgrades" to the concept of the game.

 

[sturgboski]

Right, so good to have it confirmed the $79 "both games" tier exists as a total mythological "if everything goes according to plan..." situation, living on a prayer. You're offering something you have no way of ensuring will exist. Think that might be a pretty big goto on why this KS is shit and shady.

To go further, when you say "our ass on the line" and "risk on Comcept alone", how exactly? Should this KS actually get funded and peoples $79 pledges and up are taken (oh and the special one day only 49ers), will they all be able to claim refunds for this extra game they may potentially never get? Whats the timescale on that as well? KalKanon is 2017... full game is... 2019? 2020?

I mean come on.

My guess is no on the refunds and more so the "risk on Comcept alone" is reputational risk. Though, I believe this Kickstarter has already suffered from that and there really isn't anything stopping Comcept ceasing to exist and rebranding. Look at the recent USF4 on PS4 as an example as Other Ocean handled that and they came from a dissolved terrible porting studio. No one would know unless you dig but most won't.

 

[twothunder]

Update
11:40 A.M Est - $460,494 of $800,000

$461,454 pledged of $800,000 goal
9 days to go
Gained 6000 with the PS4 update

Even with an end sprint. Reaching 800K. Let alone 1 million will be VERY difficult. And I'm being nice here