-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Reevaluating the Zero Escape trilogy (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter Korigama
- Start date
Such a perfect timing: today I finished replaying through the 3 games with my girlfriend and my sister.
VLR is my favourite in the series and one of my favourite games of all time.
I think ZTD is good and I enjoyed playing it (some of the endings are really really good). The reason it probably gets so much hate is because the previous entries set the bar too high and many fans expected too much.
I'm glad that ZTD was even made, considering that years ago the chances of getting a 3rd game were slim because of poor sales
I noticed by reading opinions of others that there is roughly the same amount of people who think 999 is the best vs people who think VLR is the best, with ZTD lagging behind
VLR is my favourite in the series and one of my favourite games of all time.
I think ZTD is good and I enjoyed playing it (some of the endings are really really good). The reason it probably gets so much hate is because the previous entries set the bar too high and many fans expected too much.
I'm glad that ZTD was even made, considering that years ago the chances of getting a 3rd game were slim because of poor sales
I noticed by reading opinions of others that there is roughly the same amount of people who think 999 is the best vs people who think VLR is the best, with ZTD lagging behind
Greatest Ever
Member
I don't know why this has to be explained in every ZE thread, people have a fuckton of reasons to not like ZTD, not just high expectations.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
I didn't read past 999 because I haven't finished Virtue and haven't started Time yet. I just wanted to say I enjoyed what I read, and agree that 999 was fantastic. I actually played a chunk of Virtue before I did 999, and loved it, but after going back to it having beaten 999, it really did start to pale in comparison. Also, Akane isn't so much a timey-wimey issue for me as it is a "completely doesn't make sense", thing. Given how great the rest of the story is though, it's one of the few instances where I can say that I don't mind.
I played 999, found it pretty dull, reached one ending and dropped it. By the time VLR came out on PS+ I actually had no idea that it was related to 999 at all, and had totally forgotten everything about that game.
I brought VLR on holiday with me, just purely randomly as it was on PS+, and became addicted from the start. I loved it. It's my favourite visual novel ever by some distance.
I then went back to finish up 999 and while I now found it much more interesting, I still can't say I liked it all that much. It has major flaws that keep me from enjoying it. The overall plot is absolutely fantastic, but the actual experience of playing through that plot isn't all that great. The execution of it weighs it down.
It seems like we all agree on ZTD - it's irredeemable trash that I wish I'd never wasted my time with, and that I wish I had never existed to sully the first two games. Such a shame after spending so many years hoping that it would exist.
This doesn't make any sense. The plots of 999 and VLR are both largely self-contained scenarios with beginning and endings. They are complete stories - the story of the nonary game and then the decision and the characters within those games.
It's also why I never understand why people think VLR ended on a cliffhanger. The story was about the decision game. How it came about, what it was for, and who the characters were. Once those questions were answered the story was essentially over. The fact that the reason it existed was to set-up some 'save-the-earth' rescue mission never once made me think that said mission should or would be part of the story, and I was really surprised having beat it to find out that people expected that. I felt it wrapped up everything perfectly.
I brought VLR on holiday with me, just purely randomly as it was on PS+, and became addicted from the start. I loved it. It's my favourite visual novel ever by some distance.
I then went back to finish up 999 and while I now found it much more interesting, I still can't say I liked it all that much. It has major flaws that keep me from enjoying it. The overall plot is absolutely fantastic, but the actual experience of playing through that plot isn't all that great. The execution of it weighs it down.
It seems like we all agree on ZTD - it's irredeemable trash that I wish I'd never wasted my time with, and that I wish I had never existed to sully the first two games. Such a shame after spending so many years hoping that it would exist.
This doesn't make any sense. The plots of 999 and VLR are both largely self-contained scenarios with beginning and endings. They are complete stories - the story of the nonary game and then the decision and the characters within those games.
It's also why I never understand why people think VLR ended on a cliffhanger. The story was about the decision game. How it came about, what it was for, and who the characters were. Once those questions were answered the story was essentially over. The fact that the reason it existed was to set-up some 'save-the-earth' rescue mission never once made me think that said mission should or would be part of the story, and I was really surprised having beat it to find out that people expected that. I felt it wrapped up everything perfectly.
Overall I agree with the concept of a declining series, but I'm not so sure about the entity of the fall (ie from godly to trash).
999 is absolutely one of my favourites VN, especially because as far as atmosphere and music goes it's pretty much perfect. But it also had some flaws definitely improved in later games, like the puzzle rooms or the route structure (yes, I really prefer the fragment idea than having to replay 5 times the same room and every kind of walkthgough-needed VN).
It also rushed a lot in the last hours, which was kind of its strength compared with slow stories with pacing issues...but a few hours more could have improved on character building which is definitely not the best there.
Then VLR happened, and it was again a great experience, but some of the above points of strength started weaking, with a way more diluited storyline and some initial decisions to distance the game from its genre. A bit weaker imho, but the buildup in the finale was so hyping that pretty much everyone forgave it and started waiting for ZE3.
The last one in the series is definitely the weaker, but I'm not sure it's mainly because of the narrative, which on the other hand is what definitely caused the burning around and spread the hating of it. The change of genre, both in the narrative (full horror gore) and in the gameplay (what is there to call it a VN anymore?) were choices intended to increase its popularity but that probably didn't work, while the even smaller budget was clear with an OST of mostly remixed pieces and the whole cutscene direction straightly out of a B movie.
The answers-not-answers to VLR are there, but that didn't bother me much, opposed to some cheap narrative choices (
). Contrary to the public opinion though, I don't think it was due to the three different writers, but mainly to the constraints imposed on the project after it was halted in 2014 (and probably a bit on Uchi's writing skills).
All in all, I'm not reevaluating much there, it feels clunky as a trilogy but it's not like I'd stop suggest them for what they were able to achieve. I'm more interested in seeing what the future for Uchi is, since that "taking the distance" from the VN genre didn't seem like a one time thing and for his very admission he took a lot from the Infinity Series in this new trilogy, so the real challenge is in what to do next and how.
999 is absolutely one of my favourites VN, especially because as far as atmosphere and music goes it's pretty much perfect. But it also had some flaws definitely improved in later games, like the puzzle rooms or the route structure (yes, I really prefer the fragment idea than having to replay 5 times the same room and every kind of walkthgough-needed VN).
It also rushed a lot in the last hours, which was kind of its strength compared with slow stories with pacing issues...but a few hours more could have improved on character building which is definitely not the best there.
Then VLR happened, and it was again a great experience, but some of the above points of strength started weaking, with a way more diluited storyline and some initial decisions to distance the game from its genre. A bit weaker imho, but the buildup in the finale was so hyping that pretty much everyone forgave it and started waiting for ZE3.
The last one in the series is definitely the weaker, but I'm not sure it's mainly because of the narrative, which on the other hand is what definitely caused the burning around and spread the hating of it. The change of genre, both in the narrative (full horror gore) and in the gameplay (what is there to call it a VN anymore?) were choices intended to increase its popularity but that probably didn't work, while the even smaller budget was clear with an OST of mostly remixed pieces and the whole cutscene direction straightly out of a B movie.
The answers-not-answers to VLR are there, but that didn't bother me much, opposed to some cheap narrative choices (
aliens, complex, time travel every two seconds
All in all, I'm not reevaluating much there, it feels clunky as a trilogy but it's not like I'd stop suggest them for what they were able to achieve. I'm more interested in seeing what the future for Uchi is, since that "taking the distance" from the VN genre didn't seem like a one time thing and for his very admission he took a lot from the Infinity Series in this new trilogy, so the real challenge is in what to do next and how.
YesManKablam
Member
I want to recommend Ever17 to anyone enjoyed 999 or VLR, as that's where like 70% of those two game's stories came from. But it resolves the story in a satisfying way, unlike how I felt ZTD did. It's the same writer and the music is superb. The art is a bit shit and the pacing can be poor at times, especially one of the character's routes, but overall it's one of the best visual novels I've ever had the joy of reading.
I second this, I just warn you about something. Ever17 is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. Like I can't warn people enough, you are going to put in a lot of hours on an extreme slow burn but when the payoff finally starts, it crashes in hard and the twists do not stop until the end. If you liked 999, I promise you will like Ever17 and I warn that it's slow but it needs to be slow, its methodical in its story telling and there is a reason for it.
OT: thread reopened old wounds. I loved 999 and VLR for different reasons and ZTD was my most hype game last year and it turned out to be extreme dog shit. Got mad at the dropped plot lines just by seeing this thread.
YesManKablam
Member
Yeah, it's slow. Need to triple down on this. It's slow, but it needs to be. But it's very much worth it.
I still think, major spoils, that I would have been fine with a ending to ZTD that effectively retconned the entire concept of nonary games in the first place. I don't know how Uchi would have gotten there but it would have been dope.
999 still far and away my favourite. I wish there was a version with the gameplay of the DS but the convenience features of VLR/ZTD
I don't think ZTD is trash, but VLR and ZTD lost a lot in its transition to full 3d that it absolutely didn't need to lose. The writing always was far more evocative than anything and that's where all the effort should have been spent.
btw "Coincide" is the best thing/chapter name in the entire series because it has like eight meanings
999 still far and away my favourite. I wish there was a version with the gameplay of the DS but the convenience features of VLR/ZTD
I don't think ZTD is trash, but VLR and ZTD lost a lot in its transition to full 3d that it absolutely didn't need to lose. The writing always was far more evocative than anything and that's where all the effort should have been spent.
btw "Coincide" is the best thing/chapter name in the entire series because it has like eight meanings
Is there a way to get it legally in English for less than a bazillion dollars, or is still ridiculously hard to come by? It's been on my list since forever but I could never find a way to get it.
ZTD's biggest offense. Most of my hype came from how the hell he was going to be with Sigma, and he was completely erased...
Remembrance
Member
999 was satisfying because you got to confront the villain and defeat him.
VLR was less satisfying, but the buildup to confronting the villain... next game was still exciting in a different way.
ZTD has the villain not only take away the satisfaction of your confrontation, but pull out another true villain who doesn't even exist yet at the last second.
VLR was less satisfying, but the buildup to confronting the villain... next game was still exciting in a different way.
ZTD has the villain not only take away the satisfaction of your confrontation, but pull out another true villain who doesn't even exist yet at the last second.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
Unfortunately not. Really hope it will someday - the composer, Shinji Hosoe, said on Twitter that he'd like to make it happen (a year or so ago).
Still rare and expensive.
MetalGearOnlineK
Member
VLR > 999 >> ZTD for me.
I preferred VLR because of it's larger scope and abundance of twists and turns, both it and 999 are fantastic. I couldn't help but feel disappointed by ZTD. I think the shift away from Visual Novel style is what hurt most, I wanted to be able to read more into what the characters were thinking, and what the world was like around them. I also think that ZTD even managed to make VLR a worse game in retrospect. VLR felt like a set up to something huge and then ZTD came along and made it into an epilogue to a bad ending.
Great write up!
I preferred VLR because of it's larger scope and abundance of twists and turns, both it and 999 are fantastic. I couldn't help but feel disappointed by ZTD. I think the shift away from Visual Novel style is what hurt most, I wanted to be able to read more into what the characters were thinking, and what the world was like around them. I also think that ZTD even managed to make VLR a worse game in retrospect. VLR felt like a set up to something huge and then ZTD came along and made it into an epilogue to a bad ending.
Great write up!
YesManKablam
Member
$170 was the lowest that I could find it for in my quick search today. If you really feel like you should buy it, grab the 360 version and then just download the the English version on PC. It recently enough was patched to work with windows 10.
Even though the developer has long since gone out of business.
Edit: There's also the Let's Play route. There's a fantastic LP on the LP Archive that is just transcripts of the dialogue and it links the background music. It shows the character artwork when they change expression and any CG, but it's mostly text transcriptions and it follows the recommended path. This is almost preferable because the art is pretty shitty, and it's a way of reading the game without having to look at it.
I forget how exactly I procured the game but I probably did not do it legally if I had to guess. Real shame because I would have supported it in a heartbeat but not with ~$200.
Funyarinpa
Member
999 was an extremely solid story with a legendary final twist.
VLR, my GOAT before playing ZTD, was legendary every step of the way. Quark, Clover and Alice were underwhelming, but the remainder of the cast was incredible. The story had even more twists and turns, and the central mechanic (the Prisoner's Dilemma) still makes VLR have my favorite premise not just in video games, but all fiction. Its OST was in a different, more ambient style, but it worked exceedingly well. The art style was shit, admittedly.
The plot did have a few stretches here and there, but made up for that by being extremely compelling. It took the first game's idea of the Morphogenetic Field and developed on it in an exciting way. The last third of the game (Luna END, bomb and lock shenanigans, those last two hours!) is the stuff of legends.
It built on 999 in every way without recontextualizing its most touching moments (which is a good thing, because 999 didn't need that).
It's a perfect sequel. It perfectly explained the events of Rhizome-9 and really upped the stakes for what was to come.
Zero Time Dilemma shat utterly and completely on the series. I actually like the idea of the game doing a 180 on its previous messages and themes. That's not the issue I have with it. What issue do I have with it?
1. It's not a VN anymore. Cutscenes don't cut it with a series as complicated as Zero Escape.
2. The graphics. Unholy hell, the fucking graphics. Sock puppets have a decent chance of being better at conveying the emotions of the characters than whatever the hell ZTD was trying to pull with 20 hours of 3D animation on a (probably) shoestring budget.
3. The setting is really, really bland. The game was supposedly taking place at a test site, but they went and changed the setting to a bomb shelter instead of Dcom ten minutes into the game.
4. It reuses music from the first two games like crazy. Besides the puzzle rooms, more than half of the music you hear is from the previous games (and with nowhere near the same emotional impact, Blue Bird Lamentation is the sort of thing you use sparingly and not fifteen bloody times). Which is a real damn shame, the new compositions for ZTD are actually really, REALLY good (can't recall a single scene with it, but Ustulate Pathos-Vintage- is wonderful).
5. It is heavily dependent on VLR (we know who five of the people there are). Even so, it handwaves the plot points from VLR and tries to become its own thing, and fails miserably. Eric, Mira and Q bicker among themselves more than Radical-6 and Free The Soul's screentime, combined. Radical-6 is just some random lab-grown virus. The whole FtS subplot is almost literally resolved by Delta going "Oh, by the way, I'm Brother." VLR's hanging plot threads were practically the sole reason people anticipated ZTD so greatly, and they end up being trivialties in the end.
6. ZTD tries to provide a counterexample to VLR and 999's message that the right thing to do is to use the morphogenetic field or to SHIFT, yes- that's actually a really cool idea from the outset. However, we don't see the characters reflect on this at all. Junpei's main objective is proposing to Akane, who herself is characterized horribly here. Phi's absent for much of the game. Sigma knows much about genetics, cloning and AI, and is yet nothing but a belligerent idiot as the events unfold. If Akane somehow never considered and resolved the fact that there are infinite timelines in her whole life, even then we see absolutely NOTHING about how this reflects on her (or Sigma). The message just comes off as ZTD being edgy for edginess' sake. Hell, the cast could've even come to terms with it and decided to seek some other objective or meaning in life. Leaving the ending ambiguous about what finally happens does not excuse this, because it portrays the game's main assertion (that there's no meaning or morality in SHIFTing) as irrelevant and uninteresting- an ambiguous *ending* is a good idea, but we barely see any self-reflection whatsoever.
7. The central mechanics, Fragments and Teams, are utterly trash. The nature of the Fragments impede practically any character development. While the idea of having to start over from zero every time you wake up is compelling, it just doesn't go anywhere. There are a few interesting scenarios (Akane finding Junpei's head comes to mind) but the way it's used really doesn't convey the sense of pointlessness the mechanic tries to convey. This is where the Team system comes in and shits the bed SPECTACULARLY. The Team system limits character interactions to three situations at the beginning of every fragment: Eric gets mad at Q, Sigma and Phi argue, or Junpei acts like a little shit. They get played out extremely quickly. If the teams kept switching, we could have had far more interesting situations- Sigma getting angry at Eric for freaking out for example, or Diana calming Q down. The lack of character development, combined with the repetition in character interactions, really made the first 2/3 of the game rather boring.
8. The ending is cringe-worthy. In connection with #6, the only solid response our characters give to Delta and his revelations (if you can call them that) is to scream about the power of hope and friendship in his face. A morally ambiguous ending is a good idea, but not a good idea for a game meant to be the long-awaited finale of a trilogy to come up with an ambiguous new antagonist and leave it at that.
9. Delta and everything about him. "Terrorist kills eight million so I killed six billion" is really too abrupt and contrived. Even more contrived is how he holds the Decision Game so that he can exist. Delta speaks as if he has the moral high ground but he tortures the cast over and over for his own gain (we never get the feeling that he does that solely-or mainly- to create Radical-6). The game tries to say that SHIFTing to try to save the world (after Sigma and Akane literally devote their lives to this purpose) has no meaning, but Delta (the person with supposedly different moral viewpoints on SHIFTing) does the exact same. I suppose it supports the "There is no morality" argument, but the game fails to make that argument feel heavy or important. It tries to paint a poignant picture that everything is pointless but ends up merely undoing whatever emotional and plot-related buildup ZTD and the series as a whole had. In other words, the game's trying to switch gears to nihilism and cynicism, but attempts it so superficially that it merely disappoints the emotional investment we had in the series.
10. The sex scene (and the "rape attempt"). This is more of a nitpick, but the game sure does portray a weird image of consent and uses rape as a superficial plot device. I can almost excuse the Diana scene (besides the alcohol, it IS a scenario where Sigma's trying to calm her down and ensure her safety, I didn't get the impression that he wished to abuse Diana). I disagree with the concerns about age, though.
The rape scene was a risky move and besides being bad writing, it really distressed some players too (for obvious reasons).
VLR, my GOAT before playing ZTD, was legendary every step of the way. Quark, Clover and Alice were underwhelming, but the remainder of the cast was incredible. The story had even more twists and turns, and the central mechanic (the Prisoner's Dilemma) still makes VLR have my favorite premise not just in video games, but all fiction. Its OST was in a different, more ambient style, but it worked exceedingly well. The art style was shit, admittedly.
The plot did have a few stretches here and there, but made up for that by being extremely compelling. It took the first game's idea of the Morphogenetic Field and developed on it in an exciting way. The last third of the game (Luna END, bomb and lock shenanigans, those last two hours!) is the stuff of legends.
It built on 999 in every way without recontextualizing its most touching moments (which is a good thing, because 999 didn't need that).
It's a perfect sequel. It perfectly explained the events of Rhizome-9 and really upped the stakes for what was to come.
Zero Time Dilemma shat utterly and completely on the series. I actually like the idea of the game doing a 180 on its previous messages and themes. That's not the issue I have with it. What issue do I have with it?
1. It's not a VN anymore. Cutscenes don't cut it with a series as complicated as Zero Escape.
2. The graphics. Unholy hell, the fucking graphics. Sock puppets have a decent chance of being better at conveying the emotions of the characters than whatever the hell ZTD was trying to pull with 20 hours of 3D animation on a (probably) shoestring budget.
3. The setting is really, really bland. The game was supposedly taking place at a test site, but they went and changed the setting to a bomb shelter instead of Dcom ten minutes into the game.
4. It reuses music from the first two games like crazy. Besides the puzzle rooms, more than half of the music you hear is from the previous games (and with nowhere near the same emotional impact, Blue Bird Lamentation is the sort of thing you use sparingly and not fifteen bloody times). Which is a real damn shame, the new compositions for ZTD are actually really, REALLY good (can't recall a single scene with it, but Ustulate Pathos-Vintage- is wonderful).
5. It is heavily dependent on VLR (we know who five of the people there are). Even so, it handwaves the plot points from VLR and tries to become its own thing, and fails miserably. Eric, Mira and Q bicker among themselves more than Radical-6 and Free The Soul's screentime, combined. Radical-6 is just some random lab-grown virus. The whole FtS subplot is almost literally resolved by Delta going "Oh, by the way, I'm Brother." VLR's hanging plot threads were practically the sole reason people anticipated ZTD so greatly, and they end up being trivialties in the end.
6. ZTD tries to provide a counterexample to VLR and 999's message that the right thing to do is to use the morphogenetic field or to SHIFT, yes- that's actually a really cool idea from the outset. However, we don't see the characters reflect on this at all. Junpei's main objective is proposing to Akane, who herself is characterized horribly here. Phi's absent for much of the game. Sigma knows much about genetics, cloning and AI, and is yet nothing but a belligerent idiot as the events unfold. If Akane somehow never considered and resolved the fact that there are infinite timelines in her whole life, even then we see absolutely NOTHING about how this reflects on her (or Sigma). The message just comes off as ZTD being edgy for edginess' sake. Hell, the cast could've even come to terms with it and decided to seek some other objective or meaning in life. Leaving the ending ambiguous about what finally happens does not excuse this, because it portrays the game's main assertion (that there's no meaning or morality in SHIFTing) as irrelevant and uninteresting- an ambiguous *ending* is a good idea, but we barely see any self-reflection whatsoever.
7. The central mechanics, Fragments and Teams, are utterly trash. The nature of the Fragments impede practically any character development. While the idea of having to start over from zero every time you wake up is compelling, it just doesn't go anywhere. There are a few interesting scenarios (Akane finding Junpei's head comes to mind) but the way it's used really doesn't convey the sense of pointlessness the mechanic tries to convey. This is where the Team system comes in and shits the bed SPECTACULARLY. The Team system limits character interactions to three situations at the beginning of every fragment: Eric gets mad at Q, Sigma and Phi argue, or Junpei acts like a little shit. They get played out extremely quickly. If the teams kept switching, we could have had far more interesting situations- Sigma getting angry at Eric for freaking out for example, or Diana calming Q down. The lack of character development, combined with the repetition in character interactions, really made the first 2/3 of the game rather boring.
8. The ending is cringe-worthy. In connection with #6, the only solid response our characters give to Delta and his revelations (if you can call them that) is to scream about the power of hope and friendship in his face. A morally ambiguous ending is a good idea, but not a good idea for a game meant to be the long-awaited finale of a trilogy to come up with an ambiguous new antagonist and leave it at that.
9. Delta and everything about him. "Terrorist kills eight million so I killed six billion" is really too abrupt and contrived. Even more contrived is how he holds the Decision Game so that he can exist. Delta speaks as if he has the moral high ground but he tortures the cast over and over for his own gain (we never get the feeling that he does that solely-or mainly- to create Radical-6). The game tries to say that SHIFTing to try to save the world (after Sigma and Akane literally devote their lives to this purpose) has no meaning, but Delta (the person with supposedly different moral viewpoints on SHIFTing) does the exact same. I suppose it supports the "There is no morality" argument, but the game fails to make that argument feel heavy or important. It tries to paint a poignant picture that everything is pointless but ends up merely undoing whatever emotional and plot-related buildup ZTD and the series as a whole had. In other words, the game's trying to switch gears to nihilism and cynicism, but attempts it so superficially that it merely disappoints the emotional investment we had in the series.
10. The sex scene (and the "rape attempt"). This is more of a nitpick, but the game sure does portray a weird image of consent and uses rape as a superficial plot device. I can almost excuse the Diana scene (besides the alcohol, it IS a scenario where Sigma's trying to calm her down and ensure her safety, I didn't get the impression that he wished to abuse Diana). I disagree with the concerns about age, though.
The rape scene was a risky move and besides being bad writing, it really distressed some players too (for obvious reasons).
i was hoping that the ending would have been ztd making a really grand circle so akane and junpei could live a normal life. i liked the idea of vlr being a massive loop just to allow itself to exist and go on for some other greater purpose. ztd trivializes it as one potential ending.
ztd sucks so much.
999 is basically perfect from a design perspective. it was great putting the game on a replica of the titanic. it's a replica of something that has been ingrained into pop culture as a doomed vessel, giving a sense of inevitability to what will happen to the participants of the nonary games. it simply would not have been as strong if it had been some other ship, and the effect of tying it in to 'futility: or the wreck of the titan' and how that plays into the morphogenetic field is important too. the setting of the game isn't just a good choice, it's the right choice. it's why a moon base where you don't know where you are doesn't work, or an underground facility is similarly uninteresting.
locking the player into the choices they make also does two things. one, it removes a lot of their agency. normally i'm against this because it's boring as hell. but here there's a point. it adds to the feeling of being trapped, and the inevitability of the end. two, it gives the player perspective later when the game recontextualizes what is actually happening with the 'multiple endings'. the frustration of finding another dead end, going through so many loops and winding back at the same conclusion despite alternate choices is supposedly what young akane is going through, and the tension at the end is sort of the culmination of all of that until she finally finds the one way out. not allowing the player an 'out' by letting them select the multiple timelines might have been an oversight, but i think it's the correct design choice. allowing the player to move between timelines in vlr has meaning, but it happens at the expense of tension.
i would also argue that the player choice is much more interesting than its sequels. in vlr, and ztd, you are doing the ol cliche of who lives and who dies. in 999, it's numbers on a door and making a literally calculated decision. the idea of making choices only on high stakes (i see you telltale's the walking dead and heavy rain) is not very interesting to me, so it's nice to allow players to own decisions based on far more mundane things. the story unraveling due to character interactions is far more meaningful to me than making the player feel like they're playing god with virtual lives.
and 999 was first. it goes a long way to setting expectations on the sequels. vlr has problems because it's following 999, and it has problems because it's trying to improve on 999 where there actually weren't problems.
i thought ztd put vlr as a necessary path on the road to true end, again. but i honestly can't tell you much about ztd because it kind of shot my interest in the entire franchise.
but fuck man. if they had done all that just to give akane and junpei a proper happy ending (while letting phi and diana and sigma go party somewhere I guess), fuck man, that would have been so fucking dope
fuck zero. one of the most incredibly shit reveals in a series ever.
Funyarinpa
Member
I kind of like that about 999. I'd argue, though, that it doesn't work as intended. For most, rather than being a frantic search for the one way out, the repetition just invites boredom and tedium.
I'd agree that VLR would really improve if you couldn't go back on a decision until you got an ending.
I agree with most of your points. The setting, the not-immediately-obvious/short-term-mundane outcome of choices, and the lock-in of paths are all effective elements of 999 compared to its successors. That said, a fast-forward feature that skipped already completed puzzles on alternate routes (and perhaps reduced all the already-seen story segments to "previously-on"-style summaries) would have been very welcome.
999 also has the advantage of being vague on multiverse element (the "bad" endings can be interpreted as potential/alternate futures, at least from the perspective of young Akane), whereas VLR goes all in stating that all the alternate timelines actually occur and ZTD goes off the rails stating that "every possibility" occurs in at least one timeline of an ever-expanding multiverse. And of course the characters of 999 are far more grounded (and have interlinking backstories tied to the previous nonary game), which helps quite a bit.
FWIW, IMO:
999 >> VLR >>>> Danganronpa 1 > Danganronpa 2 >> ZTD
Madison Paige
Member
It's weird, I guess I disagree with the majority because I always felt that VLR was not only the best title in the series, but a masterpiece. 999 is still exceptionally good, though, and although ZTD was quite the blunder, I've made my peace with it being terrible and have just become happy that we got a third installment/that it exists in such an entertaining form. Not that what I wanted out of the Zero Escape series was a bunch of laughs in a mediocre finale, but I was laughing so hard I was crying at several moments throughout.
All that being said, though, I would LOVE if another third game was made in the style of the first two that pretended ZTD didn't happen entirely. I know there are a billion ways to make that ending better!
At any rate, I'm excited to see what Uchikoshi cooks up next. I always felt that ZE was him trying to improve upon aspects of the Infinity series, so of course I hope he's making something new that intends to improve upon the ZE series.
All that being said, though, I would LOVE if another third game was made in the style of the first two that pretended ZTD didn't happen entirely. I know there are a billion ways to make that ending better!
At any rate, I'm excited to see what Uchikoshi cooks up next. I always felt that ZE was him trying to improve upon aspects of the Infinity series, so of course I hope he's making something new that intends to improve upon the ZE series.
VLR to me is a masterpiece and one of my all-time favorite games. The story got me hooked early on, I thought all the characters were great (except Quark, yes I still enjoyed Alice and Clover and Dio), the music was well used, the voice acting was outstanding, the puzzles were challenging but satisfying once completed and the twists left me reeling for days on how good it was. One of the best gaming experiences I've ever had.
999 was great but in my eyes it didn't have the same impact as VLR did. I didn't like repeating the same puzzles over and over to get different endings but luckily they fixed that in the remake. Everything else though was fantastic.
ZTD was the biggest disappointment I've experienced since watching The Last Airbender. Enough said.
tl;dr VLR>>999>>>>>>>>>>>ZTD
Also Danganronpa is awful and Steins;Gate is only good after all the cringy otaku stuff and both are better in anime form.
999 was great but in my eyes it didn't have the same impact as VLR did. I didn't like repeating the same puzzles over and over to get different endings but luckily they fixed that in the remake. Everything else though was fantastic.
ZTD was the biggest disappointment I've experienced since watching The Last Airbender. Enough said.
tl;dr VLR>>999>>>>>>>>>>>ZTD
Also Danganronpa is awful and Steins;Gate is only good after all the cringy otaku stuff and both are better in anime form.
Hm, I wasn't going to derail things by mentioning Steins;Gate, particularly since I'm still going through what little I have left of it, but now that it's been brought up, I would personally consider it far superior to ZE as a whole. Considering the sensibilities of VLR, I also don't think there's much room for getting snippy about pandering to otaku, as that's easily at its most prominent in that installment of the trilogy (from the designs to Sigma's pervertedness, which was a trait of his that was completely dropped by ZTD). It's likely that I'll even wind up giving it the edge over 999 considered as a standalone story as well.
Didn't bother with the anime, as while it's universally praised, the consensus is that it cuts entirely too much, and it's therefore been said to be better to play the game first.
Didn't bother with the anime, as while it's universally praised, the consensus is that it cuts entirely too much, and it's therefore been said to be better to play the game first.
isaacnukem
Member
I liked them all.
psychowave
Member
I liked ZTD more than most people (I think?), but I still agree that Zero Escape didn't benefit from being a trilogy. There are so many dropped plot points between VLR and ZTD that it honestly seems like Uchikoshi forgot what he wanted to do with the characters during the period where it seemed ZTD was never going to happen.
999 is still a masterpiece and the best game in the series for me.
999 is still a masterpiece and the best game in the series for me.
The main thing I didn't like was how they just completely removed the whole Kyle/Blick Winkel aspect introduced at the end of VLR.
There are a few other things such as important 999 characters not even being referenced and such, but these didn't sting as badly.
I still enjoyed playing it and am glad it actually came out in the end. Hopefully his next game gets the proper funding it deserves.
There are a few other things such as important 999 characters not even being referenced and such, but these didn't sting as badly.
I still enjoyed playing it and am glad it actually came out in the end. Hopefully his next game gets the proper funding it deserves.
I mostly agree and would like to dwell on the point you make about jumping between plot points in time. Most people thought that was good design but what it actually did was drain all stress, dread, and seriousness out of VRL. Nothing really matters and all tension is transient because I can just hop somewhere else.
I'd also like to clarify that I think the setting and structure was well done in 999. They add to what the game did excellently - atmosphere. It's the specifics of the plot that kind of fall apart and are stupid.
Hey look, a random mummy.
ss_lemonade
Member
What I don't get about the 3rd game is why they removed some of the dual screen gameplay advantages from the previous game. The second screen is just there for no reason at all.
Similar threads
- Locked