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[guek]

The movie shows you she's a mechanic. If people are too daft to pick it up when she is FIXING SPACE VEHICLES then it's their own fault.

No, I'm not saying she's not a mechanic, but the poster I was responding to makes it seem like you find her working in a garage. You don't see her working on fixing ships until she's actually in the falcon. And that, I can swallow with ease. She takes apart ships for a living, she probably knows her way around em enough to help patch one up in an emergency. That's a logical step. But like I said, the movie shows her as a scavenger more than a mechanic, let alone a mechanic that lives and breathes ships and therefore knows how to fly. The movie doesn't show you that latter point at all. She doesn't make a living as a mechanic, she makes a living scavenging wrecks.

 

[deathkiller]

The movie shows you she's a mechanic. If people are too daft to pick it up when she is FIXING SPACE VEHICLES then it's their own fault.

What scene are you talking about? And wouldn't you agree that the movie stablish her more as a scavenger than as mechanic before she enters the Falcon?

 

[-griffy-]

No, I'm not saying she's not a mechanic, but the poster I was responding to makes it seem like you find her working in a garage. You don't see her working on fixing ships until she's actually in the falcon. And that, I can swallow with ease. She takes apart ships for a living, she probably knows her way around em enough to help patch one up in an emergency. That's a logical step. But like I said, the movie shows her as a scavenger more than a mechanic, let alone a mechanic that lives and breathes ships and therefore knows how to fly. The movie doesn't show you that latter point at all.

You mean like the introduction of the character literally taking place inside a ship? Or when we see her "home" and we see the wall of tick marks indicating that this is literally how she spends each and every day of her life, and where she has a hand made doll of a pilot, , and then she wears an old pilot helmet when eating and looking longingly at a ship leaving the planet?

 

[guek]

The question shouldn't be "How does Rey know this shit?" but "Why wouldn't Rey know this shit?" The context is there.

There's plenty of reason why she wouldn't know that shit! That's in the movie itself! She's never left the planet and has absolutely no interest in leaving so why would she devote all this time to learning to fly?

The question is "why would a scavenger know how to expertly fly a large ship."

Not "why would a mechanic", that's not even her occupation. People aren't asking for some random character to dish out exposition, it's just that the movie does little to show you why she has this knowledge when it conflicts so strongly with her desire to stay in one place. Show her working on a ship, show her reading flight manuals, whatever, show that shit or tell it, I don't care. The way it was done was just sloppy.

 

[guek]

You mean like the introduction of the character literally taking place inside a ship? Or when we see her "home" where she has a hand made doll of a pilot, and then she wears an old pilot helmet when eating and looking longingly at a ship leaving the planet?

So you see that and then jump to "oh, she must have learned on a simulator and devoted countless hours sneaking into ships and learning to pilot"

It makes more sense that she would want to learn how to fly a ship, but her circumstances still don't give a good explanation of how she actually learned without anyone there to teach her.

 

[mcfrank]

There's plenty of reason why she wouldn't know that shit! That's in the movie itself! She's never left the planet and has absolutely no interest in leaving so why would she devote all this time to learning to fly?

The question is "why would a scavenger know how to expertly fly a large ship."

Not "why would a mechanic", that's not even her occupation. People aren't asking for some random character to dish out exposition, it's just that the movie does little to show you why she has this knowledge when it conflicts so strongly with her desire to stay in one place. Show her working on a ship, show her reading flight manuals, whatever, show that shit or tell it, I don't care. The way it was done was just sloppy.

The movie very clearly establishes that she wants to leave the planet, but feels like she can't. Her trying on the pilots helmet and staring longingly at a ship leaving the planet was fairly clear character building to me.

 

[-griffy-]

So you see that and then jump to "oh, she must have learned on a simulator and devoted countless hours sneaking into ships and learning to pilot"

It makes more sense that she would want to learn how to fly a ship, but her circumstances still don't give a good explanation of how she actually learned without anyone there to teach her.

Nah, you're wrong. I'm literally saying the same shit I've said multiple times in several threads though so I'm done.

 

[Zabka]

What scene are you talking about? And wouldn't you agree that the movie stablish her more as a scavenger than as mechanic before she enters the Falcon?

I don't understand this hand wringing over when stuff is established. Sometimes characters just do stuff as a way to establish they know how to do it.

Rey says she's a pilot, she flies the ship
They get into space, she fixes the ship

Now we've established she can fly and she's a mechanic familiar with the ship without characters staring at each other and saying "I learned to fly on flight sims so I'm pretty good. Also Unkar Plutt, the rich junker, is like a foster parent and I've been working on his ships for years. Now let us continue with the plot."

 

[Surfinn]

The movie very clearly establishes that she wants to leave the planet, but feels like she can't. Her trying on the pilots helmet and staring longingly at a ship leaving the planet was fairly clear character building to me.

Yup. She wants to leave but doesn't want to abandon the chance of seeing her "family" again.

I don't understand this hand wringing over when stuff is established. Sometimes characters just do stuff as a way to establish they know how to do it.

Rey says she's a pilot, she flies the ship
They get into space, she fixes the ship

Now we've established she can fly and she's a mechanic familiar with the ship without characters staring at each other and saying "I learned to fly on flight sims so I'm pretty good. Also Unkar Plutt, the rich junker, is like a foster parent and I've been working on his ships for years. Now let us continue with the plot."

Right.. I don't get why this stuff needs to be spelled out for some people to be satisfied with it. I could see if she hadn't spent her entire life salvaging and working on components and didn't TELL THE AUDIENCE EXPLICITLY that she is a pilot ("we need a pilot" "we've got one!"). She's a pilot and is so strong in the force, she's involved with/causes its AWAKENING.

How is this not enough? Had she not stated she's a pilot and not been involved with the force's awakening or not been force sensitive at all, she'd DEFINITELY be a Mary Sue. But these things are given to us.

 

[Abounder]

Knowing how to drive a motorcycle doesn't mean you know anything about flying a jet.

I think it does in Star Wars and if you're a Skywalker. Luke's first time in a X-Wing he blew up the Death Star, and before that Anakin podraced and blew up Trade Federation warships as a kid in a Naboo fighter.

As for scavenger vs mechanic, they overlap. She knew where the lucrative and hard to reach parts were in the Star Destroyer, and had experience with the Falcon (that junk!). Being force sensitive is basically a cheatcode

 

[mcfrank]

I think it does in Star Wars and if you're a Skywalker. Luke's first time in a X-Wing he blew up the Death Star, and before that Anakin podraced and blew up blew up Trade Federation ships as a kid in a Naboo ship.

As for scavenger vs mechanic, they overlap. She knew where the lucrative and hard to reach parts were in the Star Destroyer, and had experience with the Falcon (that junk!). Being force sensitive is basically a cheatcode

Its fine when they do it though, because they are male. That is what this whole fucking stupid conversation boils down to and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Sick of it.

 

[Abounder]

Its fine when they do it though, because they are male. That is what this whole fucking stupid conversation boils down to and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Sick of it.

Pretty much.

 

[Zabka]

Right.. I don't get why this stuff needs to be spelled out for some people to be satisfied with it. I could see if she hadn't spent her entire life salvaging and working on components and didn't TELL THE AUDIENCE EXPLICITLY that she is a pilot ("we need a pilot" "we've got one!"). She's a pilot and is so strong in the force, she's involved with its AWAKENING.

How is this not enough? Had she not stated she's a pilot and not been involved with the force's awakening or not been force sensitive at all, she'd DEFINITELY be a Mary Sue. But these things are given to us.

I'm still waiting on the explanation for why Poe Dameron is such a good pilot. They said he's a great pilot, then he flies really well. It's never been properly established where he learned to fly so well!

It's bullshit.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I'm still waiting on the explanation for why Poe Dameron is such a good pilot. They said he's a great pilot, then he flies really well. It's never been properly established where he learned to fly so well!

It's bullshit.

Poe is a Skywalker

 

[Wolfe]

Poe is a Skywalker

Poe is Luke.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Poe is Luke.

Poe is Lukes dark side.

I'm sorry, that's a horrible joke. I'll see myself out.

 

[mcfrank]

You could say the same of Rey but she is more powerful in the force in the space of a few hours than someone who is implied to have been training with the force for years and is comparatively pretty OP at that.

Are you going to ignore that the movie spent 3 scenes establishing that Chewie's bolt-caster is a bad ass weapon that destroys people and then Kylo Ren gets shot with it right before the fight... I guess you are.

 

[guek]

Its fine when they do it though, because they are male. That is what this whole fucking stupid conversation boils down to and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Sick of it.

Not at all. It was fucking stupid when Anakin blew up the droid command center. Luke was a decent pilot who, by shear luck rather than any fancy flying, turned out to be the sole remaining x-wing pilot. This isn't a matter of sexism, even if it is common with the criticism historically levied at these types of characters.

Look guys, if Rey worked for you, that's great. I'm glad you enjoyed the movie as much as you did. But just because it didn't work for me and for many others doesn't automatically mean sexism is the root cause. No one is asking for dull exposition to fill in the gaps. TFA just has a lot of little hiccups in storytelling that in isolation are easily ignored but when added together, can leave an unsatisfactory taste in some people's mouths. And in others, those hiccups aren't even felt! What works for some doesn't always work for others, and Abrams style of storytelling has never particularly worked well for me.

 

[Wolfe]

Poe is Lukes dark side.

I'm sorry, that's a horrible joke. I'll see myself out.

As bad as it was it got a nice laugh out of me.

 

[mcfrank]

Not at all. It was fucking stupid when Anakin blew up the droid command center. Luke was a decent pilot who, by shear luck rather than any fancy flying, turned out to be the sole remaining x-wing pilot. This isn't a matter of sexism, even if it is common with the criticism historically levied at these types of characters.

Look guys, if Rey worked for you, that's great. I'm glad you enjoyed the movie as much as you did. But just because it didn't work for me and for many others doesn't automatically mean sexism is the root cause. No one is asking for dull exposition to fill in the gaps. TFA just has a lot of little hiccups in storytelling that in isolation are easily ignored but when added together, can leave an unsatisfactory taste in some people's mouths. And in others, those hiccups aren't even felt! What works for some doesn't always work for others, and Abrams style of storytelling has never particularly worked well for me.

No offense, but keep telling yourself that.

 

[Principate]

Are you going to ignore that the movie spent 3 scenes establishing that Chewie's bolt-caster is a bad ass weapon that destroys people and then Kylo Ren gets shot with it right before the fight... I guess you are.

No I'm talking about that part where he gets shit scared of her and is unable to overpower her novice self before that even happens, kicks her ass, and she even overpower his force pull.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Not at all. It was fucking stupid when Anakin blew up the droid command center. Luke was a decent pilot who, by shear luck rather than any fancy flying, turned out to be the sole remaining x-wing pilot. This isn't a matter of sexism, even if it is common with the criticism historically levied at these types of characters.

Look guys, if Rey worked for you, that's great. I'm glad you enjoyed the movie as much as you did. But just because it didn't work for me and for many others doesn't automatically mean sexism is the root cause. No one is asking for dull exposition to fill in the gaps. TFA just has a lot of little hiccups in storytelling that in isolation are easily ignored but when added together, can leave an unsatisfactory taste in some people's mouths. And in others, those hiccups aren't even felt! What works for some doesn't always work for others, and Abrams style of storytelling has never particularly worked well for me.

I'm back, I pulled an Abe Simpson. Except I came back in.

Anakin it's explained that well, his owner had him do mechanic things and he wanted to podrace.

Luke wanted to fly shit. Like Rey, he had his little...car thing he drove around. He also worked on his robots so he had some mechanical training.

Rey is a junker/mechanic who can recognize components, her foster parent owns ships and she shows knowledge of the Falcon.

None of these characters are inserts with unexplained powers. None of them are Mary Sues. I suppose the Force is an aspect of Mary Sue-That is, it grants some power to its users. But either way, the characters themselves are established as having skills.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I'm absolutely amazed people really would use that label on Rey. Her fears about leaving Jakku, fear of Kylo at first, unwillingness to accept her destiny (whereas Luke just says "fuck it lets go!"), are all flaws of character. That alone negates that idiotic Mary Sue label.

Again, Anakin is a Mary Sue. Luke is a Mary Sue (in ANH, ESB does a good job showing him as human), and Rey isn't anywhere close to it.

Saying "Oh well it seemed like she was in the movie so idgaf if her abilities are explained elsewhere in canon media" while also her ignoring her very real flaws/weaknesses/depth shown in the movie is not a valid reason nor evidence.

I can't ever remember these discussions going on about the male Jedi in the series though. Funny how its a female and everyone freaks out now.

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

Did anyone realize that the next movie will answer all your damn questions?

Its crazy that some of y'all are going at it trying to breakdown a movie that was clearly just 100% setup for a trilogy franchise.

 

[guek]

No offense, but keep telling yourself that.

No offense, but your emotional connection to this movie prevents you from differentiating criticism derived from sexism and poor storytelling.

Kylo Ren not being one shotted by a direct hit from a bowcaster that sends storm troopers flying was also pretty dumb. But hey, so are stormtroopers never being able to hit anything.

 

[Principate]

No offense, but your emotional connection to this movie prevents you from differentiating criticism derived from sexism and poor storytelling.

Kylo Ren not being one shotted by a direct hit from a bowcaster that sends storm troopers flying was also pretty dumb. But hey, so are stormtroopers never being able to hit anything.

I forget how was Kylo Ren even hit by that thing, Jedi are almost never hit by any blasters whatsoever. Limited pre-cog and all that.

 

[QuantumZebra]

No offense, but your emotional connection to this movie prevents you from differentiating criticism derived from sexism and poor storytelling.

Kylo Ren not being one shotted by a direct hit from a bowcaster that sends storm troopers flying was also pretty dumb. But hey, so are stormtroopers never being able to hit anything.

Yep. Totally unrealistic. And those lightsabers, don't even get me started. What is the force anyway??

Spoiler

movies... how do they work?

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I'm absolutely amazed people really would use that label on Rey. Her fears about leaving Jakku, fear of Kylo at first, unwillingness to accept her destiny (whereas Luke just says "fuck it lets go!"), are all flaws of character. That alone negates that idiotic Mary Sue label.

Again, Anakin is a Mary Sue. Luke is a Mary Sue (in ANH, ESB does a good job showing him as human), and Rey isn't anywhere close to it.

Saying "Oh well it seemed like she was in the movie so idgaf if her abilities are explained elsewhere in canon media" while also her ignoring her very real flaws/weaknesses/depth shown in the movie is not a valid reason nor evidence.

I can't ever remember these discussions going on about the male Jedi in the series though. Funny how its a female and everyone freaks out now.

Like I explained, you calling Anakin a mary sue means that you're basically calling Rey that, Kappa. hell half the plot of Phantom Menace is how Anakin is working on a pod racer so he can race in the pod...tournament. He's shown to be an adept mechanic(Which is further fleshed out through the comics and tie-ins).

Rey is basically the same, she's shown to be a junker with knowledge of various ships and working with the mechanical innards of said ships(After all it starts her out scaling a Destroyer).

Like it or not, both Anakin and Rey are similar in that regard, and if you call Anakin a Mary Sue, then you are calling Rey one, too.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Luke was never a Mary Sue. Dude took plenty of L's.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Luke was never a Mary Sue. Dude took plenty of L's.

I would say that Luke is the most Mary Sue of the 3 because unlike Rey or Anakin, he isn't shown to have aptitude with a machine like an X-Wing(Anakin pod raced, Rey had access to the Falcon).

But like mentioned, that was mainly in ANH. If we're judging the Mary Sue Power Levels of each character based on their first movies, then Luke was the highest of them all.

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

You don't feel like there will be more progression for her as a character and force user?

Kylo was clearly toying with Finn. Even injured and in a weakened mental state, he dominated the fight from beginning to end, only to realize he slightly underestimated his combative abilities (Finn had melee training as a stormtrooper), then proceeds to ruin him. Kylo gives a deliberate "enough fucking around" look and finishes it. He's so much more powerful than Finn that he clocks him in the face before slashing him in the back.

Kylo's character has always been about proving his power. His way of doing that was showing Finn that he really didn't have any chance, slowly exerting his dominance throughout their short encounter.

I can see them fleshing her out a lot more, saying where she really came from or showing what kind of force user she really is, but as for now I feel like she was just "given" all these powers all at once. Kind of like they rushed trying to cram the basics into one film that they made her way over powered on accident, because I don't see any jedi taking out their superior with no real training. Especially someone trained by the last (known) Jedi left. I may have to rewatch the other two trilogies, but I don't remember them getting that many powers in the span of one movie.

I would say that Luke is the most Mary Sue of the 3 because unlike Rey or Anakin, he isn't shown to have aptitude with a machine like an X-Wing(Anakin pod raced, Rey had access to the Falcon).

But like mentioned, that was mainly in ANH. If we're judging the Mary Sue Power Levels of each character based on their first movies, then Luke was the highest of them all.

Holy shit, I really do need to rewatch everything.

 

[Principate]

Like I explained, you calling Anakin a mary sue means that you're basically calling Rey that, Kappa. hell half the plot of Phantom Menace is how Anakin is working on a pod racer so he can race in the pod...tournament. He's shown to be an adept mechanic(Which is further fleshed out through the comics and tie-ins).

Rey is basically the same, she's shown to be a junker with knowledge of various ships and working with the mechanical innards of said ships(After all it starts her out scaling a Destroyer).

Like it or not, both Anakin and Rey are similar in that regard, and if you call Anakin a Mary Sue, then you are calling Rey one, too.

Anakin was established to be far more exceptional than Rey ever was. I mean sure it was ridiculous he could pilot space ships so well, but he was a prodigy and the only human podracer. Rey is a random girl who awakens the force as in from onset she's no more exceptional than any Jedi ever in that respect. Anakin was an exceptional pilot even amongst the Jedi and that was already established before he pulled his shit. It's also the only thing he's actually great at.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I can see them fleshing her out a lot more, saying where she really came from or showing what kind of force user she really is, but as for now I feel like she was just "given" all these powers all at once. Kind of like they rushed trying to cram the basics into one film that they made her way over powered on accident, because I don't see any jedi taking out their superior with no real training. Especially someone trained by the last (known) Jedi left. I may have to rewatch the other two trilogies, but I don't remember them getting that many powers in the span of one movie.

Rey had training with her staff, a weapon not unlike a lightsaber(In which it's been dissected in the Spoiler thread that she fought with the lightsaber like a staff).

And again, at that point Kylo was shot with a bolt caster(Chekovs Gun if you will, shown to cause great damage), and being slashed by Finn. He was hurting badly.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Like I explained, you calling Anakin a mary sue means that you're basically calling Rey that, Kappa. hell half the plot of Phantom Menace is how Anakin is working on a pod racer so he can race in the pod...tournament. He's shown to be an adept mechanic(Which is further fleshed out through the comics and tie-ins).

Rey is basically the same, she's shown to be a junker with knowledge of various ships and working with the mechanical innards of said ships(After all it starts her out scaling a Destroyer).

Like it or not, both Anakin and Rey are similar in that regard, and if you call Anakin a Mary Sue, then you are calling Rey one, too.

So pod-racing = being an expert pilot of starships?

I guess if you ride a go-kart you can jump in a big rig and ride off?

Rey had 1000s of hours in a flight sim, her speeder is capable of high altitude flight, and she flew a ship before. And even then she STILL was running the Falcon into everything in her path before she finally got ahold of it.

Anakin goes from go-karts > spaceships like its nothing.

Please.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Like I explained, you calling Anakin a mary sue means that you're basically calling Rey that, Kappa. hell half the plot of Phantom Menace is how Anakin is working on a pod racer so he can race in the pod...tournament. He's shown to be an adept mechanic(Which is further fleshed out through the comics and tie-ins).

Rey is basically the same, she's shown to be a junker with knowledge of various ships and working with the mechanical innards of said ships(After all it starts her out scaling a Destroyer).

Like it or not, both Anakin and Rey are similar in that regard, and if you call Anakin a Mary Sue, then you are calling Rey one, too.

Anakin also builds a sentient droid from scratch and blows up the big ship at the end literally by accident the first time he ever gets into a ship. And he's 10. And that's before we get into the immaculate birth stuff.

At any rate, the entire discussion is founded on somewhat faulty ground. Cyan's posts from up thread (before he saw what was actually being argued and bailed) addressed this:

Now that I've finally seen the movie: lolololol

The character that most fits Mary Sue tropes is actually Kylo Ren. OC who's a child of two of the previous leads, trained by the third, grandson of Darth Vader, strong in the force, has his own special lightsaber, turns out to basically be a kid under the mask. Oh, and he kills off a lead. Would be suuuuuper suspect if this was a fanfic.

I didn't really have a problem with him, though. (Or Rey, obvs.)

No, being liked isn't it. Being important is what matters, especially in relation to the original material. Let's take Harry Potter fandom. Kylo Ren would be the equivalent of, say, Hermione and Ron having a kid, who is trained in magic by Harry, is somehow the heir of Voldemort, has a cool magic wand that is different from everyone else's, is high up in the badguy hierarchy despite being a kid, etc etc. That is a whole lot of boxes ticked. It doesn't matter that he loses--of course the bad guy is going to lose in the end.

I'm not sure I'm reading you right, but if so that's not correct. People generally don't like Mary Sues (cf. Wesley Crusher). No one except the author wants to live vicariously through them. A cool character that people want to live vicariously through isn't a Mary Sue, that's just a character. Luke Skywalker is just a character. Han Solo is just a character. etc.

The whole idea of a Mary Sue comes from fanfiction. This isn't a connection I'm making, that's what it is. It's in reference to people writing Star Trek fanfics and adding their own new characters who are super special ("the youngest communications officer in Starfleet, smarter than Spock, a better doctor than Bones," etc) and who don't fit well with the universe, because they're obviously the author just wanting to be in that universe themselves.

This is what makes those characters a problem. They're not interesting to anyone outside the author.

The actual meaning of Mary Sue, rather than the heap of crap from Max Landis that spawned the initial Rey as Mary Sue discussion, also precludes her.

 

[Surfinn]

Like I explained, you calling Anakin a mary sue means that you're basically calling Rey that, Kappa. hell half the plot of Phantom Menace is how Anakin is working on a pod racer so he can race in the pod...tournament. He's shown to be an adept mechanic(Which is further fleshed out through the comics and tie-ins).

Rey is basically the same, she's shown to be a junker with knowledge of various ships and working with the mechanical innards of said ships(After all it starts her out scaling a Destroyer).

Like it or not, both Anakin and Rey are similar in that regard, and if you call Anakin a Mary Sue, then you are calling Rey one, too.

The prequels are made so poorly that I'm not sure it's even a worthwhile comparison. Anakin is such a bad, unrelatable and unbelievable character, I think being a Mary Sue (or examining that) is fairly pointless. You're taking about a movie where a miscast child actor accidentally does almost everything important for the sake of it being cute.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So pod-racing = being an expert pilot of starships?

I guess if you ride a go-kart you can jump in a big rig and ride off?

Rey had 1000s of hours in a flight sim, her speeder is capable of high altitude flight, and she flew a ship before. And even then she STILL was running the Falcon into everything in her path before she finally got ahold of it.

Anakin goes from go-karts > spaceships like its nothing.

Please.

"Flight Sim". "Speeder capable of High altitude flight". "Flew a ship before." Did we see the same movie? >_>;

Anakin also builds a sentient droid from scratch and blows up the big ship at the end literally by accident the first time he ever gets into a ship. And he's 10. And that's before we get into the immaculate birth stuff.

At any rate, the entire discussion is founded on somewhat faulty ground. Cyan's posts from up thread (before he saw what was actually being argued) addressed this:

The actual meaning of Mary Sue, rather than the heap of crap from Max Landis that spawned the initial Rey as Mary Sue discussion, also precludes her.

Star Wars is a faulty series. But Anakin is a human prodigy, those exist(Didn't some kid build a BB-8 robot? 17 year old, but he's probably not a prodigy.) Look at Mozart, he built his first musical compositions at 5 years old. In a world where robots are a dime a dozen, it's not farfetched for a prodigy to build one.

And like I mentioned, The Force itself is a Mary-Sue-ificator, imbuing those that have it with...greater powers.

(I'm just humoring the Mary Sue conversation because it's fun, but my opinion is that neither Anakin nor Rey are Mary Sues. To me, myself, a Mary Sue is 'Oh this character is the best at everything and feels like the author just put him in to represent himself, I don't see that in Anakin. Except scoring with Padme, that was straight up Orwellian bullshit).

 

[Future PhaZe]

I would say that Luke is the most Mary Sue of the 3 because unlike Rey or Anakin, he isn't shown to have aptitude with a machine like an X-Wing(Anakin pod raced, Rey had access to the Falcon).

But like mentioned, that was mainly in ANH. If we're judging the Mary Sue Power Levels of each character based on their first movies, then Luke was the highest of them all.

luke was known to be a great pilot in ANH

and he didn't even destroy any tie fighters in that x-wing...just let everybody around him get melted and then used the force and his skills to make a tough shot

then gets rekt throughout the entirety of ESB, gets surprised and nearly killed by Jabba in RotJ and then nearly electrocuted to death by the end of RotJ

 

[BreezyLimbo]

luke was known to be a great pilot in ANH

and he didn't even destroy any tie fighters in that x-wing...just let everybody around him get melted and then used the force and his skills to make a tough shot

then gets rekt throughout the entirety of ESB, gets surprised and nearly killed by Jabba in RotJ and then nearly electrocuted to death by the end of RotJ

I'll be honest

All I remember of Luke in ANH is that he wouldn't drink his milk his aunt put out for him.

 

[QuantumZebra]

The prequels are made so poorly that I'm not sure it's even a worthwhile comparison. Anakin is such a bad, unrelatable and unbelievable character, I think being a Mary Sue (or examining that) is fairly pointless. You're taking about a movie where a miscast child actor accidentally does almost everything important for the sake of it being cute.

Yea the PT from ground-up are just abhorrent when it comes to character development and even attempting to make things believable in an unbelievable setting. Almost all revelations are done for fan-service and making things "cool for kids".

Which it then itself shits on by having Anakin go totally schizo and slaughter kids.

Just awful in all aspects of storytelling.

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

Rey had training with her staff, a weapon not unlike a lightsaber(In which it's been dissected in the Spoiler thread that she fought with the lightsaber like a staff).

And again, at that point Kylo was shot with a bolt caster(Chekovs Gun if you will, shown to cause great damage), and being slashed by Finn. He was hurting badly.

Training against experienced people? Training in the force against experienced people?

One has all that while another doesn't. Even that badly injured I don't see him losing especially since she used the force to win. I would imagine being trained at a young age in combat and the force he would at least be able to keep his shit together with the force.

That's just my thoughts on the movie. Maybe I'm just placing too much value on his bloodline.

 

[Surfinn]

"Flight Sim". "Speeder capable of High altitude flight". "Flew a ship before." Did we see the same movie? >_>;



Star Wars is a faulty series. But Anakin is a human prodigy, those exist(Didn't some kid build a BB-8 robot? 17 year old, but he's probably not a prodigy.) Look at Mozart, he built his first musical compositions at 5 years old. In a world where robots are a dime a dozen, it's not farfetched for a prodigy to build one.

And like I mentioned, The Force itself is a Mary-Sue-ificator, imbuing those that have it with...greater powers.

(I'm just humoring the Mary Sue conversation because it's fun, but my opinion is that neither Anakin nor Rey are Mary Sues. To me, myself, a Mary Sue is 'Oh this character is the best at everything and feels like the author just put him in to represent himself, I don't see that in Anakin. Except scoring with Padme, that was straight up Orwellian bullshit).

So you can turn any one of these types of movies into some sort of Mary Sue argument. The force has always been a metaphor for one's inner power. We're dealing with sci-fi fantasy adventure.. If you have an issue with it you're probably just not going to find much enjoyment with the franchise.

It's not a worthwhile discussion.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Training against experienced people? Training in the force against experienced people?

One has all that while another doesn't. Even that badly injured I don't see him losing especially since she used the force to win. I would imagine being trained at a young age in combat and the force he would at least be able to keep his shit together with the force.

That's just my thoughts on the movie. Maybe I'm just placing too much value on his bloodline.

Kylo was badly injured. Why do you think he's smacking himself? And yes, I would imagine that if you live over 10 years on a most likely hostile planet by yourself, you learn to fight. It's conceivable-in a non Mary-Sue way-that Rey beat Kylo. It's not even a question, she had all the 'pre-requisite' skill to do so. Rey isn't a Mary Sue like you think she is.

So you can turn any one of these types of movies into some sort of Mary Sue argument. The force has always been a metaphor for one's inner power. We're feeling with sci-fi fantasy adventure.. If you have an issue with it you're probably just not going to find much enjoyment with the franchise.

It's not a worthwhile discussion.

Think about the Force. "What if I had this awesome power to move things with my mind, and I just had this awesome power inside of me." Implant a character like that in any story. There is a Mary-Sue-ification attached to the Force when it comes to all the protagonists of the Star Wars movies.

I see the Force as amplifying ones natural abiltiies, thus why Anakin wins a pod race and is a great mechanic, why Luke can aim down an impossible trench shot, and why Rey is a good fighter and can fly ships. It's an amplification of power. If you have the Force, you're suddenly more important than the random joe trooper.(Sorry Finn, we don't know if you're Force-imbued)

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't know if she counts as a Canon Sue, but I do know that she was a less interesting character than Finn by a lot.

 

[-griffy-]

Kylo was badly injured. Why do you think he's smacking himself? And yes, I would imagine that if you live over 10 years on a most likely hostile planet by yourself, you learn to fight. It's conceivable-in a non Mary-Sue way-that Rey beat Kylo. It's not even a question, she had all the 'pre-requisite' skill to do so. Rey isn't a Mary Sue like you think she is.

We in fact see first hand that she knows how to fight when she singlehandedly takes care of the goons Unkar sent to steal BB-8, and then proceeds to knock Finn flat on his ass.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I don't know if she counts as a Canon Sue, but I do know that she was a less interesting character than Finn by a lot.

You leave Daisy Ridley alone she was amazing in the movie.

We in fact see first hand that she knows how to fight when she singlehandedly takes care of the goons Unkar sent to steal BB-8, and then proceeds to knock Finn flat on his ass.

Yup. She knows how to fight. We are shown that. Just like we are shown the Bolt Caster blows away regular troopers.

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

Kylo was badly injured. Why do you think he's smacking himself? And yes, I would imagine that if you live over 10 years on a most likely hostile planet by yourself, you learn to fight. It's conceivable-in a non Mary-Sue way-that Rey beat Kylo. It's not even a question, she had all the 'pre-requisite' skill to do so. Rey isn't a Mary Sue like you think she is.

Did I say she was a Mary Sue? At this point I'm talking about experience. If she can use the force to excel at fighting why couldn't the clearly more experienced force user do the same?

Was she not losing the battle before whispering "the force" and then taping into it? I'm just not seeing how he couldn't do the same unless he was using it to keep himself from dying from his wound.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Did I say she was a Mary Sue? At this point I'm talking about experience. If she can use the force to excel at fighting why couldn't the clearly more experienced force user do the same?

It's hard to follow conversations. I'm tired. I need coffee. Leave me alone, senpai.

But like I mentioned, Kylo Ren was shot by a Bolt Caster(Shown before to absolutely send regular people flying), he's losing blood(Has to hit himself to keep focused), and was injured by Finn(Before he expertly dispatched him.)

Heck, he had the upper hand in the fight against Rey until she focused on internalizing the Mar-I mean Force to beat him. Kylo was unfocused, he was trying to persuade her to get Rey on his side. He was in pain. She wasn't. She had been knocked against a tree, but that wasn't as damaging as what Kylo went through.

 

[guek]

I'm back, I pulled an Abe Simpson. Except I came back in.

Anakin it's explained that well, his owner had him do mechanic things and he wanted to podrace.

Luke wanted to fly shit. Like Rey, he had his little...car thing he drove around. He also worked on his robots so he had some mechanical training.

Rey is a junker/mechanic who can recognize components, her foster parent owns ships and she shows knowledge of the Falcon.

None of these characters are inserts with unexplained powers. None of them are Mary Sues. I suppose the Force is an aspect of Mary Sue-That is, it grants some power to its users. But either way, the characters themselves are established as having skills.

Here's the difference -

Anakin knew how to podrace because he actively built podracers and was a mechanical genius. His ability to fly a ship was presented as a happy little accident due to him being locked in the cockpit and the ship switching to autopilot. His role in the battle of Naboo was pretty dumb and heavily criticized, as it should be. Anakin being a mechanical genius doesn't give any explanation for him being able to fly a starfighter like an expert, and the image of this little kid being the one to turn the battle around all by himself was rightfully mocked back when TPM released and is still mocked today.

Luke worked as a farm hand but did not live in extreme poverty. He wasn't a slave, he was the nephew of the farm owner who appeared to be at least modestly successful. It's pointed out multiple times that he knew how to fly a ship, and we get to see that he's competent at best. When the movie reaches its climax, it's only then that is he able to really tap into the force and make the clutch shot. His entire story arch in ANH builds to that moment. Luke is whiny, he's unlikeable, and no one but Ben seems to enjoy his company much at all for most of the film. Luke's one big triumph in ANH is blowing up the Death Star.

Rey grows up a scavenger alone on a desert planet in the care of someone who clearly has no affection for her. She is at the very bottom of the rung in her little society and is portrayed as worth so little, her foster parent doesn't mind having her ruffed up to steal from her. Unlike Anakin or Luke, Rey grows up with no one to raise her or look out for her. She also is dead set on staying on the planet until her family return. The most we see out of her before her run in with Finn is that she lives in a plane and can take apart ships and no one cares about her. After meeting Finn, we're told she's able to pilot a ship. But it's not just that, she's not just competent like Luke. She's spectacular like Anakin. Her ability to pilot is a surprise to Finn, the POV character, and in turn meant to be a surprise to the audience. This is where I feel the storytelling falters, because unlike with Luke (and to a lesser degree, Anakin), we don't get any build up to her ability to pilot so well. It's not at the climax of the movie like with the other two characters. And unlike Luke, she pulls off some really impressive maneuvers that you'd expect from someone who has been flying for years. OK, I guess she's a good pilot. I can buy this development if I have to. But as I said, this isn't the climax of the film. The surprise abilities keep coming for her. She outsmarts Han Solo in his own ship and fixes the Falcon. She saves Finn from a tentacle monster that had previously been killing everything it touches. She overpower's Ren's mind probe. She masters force persuasion, something she's only heard about in stories, in about a minute. She evades detection in the heart of Starkiller base (except when she's magically spotted by Finn when the plot requires). She force pulls a saber from the snow on her first try out from the clutches of a seasoned force user. She holds her own on her first encounter using a light saber against a trained saber user. Then, the moment her disadvantage is pressed, she is able to tap into the force and overpower Ren. A moment that should have been the climax of the movie is just another moment in a long list of incredible feats. What's the moment of climax in ANH? It's not when the Death Star explodes. It's when Luke lands the torpedos into the vent and you see him breathe a sigh of relief. I personally never felt that kind of tension at any point with Rey, though I imagine many other people in this thread disagree.

And none of this accounts for some of the other ill conceived story choices such as Poe being temporarily removed solely for the sake of the plot, the Falcon being unlocked and easily stolen from a camp full of miscreants, a janitor knowing how to disable Starkiller Base, running into Phasma on a huge base exactly when they needed to without being detected by anyone else, Finn accidentally finding Rey when everyone else in the base is frantically searching for her, the bowcaster only maiming Ren when it's been previously shown to easily kill others, etc. etc. A lot of my personal problems with Rey stem from problems I had with the movie as a whole.

But all that said, I did like it! I truly did! I just didn't love it, and there are lots of reasons why. I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue. I've never made that claim. I do think her development was truncated though.

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

It's hard to follow conversations. I'm tired. I need coffee. Leave me alone, senpai.

But like I mentioned, Kylo Ren was shot by a Bolt Caster(Shown before to absolutely send regular people flying), he's losing blood(Has to hit himself to keep focused), and was injured by Finn(Before he expertly dispatched him.)

Heck, he had the upper hand in the fight against Rey until she focused on internalizing the Mar-I mean Force to beat him. Kylo was unfocused, he was trying to persuade her to get Rey on his side. He was in pain. She wasn't. She had been knocked against a tree, but that wasn't as damaging as what Kylo went through.

I've never said she was Mary Sue and to be honest I didn't even know what that was until I saw people posting about it... I just kept saying she took a deep breath and went Super Sayan like I was reading a Shonen Jump.