m_shortpants
Member
Maybe they immediately started building a second in parallel once they saw its power. Imagine having a fleet of death stars.
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Rogue One: A Star Wars Story |OT| They rebel - SPOILERS
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Maybe they immediately started building a second in parallel once they saw its power. Imagine having a fleet of death stars.
Pantaghana
Member
Finally got around to watching it a few days ago, really enjoyed it. Not sure how it stacks up to TFA for me, the characters were a bit less interesting but the pacing is much better.
Finally watched it. After the utterly disappointing TFA I didn't bother reading any news about Rogue One and I'm glad because I was very pleasently surprised.
Heck that's probably an understatement, I was enjoying this movie so much. It felt like one of the old movies. Great loveable characters, a story that I understood, good pacing and acting, the costumes and sets, the camera in the space battle, everything was simply great. The comedy part with the robot was also well done.
And this being a spin off I didn't expect so many known and famous faces. My heart got all warm and fuzzy after seeing Senator Organa
So yeah after the blergh TFA I'm all for more Star Wars movies if they are anything like this. I also saw in the end that this movie was partially written by Gary Whitta, which was nice.
The only off putting things:
- cgi Tarkin
- AT-AT behaving like an animal after being hit
And that one guy was totally a Mandalorian right?
Heck that's probably an understatement, I was enjoying this movie so much. It felt like one of the old movies. Great loveable characters, a story that I understood, good pacing and acting, the costumes and sets, the camera in the space battle, everything was simply great. The comedy part with the robot was also well done.
And this being a spin off I didn't expect so many known and famous faces. My heart got all warm and fuzzy after seeing Senator Organa
So yeah after the blergh TFA I'm all for more Star Wars movies if they are anything like this. I also saw in the end that this movie was partially written by Gary Whitta, which was nice.
The only off putting things:
- cgi Tarkin
- AT-AT behaving like an animal after being hit
And that one guy was totally a Mandalorian right?
FWIW I share almost all of your concerns with TFA, and I don't really love the movie either. That said,
the bolded is not my read of Kylo Ren at all. I think the whole point of him killing Han Solo was him finally shutting out the light side, for good. It's there in the dialogue too, that he knows he have to something but doesn't think that he can do it, will Han help him? And then it turns out he didn't mean turning good, he meant fully embracing the dark side. There's also a bit of interesting deliberate visual symbolism in that scene that I haven't seen anyone on the net/GAF discuss, which is that all the light from the sun vanishes from the room right before he kills Han. It's part of the plot thread from the X-wing battle outside, but it appears to also visually symbolize Kylo's complete turn to the dark side. Just a neat observation.
But that's what makes Kylo such an interesting character to me, instead of being mustache twirlingly evil from the jump like Vader, he was conflicted. Story arc-wise I think he's going to be the reverse image of Vader; instead of of being horribly evil but ultimately redeemable, he's going to be potentially good but become ultimately irredeemable. He's tremendously interesting because I think the writers knew there was no fucking possible way to one up Vader as a villain, he's one of the best villains in cinema history. So Kylo was intended to subvert expectations, he's a scary guy in a mask who turns out to be kind of a conflicted wannabe kid, but is becoming increasingly genuine evil. And he's gonna have all the rage and anger (and cool scars) at losing to Rey to further warp him down his path, and Snoke has yet to complete his training. He's on an interesting trajectory if the other movies are good.
mcz117chief
Member
Yeah, I'm glad he isn't. That is the best thing about the TFA for me. Although I would like at least one proper villain to be in the movie. You have heroes on one side and then nothing on the other, in that regard the story feels extremely one sides.
That's boring. Why make his character so one dimensional? Kylo Ren = just plain evil, full stop? I would like his character to grow and develop as the movies go, not stay the same until his death.
Saw this for a second time last night and I still quite enjoyed it, however the standout flaw to me is in Jynn's character. Her characterization is thin, all over the map and Felicity Jones is a one-dimensional actress. I was emotionally affected by the father-daughter dynamic but her character is paper-thin and her heel-turn in the last act is unearned. In a single scene following her father's death, she transitions from a lost, aimless prisoner of war under cover of a different name to someone giving a rousing speech to the rebel council, a council filled with people who have dedicated their entire lives to the cause of rebellion. They should have cut the scene with Vader and spent more time with the crew or gave them a few more scenes on Yavin 4, before the meeting with the council. The scene with Vader was great fan service but it was completely unnecessary to the plot
KeyBladerXIII
Member
Saw this for the second time today with my cousin, who has never seen a single Star Wars-related thing in her life. Before this, she only knew who Vader, Leia, and R2 were, just by general exposure elsewhere.
She absolutely loved it and was able to keep up with what was going on, even with the new terminology for her. She was really torn up over Chirrut's and K2's deaths.
Now she wants to watch everything else. Lucasfilm, it seems you've gotten-
She absolutely loved it and was able to keep up with what was going on, even with the new terminology for her. She was really torn up over Chirrut's and K2's deaths.
Now she wants to watch everything else. Lucasfilm, it seems you've gotten-
Saw this for the second time today with my cousin, who has never seen a single Star Wars-related thing in her life. Before this, she only knew who Vader, Leia, and R2 were, just by general exposure elsewhere.
She absolutely loved it and was able to keep up with what was going on, even with the new terminology for her. She was really torn up over Chirrut's and K2's deaths.
Now she wants to watch everything else. Lucasfilm, it seems you've gotten-
Really interesting hearing that. Kind of flies in the face of the RLM criticism that the movie didn't do enough to establish the universe, the conflict and what the force is etc
mcz117chief
Member
Her "heel-turn" is completely earned. She loved her father and her father gave up everything he loved to save the galaxy, this fact has proved to her that fighting for the rebellion is something she must do at any cost. People who are "dry" are the ones who can change the most vigorously. Irreligious people can become steadfast believers after one incident for example, I have seen that personally many times. Once she saw that her father gave up everything for the Rebellion she took it upon herself to do the same and complete his life's work, the destruction of the Death Star.
And it was also the finest, most incredible moment Vader has ever gotten as an evil space knight. Finally we got to see him do some serious damage and spread dread like never before. One of my favourite Star Wars moments.
I was referring to the meeting on Mustafar, not the ending
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Sometimes things happen in movies that aren't 100% in service of the plot, or larger story arc. This is not always a flaw. Often this is a good thing.
Coming at a movie solely from the standpoint that "all these puzzle pieces don't fit snugly and the larger whole isn't maximized for efficiency" isn't necessarily invalid, but not every movie is trying to be (or should be) the storytelling equivalent of a modular apartment, either.
Rogue One is a flawed film, absolutely. There are 8 Star Wars films and it's probably smack in the middle. I don't like it as much as The Force Awakens. But the fact the Star Wars movie stops down to do Star Wars stuff every now and again isn't an automatic negative, and I don't know why the hell it would be. The fact the 8th Star Wars movie asks you to have some sort of familiarity with Star Wars is an inherent fault that comes up about ankle-high on an Ewok.
"The movie doesn't work because hypothetical people who have hypothetically never heard of Star Wars are going to be so hypothetically dense as to not understand the fairly basic storytelling on display without first having memorized Wookiepedia" is a really specific and silly criticism to level, especially in the face of the 30 or so way more valid criticisms you could level at the 8th Star Wars film in the series.
Coming at a movie solely from the standpoint that "all these puzzle pieces don't fit snugly and the larger whole isn't maximized for efficiency" isn't necessarily invalid, but not every movie is trying to be (or should be) the storytelling equivalent of a modular apartment, either.
Rogue One is a flawed film, absolutely. There are 8 Star Wars films and it's probably smack in the middle. I don't like it as much as The Force Awakens. But the fact the Star Wars movie stops down to do Star Wars stuff every now and again isn't an automatic negative, and I don't know why the hell it would be. The fact the 8th Star Wars movie asks you to have some sort of familiarity with Star Wars is an inherent fault that comes up about ankle-high on an Ewok.
"The movie doesn't work because hypothetical people who have hypothetically never heard of Star Wars are going to be so hypothetically dense as to not understand the fairly basic storytelling on display without first having memorized Wookiepedia" is a really specific and silly criticism to level, especially in the face of the 30 or so way more valid criticisms you could level at the 8th Star Wars film in the series.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Last second bit of rumormongering that suggested the Rebel Alliance meeting would include Sio Bibble and Jar Jar Binks in a cameo.
Basically Jyn would be making her case and they'd be in a corner of the room somewhere nodding and looking concerned or something.
Basically Jyn would be making her case and they'd be in a corner of the room somewhere nodding and looking concerned or something.
The fact you're not wrong about Leia is sad considering she's by far the worst of the core trio in terms of treatment onscreen. It says a lot about how much worse most female characters are treated that her and Ripley are top two.
Everyone can have a bad opinion
mcz117chief
Member
There is no such thing as a "bad opinion"
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Of course there is
I felt the same way after Rogue One, but I think she'll be disappointed. Rogue One is so dramatically different from all the other stars wars(OT, PT, series).Saw this for the second time today with my cousin, who has never seen a single Star Wars-related thing in her life. Before this, she only knew who Vader, Leia, and R2 were, just by general exposure elsewhere.
She absolutely loved it and was able to keep up with what was going on, even with the new terminology for her. She was really torn up over Chirrut's and K2's deaths.
Now she wants to watch everything else. Lucasfilm, it seems you've gotten-
mcz117chief
Member
explain it to me, please
Because saying you have a "bad opinion" sounds like saying people they are wrong because they don't like something. Bad opinion or bad taste does not exist.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Explain what, the concept of having a bad opinion?
It's built into the idea of opinion itself, man. It's self-evident. I don't really know how to explain it beyond the fact that "bad" is, itself, an opinion. You're trying to argue that an opinion's value is inherently meaningful by dint of the fact it exists at all
That's incorrect. An opinion can be bad. Lots of opinions are, for lots of reasons. Lack of experience, lack of information, lack of empathy, lack of imagination, lack of common sense, lack of consideration, lack of critical thinking...
Simply having an opinion doesn't automatically make your opinion worthwhile. It doesn't assume weight just because you have the opinion. It only really carries weight if you've arrived at it and presented it with some semblance of thought and consideration.
And even then, someone could still think it's shit.
That's how opinion works.
Bad taste exists. Bad opinions exist. They're fuckin' everywhere.
If your view on the matter were to be adhered to, you literally couldn't respond to or disagree with this post, even if you felt like you should, because you'd then be handcuffed to the notion that my opinion on opinions was a bad one, which you just tried to argue is impossible.
KeyBladerXIII
Member
Haha, yeah, I made it very clear that the OT was in the 70s and 80s and don't have the same tone.
Yes they do, they very much do
I'll never rip into anyone for having a bad opinion or bad taste, unless they try and tell me that something is of higher quality than something else when that is just false.
As much as I think TFA is a vastly superior film, I get why some people enjoy R1 more because it has a lot of different things to offer. However, it's important to recognize, at a minimum, that TFA is both critically acclaimed and positively reviewed by fans (even more than R1). Hating/disliking it puts you into a minority. But of course.. that doesn't make your opinion of it any less valid. Interstellar is positively received. I fucking hate that film. But I do recognize that the vast majority of people don't support that view.
Not a good start.
Your view that someone's opinion is bad is completely subjective. There's no defined "bad opinions" or "good opinions".
Bobby Roberts
Banned
For example!
mcz117chief
Member
Ok, I see what you mean. Still, if somebody tells me they like some movie which I don't like I would never tell them "your opinion is bad".
The thing you are proposing is more of a "mind set" than an opinion. If somebody says "I don't like X people" then that is not an opinion. If somebody says "I think this politician should do X" that's not really an opinion either, at least I wouldn't call it that.
But if somebody says "I like vanilla ice cream more than chocolate ice cream" and the other says the exact opposite then neither is wrong or right. So if somebody says that Rogue One is their favourite movie or that Jyn Orso is their favourite female Star Wars character then they are not wrong just as much isn't the person wrong who says he like Ahsoka and Episode III.
I understand this now, thanks to you for the most part
Dude I can't even figure out what you're trying to say anymore.
EDIT: Just read your other post, got it now. Glad you gave a proper response.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Of course I did
If someone says "I don't like X" that is an opinion. That's the most basic form an opinion can take. Someone's mindset is often made up of an accumulation of opinions. Those opinions can be bad. It doesn't make them "wrong," because nobody's debating the objectivity of the opinion (for obvious reasons). They're debating whether or not the opinion itself carries any weight. A weightless opinion is still an opinion.
Again: Just because you have an opinion doesn't automatically mean that opinion is a worthwhile one.
By disagreeing with someone's opinion you are, on some very basic level, suggesting it's not as good as the one you hold. Otherwise you'd be sharing it.
If someone says "I don't like X" that is an opinion. That's the most basic form an opinion can take. Someone's mindset is often made up of an accumulation of opinions. Those opinions can be bad. It doesn't make them "wrong," because nobody's debating the objectivity of the opinion (for obvious reasons). They're debating whether or not the opinion itself carries any weight. A weightless opinion is still an opinion.
Again: Just because you have an opinion doesn't automatically mean that opinion is a worthwhile one.
By disagreeing with someone's opinion you are, on some very basic level, suggesting it's not as good as the one you hold. Otherwise you'd be sharing it.
Not initially.
Anyway. Glad we got how opinions work out of the way. I bet that's new territory for this thread.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I didn't like this. So far Disney Star Wars is 0/2 for me. I suppose I liked about 60% of TFA and 10% of Rogue One so it's not all bad, but as a whole, not for me.
The tone of Rogue One was great (I thought I was in for a real treat after that opening Krennic scene). The skeleton of the plot was great. It's all in the execution for me. The main characters were all emotionless duds...
... except Donnie Yuen. You could give his character a standalone movie. I liked Krennic too.
The tone of Rogue One was great (I thought I was in for a real treat after that opening Krennic scene). The skeleton of the plot was great. It's all in the execution for me. The main characters were all emotionless duds...
... except Donnie Yuen. You could give his character a standalone movie. I liked Krennic too.
What did you think of the Vader stuff?
mcz117chief
Member
I don't consider things like racism, bigotry, etc. as "opinions". Racism is inherently bad and thus I would never call it an opinion. An opinion is something you can hold without hurting or discriminating others. Like I said in my previous post, people's mind sets can be wrong but not opinions. If your opinion turns into hate or violence it isn't an opinion anymore.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
He didn't feel like the real character to me. It felt like Darth Vader's action figure showed up for a fan service cameo on a dark side action play set. I didn't "buy it".
I liked his bacta tank, I suppose. But "he slaughtered people in a hallway- so badass" is not the kind of cheap fan service that I want to see. I'd rather see him interact with other characters and intelligently eviscerate them. I want clever Vader. "Badass" is a shallow note to hit.
It might have helped if he interacted with more characters and were organically woven into the plot. Actually they seemed to be making that effort with Tarkin. But the issue with that was the unconvincing CGI which ripped me out of the film.
Also if I might add it here: the robot was a Marvel character and had the same toothless "witty" humour as those films. He's very 2010s Disney. It leaps out at me because it hits a tone that wasn't in Star Wars before, and I find it cloying in Marvel stuff.
What was never ever ever shown in a Star Wars Movie? Go head take a guess. Aw guess I'll tell you.
Vader being a feared man of amazing. That wasn't cheap fan service, it was something we had never been able to see before. Ever. We finally got that.
Megalosaro
Banned
This movie was basically an 80s mecha seris in star wars clothing and die that I loved it
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Of this thread's 221 pages (at 50ppg), posts centered on the terms "Fanservice" or "Fan Service" constitute six pages all by themselves.
Accurate uses of the term constitute about half a page.
Most people criticizing the usage of "fan service" tend to clarify within their posts that their complaint isn't really the presence of "fan service" at all, but that their specific aspect of fandom wasn't the one being serviced to their satisfaction.
Accurate uses of the term constitute about half a page.
Most people criticizing the usage of "fan service" tend to clarify within their posts that their complaint isn't really the presence of "fan service" at all, but that their specific aspect of fandom wasn't the one being serviced to their satisfaction.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The time and place to lean on something like that is when you beat the game with Vader in Soul Calibur IV.
I'm not saying a slaughter scene shouldn't be in the movie. But if that's the mere reason we're excited he was in the film, well....
I will never understand how people with any world experience whatsoever can think that bad opinions don't exist. Especially those on a discussion board, where they see opinions debated all the time and there are clearly people who put evidence and thought into their arguments while other people use fallacies to argue their side. I mean, what is a fallacy other than bad thinking?
I'd go a step further and say wrong opinions exist. Opinions that are based in some kind of misunderstanding of objective reality. I mean, suppose someone said they don't like Star Wars because they spend too much time on Earth. Not that they thought the planets they saw were earthlike and mistook them for it, they just literally thought that any star wars movie took a substantial amount of time on earth and that was bad. How is such a factually inaccurate statement not wrong?
I've seen stuff like this from other franchises. I've seen people who fell asleep and missed half a movie, or somehow forgot critical plot details, then went online and complained about how the film was missing those exact things they forgot. I've seen people mischaracterize fictional characters that it goes beyond caricature and enters the realm of alternate reality. I've seen people people argue, with full earnestness, things that literally could not have happened.
I can't explain why it happens, other than faulty memories and a refusal to admit fault. But I can't think of how else you'd describe those kinds of opinions other than wrong.
I'd go a step further and say wrong opinions exist. Opinions that are based in some kind of misunderstanding of objective reality. I mean, suppose someone said they don't like Star Wars because they spend too much time on Earth. Not that they thought the planets they saw were earthlike and mistook them for it, they just literally thought that any star wars movie took a substantial amount of time on earth and that was bad. How is such a factually inaccurate statement not wrong?
I've seen stuff like this from other franchises. I've seen people who fell asleep and missed half a movie, or somehow forgot critical plot details, then went online and complained about how the film was missing those exact things they forgot. I've seen people mischaracterize fictional characters that it goes beyond caricature and enters the realm of alternate reality. I've seen people people argue, with full earnestness, things that literally could not have happened.
I can't explain why it happens, other than faulty memories and a refusal to admit fault. But I can't think of how else you'd describe those kinds of opinions other than wrong.
Who is we? I liked his couple of scenes period. I liked his scene with Krennic. What? Would you rather Vader not show up and question why he ain't there when logically it makes so much sense seeing as the movie takes place a day before Star Wars?
NinjaBoiX
Member
Movie was pretty decent but not amazing.
Some proper eye rolling scenes though, for instance:
When
lame.
A few other daft moments I can't remember but yeah, not bad but I wasn't blown away. So to speak.
Some proper eye rolling scenes though, for instance:
When
Jinn's father dies (can't remember his name) and the ship's thrusters don't move his incapacitated body at all despite sending her flying (despite being mere inches away at the time) so she could conveniently say her goodbyes,
A few other daft moments I can't remember but yeah, not bad but I wasn't blown away. So to speak.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
No he should be there. I just found his scenes and the way they included him nothing to write home about. It felt like a very generic use of him rather than putting him into a new situation and seeing how he'd interact with the story.
If the overall movie was better, I might not be so cranky about his minimal inclusion. By the time Vader shows up, I had lost faith in the film.
mcz117chief
Member
if somebody lies then it's not an opinion, if somebody forgets then it's not an opinion, if somebody trolls then that is also not an opinion. For example, if somebody says "I think every ice cream sucks except space ice cream", and if we pretend that there is no space ice cream, then the person who said such a thing doesn't hold an opinion, he is just trying to act superior, agitate people or something else. This person has a hidden agenda that goes beyond just stating an opinion and thus the opinion itself is irrelevant and therefore basically doesn't exist.
I can imagine the discussion going something like this:
"Did you like the movie X"
"No, it spent too much time on Earth."
"But it didn't take place on Earth, it was all different planets. There was no Earth in the movie."
"Ah, well, in that case, I think they spent too much time on planets."
"Fair enough."
As you can see the final opinion is not wrong, only the first part wasn't an opinion, it was ignorance.
An opinion based on based on misinformation or lack of information doesn't stop being an opinion. To argue against that is kind of ridiculous.
By that logic, a prediction of future events couldn't possibly be considered an opinion, to name an obvious example. Or you couldn't speculate on author's intentions because you could be missing something obvious even if you tried to pay attention to the story.
I mean, the vast majority of opinions are based on some kind of incomplete information. Because when information is absolutely complete, we tend to refer to them as facts.
Edit: you're also arguing as if people have hidden agenda's when they make these arguments. No, people literally make earnest arguments based on an extreme misread of the situation. The person arguing that the star wars crew spend too much time on earth, for whatever reason, sincerely believes that's what happens.
mcz117chief
Member
Hmm, I see what you mean. I think I understand now.
Is the second part of your part directed at RLM?
This is in regards to the RedLetterMedia critique, right?
If it is, I completely agree. I'm honestly baffled that people even take that critique seriously.
I almost want to dismiss it completely as a contrivance.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's absolutely a contrivance, yeah. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a notch on the measuring stick, but it should definitely be located somewhere around the lower third.
I feel like it's barely even a valid critique, let alone a true one, though.
Since when is abstracting art from its much needed context competent criticism?
Should Rogue One be a cinematic math equation?
I just don't think I understand the criticism.
Also, you can definitely have a wrong opinion. An opinion's an argument like any other, so it can be held to logical scrutiny. If its premises are weak or false, or don't follow logical consequence; it's an unsound argument/opinion. A.K.A. a "Bad/Wrong" opinion.
Since when is abstracting art from its much needed context competent criticism?
Should Rogue One be a cinematic math equation?
I just don't think I understand the criticism.
Also, you can definitely have a wrong opinion. An opinion's an argument like any other, so it can be held to logical scrutiny. If its premises are weak or false, or don't follow logical consequence; it's an unsound argument/opinion. A.K.A. a "Bad/Wrong" opinion.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
So, I remember leaving the theater and saying "You know what I thought was cool? That when Vader finally went on his rampage, Giacchino didn't just do this big nasty version of the Imperial March, but instead played something way more like a horror movie."
Turns out, he did both.
https://twitter.com/bobbyrobertspdx/status/820822717284773888
Turns out, he did both.
https://twitter.com/bobbyrobertspdx/status/820822717284773888
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