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Rogue One is a better Star Wars film than The Force Awakens

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SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
TFA is a better full package and has a cast of characters that's easier to get attached to and keep track of, but Rogue One nails its atmosphere/aesthetic and has one of the best final acts in the entire Star Wars franchise.

I think they even out.
 
I really like both movies. I think they are worthy titles to be in the Star Wars movie saga.

But you know what's the best thing about all of this???

It's that we are actually getting new Star Wars movies after such a long time! That is something that I honestly thought would never happen! I'm still happy about that!
 
Sure, but you can't use "what if" and your own fan fiction to criticize a film because leaving out extra potential details doesn't really address what is there in the film, especially for tertiary characters like Bodhi. Would it have been a nice detail? Sure. Would it possibly get cut for time even if they filmed a scene like that? Definitely.

It's not about details, it's about the potential for conflict within the group. The third act is praised for its tension because it throws up so many obstacles to the heroes winning. I would have liked to see the same thing except within the group. Jyn and Cassian obviously butt heads for most of the movie and they are the focus of most of the scenes. But the others do not get that kind of interaction or conflict. The only one is probably the disagreement between Baze and Chirrut, but their disagreement is not an obstacle. All of the group conflict is between Jyn and Cassian.

There's no mingling between them. Jyn is mostly with Cassian. Chirrut is mostly with Baze. Bodhi is by himself. That's how they come together and how they leave, too, oddly. In the third act, Jyn and Cassian are together and die together. Baze is still with Chirrut. Bodhi dies alone. The dynamics do not shift at all and as a result, they don't feel like a team.
 

Cuburt

Member
Yeah I didn't even want Rogue One and it ended up being in my top 3.

Vader's scene at the end although awesome had little to do with it.

I'm basically the same. I was intrigued by the idea of a side story film but thought the actual premise seemed insignificant (I didn't care about how the Rebels got the plans when I read the opening scroll, personally).

I remember hearing rumors of productions troubles and I wasn't even "worried" or angry. I thought it sounded about right because I thought Gareth Edwards was a weak choice in the first place after Godzilla and I thought the reports of the film being "too dark and serious" didn't turn me off or get me excited, but made me think his take would go too far and misunderstand the source material too much. I would be down for an actual Star Wars film that was about the war part a little more, but there is certainly a wrong way to handle it.

I not only did a 180 on the film's execution, but the "dark and serious" parts of it aren't even why I like it. It's more about the themes it explores. In fact, The Force Awaken has more scary, dark, and violent scenes than anything in R1 outside of the Vader scene. It's just that the themes and tone of R1 strike more of grim and serious, especial since sometimes the good guys are even occasionally not so good and compared to the stark contrast between good and evil in TFA, it introduces a reality that can be uncomfortable, especially when the morally gray area that typically exists isn't decisions that may be sketchy, but having a Jedi not get too angry or else he made turn evil.

Characterizing Rogue One as an edgelord fanservice wankfest is so out of touch, I just find that characterization bizarre.
 
Oh man. Rogue One is only better than the prequels because the cinematography and art direction are well done. Other than that, the plot is just as nonsensical and the characters just as boring and shallow. I kinda hate it.
 

kubev

Member
I didn't care for The Force Awakens, as I felt that it was overly derivative, so I went into Rogue One with really low expectations. I was blown away. While I have absolutely no desire to re-watch The Force Awakens (although I'll probably do so before going to watch The Last Jedi), I picked up Rogue One after its release on Amazon Video and still really enjoyed it. I almost feel like it ruined the original trilogy for me, though.

It was cool to see A New Hope's opening text crawl reference what I'd just watched, but I was completely unable to enjoy A New Hope...or the following two movies. I'm actually kind of bummed about it, but Rogue One at least gives me hope that The Last Jedi will take more risks than The Force Awakens did. I find it really odd that Rogue One managed to feel so fresh, despite being so closely tied to the original trilogy, while The Force Awakens could've (and should've) ditched the familiarity of the series in favor of newer, more interesting locales and characters.

The worst part about The Force Awakens is that it feels that it was made for theaters, with long, intentional pauses on recognizable characters (that the movie still has to re-introduce for new people, anyway) and things solely to give people time to scream their heads off. Rogue One did its own thing, even throwing the traditional structure of the series out the window in order to mix things up.

Anyway, I'd rank the movies as follows:

Rogue One > VI > V > IV > III > VII > I > II
 

Cuburt

Member
It's not about details, it's about the potential for conflict within the group. The third act is praised for its tension because it throws up so many obstacles to the heroes winning. I would have liked to see the same thing except within the group. Jyn and Cassian obviously butt heads for most of the movie and they are the focus of most of the scenes. But the others do not get that kind of interaction or conflict. The only one is probably the disagreement between Baze and Chirrut, but their disagreement is not an obstacle. All of the group conflict is between Jyn and Cassian.

There's no mingling between them. Jyn is mostly with Cassian. Chirrut is mostly with Baze. Bodhi is by himself. That's how they come together and how they leave, too, oddly. In the third act, Jyn and Cassian are together and die together. Baze is still with Chirrut. Bodhi dies alone. The dynamics do not shift at all and as a result, they don't feel like a team.

Fair enough. Some of that may have had to do with reshoots in that we know events in the end of the film were changed from how they were presented in the trailer.

I do think more conflict in the group would have improved the group dynamic, but you still are ignoring the conflict that did exist. Jyn's conflict with K2SO is there from the moment they meet, and even resolved when they finally part ways in a great, subtle exchange. There is conflict between Bodhi and Cassian/Baze just due to him being an imperial pilot, but it's mainly resolved before he really even regains his sanity due to him already going through that same conflict with Saw and his group, there isn't much more conflict for his character with the group outside of that. Chirrut/Baze have "conflict" with Cassian due to his methods, but they also don't have much stake in all the on-going stuff besides their own opinions as outside observers. They are also more like monks, so their own agenda isn't ego-driven like many group conflicts of those sort are, they simply are working with the rebels to fight evil.

.

The worst part about The Force Awakens is that it feels that it was made for theaters, with long, intentional pauses on recognizable characters (that the movie still has to re-introduce for new people, anyway) and things solely to give people time to scream their heads off. Rogue One did its own thing, even throwing the traditional structure of the series out the window in order to mix things up.
I've always thought even as a fan of Star Wars happy to see these old characters, that editing choice was a poor decision that will age even worse over time. It's like a guest star appearing on a sitcom and everyone has to stand around and wait awkwardly for the applause to die down before saying their next line.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
Oh man. Rogue One is only better than the prequels because the cinematography and art direction are well done. Other than that, the plot is just as nonsensical and the characters just as boring and shallow. I kinda hate it.

Earlier in the thread someone said the plot didn't make sense and now it's also nonsensical. Can you give me some details? I honestly don't know what about the plot doesn't make sense, it seems like a pretty straight forward plot without any confusing plot twists or jumps in logic.
 

jstevenson

Sailor Stevenson
I think both are great and in their own ways.

I can't imagine the "slow" / "boring" comments on TFA. TFA is a snappy movie. I literally watched it three times on a row on a cruise ship a couple weeks ago and it never got old.

TFA introduced 3 new beloved characters and a new beloved droid. I think JJ nailed that aspect more than anything else. I can understand some qualms with the essential "reset" of the universe to get the good guys to be Rebels, and the bad guys to be the Empire again. I don't think it's the ANH retread people make it out to be, but I definitely understand the themes are there, and I can understand old fans feeling like everything their generation of characters fought for is kinda lost.

(aside: Luke questioning light side / dark side / Jedi is a path I hope he comes away from...)

Rogue One has a great group of characters too, it's a little messier, though I think for an ensemble film they have plenty of great mini arcs. K2, Cassian, the pilot, all get strong moments... Baze has a nice one, Jyn is a little muddled in her journey but I think it overall works.


Interestingly, rewatching them a lot of the quirks of the movies you can kind of notice come from the production of the films. Like, underutilization of Poe (Poe died in the original script). Rogue One has a lot more rough edges in this regard to me from Forest Whitaker to some of the battle shots and sequencing there that's kinda pieced together from the re-shoots and original shoots (I still don't understand why the data vault has this big vaulted door in front of it, but Krennic and the Death Troopers just waltz in through an unlocked regular door in the room right into the data chamber... what?)


I dunno, neither of them are ANH or ESB, but they are certainly less cringy than Attack of the Clones. I can see arguments for how to rank them anywhere between that high-end, and that low end. It'll come down to personal preference for a lot of people.

For me? ESB > ANH > ROTJ > TFA > R1 > ROTS > TPM > AOTC

But those middle four are pretty fluid.


(if I have one complaint about both TFA / R1, it's that the universe is feeling 'smaller' --- hyperspace rules seem to be completely loose now [jumping to Hyperspace into atmosphere, out of atmosphere, out of a docking bay, communicating in Hyperspace while flying in a circle around Starkiller Base?], Hyperspace jump speeds greatly increased [The Rebels, the Death Star, and the Devastator all arriving at Scarif], Han/ Chewie detecting the Falcon from a huge distance, seeing the Republic worlds destroyed from Maz's castle, the weird physics of a hammerhead corvette pushing a Star Destroyer through the hull of another Star Destroyer?) --- picky ass shit but it takes me out of the movies a bit. I guess I'm too used to the rules of the EU, but god dammit, Hyperspace is turning into a get out of jail free card)
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
When did Rey ever express her desire to be a Jedi? Is it because she gives Luke his light saber at the end?

I've seen the movie more times than I can count, but I can't recall a single moment where Rey declared "Oh boy, I can't wait to leave this dusty rock so that I can become a Jedi!"

Rey isn't Luke. She doesn't have the same desires as Luke, despite living on a similar desert planet. From what the movie shows and tells us, Rey would have been 100% content to stay on Jakku, awaiting the return of her family. She showed an aptitude for spelunking and mechanics, but overall, she wanted to stay put. BB-8 dragged her into his mission, and she reluctantly agreed to help him at least find Poe, who BB assumed was alive and on the planet. Then she comes across Finn, and believing that he's a Resistance member, agreed to get him and BB-8 to the resistance base.

She didn't want to join the Empire or Rebellion like Luke, and she certainly didn't want to become a Jedi. She thought they were fun, romantic stories she clearly liked to hear about (she lights up when Finn mentions Luke Skywalker, and they meet Han Solo). She didn't even realize she was Force sensitive until halfway through the movie, and she runs away from the revelation. She wants no part in it. It's not until she begins to tap into the Force that she begins to accept her abilities. That still doesn't mean she wants to walk the path of the Jedi, but she probably sees Luke as exactly what he is; the last known and living Jedi, who may be able to instruct her on how to use her abilities, not train her to be a Jedi.

I mean, why wouldn't you seek the guidance of the one other living person you know who has the same powers as you, that isn't a sociopath that murdered the nice old dude who thought you would make a nice addition to his crew? I'd seek out Luke too. I find Rey interesting exactly because her story trajectory doesn't appear to be the same as Luke's, although folks love to parrot the "OT retread, lolz!" every chance they can.

Since Poe was originally supposed to be killed off at the beginning, I think he's the least developed of the four leads, but I imagine they'll be fleshing his character out in the sequels now that he's a big hit. Finn is also a compelling character, because we haven't gotten to see the ramifications of his defection have barely been tapped. TFA showed Finn waking up from his indoctrination, and reacting to the bigger picture of locating Luke and destroying Starkiller base, but even then, his motivation was to rescue Rey, who was the second most kind person he had ever known.

I can relate to making fast friends with people. I've met folks and within an hour of talking to them, felt like I've known them for years. Poe and Rey treated Finn with no judgment, so I can get how he'd feel an affinity for them, even if he couldn't understand it. The fallout from his defection I think is going to make up a lot of his story in The Last Jedi and beyond.

Kylo Ren is also a super compelling character, and a really different antagonist than Darth Vader, or any previous series antagonists. I thought he was well developed, and executed, and not a Darth Vader 2.0 (although I'm sure he'd have loved to have been held in that regard). In another thread I posted about what I think of his arc and story trajectory, so I won't repeat myself here, but I will say I don't see redemption as the end game for him. He's not Vader. That was his whole arc in TFA. By the end of the trilogy, I think that's going to be hammered home big time. I really dig his character.

I just don't think that Rogue One had as strong of a handle on its characters as TFA did.
 

nomis

Member
Oh man. Rogue One is only better than the prequels because the cinematography and art direction are well done. Other than that, the plot is just as nonsensical and the characters just as boring and shallow. I kinda hate it.

I enjoyed my time in the theatre with RO but you're not wrong mate
 
When did Rey ever express her desire to be a Jedi? Is it because she gives Luke his light saber at the end?

I've seen the movie more times than I can count, but I can't recall a single moment where Rey declared "Oh boy, I can't wait to leave this dusty rock so that I can become a Jedi!"

Did you miss the part where Rey uses the Force to pull the lightsaber toward her, then proceeds to kick Kylo Ren's ass? I'd say that had something to do with it.

giphy.gif


Visual storytelling. That fight, the saber catch, that moment when they're locked and Kylo mentions the Force was the "awakening" for her, hence the title.
 

Syriel

Member
TFA = A "safe" "soft" reboot to introduce new fans to the franchise.

RO = The prequel that all of the OT fans wanted since the late 80's.
 

Davide

Member
Oh man. Rogue One is only better than the prequels because the cinematography and art direction are well done. Other than that, the plot is just as nonsensical and the characters just as boring and shallow. I kinda hate it.

How is the plot nonsensical? Let alone when compared to the prequels?

RO = The prequel that all of the OT fans wanted since the late 80's.
True, although I'm 20. This pretty much takes the place of the prequel trilogy for me.
 

nomis

Member
TFA = A "safe" "soft" reboot to introduce new fans to the franchise.

RO = The prequel that all of the OT fans wanted since the late 80's.

I'm Jake Lloyd's age so I guess that makes me a prequel kiddie, and Rogue One felt like it was designed in a lab to appeal to my sensibilities. I think that's why my memory of it has diminished, it felt overly pandering without actually focusing on good storytelling.
 

nomis

Member
Don't see how the actual story in the prequels is bad either.

I think you're confusing "plot" with "story". The basic plot of Palpatines rise to power isn't inherently shit, but the character machinations and motivations and the haphazard tone of Ep3 sure make them poor storytelling.
 
Apparently when some people get cornered into a wall, they start bad mouthing the Prequels. Even comparing them and showing how "bad" the Prequels were.

They aren't as bad as many of you believe to be. But that's just my opinion.
 

LionPride

Banned
I said something similar about J. Cole in the Kendrick Lamar thread and you dismissed it. Lol.

I think Rogue One might be the better film, but I prefer Force Awakens. I knew exactly what was gonna happen in Rogue One the moment they announced it. Still loved it, but that effected my enjoyment a bit. Force Awakens wasn't wholly unpredictable or anything, but it did enough while setting up the future of the Star Wars universe. If I had to recommend one as required viewing for a new fan going forward, TFA would be it.

Just my .02
There are certain artists I like and don't like. I legitimately think Jermaine is trash, no inbetween. I think Kendrick has meh to okay songs, lol. There are artists that are just decent, but what's the point in listening to decent music when there's so much great music out there?

With video games, music, tv, movies, people fall into this mindset of "Well I don't like it so objectively it's shit and if you like it you're fucking dumb" or "I like it and if you don't then you're fucking dumb." and it's weird. I hate the X-Men movies, but most of them aren't bad movies. I would never call Suicide Squad the worst movie I've ever seen, but it's a pretty bad movie that just didn't understand the property at all. Rogue One and TFA are good Star Wars movies to me with TFA being the best movie between the two and possibly the entire series.
 

nomis

Member
That's a real fuckin' talented fanboy.



Are you seriously insisting that poor dialogue means the actual story events are poor? Uh...

"Story events" are called plot beats, and yes I'm saying they have next to no impact on a story being any good whatsoever imo
 

jstevenson

Sailor Stevenson
Apparently when some people get cornered into a wall, they start bad mouthing the Prequels. Even comparing them and showing how "bad" the Prequels were.

They aren't as bad as many of you believe to be. But that's just my opinion.

I'd agree with that, though more towards TPM and ROTS

I even think Phantom Menace has aged pretty well if you watch it today.
 

nomis

Member
I thought we were talking about how bad dialogue = bad story.

To a large extent dialogue as wooden and unnatural as the SW prequels takes me out of the experience because the characters onscreen hardly resemble real people. I wouldn't call that a good story, no.

Please tell me all about the Ring Theory
 
To a large extent dialogue as wooden and unnatural as the SW prequels takes me out of the experience because the characters onscreen hardly resemble real people. I wouldn't call that a good story, no.

That's fine. I was just disagreeing with "dialogue = story." Can dialogue impact your enjoyment of a story? Yeah, why not.

Please tell me all about the Ring Theory

I don't know what that is and I have a feeling that I'm much better off for it.
 
I'd agree with that, though more towards TPM and ROTS

I even think Phantom Menace has aged pretty well if you watch it today.
Yep I totally agree! I still love watching those two!

Attack of the Clones though? I have to mentally prepare myself for that one honestly. No hyperbole there.
 

matt360

Member
TFA is a better full package and has a cast of characters that's easier to get attached to and keep track of, but Rogue One nails its atmosphere/aesthetic and has one of the best final acts in the entire Star Wars franchise.

I think they even out.

I like this explanation very much.

Personally, TFA is probably my favorite movie of the past decade, and I am a huge, life-long Star Wars fan. I'm not saying it's the "best" movie, just that it's my personal favorite. I cared more about Rey after her opening sequence on Jakku than I did for Jyn Erso throughout the entirety of Rogue One. Same goes for all of the new characters. I think Larry Kasdan was probably the key in that regard. And of course the actors themselves. Seeing them have such a blast on screen, with their enthusiasm and slight overacting and chemistry with each other, it just sat really, really well with me. That is what Star Wars is for me. The rehashed story didn't bother me in the least because I was having such a good time with the new characters. I can think of very, very few things that I didn't like about the movie.

With Rogue One, the battle of Scarif is maybe the best thing I've seen in all of Star Wars. But the rest of the movie kind of felt like a string of Clone Wars episodes put to the silver screen.

So while I loved both movies, I definitely disagree that Rogue One is better.
 

GamerJM

Banned
I'm an Episode 7 guy. Its characters and dialogue delivers, it hits all the right nostalgia spots, and it carries the whimsical feeling of the franchise well.

Rogue One is totally solid as a spin-off but the characters don't really do anything for me and I couldn't get emotionally invested in it.
 
Don't see how the actual story in the prequels is bad either.
I think the general storyline is decent. I say general because that allows you to ignore a lot of the ugly and messy details that ultimately made them bad films in the eyes of many (including me).

If Lucas hadn't written or directed the prequels but rather gave the outline for what they should be to a competent writer and director, and had someone to challenge his decisions instead of being a yes man, you'd have something better than what we got. The Clone Wars series is a good example of this (for the most part).
 

Surfinn

Member
I think the general storyline is decent. I say general because that allows you to ignore a lot of the ugly and messy details that ultimately made them bad films in the eyes of many (including me).

If Lucas hadn't written or directed the prequels but rather gave the outline for what they should be to a competent writer and director, and had someone to challenge his decisions instead of being a yes man, you'd have something better than what we got. The Clone Wars series is a good example of this (for the most part).
There's also the small detail of Anakin's transformation into Vader that got mucked up
 

Evilkazzzz

Neo Member
To be honest, Rogue One is actually my favorite overall Star Wars film.

I actually dont like Star Wars all that much but I find the lore/conflicts fascinating enough. Truth be told I had never watched the first 3 star wars films until 2015. My only experience up to that point had been the prequels that my parents had bought on DVD and the Clone Wars show (Great show).

So before the Force Awakens I had resolved to watch EVERY star wars film the week before, just to be informed. I found out then that I still didn't like the franchise all that much. I'm more of a fan of the Rebels vs Empire, Sith vs Republic stuff than the vague Jedi religious stuff. I wasn't impressed by A new Hope, I think Empire Strikes Back is well made but otherwise not my cup of tea (also Boba fett for all the hype does literally nothing), and Return of the Jedi got too lighthearted and cliche for me. Then I watched the Force Awakens and though it was merely alright. I was very disappointing that it aped so much from A new Hope. And even more annoyed that the Rebels were still using regular X-wings and Empire using regular Tie Fighters. What's the point of making a 3rd generation Star Wars if you're just going to do Gen 1 again?

Anyway I had fairly low expectations of Rogue One but came out surprised at how much I enjoyed it. I felt more for the rebels than I ever did in a previous Star Wars movie. Getting the death star plans felt appropriately hard for them. And the battle depicted at the end of Rogue One is the most believable and grounded of the film I've watched.

I know that there are some Extended Universe stuff like comics that go deeper into the actual WAR aspects of Star Wars but I'm just judging the films I've watched. I also liked the animated Clone Wars movie that depicted proper military engagements in the Republic vs Sith fight.
 
Can we at least agree that rogue one has a far superior third act compared to TFA? I felt no emotion for the characters at the end of TFA other than being pissed that Harrison finally got to kill Han and in the lamest most predictable way possible. R1s ending had me in tears it was very powerful. I love the somber music when Vader's Star destroyer appears at the end and the whole Star fighter battle. Great stuff!
 
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