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Rogue One is a better Star Wars film than The Force Awakens

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Cafeman

Member
I watched RO twice in theaters and enjoyed both viewings, and watched it last week at home. It felt it held up on multiple viewings. I like the scenes and pacing of the film. To me , the decision to introduce the characters and not force (snicker!) too much back history or drama, was a good decision. Rogue One is a great addition to SW. TFA > RO for several reasons to me, but that doesn't make RO bad in any way.

RO's two Vader scenes, and the entire final battle, are fantastic. Breakout character in RO - K2SO.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
The prequels are better Star Wars films than TFA
DRSovrk.gif
 

a916

Member
Meh, one of my biggest gripes is that it doesn't move the story forward. It's a very predictable movie (I mean, we kinda all knew where it was going). It also had the least amount of impact of all the movies (mostly because it's a Star Wars Story and not an episodic film, granted we know this going in too but it's still true)

On those grounds no, it's not the better Star Wars film. Definitely not.

On a technical level, I think it's the better movie, for sure, a tighter story.
 
I disagree that all ensemble films should have equal importance to screen time since that rarely seems to be the case, in my experience.

In my experience, there's roughly the same amount of importance or screen time in other ensemble films. You mention Seven Samurai as being an ensemble film and it is, but it also devotes a lot of time on each individual samurai.

Rogue One has far more emphasis on being an ensemble than simply being Jyn's story, in the very least because we see how all the main members join the team, how they all end, and their journey in the interim of the time we get to spend with them. That's not to say they all have a character arc, but I'd argue it's not necessary to tell a great story and not necessary to be an ensemble film.

Rogue One places far more emphasis on Jyn's story than the ensemble. It starts off with her and her family. The emotional crux in the second act revolves around her. And again, Baze, Chirrut, Bodhi barely play off of each other. To me, they don't feel like a team. They just feel like they're along for the ride. So when they all inevitably die at the end, I don't feel a thing.

In general, I think most of the modern day nitpicks about how every character must have character arcs, a developed backstory, complex character motivations to be exactly that, nitpicking.
I agree with you there, but Baze, Chirrut, and Bodhi don't have character building moments. Their introductions establish who they are and they stay that way the entire time. There's nothing being built upon what has already been established.


Also Bodhi is a cargo pilot, not a Tie Fighter pilot. His skill in combat flight scenarios would be limited, which makes his use more realistic than Finn, for instance.
They're mostly going from point A to point B. Could've had something where Bodhi wants to fly in combat, but Cassian won't let him. Could've had some tension there and a meaningful relationship between them, but we get nothing.
 
I don't know, Rogue One had some sloppy pacing the first half with all that planet jumping.


I think they could have made the planet jumping work as a way to introduce all of the characters, but there's also a confusing time jump in there, which means they have to introduce Jyn twice in the beginning of the film.
 

Pachinko

Member
I will never understand how anyone can put R1 so high.

At best its the 3rd worst, Id argue second. I don't know what people enjoy so much about it, the first two acts are confused, boring and have mostly unlikeable characters.

People rank it highly because it's jerking off their fan desires. They want to see Vader be "a bad ass " on screen (even if it amounts to a poorly shot stupid looking scene where he kills some random rebels), people want to see space battles that look cool with the original trilogy ships , they want to see the death star blow shit up and they want a dark brooding mood /tone that reminds them heavily of the unanimous fave entry in the series - Empire Strikes Back. If you care about nothing else, Rogue One delivers in spades. It's all style with zero substance or weight. It's the very type of movie many view marvel films as - likeable but empty. (I actually love marvel movies though because the casting is phenomenal and I just love watching those characters do shit on screen, just as R1 lovers can enjoy their soulless entertainment , so can I).

I mean, the fact that most people love the robot in R1 says all it needs to - he was the most obviously punched up character, and what I mean by that is - they had someone come in to write extra dialog during reshoots to make the robot funnier because the movie was devoid of any sense of humor at all.

I really REALLY wanted to like R1 , truly I did. Just before it's release I was sad it was getting so many middling reviews , the trailers were fantastic. It looked like a better movie than Force Awakens because it wasn't saddled by 10 years of "please don't suck" thoughts. It's been 4 months since I left the theater though and ... 16 months since I sat through TFA yet I can remember everything in TFA but I recall little of R1.

Someone replied to my earlier post with "yeah well all movies are made to be enjoyable" and that's emphatically untrue. Certainly most big blockbuster type films are.. to a degree anyway. Thing is , some studios still at least allow a director to give a film an identity and I didn't see an identity in R1, it felt like there was one at some point but it was erased to add more fan service (clapping and cheering). Anyone could have directed it , anyone could have written it. It's just "a star wars story" set up to be as safe an easy a way as any to earn Disney another billion dollars. Nothing more. Even the Marvel films , although themselves victims of this (mostly Avengers 2, Iron Man 2) have some substance and identity.

A film having an identity isn't always a good thing because it tends to make it harder for a general audience to get into it and this leads to a smaller box office. Sometimes a film can have a strong identity but it's a bad one - look no further then Zack Snyders DC comics movies thus far for a great example of that. At the end of the day though, I remember both man of steel and batman v superman. They were bad movies but memorably bad.

I suppose putting it another way - Suicide Squad was trash , one of the worst films put out last year. A much worse movie then even Batman V Superman for all of it's own problems and the biggest thing that made it worse ? it's identity was scrubbed. Low and behold , it made a ton of money at the box office. On a more personal level - I ended up enjoying it more than BvS - it was shorter and punchier but BUT , if I had to watch either of those movies again I'd watch BvS because I feel like there's still something there to explore in some way. Suicide squad meanwhile , was about as meaty as a bad music video.

Rogue One is a helluva lot better than either of those obviously but it still feels like a "product" instead of a film. TFA felt like a film.
 

Kuga

Member
RO was largely a poor showing (outside of the risks it took). The characters were entirely bland and the plot was a mess. TFA was a shameless retread of ANH spit out by the Disney marketing machine but at least it did ok at what it tried.
 

Surfinn

Member
I actually liked the jumping around. Thought it did a good job with representing the vast scope of the galaxy, something TFA did not do very well. It didn't feel out of control or disconnected to me. Thought it was relatively easy to follow.
 

a916

Member
I agree, Rogue One was an infinitely better film, more entertaining in every way.

The big problem with Force Awakens is that's it just a huge rehash and barely moves the story along.

I've seen RO 5 times but FA only twice. FA didn't offer enough to justify being a movie itself.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Force Awakens moves the entire franchise forward whereas Rogue One doesn't really expand the universe by much.
 
I watched the whole OT right before 7, liked it very much. It's easy to go full comic book guy on the internet and saying " worst star wars ever rehash of a new hope mary sue characters where does the other death star comes from" but the rehashing is overstated really. Both main characters were interesting because they were introduced through their actions, unlike Luke which was basically the blandest implementation of the hero's journey trope. The rest of the movie might have messier points in regards to the script but it still worked, it was cathartic.


R1 however was an agressively mediocre action/war flick with 5 minutes of Darth Vader. It didn't even feel like a Star Wars movie, there was no sense of adventure or emotionally charged climax. It had the same narrative structure than your transformers/marvel/bad action movie, including the very long final battle involving some random technology that can save the day if the good guys get their hands on it. The characters had zero charisma and the plot was simply very uninteresting/too basic and simple, it's like the movie was made to calm down internet nerds who only like movies that are serious in tone and use the word "objectively" when they have no arguments. It was simply a holiday cashgrab, hope the other spinoffs movies aren't emotionally hollow wastes of time that aren't even any better than the other action blockbusters.
 
Being fair Rogue One is one of the better Star Wars films and captures the magic perfectly. TFA may be a decente flick but sucks as a Star Wars movie.

But if it's a decent film, and it's a Star Wars film, then it's by definition a decent Star Wars film.

The idea that there's something so special about Star Wars that it essentially occupies its own very specific genre of adventure is silly to me. That's just making shit way more complicated than it needs to be. Like there's hard & fast, incontrovertible rules to being a "good" Star Wars movie

There are, so far as I can tell, only two real rules to this shit:

1) Be a Star Wars movie
2) Be good.

That's it.

R1 however was an agressively mediocre

Who taught you kids how to bloviate like this? Who did this to you guys?

Just say "mediocre." If it's "aggressively" anything it's no longer mediocre, really, is it.
 

Surfinn

Member
TFA has a simple, easy story that accomplished a lot for its characters. I do wish we got a moment or two to get more development though.. Sit down and chat for a while.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
TFA has a simple, easy story that accomplished a lot for its characters. I do wish we got a moment or two to get more development though.. Sit down and chat for a while.
I kinda wish the whole movie was just Rey eating bread and wearing big ass helmets.
 
I'm pretty sure Baz and Chirrut are in the movie because Disney insisted on having chinese actors to try and appease China just like why they changed that character in Dr Strange and have a new Asian girl in Episode 8.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
I'm pretty sure Baz and Chirrut are in the movie because Disney insisted on having chinese actors to try and appease China just like why they changed that character in Dr Strange and have a new Asian girl in Episode 8.

Uttertrash.gif
 
I'm pretty sure Baz and Chirrut are in the movie because Disney insisted on having Asian actors to try and appease China just like why they changed that character in Dr Strange and have a new Asian girl in Episode 8.

Quick, which is more devalued as a currency:

The Russian Ruble

-or-

Uninformed cynicism on the internet
 

a916

Member
But if it's a decent film, and it's a Star Wars film, then it's by definition a decent Star Wars film.

The idea that there's something so special about Star Wars that it essentially occupies its own very specific genre of adventure is silly to me. That's just making shit way more complicated than it needs to be. Like there's hard & fast, incontrovertible rules to being a "good" Star Wars movie

There are, so far as I can tell, only two real rules to this shit:

1) Be a Star Wars movie
2) Be good.

That's it.



Who taught you kids how to bloviate like this? Who did this to you guys?

Just say "mediocre." If it's "aggressively" anything it's no longer mediocre, really, is it.

I almost feel like that's the order too. If they release a really good movie that fails to be a Star Wars movie, people will flip out moreso than if they released an okay movie that really nails Star Wars.
 
Quick, which is more devalued as a currency:

The Russian Ruble

-or-

Uninformed cynicism on the internet

Bob Iger has been talking about boosting their films performance in China for years. They even got a special version of Iron Man 3. Additionally, the Dr Strange writer confirmed that a characters race was changed as not to offend Chinese moviegoers. This isn't a conspiracy and I don't know for a fact if Chirrut and Baz were put in for that reason but the fact that they don't really do anything kind of indicates they were shoved in. Bodi, Cassian, Saw, Jyn and the droid all have a role to play but those 2 are kind of just there.

Also if you watch the Chinese Rogue One trailer they are given much larger focus then in the western trailers and they make sure to include the brief scene where Jyn rescues an chinese girl on Jeddah.
 
I thought the movie was rather nondescript and pretty sloppy. And other than weirdly trying to cover a plot loop hole, I don't see the point of the film. Like the prequels, we didn't need it.
 

Surfinn

Member
Bob Iger has been talking about boosting their films performance in China for years. They even got a special version of Iron Man 3. Additionally, the Dr Strange writer confirmed that a characters race was changed as not to offend Chinese moviegoers. This isn't a conspiracy and I don't know for a fact if Chirrut and Baz were put in for that reason but the fact that they don't really do anything kind of indicates they were shoved in. Bodi, Cassian, Saw, Jyn and the droid all have a role to play but those 2 are kind of just there.
Saw had more of a role than those two?

I think uninformed cynicism is pretty accurate here
 

LionPride

Banned
People can't just like something and think it's decent or okay anymore. Something has to be infinitely better or the greatest and something else has to be the worst thing ever. It's weird.
 

Cuburt

Member
DRSovrk.gif


Those aren't nitpicks, they are the fundamental building blocks of every movie, TV show, and fictional story ever. Even Bay's Transformers have character arcs, motivations, etc.
They are fundamental building blocks of stories, but what I'm saying is they become nitpicks if people think the same rules should have to apply to every character, no matter how significant, or insignificant, their role is. I don't need to know what some character thought about their dad's parenting on their 6th birthday because it will inform a decision later in their life. There is better ways to add context without having to add significant runtime to a film. I also don't need to have an arc build where every character changes from the beginning of the film to the end. I think that's an unrealistic expectation as the audience, I don't think it necessarily makes for better storytelling, and I believe a story can still be a good story without people learning a life lesson by the end.

In my experience, there's roughly the same amount of importance or screen time in other ensemble films. You mention Seven Samurai as being an ensemble film and it is, but it also devotes a lot of time on each individual samurai.
That's debateable beyond their first introduction. Even their interactions with each other, which you cite as a must for ensemble films are pretty minimal at best outside the most significant main characters. That also ignores the fact that Seven Samurai is over 3 hours long and Rogue One is just over 2 hours.

Rogue One places far more emphasis on Jyn's story than the ensemble. It starts off with her and her family. The emotional crux in the second act revolves around her. And again, Baze, Chirrut, Bodhi barely play off of each other. To me, they don't feel like a team. They just feel like they're along for the ride. So when they all inevitably die at the end, I don't feel a thing.
Again, like Seven Samurai, there are maybe 3 or 4 of the 7 who have more involvement with the plot, development, and significant interaction with other characters. You set this as a requirement as an ensemble and I simply don't agree with your assessment.

I agree with you there, but Baze, Chirrut, and Bodhi don't have character building moments. Their introductions establish who they are and they stay that way the entire time. There's nothing being built upon what has already been established.
Bodhi doesn't change much besides his confidence that he is doing the right thing and in who he is, especially after losing his mind. Chirrut remains as resolved as he is at the beginning, but Baze does have a change after seeing his friend's sacrifice from being jaded to having faith.

They're mostly going from point A to point B. Could've had something where Bodhi wants to fly in combat, but Cassian won't let him. Could've had some tension there and a meaningful relationship between them, but we get nothing.

Sure, but you can't use "what if" and your own fan fiction to criticize a film because leaving out extra potential details doesn't really address what is there in the film, especially for tertiary characters like Bodhi. Would it have been a nice detail? Sure. Would it possibly get cut for time even if they filmed a scene like that? Definitely.
 

Vinc

Member
The characters are so much better in TFA, and that's the most important thing in pretty much any movie. TFA is far, far superior. I enjoy Rogue One for its action and cinematography, but it's not really a great movie.
 

PixelatedBookake

Junior Member
I need to go back and watch both of these movies. I saw them both when they came out in the theaters and thoroughly enjoyed them both. I think I like The Force Awakens more tho. I had more feelings in that one compared to Rogue One. The Baton Stormtrooper confronting Finn was a minor moment and made me feel/ get more hype than anything in Rogue One barring the Darth Vader scene at the end.
 
https://youtu.be/Xw0IR6fJlV0

is this a joke video or mark Hamill really hate star wars? lol.

But TC while I think rogue one is not a good picture I also think TFA is not a very good picture. Even if Prequel was bad they still had the SW flavor. These new movies just feels like non canon fan films. To be fair as much as people hate GL for being a terrible write which he is SW is his universe. And these new directors don't understand that universe as well as he does. Heck even bioware understands SW better than Disney lol.
 

Arttemis

Member
I thought the movie was rather nondescript and pretty sloppy. And other than weirdly trying to cover a plot loop hole, I don't see the point of the film. Like the prequels, we didn't need it.

It wasn't trying to cover up anything. It was just shedding light on something that we haven't seen before. The opening credits of the original movie mention Rebel Spies stealing the plans to the Death Star in their first major victory against the Empire.

Shedding light on the events immediately before Episode 7, where an aging Luke Skywalker loses his new Jedi Order to Kylo Ren, goes missing, General Leia creates a brave resistance, and we follow their most daring pilot to Jakku, wouldn't be covering up any loop holes... it's just showing us more of what we know.
 
People can't just like something and think it's decent or okay anymore. Something has to be infinitely better or the greatest and something else has to be the worst thing ever. It's weird.

I said something similar about J. Cole in the Kendrick Lamar thread and you dismissed it. Lol.

I think Rogue One might be the better film, but I prefer Force Awakens. I knew exactly what was gonna happen in Rogue One the moment they announced it. Still loved it, but that effected my enjoyment a bit. Force Awakens wasn't wholly unpredictable or anything, but it did enough while setting up the future of the Star Wars universe. If I had to recommend one as required viewing for a new fan going forward, TFA would be it.

Just my .02
 

Cuburt

Member
It was a pretty good post. I think he's misremembering how much Finn knows about the inner workings of SK base though. I recall him not really knowing much once they get on the planet and Han scolds him for it. This is the the scene where the "We'll use the force line came in."

And Finn knows how to fire a weapon he just got shell shocked when he saw innocents die at the hands of his fellow soldiers (and his friends die in front of him). I'm petty sure the writers were well aware of the psychological contradictions with Finn and made a conscious choice to avoid it because it's Star Wars and they wanted to keep it light and give people a good time.

Yeah I may be misremembering the exact details of Finn's knowledge but I think my point still captures the broad strokes and still works as a legit criticism over his characterization.

I think he can also have his soldier training be better conveyed without having to make him a PTSD soldier. There is less disconnect for characters on The Clone Wars cartoon and that is a show that is even more aimed to a younger audience than the films. The lack of a logic throughline to his character being a soldier makes it seem more like a plot device and convenience rather than a decision that was made for actual characterization.

I'm sure there is some sort of extended universe explanation for it all, but I'd rather it be addressed in the logic of the actual film which is introducing the character than some writer making sense of it after the fact.
 

cacildo

Member
Its an ok movie. I like TFA better


People almost killed me here on neogaf back ate opening night when i said it was just ok

Nowdays i see so many people saying RO sucks its not even funny
 

Davide

Member
Or they honestly like it for reasons that have merit beyond narrow horseshit like the above.

C'mon man. Besides which, that sentence doesn't even make any fuckin' sense.

Yeah I didn't even want Rogue One and it ended up being in my top 3.

Vader's scene at the end although awesome had little to do with it.
 
Rogue One is an okay movie with really underwritten characters, a little too much fanservice, but a really cool third act (save for the last five minutes or so, which I really dislike).

Vader should have either been an obstacle to the characters we actually care about or not been in the movie. His big scene at the end is nothing but fanservice gore. Why would you bring him in once the story proper is already over?
Everyone we're supposed to care about is already dead by that point.

The only decent characters in the movie are the droid and the two Chinese characters. They brought some life to an otherwise completely dull cast.

Luckily, when it decides to go full-on war movie at the end, it does so well, and I think that makes it a passable movie overall.

TFA may have tread a lot of the ground A New Hope already had, but at least it did so consistently well, and gave us some enjoyable characters. I'd also argue that, while the plot of the film is similar to A New Hope, the character arcs and archetypes are different enough to distinguish itself.
 
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