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Rogue One is a better Star Wars film than The Force Awakens

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Jazzem

Member
The Phantom Menace: thin crust, tomato sauce, extra cheese, anchovies
Attack of the Clones: thin crust, tomato sauce, extra cheese, sand
Revenge of the Sith: thin crust, tomato sauce, extra cheese, extra crispy
Rogue One: square cut, Alfredo sauce
A New Hope: thick crust, tomato sauce, normal cheese, pepperoni
Empire Strikes Back: Chicago style cheese and pepperoni
Return of the Jedi: thick crust, cheese, pineapple
The Force Awakens: thick crust, tomato sauce, normal cheese, pepperoni

giphy.gif

Oh my god ahah, the AotC/RotS ones slayed me
 

kinggroin

Banned
What makes it better?

Crafts a spirited, emotional story that retains the spirit of the franchise without needing to rely as hard on nostalgia laden narrative.

I felt more for the Unreal Engine powered droid and his plight than Rey or Kylo.

Fwiw, I did and still do enjoy TFA's whimsy and familiarity.


Hope that answers your question
 
I disagree, both aren't great but Rogue One really has nothing good from Star Wars, nothing classic and on top of that nothing that new or original that is very stand out. Just isn't interesting with a boring cast for the most part, not everyone but most everyone
 

Jobbs

Banned
Agreed. Rogue One is great, TFA is competent but problematic, and not only because it's a retread of ANH. It dazzled us in theaters because, after the prequels, the bar was so low that all it had to do was not be a trainwreck and people would be amazed.

ESB > R1 > TFA > ROTJ > ANH > prequels
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
The last third or act is just about perfect and I wouldn't change a thing about it.

The problem is that the first two thirds fail from a character standpoint to make that final bit as meaningful as it should be. It feels like a resolution to emotional arcs that were never properly set up in the first place. Baez calling Jyn 'little sister' when I can barely think of more than a single sentence exhange between the two of them for that to resonate emotionally. Baez reciting Chirrut's prayer after he died, but again, their relationship being so underdeveloped that it doesn't mean as much as it wants you to think it does. Bohdi being the only man who knew Galen, and yet Jyn and he never really have an exchange about him beyond one short line mid-argument.

Almost every character feels like they were given a one-or-two sentence description and were never fleshed out beyond that. It felt like it was missing a good 5 minutes of just characters interacting with one another, just to allow you to get to know and care about them. Versus Finn and Poe's escape in Force Awakens, making them almost instantly endearing.


Also the cameo of the guys from the MoS Eisley bar still sits so poorly with me. I'm fine with the pilot cameos, I'm fine with Tarkin and Leia's involvement. But the cameo from those two guys just felt so fucking egregious and masturbatory.


I still ultimately liked the movie but it should have been so much better with the elements they had in place.
 

sphagnum

Banned
The Phantom Menace: thin crust, tomato sauce, extra cheese, anchovies
Attack of the Clones: thin crust, tomato sauce, extra cheese, sand
Revenge of the Sith: thin crust, tomato sauce, extra cheese, extra crispy
Rogue One: square cut, Alfredo sauce
A New Hope: thick crust, tomato sauce, normal cheese, pepperoni
Empire Strikes Back: Chicago style cheese and pepperoni
Return of the Jedi: thick crust, cheese, pineapple
The Force Awakens: thick crust, tomato sauce, normal cheese, pepperoni

giphy.gif

So what you're saying is TPM is the best.
 

Zabka

Member
Nothing! Just trying to work out your issues, which I think applies to everything, or most things that are a planned story.

I was making fun of Rogue One for blowing through two cheesy reunion/death scenes for undeveloped characters in an incredibly small time frame.
 
TFA = All the feeling of Star Wars, but no guts.

They crafted a new protagonist, female at that. This shouldn't be a big deal, but yeah.

They dared craft a new antagonist along the lines of Darth Vader and brilliantly went for the idea that Kylo Ren himself is trying to be Darth Vader but isn't. The play on the character and Vader's pop culture status was a genius parallel, and already has far more depth to him than Vader did in his introductory episode.

They had the lightsaber go to Rey instead of Luke which is what literally ANYONE else would have written.

They killed off Han Solo, a fan favorite character.

They didn't rely on 3P0 or R2, and instead created a new central droid that has already arguably become an icon.

They didn't have Luke all over the movie, which anyone else would have-- even Mark Hamill was taken by surprise by it all.

Nah, Force Awakens did not lack guts. It having baseline beats to other Star Wars films-- not just A New Hope but also Empire, Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace does not mean it's "safe," lacks new ideas, or "guts."
 
Agreed. Rogue One is great, TFA is competent but problematic, and not only because it's a retread of ANH. It dazzled us in theaters because, after the prequels, the bar was so low that all it had to do was not be a trainwreck and people would be amazed.

ESB > R1 > TFA > ROTJ > ANH > prequels

I will never understand how anyone can put R1 so high.

At best its the 3rd worst, Id argue second. I don't know what people enjoy so much about it, the first two acts are confused, boring and have mostly unlikeable characters.
 

Pizza

Member
I think they both frame the original trilogy nicely? Rogue One is the hopeless desperate suicide mission that directly causes the first movie. Gives you a look at what Annikan is like 19 years later as your boss, gives you a look at what sort of dude Tarkin is, sets up the Death Star and has it do some shit it's never done onscreen (single ignition fire was sweet) and it plays with tropes the original trilogy does.

Darth Vader walking towards you is scary as shit. Rogue One showed like ten guys get in his way, and then the rest of the movies have him get cut off right when he starts towards the crew a few times. Yes it's playing off nostalgia, but it makes the part in episode 4, for instance, where Vader turns towards the falcon in the Death Star and starts just... walking towards them quietly before a door gets shut in his way.

Watching the original trilogy got off rogue One is cool. The tone of the movie is way different, and they don't have nearly as many quippy character interactions, but Jyn and Cassius kept bumping into each other, but it meant something different each time. I like it, I can see why people don't.

I don't despise the existence of 1/2/3. I like the Anti-Cheese edits a whole lot, and I liked seeing Senator Organa and Imperial Corsuscant. I liked the way Bail set up Leia being in the right spot to smuggle the plans and getting them to Obi Wan on tatooine. I think it's a nice buffer between the two trilogies. It takes the focus away from the skywalkers to the rebellion at it's worst hour. Then it nicely passes the series to the skywalkers. They didn't NEED the vader scenes, but I liked them! He's had good comics lately and Disney has been handling him well.

TFA is a great sequel to 6, especially if Rey is han's kid. It plays with some similar ideas, but it's not a direct retread of anything imo. 1, 2, and 3 set up weird things that retroactively make random shit in 4, 5 and 6 direct references. All the Jedi have those utility belts that they force use, that luke also just has and uses perfectly with no training.

Like, there's another whole political drama between 6 and 7. It's in books and shit, but no one in real life would want the big return of Star Wars to be Leia debating why the republic needs a standing army to the senate on coruscant. So they fast forward to the point where the actors have aged to, and the much more overtly evil empire II is firing their 20x Death Star.

I hated finn for awhile, but I've rewatched everything since then. The storm troopers are dudes. They're chatting and shit the minute their bosses backs are turned, so finn acting like a dude doesn't bother me: especially because he's fucking clueless about random shit. Rey is a neat blend of good annikan, Han, and Leia, and she immediately digs Han because people who are related in Star Wars are immediate friends if they meet by chance.

I think Kylo Ren accidentally made Rey incredibly aware of the force when he tried to force probe her brain. "But that's dumb!" But Leia absolutely just resisted a probe droid at around a similar age. Rey has also heard legends about the Jedi and when the legendary smullger Han tells her "oh all of it is true" she thinks "oh shit I should try a Jedi mind trick" when she gets in some deep shit, especially since she just accidentally read some scary sith's mind and fucked him up

Han dying tragically is foreshadowed constantly in 4/5/6, so his son stabbing him and killing him the same way luke killed palpatine to go full Jedi is super fitting.

I would've liked more time with the orange yoda woman whose name I forgot, but it sounds like she'll be coming back. If that's true this movie dumps her in the universe nicely without her taking too long.

It was quick, but this movie kill coruscant. That's a huuuuuge deal, especially since the new order is an empire and the resistance isn't big. In ANH they kill the death star but have to relocate the rebellion, in TFA the resistance is pretty unharmed but the substantially more important republic capital is wrecked. Depending on how many senators were there and how important those people were on their homeworlds, the first order could have just cut the head off the galactic republic and many worlds' individual leaders.

It's similar, but the implications are entirely different. I feel like TFA set up a ton of shit that sets up an entirely different trilogy.

I don't see why you can't like both movies for different reasons?
 
The pizza comparisons so far have been stupid so here's mine:
The original trilogy is that pizzeria you went to a lot as a kid. The prequels are when that pizzeria closed down and you had to rely on Domino's but domino's was shit. The Force Awakens is that same pizzeria opened back up with the same recipes by new people who also loved it as kids. Rogue One is a second restaurant with a different atmosphere and location that's not as good as everything else except for Domino's.
 

shoelacer

Banned
I dunno man, I just thought Rogue One was such a drag. I was looking forward to a darker take on Star Wars but I didn't expect it to be so portentous and joyless. It felt like the only real levity was provided by the robot, who was also a total dick. Like cmon man these movies are about gangly space bears shooting lasers and shit, lighten up yall
 

itwasTuesday

He wasn't alone.
It's pretty dumb. But it's like 3 seconds and completely insignificant, so I'm not broken up about it


This makes me sad

Its about 10 seconds. Insignificant would be they walk by in the background. They bump shoulders to show the badassness and if the audience doesn't realize who it his, his partner jumps into frame for a close up. The whole verbal exchange is odd too, like is this supposed to cement the idea that you guys are badasses and when we learn they the death penalty in 12 systems we can say "yeah I can see that" while noding.

If they were set on showing them, I would of rather they either keep them in the background or give them something to do. It just felt really, I don't know, tacky.

Sorry, it is a quick scene but just came off as why?. And since you did it, why like that.

recently saw it so it stuck out in my head. at least they got another rogue one toy figure to sell now.
 

Jobbs

Banned
I will never understand how anyone can put R1 so high.

At best its the 3rd worst, Id argue second. I don't know what people enjoy so much about it, the first two acts are confused, boring and have mostly unlikeable characters.

I think ESB is the only truly great SW movie. Outside of it, the bar is low - So, while R1 may have slightly under written characters, it is still much more competent and less ridiculous than the rest of the OT.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
I think ESB is the only truly great SW movie. Outside of it, the bar is low - So, while R1 may have slightly under written characters, it is still much more competent and less ridiculous than the rest of the OT.
Do not ever slander ANH like this.
 

Flakster99

Member
I thought the very same when exciting the theater back on opening day, and after a repeat viewing I still feel that way.

I like that Rogue One tells a one-off sad story. You sort of get to know the characters, about as much as you really get to know the cast of 4, but they die before they all become quippy bffs who get a whole trilogy

Basically this.
 

Be as snarky as you need to, but I see much more depth in TFA with the ideas of generational violence, failure to live up to the expectations of your parents, and morality vs. duty than in the straight up hero's journey told in ANH.

Is it Citizen Kane? No. I never claimed it was. But compared to ANH, you bet your ass TFA is deeper than that movie ever was.
 
I just realized prequel-Anakin is more enjoyable than Jyn. Hrm....At least Rogue One had that Vader scene. No, not the first one that was the second worst Vader scene in a movie.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Be as snarky as you need to, but I see much more depth in TFA with the ideas of generational violence, failure to live up to the expectations of your parents, and morality vs. duty than in the straight up hero's journey told in ANH.

Is it Citizen Kane? No. I never claimed it was. But compared to ANH, you bet your ass TFA is deeper than that movie ever was.
This is like if I seriously tried to argue in GAF that Iron Man 2 has deeper themes than The Dark Knight.
 

Selddon

Banned
I feel like Rogue One was too action packed and the characters were all very uninteresting

TFA could have been great if it wasn't directed by JJ Abrams
 

Speevy

Banned
Comparing Star Wars movies always leads to one inevitable conclusion. The original movies have flaws. Just enjoy what we have now and stop worrying so much about it.
 

Gorillaz

Member
I thought that too I still laugh at Red Letter Media getting all up in their feelings when someone thinks it's better then episode 7
 

DeanBDean

Member
This is like if I seriously tried to argue in GAF that Iron Man 2 has deeper themes than The Dark Knight.

I mean, Star Wars as it was originally conceived, before it was a New Hope, wasn't trying to have "deep" themes. Lucas later claimed that he was trying to include "deep" themes of mythology on the first, but he wasn't introduced to Joseph Cambell's Hero with a Thousand Faces until he was writing the third draft. Star Wars is originally a nod to Flash Gordon by stealing the plot of Hidden Fortress. So it's a stretch to me to be flabbergasted that someone might call The Force Awakens "deeper" when the original was not really trying to be deep.
 

dejay

Banned
Rogue One, whilst still having it's faults, was a tighter, smaller story and to me it was the better for it. The characters for the most part didn't, and won't ever, outstay their welcome.

I liked how Cassian's grey-area internal conflicts defined him, but for the most part it wasn't overplayed and he didn't get super emo about it. Whilst the characters weren't super developed, most at least had some justification for their actions.

To me it had the right ratio of drama vs adventurous romp. I'm keen to see it again soon, but time will tell if it holds up for me upon second viewing.

Whilst I liked The Force Awakens, the Empire 2.0 and Death Star 3.0 and assault the Death Star 3.0 is getting tired. I gave up halfway through a second viewing.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
There is absolutely nothing "deep" about TFA that we haven't already seen in a dozen mediocre 4-quadrant blockbusters. It's as "deep" as Ant-Man or the Star Trek reboots.
 
There is absolutely nothing "deep" about TFA that we haven't already seen in a dozen mediocre 4-quadrant blockbusters. It's as "deep" as Ant-Man or the Star Trek reboots.

Like I said, it depends on your idea of depth. I think it has depth to it. You're not really changing anyone's mind. You just say "no it doesn't."

It's fine if you don't think so, but there's nothing wrong with others disagreeing. I'm sure you could explain why you have that opinion and I'm sure why others could explain theirs as well.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Like I said, it depends on your idea of depth. I think it has depth to it. You're not really changing anyone's mind. You just say "no it doesn't."

It's fine if you don't think so, but there's nothing wrong with others disagreeing. I'm sure you could explain why you have that opinion and I'm sure why others could explain theirs as well.
Well we could talk about how the movie moves so damn fast that none of themes brought up have any actual exploration into them, but are just kinda brought up and then dropped so the next setpiece can happen. Don't get me wrong, I was expecting a 'deep' SW movie based off of TFA's trailers but J.J. really didn't deliver.
 

McLovin

Member
That Darth Vader hallway scene was the only really good thing about that movie. You could tell that thing got chopped up and rearranged to hell and back.
 
Well we could talk about how the movie moves so damn fast that none of themes brought up have any actual exploration into them, but are just kinda brought up and then dropped so the next setpiece can happen. Don't get me wrong, I was expecting a 'deep' SW movie based off of TFA's trailers but J.J. really didn't deliver.

I think it's a difficult conversation because we haven't even established a foundation for any of it. We're just throwing around terms like "themes" without any identification to them. Right now it's just subjective territory. I didn't need all the "themes" to be fully explored because it's a trilogy and not one film, I watched it as an introductory episode because that's what it is.

When I've seen the full trilogy, I'll decide at that point how it came together.
 

void666

Banned
The only thing memorable about rogue one was the hallway scene. And that is what? One minute long?
Rogue one feels like a very expensive fan film.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
If Rogue One had been the first Star Wars movie then the franchise would be forgotten, having produced no sequels.
If The Force Awakens had been first then nothing would have changed really.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
I think it's a difficult conversation because we haven't even established a foundation for any of it. We're just throwing around terms like "themes" without any identification to them. Right now it's just subjective territory. I didn't need all the "themes" to be fully explored because it's a trilogy and not one film, I watched it as an introductory episode because that's what it is.

When I've seen the full trilogy, I'll decide at that point how it came together.
I think we can both agree on that.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
If Rogue One had been the first Star Wars movie then the franchise would be forgotten, having produced no sequels.
If The Force Awakens had been first then nothing would have changed really.
Dude, if Rogue One came out in 1977, people would've killed George for being a literal witch.
 
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