efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
That would be insane.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Rolling Stone: DOOM on Switch will render the same both handheld and docked, at 720p
- Thread starter Cerium
- Start date
That would be insane.
Not really. We don't know what they're charging for man hours or what the contact they negotiated. Since both games they're working on have the same issue, they could very well be charging extra for optimizing when docked. If companies don't want to pay extra for that service, then that would explain why their ports are like that. This is just speculation, though.
KillerMan91
Member
PSP should be compared to Xbox and PS2 and not to PS3/X360. It launched between the gens just like Switch. It did get decent PS2/xbox ports. Fortunately for Switch PS4 gen is going to last longer than Xbox/PS2 gen so it will get decent ports longer.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Oh you mean Panic Button. Thought you meant Nintendo.
Yeah that's a possibility and it would be unfortunate if Bethesda decided to not pay for any docked optimization.
Rellik
Member
He's not wrong on this though. Drive by or not.
TyMiles2012
Member
I'm completely fine by this! Even though the dock isn't going to be used to bump resolution, 720p is good enough. I think 720p should be the absolute minimum for anything on a television nowadays, and I'm someone who plays on a 55" 4K TV. I'll probably be playing on docked most of the time like I normally do, but it's fun to play during school in between classes.
I'm aware that it's using dynamic resolution.
Refreshment.01
Member
But if we are basing it on the impressions of DF wouldn't this speculation proven to be false? The concern with these type of speculative statements is that it becomes so repeated that it kind of becomes a "truth", to the point that the developer might use it as an excuse.
To carry on about what DF presented us. The custom PC in which Doom was runing on in the video had a 4 core CPU ("capped to 3") at the same Switch clocks with an IPC below the A57 according to DF. The CPU was hitting 80% - 90% usage. And both games slow down thought.
Further more Nintendo designs it's systems with Motion Control in mind. Where it was resource drain with a PS3 or 360 in the Wii it was practically free. im aware of the differences in technology and implementations between the input methods but just wanted to point out the "phyloshophies" behind these systems.
Why exactly is Doom so CPU intensive in this case? AI is not above 6th or 7th gen games, a 6th gen shooter to this day still has one of the best examples of AI. If this is what taxes the CPU so much, then the enemy behavior programing needs some revisions.
To conclude, Gyro motion controls, is not something as complex as say... the "Computer Vision processing" we would see with an input method using a camera. It basically outputs different voltage signals which are processed in a way not so different from an analogue stick. Hell even if im talking with no further base, it would be like saying a shooter that maxes a PS4 would be impossible to patch to get mouse support due to the processing overhead.
In the entire history of PC, handheld and 8th gen console gaming i can't recall a similar case. Specially nowadays we would have heard something in those terms by now.
Can you cite examples?
It'll certainly be taking advantage of docked mode, the system clocks to twice the GPU performance in docked mode so its going to effect resolution given its dynamic nature.
My guess is the game runs at 720p pretty much solid in docked mode while in handheld mode it fluctuates down to near half that resolution at times.
shouamabane
Member
Yeah, it runs at a dynamic resolution. Capping the game at 720p/30fps is smart IMO.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
Switch draws like 7W in portable mode and 12 in docked with the screen off. So there is clearly a change in GPU (And memory iirc) frequency.
The range of battery life in portable mode depends on how taxing the game is, independent of the frequency. A processor at 1GHZ loaded at 20% consumes a lot less than the same processor at 100% load. There is such a thing as idle cycles.
Dictator93
Member
So the baseline UI and whatnot will be 1280X720, but the game will be probably below that consistently or use a dynamic resolution anyway. Interesting. To me the game in handheld mode, based upon some things, looked to be below 540p, but it will be easier to see once we have actually good uncompressed footage.
I guess they do not have the texture memory or whatnot to have a full 1920X1080 UI or menu environment.
I guess they do not have the texture memory or whatnot to have a full 1920X1080 UI or menu environment.
Garrett Hawke
Member
This seems wrong and I dont trust it because Ubi said Rabbids was 720p on the handheld. Will wait for release + DF.
tomwhite2004
Member
But the memory bandwith and cpu clocks don't scale accordingly so create a bottleneck for the gpu. Its why botw was only 900p in docked mode when on paper the gpu seems enough for 1080p.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
Dante's Inferno.
family_guy
Member
You're in a thread that's about Doom's graphics no? That's like walking into a Digital Foundry thread and being bothered they or someone else pointed out some shortcoming in a game or hardware. The only thing I did was slightly correct you. In any case, interest in a platform doesn't have to revolve around praising its technical performance. I've owned a Vita and before that a PSP. I realize there are compromises that need to be made. I'm just not going to ignore them. If I see something I like I have no problem saying so.
Greatest Ever
Member
Ok?
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
Wasn't the DF PC CPU running at 2GHz while the Switch CPU is running at 1GHz?
If the Switch CPU was running at 2GHz (which it can't because of battery life) then a ton more PS4/XB1 ports would be in development imo.
The CPU seems to be the bottleneck for a lot of multiplatform development as I think Blu said it performs at around 70% of the Jaguar CPU in PS4 and we all know how "weak" that is according to the internet.
It doesn't do it just now but it wouldn't surprise me that in the future Nintendo releases a firmware update which lets the CPU run at 2GHz when docked which will mean "docked only" games that just aren't possible with the downclocked handheld mode specs. There are already "handheld only" games on the console so I don't see the issue if certain games don't fit the hybrid rules of the system.
Hopefully when Nintendo release the "New Switch" the CPU is much improved much like in "New 3DS".
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I don't know about that, it might be as simple as being easier / less buggy to maintain an identical UI and resolution target considering the game was never built with dynamic switching in mind. The Switch itself outputs a 720p menu whether docked or not in a similar way. UI elements are a drop in the bucket in terms of processing and memory.
Going by these results https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/doom-vulkan-cpu-performance.2480056/ it looks like Doom doesn't scale beyond 4 Threads, the higher FPS for different processors of the same architecture fits the difference in clockspeed really well. It also runs at nearly 150 FPS on an i3 2100, which means it has really low cpu requirements.
Aizu_Itsuko
Member
Diablohead
Member
no the gpu kicks up a notch when docked, but it's just a lot going on that causes slowdown.
Boards of Canada
Member
I still can't believe we're getting DOOM on a portable. Fuckin' crazy.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
That's it! I didn't realise it was a per core comparison. So it's even worse. The fact some multiplatform games are possible on Switch when the CPU is only providing 50% the performance of PS4's CPU is incredible.
Skittzo0413
Member
I'm still not sure where this sub 540p confirmed talk is coming from. I didn't notice any sort of bluriness or even dynamic resolution scaling from all of those offscreen videos. I totally expect it to have dynamic resolution scaling, but I haven't seen any sort of indication that it goes that far down past 720p.
I don't think people are under the impression that this transition is automatic. Rather, it's like having 2 PC settings that the game switches to when prompted, and that has to be programmed by the developer. Minecraft originally did the same thing as this, in that it didn't upclock when docked, but that was apparently due to a glitch and was corrected shortly after it released.
Games like BotW and most Nintendo games are obviously developed to do that. You can test this yourself by feeling the heat coming out of the vent when in handheld or in docked mode. But I don't think anyone believed this transition happens automatically for developers, it has to be developed with that transition in mind.
I don't think people are under the impression that this transition is automatic. Rather, it's like having 2 PC settings that the game switches to when prompted, and that has to be programmed by the developer. Minecraft originally did the same thing as this, in that it didn't upclock when docked, but that was apparently due to a glitch and was corrected shortly after it released.
Games like BotW and most Nintendo games are obviously developed to do that. You can test this yourself by feeling the heat coming out of the vent when in handheld or in docked mode. But I don't think anyone believed this transition happens automatically for developers, it has to be developed with that transition in mind.
lwilliams3
Member
I'm unsure that the CPU would be the reason third parties are not porting more games over compared to them not being confident that the game will sale on a Nintendo system.
In relation to the power of its GPU, RAM quality, and speed, the hardware tests that Nintendo performed may have showed that the chipset is "balanced" at the current configurations.
In that post, I was referring to an even earlier discussing that I had with Blu in another thread. I'm curious if Blu and I accurately estimated the power range of the CPU compared to the other systems.
clarknova156
Member
What were people expecting with the Switch version of DOOM? 900p docked mode? You are kidding right?
The Switch isn't anywhere near a powerhouse console. It's a hybrid of home/portable. The fact that DOOM can run at all is a miracle on this low powered hardware. Frankly I'm excited for a portable version of DOOM at 720p. That sounds amazing. Now if Nintendo wasn't dumb about its 32GB cards we would likely have improved textures which is sad. The "Switch Tax" is more the story here than the final output results.
Maybe this time Polygon can review DOOM with someone that understands how to play a video game
The Switch isn't anywhere near a powerhouse console. It's a hybrid of home/portable. The fact that DOOM can run at all is a miracle on this low powered hardware. Frankly I'm excited for a portable version of DOOM at 720p. That sounds amazing. Now if Nintendo wasn't dumb about its 32GB cards we would likely have improved textures which is sad. The "Switch Tax" is more the story here than the final output results.
Maybe this time Polygon can review DOOM with someone that understands how to play a video game
What were people expecting with the Switch version of DOOM? 900p docked mode? You are kidding right?
The Switch isn't anywhere near a powerhouse console. It's a hybrid of home/portable. The fact that DOOM can run at all is a miracle on this low powered hardware. Frankly I'm excited for a portable version of DOOM at 720p. That sounds amazing. Now if Nintendo wasn't dumb about its 32GB cards we would likely have improved textures which is sad. The "Switch Tax" is more the story here than the final output results.
Maybe this time Polygon can review DOOM with someone that understands how to play a video game
900p docked considering the framerate got cut in half wasn't that crazy of an idea imo, but yeah, I'm still glad we got this. Most of the effect are still there at least.
Careful though, more space available on the cartridge doesn't necessarily means better textures. Higher quality textures is taxing the hardware as well.
Interested to see DF's analysis on this.
The engine supports dynamic resolutions, wouldn't that make it easier to have a different cap docked and un-docked?
The engine supports dynamic resolutions, wouldn't that make it easier to have a different cap docked and un-docked?
Eh... yea but, it would be cool to know the rationale behind the decision to have the same res in both modes.
Refreshment.01
Member
Correct.
CPU at 2 ghz, GPU at 620 MHZ near Switch speeds but with 384 CUDA cores instead of the 256.
Let's keep this in track. A person claimed that the CPU is so tapped out that it can't do the trivial calculations that Gyro aiming needs. Wasn't Kinect far more demanding and that amounted aprox. 10 at max? What % the far simpler Gyro aiming would be then?
Im not sure how technically sapient you and the person making the claim are, i just fallow logic and what i' ve seen. i think i heard more complains in regards to the Wii U CPU against the 7th generation ones (which BTW were more CPU based than the 8th gen); yet Wii U ran something like Assassins Creeds quick ports which have a lot more NPCs to track and more varied behavior than Doom monsters. These NPCs had to navigate open environments which are maybe more complex than the Doom ones.
So how exactly is Doom a taxing game CPU wise? i made this question in my previous post.
In regards to Switch CPU upcloacking when docked. i' ve made the same comments in the past, but the best way to ascertain how possible it would be is to see the Tegra X1 throtling under heavy usage. A person did made the test and concluded that it were about the same clocks the Switch uses when docked. But i don't remember if he tested the same GPU clocks with higher CPU speeds.
Well this confirms my suspicions regarding Doom CPU use:
Upon concrete evidence is shown it is better to not even mention the thing about gyro support and just assume is not one of the dev priorities and leave it at that.
The more useful thing to do is politly ask for the feature to Panic or Bethesda themsleves.
I highly doubt Doom will run at 720p on portable mode since the docked version run at the same resolution at the double of GPU clock.
Or docked will run with more effects, or the portable mode will not run in 720p most of the time. The same as Snake Pass, that is theorically 720p but often run 675p when docked to drop to 475 when is in portable.
Or docked will run with more effects, or the portable mode will not run in 720p most of the time. The same as Snake Pass, that is theorically 720p but often run 675p when docked to drop to 475 when is in portable.
Skittzo0413
Member
We don't know that it will run at double the GPU clock. Minecraft on Switch ran at 720p on both at launch because they had issues transitioning to the docked mode clock speeds. It was then fixed in a patch.
It could be the same thing here, especially if this is a quicker port than we initially thought.
you really get to experience the full natural beauty of the land when you play DOOM as you hike through it.
coughlanio
Member
If you plug in the Switch in portable mode, does it run at the same clocks as docked mode? I wonder if Nintendo will ever offer performance options to let you run in "docked" mode on the go, at the cost of battery life.
Naked Snake
Member
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm not going to say this is a "bad port" because holy crap look at the Switch hardware, but this is increasingly looking like a port that doesn't appeal to me
JershJopstin
Banned
I believe we've been going off of Eurogamer leaks for clock speeds, which indicated all power profiles utilized the same CPU speed. This makes sense in all honesty, as some games initially built to target docked mode just wouldn't be able to run in handheld if the CPU downclocked.
Indeed and DigitalFoundry mentioned their handheld experience felt more like 540p, so I'd expect docked will provide a sharper experience on average, likely with fewer frame drops too.
Gotdatmoney
Member
Running at the same resolution docked and undocked is totally meh imo. You get double the gpu strength docked. Why would you not push the resolution higher?
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
The battery would last like one hour, and it'd be uncomfortably hot.
If you want a Switch that is even more powerful in handheld mode, wait for the refresh that will inevitably come out in a few years.
That video was terrible. All they had was "we saw DOOM running on Switch in portable mode at 30FPS" and then they pull a haphardly thrown PC to chug trying to run the game and slap the footage like it has anything to do with the console and then they try and draw conclussions from a YouTube stream that was compressed to hell and back. None of their conclusions have any relevance really.
They never said that. They made a guess looking at a compressed Youtube video.
And it was only for one frame!
Naked Snake
Member
Yeah, I was super excited for this, my initial hope was for 60fps, but even after 30fps I still said I'll buy it, but if it plays 540p or lower a lot of the time then I'm thinking I'll wait for a sale or get it on PC.
I mean they're learning the system as they go, so of they've got more stuff lined up, it only benefits them to keep working on squeezing every ounce of juice out of the switch.
I guess we'll just have to see, I imagine there's gotta be some benefits patched into the docked mode eventually once they figure out how to use that extra power.
Yep. When you take the Switch out of the dock after a long session and start playing right away the console will be uncomfortably hot. The fan will spin like crazy for a few seconds and the thing will cool down to normal portable temperatures very quickly, but if the console ran at docked speeds in portable mode you would feel that uncomfortable temperature all the time, not a few seconds.