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Rotating in Super Mario Sunshine Rotating in Super Mario Sunshine

Shigeru Miyamoto said:
“Their attitude is, ‘okay, I am the customer. You are supposed to entertain me.’ It’s kind of a passive attitude they’re taking, and to me it’s kind of a pathetic thing. They do not know how interesting it is if you move one step further and try to challenge yourself [with more advanced games].”

Auto-rotation and level design

The camera system in Super Mario Sunshine is so finely tuned it is even tailored to the level. This is never mentioned in threads on the camera system in that there are two types of default camera systems in place.

Super Mario 64
A) Default 1 [Normal Camera] - Camera panned keeping Mario’s position in the center of the screen (when facing forward or backward). If facing sideways the camera pushes back to increase the scope of where Mario is looking. Camera auto-rotates to redirect behind-the-back. Active on Castle exterior, certain parts of Castle interior, Jolly Roger Bay, Hazy Maze Cave, Shifting Sand Land's pyramid interior, Snow Man's Land, Dire, Dire Docks, and Big Boo's Haunt underground and mansion exterior.

Default 2 [Normal Camera] - Camera panned keeping Mario’s position in the center of the screen (when facing forward or backward). If facing sideways the camera pushes back to increase the scope of where Mario is looking. No auto-rotation. Active on Bob-omb Battlefield, Whomp's Fortress, Wet-Dry World, Tiny-Huge Island, Tick, Tock Clock, Rainbow Ride, and most importantly the Bowser levels.

Super Mario Sunshine
A) Default [Normal Camera] - Camera panned keeping Mario’s position in the center of the screen with auto-rotation to redirect behind-the-back.

Default 2 [Normal Camera] - Camera panned keeping Mario's position in the center of the screen without any auto-rotation to redirect behind-the-back. Active on Athletic Courses.

Levels that are more linear oriented do not have auto-rotation while open levels do. The newest addition to auto-rotation mechanics is...

CAMERA MOVEMENT CAUSED BY STRUCTURE
I. The game auto-rotates camera when going around an objects that would block the view of Mario producing a silhouette. It is the same camera functioning as the L Trigger (light depress). Even trees, column structures, and crates will do this. Most recognizable when fully zoomed in. Diminished effect on small structures when zoomed out. –-This is most likely due to the camera going overhead which hinders obscuring Mario. Also, visual depth has a strong influence on the wielding and disturbance of a camera; camera rotation speed is linked to the travel distance needed to rotate around the center (Mario). So, bigger shifts are felt when closer to Mario.

I don’t see the necessity of it for the trees. Was not even aware of it until I specifically studied the silhouette effect. It doesn't get in the way of doing anything from what I have played. Very subtle due to the desirability and natural-inclination to have the camera follow Mario behind-the-back.

II. One significant place is the large windmill in Bianco Hills. When you are working your way up and circling around the tower the camera turns. This should have been turned off altogether since user camera control movement is smooth unlike 64. If you keep the control stick held up while running on the top Mario will not run off the tower but run in a circle on it.

III. The camera auto-rotates on the spiral shells in Noki Bay.

IV. The game auto-rotates around corner posts and the totem pole in Hotel Delfino.

On II, there is literally nothing to do up there besides get a 1-Up from a Pianta or a blue coin drop from an enemy. On III, there is nothing to jump out towards that camera redirection would cause frustration for. There is nothing else to do but scale upwards on it.

With all that written, auto-rotation around structures should have been disabled since it interferes with movement. This kind-of camera aiding is unnecessary with such an advanced camera system in place.

CAMERA MOVEMENT CAUSED BY ENEMY
I. The camera auto-rotates around certain bosses. (i.e. the Big Blooper boss on the helipad in the harbor stage, the first Petey Piranha battle, the final battle etc.), which keeps them front and center. This functions as z-targeting does in Zelda: OOT.

Auto-rotation should be disabled because the enemies are not hard to keep track of since Mario is so fast.

So the big question is what do people think of auto-rotation?

I think that the default camera rotating caused by Mario being tailored to the level design is well done. I don't agree with having the camera being affected by structures or bosses because that causes altered movement. The player is given the c-stick and L Trigger (slight press) to deal with manual rotating around towers. Auto-rotation to help with basic functions for beginner players actually negatively impacts the game.



Do you even rotate?

Next thread: Clipping and the silhouette.
 

Lathentar

Looking for Pants
If you don't auto-rotate around certain structures the camera has to pop in front of the structure, this can be much more jarring than the auto-rotation to get out of the way. The camera rotating around enemies is a bit trickier in a game like mario where camera rotation will throw off platforming precision, but in the boss levels the bosses are the focus and if I remember correctly not much platforming.

A large number of players will not use the c-stick and L-Trigger to manually rotate the camera.
 

WillyFive

Member
I've played all 3D platformers as an FPS since the N64 (moving Mario around by just moving the camera stick as opposed to running in a direction you can't see), especially for Sunshine because it had a really free and easy to control camera. The auto rotation was an annoyance more than anything else.
 

Shiggy

Member
The camera system definitely had its issues. While you sometimes wants to move it around to see where you are moving, the camera either doesn't move where you are directing or it makes some strange sudden move. In that sense, auto-rotation was quite good in some levels - but only for slight movements/adjustments. When the camera had sudden and very effectful auto-rotation, it was quite an annoyance that led to frustrating movements. So I definitely agree with your point that it negatively affects the game.

Super Mario Galaxy, while much more limited in terms of camera adjustments, had a much better camera system altogether. Auto-rotation was fine-tuned for that title.
 

halfbeast

Banned
Do423bB.gif


Someone Rotated the Camera in Mario Sunshine, You Won't Believe What Happens Next...No. 2 will shock you!

Sonic hates him!
 

krainert

Neo Member
I think OP's observations are interesting, though. I never noticed the stage-dependent camera modes in SM64 except for the Bowser levels, and now it makes me think that different camera modes within each level might be a viable potential evolution of this. Imagine, for example, that the camera auto-rotated to follow Mario in the open areas of Bob-Omb Battlefield, kept a sidescrolling perspective when passing Chain Chump, the succeeding bridge, and the ball pit, and rotated around the spiral mountain as Mario ascends towards the King. It's been too long since I played an all-out platformer for me to be able to tell if this could work, but I think it's an interesting thought.
Also, I've developed a fascination with the prospect of removing the player's control of the camera entirely, although the comment about playing platformers as shooters has made me reconsider...
 

Stopdoor

Member
Honestly this seems like a topic you're not doing justice in text form, a video would be way better. It's alot of dry information with no demonstration, it's hard for people to give an opinion on what you're talking about without seeing the visual difference themselves.
 
Honestly this seems like a topic you're not doing justice in text form, a video would be way better. It's alot of dry information with no demonstration, it's hard for people to give an opinion on what you're talking about without seeing the visual difference themselves.

You're right. Next thread will have gifs. I don't have the footage for the auto-rotation effect when running on top of the windmill. I do have some footage showing auto-rotation around trees and crates and how it diminishes when you zoom out the camera: https://youtu.be/Iy8YMbyMf1E?t=1m47s

If you don't auto-rotate around certain structures the camera has to pop in front of the structure, this can be much more jarring than the auto-rotation to get out of the way. The camera rotating around enemies is a bit trickier in a game like mario where camera rotation will throw off platforming precision, but in the boss levels the bosses are the focus and if I remember correctly not much platforming.

A large number of players will not use the c-stick and L-Trigger to manually rotate the camera.

Hmm. Can you setup a scenario for me so I can record that?

Why couldn't this be part of your thread about Super Mario Sunshine's camera from two weeks ago? http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1255623
I wanted to isolate individual parts of the camera system to discuss them one by one instead of making a megathread.

I think OP's observations are interesting, though. I never noticed the stage-dependent camera modes in SM64 except for the Bowser levels, and now it makes me think that different camera modes within each level might be a viable potential evolution of this. Imagine, for example, that the camera auto-rotated to follow Mario in the open areas of Bob-Omb Battlefield, kept a sidescrolling perspective when passing Chain Chump, the succeeding bridge, and the ball pit, and rotated around the spiral mountain as Mario ascends towards the King. It's been too long since I played an all-out platformer for me to be able to tell if this could work, but I think it's an interesting thought.
Also, I've developed a fascination with the prospect of removing the player's control of the camera entirely, although the comment about playing platformers as shooters has made me reconsider...

All of that can or does happen on Bob-Omb Battlefield with the exception of auto-rotation around Mario. The camera behaves similarly to this in Noki Bay in Sunshine. When you get onto the mainland wall portion the L Trigger (slight press) rotation mechanic doesn't work. Having the camera hold steady when doing linear sections does happen in Sunshine's athletic courses and on tight ropes in the open areas. It's nice that these games allow you to freely lock the camera in place on these sections instead of automatically fixing the camera as in other games.

I've played all 3D platformers as an FPS since the N64 (moving Mario around by just moving the camera stick as opposed to running in a direction you can't see), especially for Sunshine because it had a really free and easy to control camera. The auto rotation was an annoyance more than anything else.
Interesting that you don't have any big complaints from neglecting the camera stick. At first though I thought you hacked the games to give you a first person perspective.
 

TheMoon

Member
But you did not address the biggest question of all ...
what's with the god damn double titles lol
 

ec0ec0

Member
OP was great, honestly. Better written than the first one.

edit:

Honestly this seems like a topic you're not doing justice in text form, a video would be way better. It's alot of dry information with no demonstration, it's hard for people to give an opinion on what you're talking about without seeing the visual difference themselves.

also this. People who have played sunshine recently/a lot can picture what you're saying in their head, everyone else, not so much.
 
But you did not address the biggest question of all ...
what's with the god damn double titles lol

I'm going to hazard a guess that he's posting from mobile. It's been notorious for messing with people's posts and other users here have had problems with accidentally repeating words (Rich?).
 

Rich!

Member
I'm going to hazard a guess that he's posting from mobile. It's been notorious for messing with people's posts and other users here have had problems with accidentally repeating words (Rich?).

Yes

My old Sony Xperia used to love doubling sentences. Every time I pressed space it repeated the last sentence

Only happened sometimes but once it happened I had to restart the whole phone
 

Lathentar

Looking for Pants
Hmm. Can you setup a scenario for me so I can record that?
Uhh, try to run parallel with a wall (with the camera behind Mario) then take a hard turn toward the wall when the structure ends. If the camera doesn't rotate, it will have to pop significantly forward to not get inside of the geometry the only other option is to do a quick rotate.
 

Glowsquid

Member
wait


miyamoto said that?????????

yeah, google "miyamoto casuals".

Since the start of the Wii U era, he's been outspoken about his frustration with casual players. here's a similar quote from an interview done a few months ago

Pikmin is the kind of game that you have to play maybe three times to get the full effect, but you know, people don’t have a lot of time, so they just clear the stage and just move on. Games are becoming more of a consumable product, and it’s getting harder and harder for people to let a game to sink in and enjoy leisurely.
 
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