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[Massa]

Do you think MS or Sony will ditch backwards compatibility next gen?

I think they should dump it and just focus on next gen only system...

Microsoft won't. The 360 was well designed in that regard.

Sony is fucked unless they go with an evolution of the Cell. It's a lose-lose scenario, really.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

The way PowerVR GPUs scale is completely different to how a high end GPU scales.

High end GPUs are already inherently parallel, they even have multiple geometry pipelines these days. All a dual GPU setup is going to do is duplicate the parts of the pipeline that simply don't need to be duplicated, it's just going to reduce efficiency. Nvidia have been tweaking and refining SLI on the PC for nigh on a.decade now and it's still a fundamentally broken solution.

This rumour is pathetic and isn't even worth proper discussion. These chumps need to actually start putting some effort into creating their rumours.

Get yourself an avatar dude, so i don´t miss your posts

 

[thuway]

This might be ignorant, but what quantifiable advantage would one see from GDDR5 to DDR4/3?

In essence, would it be smarter to have 4 GB of DDR3 and 2 GB of GDDR5? As opposed to 4 GB of GDDR5?

 

[monome]

Do you think MS or Sony will ditch backwards compatibility next gen?

I think they should dump it and just focus on next gen only system...

I think they could.
What about a dual consoles model? You've got the higher end, next-gen model, and another secondary model that is an evolution of the previous console.

Say Xbox 10 is full next gen (big box), and Xboxtv (small box) is Live and games on demand compatible (with a redeem system ala Vita for disc owners).

Many internet providers offer a two box solution nowadays : a router + tv box.

 

[luffeN]

Just to throw it out there, but what of DDR4?

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/pcw/docs/387/444/html/kaigai-09.jpg.html

It's due to start mass production 2012, offers much lower power consumption than DDR3, will be commercialised in 4Gbit modules...

Maybe would be borderline whether it would be worth it in a 2012 machine, depending on clocks/bandwidth etc (?) Will be pricey in 2012, maybe the tech benefit wouldn't be deemed worth it.

Just wondering also about the cost-curve going forward on DDR3 modules. If they choose that, will they be able to decrease the number of modules over time? Are 8Gbit DDR3 modules planned? Or could they replace them in later revisions with DDR4 modules with the same performance characteristics, and benefit from higher density modules there?

This and more in the next episode of Gofreak's Speculation! xD

But if a company instantly uses the DDR4 and mass-orders them, wouldn't they then drop in price really early?

 

[coldvein]

does any of this mean that i'll be able to play darksouls backwards compat. without a shithouse framerate?

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

does any of this mean that i'll be able to play darksouls backwards compat. without a shithouse framerate?

No, because the game is designed for a set specification, it wouldn't even be able to tell that it's running on a different system. A new console can't just magically make an older game run smoother (unless it's doing BC through emulation, which absolutely will not happen because today's hardware isn't powerful enough to HLE the 360 or PS3)

 

[blu]

The way PowerVR GPUs scale is completely different to how a high end GPU scales.

If you're implying the tiling rasterizer model, quite a few gpus, mobile or otherwise, use it. There's nothing so much special about PVR in that aspect (hint: your bottom-feeder intel GMA9xx uses tiling). Actually, for quite a long time now gpus have been doing hierarchical partitioning of their screen-space workload - starting from the tiniest clusters of pixels (i.e. a quad) and moving up to various aggregations of those. Parallelizing such workloads across multiple cores is nothing that special. Actually, more than a few gpu designs has been essentially a smaller part copy-pasted N times.

High end GPUs are already inherently parallel, they even have multiple geometry pipelines these days.

What's a geometry pipeline in the context of unified shaders? If you're referring to post-transformed/post-GS vertex FIFO's, those are just as copy-past-able as the pixel clusters we discussed above.

All a dual GPU setup is going to do is duplicate the parts of the pipeline that simply don't need to be duplicated, it's just going to reduce efficiency.

A desktop-breed SLI-type of configuration duplicates parts to redundancy just because such a setup consists of individual, self-sustained units, i.e. if you somehow took apart the setup you would end up with N individual gpus. Nothing necessitates such redundancies (or at least not to this extent) in a properly customized MP gpu setup. Heck, you cannot take apart Vita's MP - it's all in the SoC. You can bet that all the synthesizable macros that were deemed redundant have been eliminated.

Nvidia have been tweaking and refining SLI on the PC for nigh on a.decade now and it's still a fundamentally broken solution.

You're focusing on SLI more than necessary.

This rumour is pathetic and isn't even worth proper discussion. These chumps need to actually start putting some effort into creating their rumours.

This rumor is as good as most of them. Well, 2GB of UMA does sound on the low side for MS (if it's UMA to boot), but much more ludicrous rumors have been well entertained on gaf.

 

[The Shift]

I think they could.
What about a dual consoles model? You've got the higher end, next-gen model, and another secondary model that is an evolution of the previous console.

Say Xbox 10 is full next gen (big box), and Xboxtv (small box) is Live and games on demand compatible (with a redeem system ala Vita for disc owners).

Many internet providers offer a two box solution nowadays : a router + tv box.

The great benefit of having 'thousands of apps' to new customers outweighs any tech advantages that a high end non backward compatible box would bring to the marketplace. In the case of the xbox product having two of each store would be very haphazard and probably detrimental to both the low end and high end console/s. With Windows 8 being very Metro focused along with WP7 and the latest xbox dash update it might be wise to consider this as the start of an amalgamation of the back-end services to all three devices. As a minor transaction example buying Zune movie content that can be viewed on any of the three 'screens' seems to be the way forward. Apply that to games and cloud based services for a near term conclusion.

 

[mrklaw]

No, because the game is designed for a set specification, it wouldn't even be able to tell that it's running on a different system. A new console can't just magically make an older game run smoother (unless it's doing BC through emulation, which absolutely will not happen because today's hardware isn't powerful enough to HLE the 360 or PS3)

you sure? If something like dark souls is dropping frames then surely if you put it on an overclocked PS3 it would drop frames?

 

[Risk Breaker]

Well, I have actual programming experience, and I'll tell you that crytek could make good use of 8GB easily. Basically, next generation hardware will be capable, in terms of speed, to handle assets (meshes, textures, whatever) at almost 10 times the complexity of the current console generation. And for most games, those assets are already made at that resolution, so it's not like production costs would skyrocket. Given that, even if we don't expect more open-ended, complex and interactive worlds and gameplay from next gen (I do!), a 8x increase in RAM could well be used up by assets alone.

Wow, thank you so much for saying this. It's amazing how often people forget how assets are actually created nowadays. Still, most people won't bother reading this.

 

[Haunted]

Only 2GB!?




edit: why can't Microsoft and Sony just develop for the PC.

 

[wsippel]

The biggest problem at the moment for RAM on a console is chip size and cost. If we just look at chip size, 2GB of DDR3 can be done with 4x 4Gb (512MB) chips, as previously mentioned. DDR3 is cheap but slow as dogshit for a console. You might have, for example, 8GB of RAM in your PC, but none of that is being used to crunch 3D graphics in your games because it's slow as dogshit.

That comparison is meaningless. The Power7 with its twin quad channel memory controllers exceeds 100GB/s sustained on DDR3, about five times faster than what the 360 manages to achieve on GDDR3 (22.4GB/s). Would require an eight chip solution, though.

 

[monome]

The great benefit of having 'thousands of apps' to new customers outweighs any tech advantages that a high end non backward compatible box would bring to the marketplace. In the case of the xbox product having two of each store would be very haphazard and probably detrimental to both the low end and high end console/s. With Windows 8 being very Metro focused along with WP7 and the latest xbox dash update it might be wise to consider this as the start of an amalgamation of the back-end services to all three devices. As a minor transaction example buying Zune movie content that can be viewed on any of the three 'screens' seems to be the way forward. Apply that to games and cloud based services for a near term conclusion.

I'm all for it. But why launch the big powerfull next-gen system to play Splosion man?
I don't need a 6-core, 2GPU machine to mess around with apps and TV channels, and I'd rather have an always on, not Watt gulping connected box.
I just fire the big box when it comes to my next-gen experience.
Down the line, they could merge the two machines. But I know it won't happen this way.

Like having a mac and an apple tv.

 

[Gravijah]

Only 2GB!?




edit: why can't Microsoft and Sony just develop for the PC.

they do

 

[gofreak]

This might be ignorant, but what quantifiable advantage would one see from GDDR5 to DDR4/3?

In essence, would it be smarter to have 4 GB of DDR3 and 2 GB of GDDR5? As opposed to 4 GB of GDDR5?

Just a hunch, but I think devs would prefer capacity to speed for most things. Up to a certain point. Basing that on the fact that most devs preferred 360's memory setup because it gave them easier access to more capacity for a given task, even if it was 'slower' than PS3's memory.

Neither 4GB of GDDR5 or 4GB of DDR3 + 2GB of GDDR5 is likely to be on the cards in 2012, though. Each would require 16 RAM chips. If it was possible, the latter might be preferred because you still have faster memory for your GPU, with 50% larger capacity overall.

That's why I think the 8-module variant on the latter scenario might be a possibility - 2GB DDR3 + 1GB GDDR5. Would be curious to have confirmation of whether or not it's the case, but I've an inkling many devs would trade UMA for 50% more capacity overall.

 

[legend166]

Anyone else surprised Microsoft is moving so early?

 

[dragonelite]

Just a hunch, but I think devs would prefer capacity to speed for most things. Up to a certain point. Basing that on the fact that most devs preferred 360's memory setup because it gave them easier access to more capacity for a given task, even if it was 'slower' than PS3's memory.

Neither 4GB of GDDR5 or 4GB of DDR3 + 2GB of GDDR5 is likely to be on the cards in 2012, though. Each would require 16 RAM chips. If it was possible, the latter might be preferred because you still have faster memory for your GPU, with 50% larger capacity overall.

That's why I think the 8-module variant on the latter scenario might be a possibility - 2GB DDR3 + 1GB GDDR5.

Capacity was number on Crytek list if i wasn't mistaken.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Anyone else surprised Microsoft is moving so early?

Absolutely not.

Kinect was introduced to bridge the transition, now it's time to strike while the iron is hot.

 

[Raide]

I think they could.
What about a dual consoles model? You've got the higher end, next-gen model, and another secondary model that is an evolution of the previous console.

Say Xbox 10 is full next gen (big box), and Xboxtv (small box) is Live and games on demand compatible (with a redeem system ala Vita for disc owners).

Many internet providers offer a two box solution nowadays : a router + tv box.

They ran into this problem with the 360. If they make 2 different versions, developers will have to cater to the lower one. It makes more sense to have the 720 as the high end hardcore system and just drop the price of the 360 to £99.

Anyone else surprised Microsoft is moving so early?

I am guessing MS don't want to give Nintendo too much of a headstart again. With a new gen, everything gets reset and I am sure MS is watching the Wii-U closely.

 

[Kaako]

Absolutely not.

Kinect was introduced to bridge the transition, now it's time to strike while the iron is hot.

You excited for "next-gen" Kinect? I wonder if they'll focus heavily on the hands-free stuff.
Should be interesting times ahead.

 

[subversus]

frankly speaking I'm more interested in what functionality the new console will have other than playing games.

Because that's what really important.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

You excited for "next-gen" Kinect? I wonder if they'll focus heavily on the hands-free stuff.
Should be interesting times ahead.

Personally no.

Kinect will definitely be present and be presented as a core function, however I think it will be more invisible. Built into the console, much more accurate and ultimately less intrusive.

 

[Raide]

frankly speaking I'm more interested in what functionality the new console will have other than playing games.

Because that's what really important.

Some media stuff, some UI and OS stuff, maybe some voice stuff...its mainly about games.

 

[venne]

Anyone else surprised Microsoft is moving so early?

Seven years is early? It's one of the longest supported consoles ever.

 

[eastmen]

I'm all for it. But why launch the big powerfull next-gen system to play Splosion man?
I don't need a 6-core, 2GPU machine to mess around with apps and TV channels, and I'd rather have an always on, not Watt gulping connected box.
I just fire the big box when it comes to my next-gen experience.
Down the line, they could merge the two machines. But I know it won't happen this way.

Like having a mac and an apple tv.

Power saving tech has come a long way. You could have a box that uses200 Watts when gameing and only 20 when watching tv

 

[eastmen]

Just a hunch, but I think devs would prefer capacity to speed for most things. Up to a certain point. Basing that on the fact that most devs preferred 360's memory setup because it gave them easier access to more capacity for a given task, even if it was 'slower' than PS3's memory.

Neither 4GB of GDDR5 or 4GB of DDR3 + 2GB of GDDR5 is likely to be on the cards in 2012, though. Each would require 16 RAM chips. If it was possible, the latter might be preferred because you still have faster memory for your GPU, with 50% larger capacity overall.

That's why I think the 8-module variant on the latter scenario might be a possibility - 2GB DDR3 + 1GB GDDR5. Would be curious to have confirmation of whether or not it's the case, but I've an inkling many devs would trade UMA for 50% more capacity overall.

What will they do with 4 it's of DDR 3. I'd think 2 gigs system and 4 gigs vram would be wiser. Or even 2 and 2 but go with faster vram. Also higher density chips could be in the cards

 

[deathkiller]

Seven years is early? It's one of the longest supported consoles ever.

Indeed, if we count time until successor I don't know if any home console has reached the eight years.

 

[eastmen]

Indeed, if we count time until successor I don't know if any home console has reached the eight years.

yea and if the system does drop in 2012 but the ps4 doesn't come out til fall 2013 , the 360 will have yet another year of great third party support. Infact 3rd party support would most likely not drop off until 2014 . It could be the first true 10 year console where there are constantly new games coming out for it during the 10 years

 

[confused]

What will they do with 4 it's of DDR 3. I'd think 2 gigs system and 4 gigs vram would be wiser. Or even 2 and 2 but go with faster vram. Also higher density chips could be in the cards

Lulz, Maybe for PS5 / Xbox 2020. I highly doubt we'll get more than 1GB Vram. Which is plenty for a closed box.

 

[gofreak]

What will they do with 4 it's of DDR 3. I'd think 2 gigs system and 4 gigs vram would be wiser. Or even 2 and 2 but go with faster vram. Also higher density chips could be in the cards

2 of system (DDR3) + 2 of VRAM (GDDR5) would require 12 modules, assuming higher density GDDR5 doesn't become available next year.

2+4 would require 20.

There might be higher density GDDR5 on the cards, but haven't been able to find mention of that anywhere yet.

There is another possibility on the other end of the scale here - we're assuming MS 'has to' have faster memory somewhere for the GPU. But they might mirror the 360 design, put eDRAM off the GPU, put 2GB of DDR3 in UMA, and call it a day. That's a possibility if they want to save money, want the kind of design they initially intended for 360 (4 RAM chips, 256MB).

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Anyone else surprised Microsoft is moving so early?

What do you mean by moving? Everyone's been working on their next generation systems for a while now, there's nothing surprising about that. I don't think launching in 2013 can be seen as early either, unless you think the rumors about the 2012 launch hold some merit, which they don't. They're ridiculous and based on a singular misguided notion that Microsoft would value getting a jump on Sony/launching close to Nintendo over enjoying their current success with the 360 and executing their own long-term strategy.

 

[BurntPork]

What are you talking about? Sure, no matter what the specs are, they will be outdated eventually, but 4gb of ram will absolutely make development easier, and help consoles keep up with PCs a bit longer. I figure if Crytek said they want 8gb, they know more than me and you. More memory is always good.

Also, what about 3gb? Couldn't they do that?

16GB would make development even more easy!

 

[monome]

They ran into this problem with the 360. If they make 2 different versions, developers will have to cater to the lower one. It makes more sense to have the 720 as the high end hardcore system and just drop the price of the 360 to £99.





I am guessing MS don't want to give Nintendo too much of a headstart again. With a new gen, everything gets reset and I am sure MS is watching the Wii-U closely.

Xbox tv is not a next gen console in this exemple.
It's a mean of making money from XBOX360 while adding revenues from apps and TV subscriptions. Not disc based as to not confuse consummers.

Or, Kinect 2 is a set top-box, it can run independently of XBOX 10 some apps and TV channels, and it also connects to XBOX 10 for full/fuller kinect/live/tv/games experiences.

 

[Majine]

I hope it is digital-only. I think Microsoft, of the big three is the most capable on creating a full on digital platform.

 

[[Nintex]]

Look at this from MS's perspective:

Sony: Focus is on Vita and a new type of TV Stringer is hyping up. Credit outlook is 'negative' they keep losing millions and the strong Yen is killing them. Move didn't do that well. MS is still ahead of them in the US by quite a margin.

Nintendo: Messed up the 3DS launch, had to double back on that and take a hit on hardware. Revealed Wii U at E3 2011, went back to the drawing board with some bits and delayed the launch. Has EA breathing down their necks to make it Origin exclusive. Wii has pretty much nothing after Zelda and starts to tank pretty bad. DS is on its way out and they have this whole iOS/Android thing to deal with.

Seriously, why wouldn't they launch? Why would they wait for Nintendo and Sony to get their shit together? They've got the edge here, Sony blew all their cash last gen.

 

[Plinko]

Look at this from MS's perspective:

Sony: Focus is on Vita and a new type of TV Stringer is hyping up. Credit outlook is 'negative' they keep losing millions and the strong Yen is killing them. Move didn't do that well. MS is still ahead of them in the US by quite a margin.

Nintendo: Messed up the 3DS launch, had to double back on that and take a hit on hardware. Revealed Wii U at E3 2011, went back to the drawing board with some bits and delayed the launch. Has EA breathing down their necks to make it Origin exclusive. Wii has pretty much nothing after Zelda and starts to tank pretty bad. DS is on its way out and they have this whole iOS/Android thing to deal with.

Seriously, why wouldn't they launch? Why would they wait for Nintendo and Sony to get their shit together? They've got the edge here, Sony blew all their cash last gen.

I agree with all this BUT only if MS knows for sure they're releasing a console that doesn't have major issues like the last one.

 

[Raide]

I hope it is digital-only. I think Microsoft, of the big three is the most capable on creating a full on digital platform.

The average consumer is not ready for DD only.

 

[Majine]

The average consumer is not ready for DD only.

I think smartphones and tablets show that they are.

In any case, I want a console that takes the best aspects of those devices (Simplicity, Accessibility) and the experience that only consoles can provide, and marry them.

 

[PerZona]

I guess the new Xbox announcement will be made in E3 next year, and release date might be end of 2012 or early 2013. PS4 would definitely be in 2013 though, considering that they will be focusing more on Vita next year.

 

[monome]

I think smartphones and tablets show that they are.

In any case, I want a console that takes the best aspects of those devices (Simplicity, Accessibility) and the experience that only consoles can provide, and marry them.

You don't get people to download 10s of gigs like they do with 10s of megs.

Access to fiber is critical when you get to download full games as it speeds up the process to make it forgettable.
I have fiber access at home and enjoy big downloads, so do guys in Japan, Korea, some big US cities, Germany. Hardly the majority of consumers.

 

[Majine]

You don't get people to download 10s of gigs like they do with 10s of megs.

One of the biggest games on the App Store (commercially) is like 600MB, which for the format is kinda crazy. Besides, Microsoft are good at making downloads pretty painless.

 

[frankie_baby]

I think smartphones and tablets show that they are.

In any case, I want a console that takes the best aspects of those devices (Simplicity, Accessibility) and the experience that only consoles can provide, and marry them.

I think smartphones and tablets show people are ready for digital only when it comes to free or might as well be free software

 

[BurntPork]

One of the biggest games on the App Store (commercially) is like 600MB, which for the format is kinda crazy. Besides, Microsoft are good at making downloads pretty painless.

Download caps.

Well, that was an easy point to kill.

 

[Raide]

I think smartphones and tablets show that they are.

In any case, I want a console that takes the best aspects of those devices (Simplicity, Accessibility) and the experience that only consoles can provide, and marry them.

I guess this is what MS are trying with all the constant dashboard updates. The only thing consoles really have over mobile devices are big budget theatrical games, that come with a $60 tag attached to them. Streaming music/movies etc is the territory mobile is well into.

 

[Mik2121]

I think smartphones and tablets show that they are.

In any case, I want a console that takes the best aspects of those devices (Simplicity, Accessibility) and the experience that only consoles can provide, and marry them.

Yes, because downloading mostly free apps that average around 30mb or less is the same than having to download 'apps' that cost $60 and are (by the time next gen arrives) around 15gb on average, the same.

And that on a device that used to have physical equivalent of those downloads, unlike the smartphones and tablets.

Totally the same.




And no, it's not going to happen. At least not this gen, I believe. For PC, sure.. but most console owners are not ready for that kind of stuff.

 

[goodfella]

I haven't been following gaming for long enough to know if they would show games at the same time they announce a new console.

Is this likely?

 

[venne]

Download caps.

Well, that was an easy point to kill.

Steam.

Well, that was an easy point to kill.

 

[Raide]

I haven't been following gaming for long enough to know if they would show games at the same time they announce a new console.

Is this likely?

Tech demo's or what it could do aka Wii-U.

Show off something Halo related, something Gears/Samaritan etc, maybe something Banjo/Perfect Dark to enrage RARE fans.

Steam.

Well, that was an easy point to kill.

If they added Steam, that would be awesome but it still won't drop the need for an optical drive for all those big budget retail games.

 

[Mik2121]

I haven't been following gaming for long enough to know if they would show games at the same time they announce a new console.

Is this likely?

They will either show:

a) A pre-rendered tech demo (visual target) that's been created based on the estimated specs of the console.

or

b) Show some realtime demonstration working on a PC, again, based on the specs of the console. Something like the Samaritan demo from Epic Games released a few months ago, but catered to that console, rather than "what's coming in the future".