Support NeoGAF

[Proelite]

Food for thought: the dual GPU is a new gpu with the old gpu alongside it hmmm

Mostly like it's a low clocked 6990 running with minimal feature sets.

Before people say that that's not impossible due to the current card drawing 375 watts, understand that with a customized 28nm solution in console they can achieve the performance with less 100 watts of the desktop equivalent.

 

[StevieP]

You don't just add a little more power to anything this late in the design process. The metal, the hardware specs were probably 100% finalized long long ago, so far back that nothing else could start until they were defined.

Xbox 360 says hello.

WiiU is going to be what its going to be and the next Xbox and Playstation are going to trump it, guaranteed.

No shit. The question is by how much? Even in the worst case scenario, it won't be a gulf. There won't be a repeat of this gen in that regard.

Nintendo is going to have to rely on first party titles and its loyal fan base

And multiplatform ports.

In 2012 and beyond, key online network functionality, media center capabilities are going to be just as important as gaming itself. Nintendo really has little to no experience in this regard and if they do not change it they are going to fall by the wayside in that regard.

Latest rumours have EA doing the online.

I think they'll be just fine.. for now. MS is going to flex its muscles next gen with software features. They are a software giant, expect Live and all of its features to blow wide open.

Rumours have Windows 8 core and its UI across all of Microsoft's 2012 products, including OS/Xbox/phone.

Mostly like it's a low clocked 6990 running with minimal feature sets.

Way too power-hungry. Not even close. Look at 70w parts.

 

[eastmen]

Food for thought: the dual GPU is a new gpu with the old gpu alongside it hmmm

why would they waste all that space on such an old gpu ?

They can fit alot of edram into that space or just make the new gpu that much more powerful

 

[bgassassin]

Mostly like it's a low clocked 6990 running with minimal feature sets.

I forgot to mention that I do agree with the idea that it might be a dev kit.

 

[S1kkZ]

i hope ms has a good launch lineup (which i doubt since they seem to rush it) but i really hope they dont have kinect 2.0 at launch. they should market the console as a hardcore gaming machine and introduce the new kinect in 2013. untill then, they can sell the 360 + kinect for a low price as a "casual" bundle.

 

[Proelite]

Way too power-hungry. Not even close. Look at 70w parts.

A 28nm 70W watt part in a console is like a 40nm 250W+ part in a desktop.

You can strip a lot of things off, lower the clock, take out the fan, and sometimes take out the power for the ram itself.

The early 360 dev kits had 2 x800 that draws 150W+ each at peak. Xenos is no where near that and is actually much more powerful.

 

[DopeyFish]

why would they waste all that space on such an old gpu ?

They can fit alot of edram into that space or just make the new gpu that much more powerful

Unless they want perfect backwards compatibility, a low power mode for dashboard operation and having the flexibility of having the 360 gpu working on AA or something to that effect- or having intensive Xbox guide graphics which won't impact the new GPU

Plus it's already at a good price and produced at high volume

Compared to the current high end pc chips, it has 10% of the transistors- you could theoretically put the new GPU and old GPU on the same die at this point

 

[magash]

A 28nm 70W watt part in a console is like a 40nm 250W+ part in a desktop.

You can strip a lot of things off, lower the clock, take out the fan, and sometimes take out the power for the ram itself.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Proelite]

Are you sure about that?

I am pretty sure that you get like 50% with the fab shrink itself, and another 50% by lowering the clock at stripping out unnecessary parts + moving the ram off the chip.

 

[StevieP]

I am pretty sure that you get like 50% with the fab shrink itself, and another 50% by lowering the clock at stripping out unnecessary parts + moving the ram off the chip.

In other words, you're not sure. Because it's not that cut-and-dry.
You can ask TSMC.

 

[diffusionx]

Unless they want perfect backwards compatibility, a low power mode for dashboard operation and having the flexibility of having the 360 gpu working on AA or something to that effect- or having intensive Xbox guide graphics which won't impact the new GPU

Plus it's already at a good price and produced at high volume

It's not produced at high volume, though - current 360 design has the CPU and GPU merged into one chip.

 

[Raistlin]

Wait ... people are seriously entertaining the idea of 2GB of VRAM?

Seriously?

 

[S1kkZ]

Wait ... people are seriously entertaining the idea of 2GB of VRAM?

Seriously?

i am a tech noob. what is vram used for again?

 

[Proelite]

In other words, you're not sure. Because it's not that cut-and-dry.
You can ask TSMC.

I am not sure they are the exact percentages, but I am sure that they are significant percentages.

 

[1-D_FTW]

I am pretty sure that you get like 50% with the fab shrink itself, and another 50% by lowering the clock at stripping out unnecessary parts + moving the ram off the chip.

Stripping off fans and RAM isn't going to amount to a whole lot.

I'll agree consoles can do a whole lot more with less, so it's crazy to compare PC performance with comparable parts. But fans and RAM aren't where you're saving a whole lot. Fans are literally nothing (2 or 3 watts) and RAM, while it uses some wattage, certainly isn't using a meaningful percentage of a GPU's power consumption.

 

[low-G]

Less than I was expecting, but understandable considering how slow PC gaming is moving these days. If you were to draw a linear RAM vs console years we should have been looking at 8 or 16GB. But gaming has changed, man.

 

[Proelite]

Stripping off fans and RAM isn't going to amount to a whole lot.

I'll agree consoles can do a whole lot more with less, so it's crazy to compare PC performance with comparable parts. But fans and RAM aren't where you're saving a whole lot. Fans are literally nothing (2 or 3 watts) and RAM, while it uses some wattage, certainly isn't using a meaningful percentage of a GPU's power consumption.

Great post.

I think that it's okay to assume that devkits for console can pack some serious high cards, based on historical evidence and the fact that console can do much more with less silicon.

EDIT: How much watt does 256 mb of GDDR5 use at peak?

 

[Digital-Hero]

Depends on the CPU architecture, I think. If they use anything else than PowerPC for the CPU (ARM, x86), they'll have to use software emulation.

Thats assuming Xenon or Xenos is not in the new console. Just like the PS2 and PS3 (early models), there was hardware to ensure solid backwards compat.

 

[DR3AM]

At first I didn't believe the 2012 rumors, but now with all these lilltle leaks, xbox 3 in 2012 is becoming more and more reality.

 

[Hawk269]

With all the talk of parts etc. All I really care about is that I get:

* 60fps constant
* Pure 1080p output
* Minimum 8xAA
* AnisFiltering x16
* Enough Memory for High Res Textures
* Advanced Global Lighting Solution
* HDD Standard in all Systems (250gig minimum) w/500gig "Deluxe Version"

I currently game with 2x580's 3gb GPU's in my rig. And while all that horsepower is great, the big difference between consoles/PC's is that developers can really make the specs of a console stretch because every console has the same specs. With PC's, there are thousand upon thousands of configuration.

If you look at Skyrim, it is amazing what they did with the 360 specs of 512k ram etc. Imagine what they could do with 2-4gigs of ram etc? I know alot of folks are wanting more RAM and I agree to a certain extent, but it is pretty amazing what we are getting with 512 right now. But for future proofing, 4gigs would be better in the long run.

But at the end of the day, all I want is a console system that can give me what I listed above in every game.

 

[brotkasten]

Thats assuming Xenon or Xenos is not in the new console. Just like the PS2 and PS3 (early models), there was hardware to ensure solid backwards compat.

Build-in BC hardware is pretty expensive. They didn't do it with the 360 and I don't think they'll start with the successor.

With all the talk of parts etc. All I really care about is that I get:

* 60fps constant
* Pure 1080p output
* Minimum 8xAA
* AnisFiltering x16
* Enough Memory for High Res Textures
* Advanced Global Lighting Solution
* HDD Standard in all Systems (250gig minimum) w/500gig "Deluxe Version"

No to the first four points. Won't happen.

 

[statham]

Food for thought: the dual GPU is a new gpu with the old gpu alongside it hmmm

I thought the same thing.

 

[LightofRohan]

You don't understand, you can think like this. "Oh it's only $15 they shouldn't cheap out."

If you tack on an extra $5 cost to each console, it adds up. The 360 has sold over 57 million systems. However prices go down, so let's just say 10 million x 5 = $50,000,000

That's an extra $50 million dollars. When Microsoft decided to include 512mb of ram into the 360 instead of 256mb, it costs them 1 billion dollars.

So? Charge $5 more for each console. Winner?

 

[dragonelite]

With all the talk of parts etc. All I really care about is that I get:

* 60fps constant
* Pure 1080p output
* Minimum 8xAA
* AnisFiltering x16
* Enough Memory for High Res Textures
* Advanced Global Lighting Solution
* HDD Standard in all Systems (250gig minimum) w/500gig "Deluxe Version"

I currently game with 2x580's 3gb GPU's in my rig. And while all that horsepower is great, the big difference between consoles/PC's is that developers can really make the specs of a console stretch because every console has the same specs. With PC's, there are thousand upon thousands of configuration.

If you look at Skyrim, it is amazing what they did with the 360 specs of 512k ram etc. Imagine what they could do with 2-4gigs of ram etc? I know alot of folks are wanting more RAM and I agree to a certain extent, but it is pretty amazing what we are getting with 512 right now. But for future proofing, 4gigs would be better in the long run.

But at the end of the day, all I want is a console system that can give me what I listed above in every game.

Haha at the 8xMsaa that is the only one that probably wont make it sadly the same with your 60fps request.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

With all the talk of parts etc. All I really care about is that I get:

* 60fps constant
* Pure 1080p output
* Minimum 8xAA
* AnisFiltering x16
* Enough Memory for High Res Textures
* Advanced Global Lighting Solution
* HDD Standard in all Systems (250gig minimum) w/500gig "Deluxe Version"

I currently game with 2x580's 3gb GPU's in my rig. And while all that horsepower is great, the big difference between consoles/PC's is that developers can really make the specs of a console stretch because every console has the same specs. With PC's, there are thousand upon thousands of configuration.

If you look at Skyrim, it is amazing what they did with the 360 specs of 512k ram etc. Imagine what they could do with 2-4gigs of ram etc? I know alot of folks are wanting more RAM and I agree to a certain extent, but it is pretty amazing what we are getting with 512 right now. But for future proofing, 4gigs would be better in the long run.

But at the end of the day, all I want is a console system that can give me what I listed above in every game.

Listen man, devs are always going to push the envelope. You're never going to get 60 fps constant because they're going to push the hardware until it gives them 30.

 

[gofreak]

Thats assuming Xenon or Xenos is not in the new console. Just like the PS2 and PS3 (early models), there was hardware to ensure solid backwards compat.

That sort of BC is something I think everyone will be trying to avoid next time. It had expensive knock on effects for PS3 and (rather infamously) was one of the first things to be revised out. I think everyone will go with new hardware that is reasonably compatible with old software rather than chucking in hardware to cover BC exclusively.

 

[InfiniDragon]

I swear, Samaritan has completely poisoned the discussion of next generation consoles.

1) *none* of the next gen consoles will have the computational power required to render it
2) "bu-bu-bu it can be optimized for one GTX 580, they said!" equates to the downscaling of resolution, textures, light sources, etc. not to mention a GTX 580 is too hot and power hungry still for a console and its 22nm counterparts aren't going to help you here. Whatever is going into a 2012 console is not going to be a 2013 part.
3) Samaritan was a cutscene. There was no "game code" in it. By design, more of its i7+3 tri-SLI GTX 580s could be used to shiny it up
4) The cost to create a game that looks like that the whole way through for is not feasible, even if we had $799 consoles with the required minimum hardware for it

The end. Stop looking at it.

...Can we just put this post at the beginning of every next gen console discussion? Cause it would save so much time in the future.

 

[Luckyman]

...Can we just put this post at the beginning of every next gen console discussion? Cause it would save so much time in the future.

Nintendo defence for is strong

 

[Raistlin]

i am a tech noob. what is vram used for again?

Video memory. Basically what you would have on your GPU in a desktop.

The problem is that right now only the top-of-the-line AMD/ATI cards and one custom nVidia 580 have 2GB. Moreover, its benefit is only seen in situations where you are either running multiple monitors or a super high-res 30" screen.

Considering consoles will be targeting 1080p (or even 720p), that's just way overkill. Hell, it'll be years before even high-end PC games target that much memory for use with those resolutions - might not even be this upcoming gen.

 

[eastmen]

Unless they want perfect backwards compatibility, a low power mode for dashboard operation and having the flexibility of having the 360 gpu working on AA or something to that effect- or having intensive Xbox guide graphics which won't impact the new GPU

Plus it's already at a good price and produced at high volume

Compared to the current high end pc chips, it has 10% of the transistors- you could theoretically put the new GPU and old GPU on the same die at this point

I doubt the gpu is the worry . Remember while the gpu had edram only the rops were attached to the edram providing 256GB/s bandwidth , the edram + rops were connected to the rest of the gpu (which is another die) is only 32GB/s

10MB of edram is nothing this gen in terms of size , MS can put upwards of 90MBs of edram in their new console. It would be smarter for them to put 30MB or so in the new gpu than to keep theo ld gpu. There would be no point and it be a waste of silicon


As for low power mode. That isn't a problem , modern cpus can shut off full cores and clock the remaining cores down really low. Gpus also have a ton of power saving modes aside from just clocking lower

 

[eastmen]

Video memory. Basically what you would have on your GPU in a desktop.

The problem is that right now only the top-of-the-line AMD/ATI cards and one custom nVidia 580 have 2GB. Moreover, its benefit is only seen in situations where you are either running multiple monitors or a super high-res 30" screen.

Considering consoles will be targeting 1080p (or even 720p), that's just way overkill. Hell, it'll be years before even high-end PC games target that much memory for use with those resolutions - might not even be this upcoming gen.

This isn't the point. Modern PC games don't use gigs of ram becaue they are also designed for consoles that have 512 megs of total system ram. Not only that but 2 gig graphics cards are new. This last generation featured them and even now they are the minority of the market and will be for a long time.

Trust me if you give a game studio 2 gigs of vram to fill up for the next Call of duty title they will fill it . They will fill 4 gigs or 8 gigs or 32 gigs .

 

[BurntPork]

I doubt the gpu is the worry . Remember while the gpu had edram only the rops were attached to the edram providing 256GB/s bandwidth , the edram + rops were connected to the rest of the gpu (which is another die) is only 32GB/s

10MB of edram is nothing this gen in terms of size , MS can put upwards of 90MBs of edram in their new console. It would be smarter for them to put 30MB or so in the new gpu than to keep theo ld gpu. There would be no point and it be a waste of silicon


As for low power mode. That isn't a problem , modern cpus can shut off full cores and clock the remaining cores down really low. Gpus also have a ton of power saving modes aside from just clocking lower

Not enough. It needs at least a gig of eDRAM. This console lasts until 2020!

 

[Your Excellency]

Will GTA on the next gen systems be able to provide cities which are TEEMING with people? As in, proper crowds? I want crowds of people, and lots of traffic. I want Times Square to be at a fucking standstill so that the only way I can go is by zipping in between cars and on the pavement like a motherfucker. And I want to do all of this at 60fps LOCKED. I don't give a fuck what you say, when Driver San Francisco can do it this gen at 60fps, then they can do it with waaaaay more crowds and traffic next gen at the same frame rate.

 

[Instro]

With all the talk of parts etc. All I really care about is that I get:

* 60fps constant
* Pure 1080p output
* Minimum 8xAA
* AnisFiltering x16
* Enough Memory for High Res Textures
* Advanced Global Lighting Solution
* HDD Standard in all Systems (250gig minimum) w/500gig "Deluxe Version"

ITT, things we won't be getting next generation.

 

[Raistlin]

This isn't the point. Modern PC games don't use gigs of ram becaue they are also designed for consoles that have 512 megs of total system ram. Not only that but 2 gig graphics cards are new. This last generation featured them and even now they are the minority of the market and will be for a long time.

Trust me if you give a game studio 2 gigs of vram to fill up for the next Call of duty title they will fill it . They will fill 4 gigs or 8 gigs or 32 gigs .

Even assuming that were realistic, good luck fitting that in a console MoBo on top of main RAM

 

[kodt]

Listen man, devs are always going to push the envelope. You're never going to get 60 fps constant because they're going to push the hardware until it gives them 30.

This is the truth.

Current gen graphics at 60fps, true 1080p and AA will not look as impressive as 30fps sub 1080p with more detail/view distance/effects/actors on screen next gen games.

Devs will always go for the best looking game they can achieve, while maintaining 30 fps. Sure there will be some 60fps games, but that isn't a selling point to most people.

 

[Pimpbaa]

This isn't the point. Modern PC games don't use gigs of ram becaue they are also designed for consoles that have 512 megs of total system ram.

There are PC games that are PC only. Memory usage in those particular titles don't past 1 gig unless you are pushing excessive image quality enhancing effects.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

Why wouldn't Microsoft want to use BD? This makes no sense at all to me, passing on BD kills their ability to claim their console is a media center. Is it still the "SONY OWNS BLUE RAYZ" thing, because I'd hope we'd be beyond that by this point.

Sony and MS work together on many projects quite regularly and anyone suggesting (not that you are) MS won't go with bluray because their gaming divisions compete is just flat out wrong.
However unlikely it may be for MS not to choose Bluray (see media center point above), it won't be due to Sony owning a portion of Bluray.

 

[Hawk269]

Listen man, devs are always going to push the envelope. You're never going to get 60 fps constant because they're going to push the hardware until it gives them 30.

Really??? Call of Duty Games are 60fps, Forza 2, 3 & 4 were all 60fps. Why is it that it would not be possible with next-next gen hardware?

 

[[Nintex]]

Sony and MS work together on many projects quite regularly and anyone suggesting (not that you are) MS won't go with bluray because their gaming divisions compete is just flat out wrong.
However unlikely it may be for MS not to choose Bluray (see media center point above), it won't be due to Sony owning a portion of Bluray.

MS would actually love to beat Sony with Blu-Ray I think, they'd probably get off on it at board meetings.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Really??? Call of Duty Games are 60fps, Forza 2, 3 & 4 were all 60fps. Why is it that it would not be possible with next-next gen hardware?

He's talking all games. 60fps are more of an exception these days.


I buy the rumours, assuming it has some VRAM/ unified RAM. I still like the idea of a large amount of slower external ram + smaller fast unified ram if it's at all feasible, there's no reason to have 4gb of super fast RAM. You could have 2gb extra of appalingly slow RAM and it's still going to be better than what you can do with optical or magnetic streaming.

 

[eastmen]

There are PC games that are PC only. Memory usage in those particular titles don't past 1 gig unless you are pushing excessive image quality enhancing effects.

And this is due to what ? No one being able to ever take advantage of more than 1 gig . Or that fact that 2 gig cards just started showing up in 2010/11?


Games will come out that will fill the 2GB of ram in new graphics cards. You just have to give it time , those cards represent 1% of the market if even that much

 

[fuzzyreactor]

With all the talk of parts etc. All I really care about is that I get:

* 60fps constant
* Pure 1080p output
* Minimum 8xAA
* AnisFiltering x16

hahahaahaha

this guy serious?

 

[DopeyFish]

Really??? Call of Duty Games are 60fps, Forza 2, 3 & 4 were all 60fps. Why is it that it would not be possible with next-next gen hardware?

It's a design decision

Sometimes you just can't optimize everything when putting things on screen when you are pushing an enormous level of detail

It's not like a light switch

 

[eastmen]

Sony and MS work together on many projects quite regularly and anyone suggesting (not that you are) MS won't go with bluray because their gaming divisions compete is just flat out wrong.
However unlikely it may be for MS not to choose Bluray (see media center point above), it won't be due to Sony owning a portion of Bluray.

There are many valid reasons for MS choosing another format over Bluray


1) Pirating - If ms uses their own optical format it can be very hard for pirates to copy the data esp if its not readable in dvd or bluray drives.

2) Money - using their own tech they can charge devs more for acess to it. Right now you can go anywhere and press dvds for the 360 or blurays for the ps3 .

3) Speed - Bluray is quite slow maxing out at around 50MB/s for 12x (which is the maximum bluray will go and is quite loud ) and its seek times are horrible compared to flash and hardrives.

I'm sure there are others that people can come up with too.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

Will GTA on the next gen systems be able to provide cities which are TEEMING with people? As in, proper crowds? I want crowds of people, and lots of traffic. I want Times Square to be at a fucking standstill so that the only way I can go is by zipping in between cars and on the pavement like a motherfucker. And I want to do all of this at 60fps LOCKED. I don't give a fuck what you say, when Driver San Francisco can do it this gen at 60fps, then they can do it with waaaaay more crowds and traffic next gen at the same frame rate.

Exactly. My main disappoint during the first few years of this gen was that the games felt the same just with a nicer coat of paint. While I really believe gameplay always has, and always will take a back seat to graphics, I'd like to see the power being used not just for the pretty shiny things, but also for the immersion.

Next gen I want an open world game with a functioning city alive and brimming with people, business and it's own ecosystem. I want to go into every room in every building and I want to be able to blow the fuck out of everything leveling the city. I don't care if it has to have ps2 graphics to do this, I just want to see the world burn!

 

[DR3AM]

i think ms will go with BR because of BR movies not because of games. I know MS loves digital downloads but having a BR player build in would make customers only buy 1 system.

 

[verbum]

If you save $50 per month, by next November, you will have $600, enough for a console, a couple of games, an extra contoller, and some gas money.

 

[eastmen]

i think ms will go with BR because of BR movies not because of games. I know MS loves digital downloads but having a BR player build in would make customers only buy 1 system.

I'm interested in why you think this .


Bluray players can be had for $50 right now and are now entering the phase where they can be impulse purchases. Why would this be a big feature of consoles in 2012 ?

 

[DopeyFish]

And this is due to what ? No one being able to ever take advantage of more than 1 gig . Or that fact that 2 gig cards just started showing up in 2010/11?


Games will come out that will fill the 2GB of ram in new graphics cards. You just have to give it time , those cards represent 1% of the market if even that much

No. This is because creating high resolution art is very costly and FYI, the reason for the high memory amounts is due to what? Frame buffers and multiple displays (on top of the assets, and shader calc shit)

Do me a favor and calculate what a frame buffer size would be for 6 screens running at 1080p with 32 bit color, (+transparencies) with say... 4xAA and 16xAF

I'll wait here