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[blu]

Latency?

Cost? ;p

 

[Cutwolf]

I don't know nearly as much as some people here but...

It takes a pretty decent rig to run games that look better than the best of the console generation.

I'd imagine that games on this system will look at least as good as they do on the best PCs out today.

 

[duk]

how some of you guys are liking or disliking anything at the point is very funny

we know 5% of the truth maybe even less, who knows what each core is capable of?

let's wait and see

 

[duk]

CPU : IBM Power 710

- Architecture : IBM POWER7

- Cores : 6 Core

- Clockspeed : 3.72 GHz

GPU : Custom AMD Radeon HD Graphics

- Configuration : Single Die Dual Core

- Clockspeed : 750MHz

- Daughter Die : Renesas Electronics 100MB eDRAM

RAM : 2GB 512-Bit GDDR5 256GB/s (Unified Memory Architecture)


hmmmmmm

100 MB EDRAM = free AA with no impact. This would be a monster wait a second.... 256GB/s GDDR5??? LOL

edit: wait a second.... *looks at left pane*

well this is bullshit lol

What a crock. 100mb edram is a joke and so is the ram.

unless we are looking at 599 all over again

 

[Drkirby]

Ok, if they are using GDDR5 and eDRAM, the speed of those more then makes up for the smallish size. I would be disappointed if it was just 2GB of DDR3 Ram though.

A 6 core CPU really feels like overkill though, and a PowerPC CPU at that.

I know. My point is a 6-core POWER7 is just the 8-core with two cores disabled. Too much wasted die space for a console.

It is mainly to increase Yields early on, while it is unneeded die space, it can get the system on the market a lot faster.

 

[Van Owen]

The segaleaks site is trolling you all. Unless you also think a new sega console is around the corner.

 

[Hawk269]

Even so, I'd be very concerned about the price point of a hexcore system (much less one with a dual GPU). I mean, if we're talking about 2012 NO WAY I believe it. 2013? Maybe.

Why would one year difference make it beleivable? Are you referring to cost? If that is the case, you know they are going to eat the cost of this thing for the first year anyways. That is why I think it is possible for this year vs. 2013. Yes, it would be expensive, but if they can starte making money of hardware alone after 1 year, that would be a major win for MS. 1 year of eating cost of the unit, then prices go down on the components and they start turning a profit on the hardware in 2013.

 

[Lonely1]

100MB eDRAM
512-Bit GDDR5 256GB/s

 

[P90]

how some of you guys are liking or disliking anything at the point is very funny

we know 5% of the truth maybe even less, who knows what each core is capable of?

let's wait and see

These threads make for great reading now and quoting a few years later to browbeat the posters with wrong predictions. Viva NeoGAF!

 

[Proelite]

These threads make for great reading now and quoting a few years later to browbeat the posters with wrong predictions. Viva NeoGAF!

The Gaffer that I want to browbeat the most would be StevieP. He doesn't believe.

 

[Raistlin]

how some of you guys are liking or disliking anything at the point is very funny

we know 5% of the truth maybe even less, who knows what each core is capable of?

let's wait and see

...

What a crock. 100mb edram is a joke and so is the ram.

unless we are looking at 599 all over again

lol

Didn't even bother to edit?

It is mainly to increase Yields early on, while it is unneeded die space, it can get the system on the market a lot faster.

While this is a somewhat common practice on new die processes or for exotic/complex designs ... I don't think it's the case for the POWER7 series. I could be wrong, but it looks to be different parts - http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/rep_ca/0/897/ENUS111-170/ENUS111-170.PDF

The POWER7 line has been in mass production for a year or so, and is dedicated to the 45nm process which is quite mature. I'd be surprised if it requires redundancy for yields.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Last week, I picked up 16gbs of DDR3 ram from Newegg for $40 Shipped!

Yes it was a good deal, but this was the retail price! The whole sale cost on that ram was probably half that.

So each 4gb stick costs maybe $5 to produce and the cost of going from 2gb to 4gb would be $2.50. I see no reason to expect anything less than 4gb of ddr3 ram.

If they sell 50 million consoles over the console lifespan, even assuming the ram price doesn't drop further during this time, we're talking about an extra $125 million dollar investment.

That's well worth getting a leg up on competitors knowing that RAM has ALWAYS been the bottle neck for consoles, for every single generation, for the past 30 years.

The only way 2gbs would make sense is if they went with DDR5 or XDR.

 

[guek]

Last week, I picked up 16gbs of DDR3 ram from Newegg for $40 Shipped!

Yes it was a good deal, but this was the retail price! The whole sale cost on that ram was probably half that.

So each 4gb stick costs maybe $5 to produce and the cost of going from 2gb to 4gb would be $2.50. I see no reason to expect anything less than 4gb of ddr3 ram.

If they sell 50 million consoles over the console lifespan, even assuming the ram price doesn't drop further during this time, we're talking about an extra $125 million dollar investment.

That's well worth getting a leg up on competitors knowing that RAM has ALWAYS been the bottle neck for consoles, for every single generation, for the past 30 years.

The only way 2gbs would make sense is if they went with DDR5 or XDR.

are...are you being serious?

is this a joke post?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

are...are you being serious?

is this a joke post?

Well it is Stephen Colbert.

 

[Raistlin]

are...are you being serious?

is this a joke post?

don't feed

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Last week, I picked up 16gbs of DDR3 ram from Newegg for $40 Shipped!

Yes it was a good deal, but this was the retail price! The whole sale cost on that ram was probably half that.

So each 4gb stick costs maybe $5 to produce and the cost of going from 2gb to 4gb would be $2.50. I see no reason to expect anything less than 4gb of ddr3 ram.

If they sell 50 million consoles over the console lifespan, even assuming the ram price doesn't drop further during this time, we're talking about an extra $125 million dollar investment.

That's well worth getting a leg up on competitors knowing that RAM has ALWAYS been the bottle neck for consoles, for every single generation, for the past 30 years.

The only way 2gbs would make sense is if they went with DDR5 or XDR.

Lol you're back. Luckily for us BurntPork took over for you while you were away.

 

[Acheron]

Last week, I picked up 16gbs of DDR3 ram from Newegg for $40 Shipped!

Yes it was a good deal, but this was the retail price! The whole sale cost on that ram was probably half that.

So each 4gb stick costs maybe $5 to produce and the cost of going from 2gb to 4gb would be $2.50. I see no reason to expect anything less than 4gb of ddr3 ram.

If they sell 50 million consoles over the console lifespan, even assuming the ram price doesn't drop further during this time, we're talking about an extra $125 million dollar investment.

That's well worth getting a leg up on competitors knowing that RAM has ALWAYS been the bottle neck for consoles, for every single generation, for the past 30 years.

The only way 2gbs would make sense is if they went with DDR5 or XDR.

While I get the joke, I think repeated stupidity like these responses earlier in the thread (or the "OMG why is Tangled's budget so high?" should be grounds for the ban hammer.

 

[bgassassin]

It is mainly to increase Yields early on, while it is unneeded die space, it can get the system on the market a lot faster.

?

I'm confused how that relates to what I said.

Well it is Stephen Colbert.

See. We've had a few of those posts since last night and we could have rectified it, but nooooo. You had to resort to thievery.

 

[bangai-o]

it seems like pc gamers are more interested in this new console than 360 gamers.

 

[Raistlin]

?

I'm confused how that relates to what I said.

It's on a single die so it isn't much physical space. The reason it's done is to improve yields ... CELL did this (there's a redundant SPE).


That said, are you sure that's really the case with POWER7? I thought the 710 Express use different parts for the different core counts. I mean what is the 4-core variant? An 8-core with 4 redundant (unused) cores?

I wouldn't think that architecture has yield issues requiring redundancy. It's been in mass production for a while, and uses a mature die process (45nm).

 

[specialguy]

Last week, I picked up 16gbs of DDR3 ram from Newegg for $40 Shipped!

Yes it was a good deal, but this was the retail price! The whole sale cost on that ram was probably half that.

So each 4gb stick costs maybe $5 to produce and the cost of going from 2gb to 4gb would be $2.50. I see no reason to expect anything less than 4gb of ddr3 ram.

If they sell 50 million consoles over the console lifespan, even assuming the ram price doesn't drop further during this time, we're talking about an extra $125 million dollar investment.

That's well worth getting a leg up on competitors knowing that RAM has ALWAYS been the bottle neck for consoles, for every single generation, for the past 30 years.

The only way 2gbs would make sense is if they went with DDR5 or XDR.

Well, first of all you got a good deal, last I checked 16Gb of DDR3 was more like $80.

But the key thing is DDR3 just doesn't have near enough bandwidth to fit the bandwidth needs of a GPU. That's why it feeds the CPU in your PC.

For a unified memory pool like whats in Xbox, you'll need GDDR5 (if that will even work, there's countless issues). They dont sell that separate, but the difference between a 1GB and 2GB card on newegg are like 20 bucks. So, maybe $10 per GB wild guess wholesale? You start talking real money fast then in a 300-400 console budget.

You probably still have a bandwidth issue even with GDDR5, because if you use a 256 bit memory bus, it restricts how small/cheap you can ever shrink your GPU. So you're probably stuck with a 128 bit bus, which will leave you bandwidth starved even with GDDR5. That's where EDRAM might come in...

It's very very complex and there's a ton of factors. For example, motherboard complexity, number of RAM chips, etc, that we dont normally consider.

If you're looking at these alleged Xbox loop specs, which may or may not be completely fake, the main DDR3 would probably just be for caching and the like. The VRAM would be where the real speed is.

That said you might have a point, as long as they have DDR3 in these supposed specs, and it's so cheap, might be worth it to chuck a lot in there for caching. Then again, maybe having more cache than VRAM doesnt help much anyway so is a waste of $, I dont know. Also, DDR3 is cheap now, but the price might rise in a few years when it becomes obsolete on the desktop, so that's another factor why you might not go hog wild.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Yes I'm serious.

16gbs of ram for $40. It was a frontpage deal on slickdeals for a full day.

Given how cheap ram has gotten, there is no good reason for using 2gbs of ddr3 ram. Ideally, they will use much faster ram, but if not and they do go with ddr3, there is absolutely no excuse why it would be a paltry 2gbs.

 

[Shanadeus]

Yes I'm serious.

16gbs of ram for $40. It was a frontpage deal on slickdeals for a full day.

Given how cheap ram has gotten, there is no good reason for using 2gbs of ddr3 ram. Ideally, they will use much faster ram, but if not and they do go with ddr3, there is absolutely no excuse why it would be a paltry 2gbs.

There is:

They can make more money with a console with 2GB than a console with 16.

 

[clav]

Yes I'm serious.

16gbs of ram for $40. It was a frontpage deal on slickdeals for a full day.

Given how cheap ram has gotten, there is no good reason for using 2gbs of ddr3 ram. Ideally, they will use much faster ram, but if not and they do go with ddr3, there is absolutely no excuse why it would be a paltry 2gbs.

*facepalm*

The current 360 uses GDDR3.

It wouldn't be a stretch that the Loop will use better GDDR memory.

Why the hell do people troll this thread with computer comparisons (e.g. DDR3) when they're not applicable at all?

 

[Stephen Colbert]

You can make more money with more successful console with 4gbs of ram than you can with a less successful console with 2gbs of ram.

MS would have made less money if they stuck with 256gbs of ram as originally planned because their games would have looked like absolute trash compared to the likes of Uncharted 2/Killzone 2/GoW 3 and their sales would have suffered for it.

 

[bgassassin]

It's on a single die so it isn't much physical space. The reason it's done is to improve yields ... CELL did this (there's a redundant SPE).


That said, are you sure that's really the case with POWER7? I thought the 710 Express use different parts for the different core counts. I mean what is the 4-core variant? An 8-core with 4 redundant (unused) cores?

I wouldn't think that architecture has yield issues requiring redundancy. It's been in mass production for a while, and uses a mature die process (45nm).

To answer your question(s), yes. From what I remember the 4-core and 6-core versions of POWER7 are just the 8-core with disabled cores.

I'm sure you remember how the die shot looks. If we numbered the four columns of two cores 1-4 going left to right. Either 2 or 4 (can't remember which) is disabled for the 6-core while both 2 and 4 are disabled for the 4-core.

That's why the mentioning of yields threw me off because that's what the paper I found said was done (and it took a couple months to find an official one). In other words they don't make any other variation but the 8-core.

With the die size of the POWER7 being 567mm^2 and they only disable cores, I don't see a straight up POWER7 being used.

 

[specialguy]

Yes I'm serious.

16gbs of ram for $40. It was a frontpage deal on slickdeals for a full day.

Given how cheap ram has gotten, there is no good reason for using 2gbs of ddr3 ram. Ideally, they will use much faster ram, but if not and they do go with ddr3, there is absolutely no excuse why it would be a paltry 2gbs.

Once again, it's not in the topic title, but it's likely a 2GB DDR3 and 2GB GDDR5 VRAM scenario.

I agree with you to a point, as long as theyre using DDR3 and it's dirt cheap I'd chuck more in. But be aware it's not useful for graphics.

As I said, maybe there just isn't a lot of benefit to having vastly more DDR3 than VRAM, since the VRAM is where the bread is baked. So why bother? It would only raise your costs for little benefit.

I envision the DDR3 as a cache. Load your textures or what have you in before they go to VRAM, ease loading times, that's about it.

And again, PS3 and 360 use GDDR3. That stuffs pretty obsolete now, likely raising costs at least a little. DDR3 will be obsolete someday too...

 

[clav]

Once again, it's not in the topic title, but it's likely a 2GB DDR3 and 2GB GDDR5 VRAM scenario.

Why would MS branch away from unified memory pools when the past two Xboxes have used that architecture?

 

[hteng]

so what's the estimate cost and price tag this new machine would be?

are they going with the making a loss first and gain profit from games later type of thing?

 

[Raistlin]

To answer your question(s), yes. From what I remember the 4-core and 6-core versions of POWER7 are just the 8-core with disabled cores.

I'm sure you remember how the die shot looks. If we numbered the four columns of two cores 1-4 going left to right. Either 2 or 4 (can't remember which) is disabled for the 6-core while both 2 and 4 are disabled for the 4-core.

That's why the mentioning of yields threw me off because that's what the paper I found said was done (and it took a couple months to find an official one). In other words they don't make any other variation but the 8-core.

With the die size of the POWER7 being 567mm^2 and they only disable cores, I don't see a straight up POWER7 being used.

Aren't they priced accordingly though?

You're not losing transister budget or TDP to unused cores?

 

[specialguy]

Why would MS branch away from unified memory pools when the past two Xboxes have used that architecture?

I dont know. I'm not saying they are. But it's in the rumors that are the topic we're in. So I'm just speculating on if they were real.

Unless you're implying it will have DDR3 only, which is probably impossible. As I mentioned, even GDDR5 is pushing it and will likely require EDRAM.

EDRAM has it's own problems though, mind you. Besides costs, it doesn't work well with deferred rendering and generally robs you of programing flexibility. All equal it's better/simpler to go with GDDR5 and 256 bus unified pool, but that may be off the table because of 256 bus.

EDRAM is a very common feature in consoles for a reason, but again all equal you'd rather not have it.

 

[Shanadeus]

You can make more money with more successful console with 4gbs of ram than you can with a less successful console with 2gbs of ram.

MS would have made less money if they stuck with 256gbs of ram as originally planned because their games would have looked like absolute trash compared to the likes of Uncharted 2/Killzone 2/GoW 3 and their sales would have suffered for it.

Right, and that is an assumption you make after a generation that ended up with a victory for the absolute weakest console.
The 360 might have been even more successful if it could have launched at a lower price, and better looking games at the PS3 would have been a moot point (and who's to say that the PS3 wouldn't have ended up with 256GB of ram as well?) when it'd come with a much higher pricetag.

 

[Eteric Rice]

You can make more money with more successful console with 4gbs of ram than you can with a less successful console with 2gbs of ram.

MS would have made less money if they stuck with 256gbs of ram as originally planned because their games would have looked like absolute trash compared to the likes of Uncharted 2/Killzone 2/GoW 3 and their sales would have suffered for it.

16 gigs would probably cause heat issues.

People need to get over the idea that specs need to increase 100X every generation. It's not happening anymore.

 

[guek]

Yes I'm serious.

16gbs of ram for $40. It was a frontpage deal on slickdeals for a full day.

Given how cheap ram has gotten, there is no good reason for using 2gbs of ddr3 ram. Ideally, they will use much faster ram, but if not and they do go with ddr3, there is absolutely no excuse why it would be a paltry 2gbs.

are you under the impression that gddr and ddr are...the same thing?

 

[clav]

I dont know. I'm not saying they are. But it's in the rumors that are the topic we're in. So I'm just speculating on if they were real.

Unless you're implying it will have DDR3 only, which is probably impossible. As I mentioned, even GDDR5 is pushing it and will likely require EDRAM.

EDRAM has it's own problems though, mind you. Besides costs, it doesn't work well with deferred rendering and generally robs you of programing flexibility. All equal it's better/simpler to go with GDDR5 and 256 bus unified pool, but that may be off the table because of 256 bus.

EDRAM is a very common feature in consoles for a reason, but again all equal you'd rather not have it.

How did you come up with this conclusion or are you trolling?

I've only read positive things about EDRAM in consoles, so enlighten me with source links.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

16 gigs would probably cause heat issues.

People need to get over the idea that specs need to increase 100X every generation. It's not happening anymore.

Where the hell did I ask for 16gbs of ram. Reread my post.

My point is that ddr3 ram is cheap as fuck right now. The rumor says that the next Xbox uses 2gbs of ddr3 ram. I'm just pointing out that would be idiotic to do, given how cheap ram is.

No one is expecting specs to increase 100x. What we are expecting is that they follow moore's law.

Moore's law says that capabilities double every two years. So it's not unreasonable to ask that 7 years later, the consoles be 8 times more powerful.

 

[bgassassin]

Aren't they priced accordingly though?

You're not losing transister budget or TDP to unused cores?

Almost missed your edit.

I guess. I've never seen prices for the processors by themselves. Only the costs of the whole systems.

Here is a link for the 710 systems.

http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/power/hardware/710/browse_aix.html


I get the impression that the answer is no to the first part of the second question and I would assume the TDP drops. When we were discussing it before, blu estimated the TDP to be about 23w/core based on another paper about the chip. Honestly I can't really give a definitive answer to the second question with the info I got while learning about it.

 

[teh_pwn]

it's plausible. however GDDR5 doesn't exist in that speed afaik

that's operating at the same bandwidth as the EDRAM in the Xbox 360 (iirc) which would mean... this thing would absolutely slaughter PCs without blinking

For like 6 months maybe. PC engines will use ports of the next consoles, PC hardware will be updated and largely benefit from console R&D.

Moore's law says that capabilities double every two years. So it's not unreasonable to ask that 7 years later, the consoles be 8 times more powerful.

Every 18 months it doubles, and it has. It won't hold true in 20 years, but it did in the last 7 years, so 25.4x. Then consider software improvements. DX11 is more efficient at doing legacy DX functions by a lot if I recall.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Every 18 months it doubles, and it has. It won't hold true in 20 years, but it did in the last 7 years, so 25.4x. Then consider software improvements. DX11 is more efficient at doing legacy DX functions by a lot if I recall.

Exactly. Just following Moore's law (which has actually kept up being true for the past 7 years), the next gen should be 25x more powerful.

I'm not asking for that. I would be happy with systems 8-16x more powerful than the previous generation. But I would expect the memory to increase a reasonable amount as well.

And it's way too premature to declare that Moore's law won't hold true in 20 years. 20 years ago, no one was expecting that Moore's law would hold true till 2011 and desktops would be roughly 10,000x more powerful than they were in 1991 either.

 

[teh_pwn]

Frankly, it's madness. I mean, 6 core isn't even PC Standard yet. Traditionally there is a lag between consoles and PC gaming. I really, really really really really doubt this. It's nice wishful thinking though.

It's about to be standard. Speculation is that Ivy Bridge will be a modest improvement in performance per clock cycle, slightly higher clock frequencies, and i5/i7 moving to 6 cores. It's basically sandy shrunk to 22nm. The Sandy Bridge E stuff coming out is 6 core now, and AMD bulldozer is 8 core. And hell, PS3 is 8 core.

Keep in mind the next tick of Intel's release cycle will be replacing Ivy around the next console launches, and that will be a huge jump in performance.

 

[higherARC05]

About the 100mb of edram.

Would the dual gpu cores AMD is supplying require the large amount to split it in half. So that 100mb of edram is 50mb for each gpu.

 

[Angelus Errare]

It's about to be standard. Speculation is that Ivy Bridge will be a modest improvement in performance per clock cycle, slightly higher clock frequencies, and i5/i7 moving to 6 cores. It's basically sandy shrunk to 22nm. The Sandy Bridge E stuff coming out is 6 core now, and AMD bulldozer is 8 core. And hell, PS3 is 8 core.

Keep in mind the next tick of Intel's release cycle will be replacing Ivy around the next console launches, and that will be a huge jump in performance.

PS3 is 1 PPU 7 SPUs, SPUs aren't cores.

Yea I'm not going to do that .


I think your missing the fact that the art is already created at high resolution and is then reduced in quality for the consoles.

The art work is already being made. Costs would not be very costly they would barely move in terms of cost.

Not textures that's for damn sure.

/PC gamer

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

Yes I'm serious.

16gbs of ram for $40. It was a frontpage deal on slickdeals for a full day.

Given how cheap ram has gotten, there is no good reason for using 2gbs of ddr3 ram. Ideally, they will use much faster ram, but if not and they do go with ddr3, there is absolutely no excuse why it would be a paltry 2gbs.

dont you know console use mega special magical ram, that only console manufacturers can buy. And its mega expensive.

 

[Heppell]

So if this comes out next year with a 6 core CPU, does that mean the people who bought 2 gen Sandy Bridge CPU will basically be handicap as games will now be developed for 6 core CPU?

I was really hoping for 4 core processors :/

 

[alphaNoid]

So awesome! haha.. I love the pre next gen phase where the pie in the sky numbers start leaking. Would be awesome if these were true but the cost would be outrageous.

 

[iamshadowlark]

PS3 is 1 PPU 7 SPUs, SPUs aren't cores.



Not textures that's for damn sure.

/PC gamer

What are they then lol.

Each spu has its own cache and can run its own thread. Its a "core" in every sense of the word. Its only flaws are logical operations which you kind of have to put on the PPU.

 

[eastmen]

Where the hell did I ask for 16gbs of ram. Reread my post.

My point is that ddr3 ram is cheap as fuck right now. The rumor says that the next Xbox uses 2gbs of ddr3 ram. I'm just pointing out that would be idiotic to do, given how cheap ram is.

No one is expecting specs to increase 100x. What we are expecting is that they follow moore's law.

Moore's law says that capabilities double every two years. So it's not unreasonable to ask that 7 years later, the consoles be 8 times more powerful.

There wouldn't be much reason to use 8 gigs of ram for the system ram. DDR 3 is to slow for graphics and considering windows 8 fits in about 256 megs of ram then a next gen xbox running windows 8 would give it 1.7 gigs of free system ram for the cpu to acess . That is pretty much over kill . Couple it with 2 gigs of GDDR or XDR ram and then the gpu would have 2 gigs of ram for frame buffer and textures.

I would be quite a large jump over the 360 has .


The 360 has 512 megs of ram , the xbox next as i discribed has 4 gigs of ram. is a 8 gig upgrade.

I don't actually see a problem with these specs.

If anything you'd want them to do 2gigs ddr 3 and 4 gigs of vram .

 

[Thunder Monkey]

2 gigs of XDR as main unified system RAM, modern CPU, and 2010 low wattage GPU.

Boom! Next-gen Xbox that eclipses anything you see on the PC today. But like every console ever on release day, is nowhere near as brute force powered as a top of the line PC.

But then again they don't have to be.

 

[eastmen]

2 gigs of XDR as main unified system RAM, modern CPU, and 2010 low wattage GPU.

Boom! Next-gen Xbox that eclipses anything you see on the PC today. But like every console ever on release day, is nowhere near as brute force powered as a top of the line PC.

But then again they don't have to be.

why would they use a 2010 gpu ?


AMD already has 28nm gpu's in the pipe using a brand new design , they should be out in the next few months .


It would be silly for MS to go with anything less than this. Remember the xbox 360 recieved a fully custom chip from ati and i doubt they would give amd a 2 year old low end gpu.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

why would they use a 2010 gpu ?


AMD already has 28nm gpu's in the pipe using a brand new design , they should be out in the next few months .


It would be silly for MS to go with anything less than this. Remember the xbox 360 recieved a fully custom chip from ati and i doubt they would give amd a 2 year old low end gpu.

I was making a point.

You guys seem to want these console to stand up to the most beastly of beastly gaming computers. Consoles have never had to be in order to stand up to the best of PC's.

Something that "weak" would be able to produce a game at 1080p that eclipses the Witcher many times. But there's still a larger issue. Cost of development.

I never want an industry in which only EA and Activision have the money to push hardware. Thankfully I doubt I ever have to. The jumps will be more and more marginal with each passing generation. Tools need more of an improvement than hardware does.