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Rumor: Xbox 3 = 6-core CPU, 2GB of DDR3 Main RAM, 2 AMD GPUs w/ Unknown VRAM, At CES
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The Everyman
for real, on top of that it's been 7 years
That is what the edram will be for. They will probably put enough to do MRT so they can do deferred rendering at 1080p.
I'm not sure I know what MRT means but if it gets me 1080p and no jaggies I will be happy.
Crysis on PC near the beginning of this generation of console
PS3 & Xbox 360 memory specs are nowhere close to these specs but they survived 5 years after Crysis with 1/4 of the recommended ram to run Crysis.
Again PC RAM =/= Console RAM, the RAM for the PC is used for the OS and other things where as the RAM in the console is used for just games.
That and there's usually redundancies between the gpu and system ram (which is why unification negates dedicated gpu ram, especially if it's high speed)
that's the point, he is saying that 2GB main ram & 1GB of VRam might not be enough because BF3 use 1.3 GB of video ram now.
The image quality felt similar though the draw distance was better than U2. I think it's U3 that shows a ceiling for this gen for PS3 (and what a darn beautiful ceiling it is). That said, the devs can still tweak art design to make a different impact.
bgassassin
Member
Well let's clarify that the picture you posted is the graphics card, not the GPU.
The 6990 is just a dual 6970 on one PCB with slightly lower clocks.
And it looks like Proelite's speculation about the 6990 gained quite a bit of traction.
I think that's what some aren't realizing.
Except that's not true - and I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before. 1080p60 FP is already supported for single link under the HDMI 1.4 optional formats specification. The 3.4 Gbit/s max bandwidth of HDMI 1.3/1.4 has always been enough to do it.
The current issue is I'm not sure Silicon Image has released Tx/Rx cards clocked high enough to support it as yet. However I would expect them to be available for next gen.
The question then becomes what TV manufacturers will support it? You'll need to be in the market for a new high-endish TV in a year or two to get the initial ones. I'm probably waiting on a new TV for this very reason. Hopefully next or the following year's Sharp Elites support it. Then I'll sell a kidney and get one.
That's just it though ... BD3D is 1080p24 FP. Lot less bandwidth than 1080p60 FP. Current TV's don't support that.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
That's what I'm hoping for, DX12 as a baseline, plus features that don't go into AMD's 2012 PC GPUs.
While this true, remember PC system ram =/= Video Card Ram.
My PC has 4GB DDR2 (WOO!) system memory, but my video card has 1.3GB GDDR5 ram.
The ram we are talking about with Nextbox (GDDR5) is what current video cards use. With BF3 I'm talking about video memory usage at 1080P. This is my reasoning why 2GB GDDR5 with a lot of eDRAM would be a better option overall. Trying to think if I'm missing something in the equation, though.
Ps3 and 360 have near equivalent ram in amount, but the split pool on the ps3 makes it really less... Or at least less manageable
It would be rather pointless to go beyond 2 GB, 3 GB seems like it could be too much
Remember we are in a shader driven world
A 4x increase in ram where the following isn't likely to increase 4 times: sound and music data, program data and variables, operating system, character and world meshes
Some of those will see minor increases, but I highly doubt you'll see any of it more than double... This leaves likely more than 4x the texture data
People keep thinking in the way of basic game design, but it's all in shaders and effects that changes everything, NOT the amount of textures or poly detail
Smiles and Cries
Member
are people losing faith on the CES rumor already?
bgassassin
Member
Honestly it wasn't (or shouldn't have been considered) even a rumor. Thurrott guessed that CES would be the best time to do the reveal if it was launching in 2012. Things went from there.
1080p30 FP is also part of the optional spec IIRC.
As you stated, current HDMI clockspeed isn't an issue since 1080p60 (and 1080i60 3D) is already supported. However the question is whether the HDMI processor would know to sync to it, and whether the TV processors would know what to do with it.
If the answer is no (likely), you're really in the same situation - you'd need a new TV. Granted since it shouldn't be difficult to implement, we could see this on lower-end 3D models quite easily. I suppose some TV's could be firmware updated to support it depending on what is exposed for processing (I'd imagine most TV processors on better TV's are FPGA's so it's possible) ... but will they do and update from a business point of view? I'd imagine only a small percentage would bother even if they can.
One thing to consider is that since the bandwidth has always been there, why didn't Sony et all push for this in the 1.4a mandatory spec? That reasoning is important. If it was because they had reason to feel it wasn't a good solution (too disorienting?), then I can't imagine they'll change their minds. If it was simply because they didn't think current consoles could do it - then maybe they will push for it.
Again though, it most likely requires a new TV anyway (just maybe not a high-end).
I understand, however, my curiousity was hardware based. I wonder if Sony will follow suit with regards to amount of RAM for the sake of parity with PS4 or in the case if PS4 is planned to have more will MS follow them changing the specs before production...
If you're using GDDR5 (particularly if it's clocked high) ... what's the advantage of using eDRAM on the GPU? For example, Hynix Semiconductor has a design for memory that offers as much bandwidth as 360's eDRAM. Why pay for the same speed twice?
Now let's say they go with slower video RAM since they have eDRAM - why on earth would they use 150MB? To what end? That's way more than needed for 1080p with several effects buffers. I can't imagine the costs.
Unless people have no common sense (quite possible) ... it actually should be helpful.
People have no problem replacing smartphones every 2 years and for and increasing population, tablets every 3 or so years (if not sooner for some). Given the life cycle of console, the amortized costs is far less.
If people get sticker shock due to up-front costs - they're fucking idiots with no concept of budgeting.
Six cores is a modest upgrade!?! Just how many were you expecting!?
Another point of contention: Why can't MS or Sony pack the latest tech and sell at a calculated and deliberate loss per console with production plans in place that yield an earlier opportunity to break even followed by profits. It's the same thing they did with this gen of consoles except this time the turn around period could be calculated to be much shorter.
Stop being reasonable! Quad GPUs! 200MBs of eDRAM each! Five different banks of eDRAM on the CPU! Three banks of different main memory types! Digital distribution only!
A 6990 is 700 dollars alone. Next year in 2012 it will be 500 dollars if we're lucky. Beyond that, the CPU + RAM + HDD, etc- will make the system cost a fuck ton. Your looking at an on average 800 dollar system in 2012 with an insane amount of heat and power issues.
This is why we all want our consoles in mid-late 2013. A 6990 equivalent can be reached at that time.
Fixed that for you.
Heh ... was about to post this
statham
Member
but thats retail prices, cost to make the card is way lower.
Parmenides
Banned
These two corporations masterfully manipulate the media,always ready to report on mindless rumors or wild speculations in order to get hits;the hardcore gaming community gets thrilled and starts treating rumors as facts,and as result no one talks about the Wii U, which is coming really soon,since they think something bigger is waiting just around the corner.
In reality, neither Microsoft nor Sony need or can afford to launch new hardware in the short-term, particularly when publishers are announcing loads of games for their current consoles,which remain unusually expensive.Microsoft has deep pockets but the Xbox business is another story.In fact, the 360 hasn't had a price drop in over 3 years and as result the PS3, which was labeled a sinking ship in 2008, is the best WW selling console of 2011.On the other hand Sony cannot afford to sell the PS3 below $249, for god's sake.
Proelite
Member
Heh ... was about to post this
MS probably can get a 5870 for less than $100 for a console part today.
fixed for even more awesome
Even so, that would eat up so much of the budget, and it doesn't matter because a 5870 would not be suitable for a console.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
You're basically making my point.
People are spending their money on smartphones and tablets at more frequent rates than they did 5-6 years ago.
That means less money for other things in a bad economy. Any stlystem releasing above $350 right now isn't going to sell well at all.
Aizu_Itsuko
Member
No.
As anyone who was there during the PS3's announcement and the following backlash the reason people were unhappy (and by unhappy I actually mean angry) was definely the price, not the games. The mediocre launch titles most systems have certainly didn't make gamers rush to the store to get their new shiny $599 piece of hardware, but the backlash and just plain hate? That was the price.
400 is pricey but, just like you, I'm willing to pay that at launch to get better hardware that will provide me better experiences, especially now that console gens last longer.
But $400 is not $600; that's a pretty big jump that will cost you market share.
After last gen, console manufacturers know that such a high price is a big "no no" at this point.
bgassassin
Member
Proelite
Member
It won't sell well regardless of the price due to supply constraints. They should price it so that it's maintains complete inventory depletion for first few months and pave the way for lots of subsequent price drops.
If they first 5 million units is going to sell out at reasonable price, why not price it at the highest reasonable price?
eastside49er
Member
I expect the price to be around $400 out the gate and I expect it to launch in late 2013. Wrap those numbers/date around your head tech heads and see what specs you get.
I doubt it. Price reductions come from yield improvements and die shrinks (though the latter can reset the former for a bit).
The problem here is the 5870 is a 2.15 billion transistor part with extra HW for busing, etc, and dual banks of RAM (requires redundant memory - ie. 2x). For reference, Xenos is 337 million when you include the eDRAM ... and that's before considering VRAM.
That's an absolutely HUGE card. I highly doubt a die shrink is enough to get it down to that price.
McHuj
Member
Depends how you define it. If you're talking about 5870 level of performance I wouldn't expect the console's GPU to be far off.
Anandtech estimated the 360's GPU at 90nm to be about 182mm^2.
If MS launches a new xbox with the same sized GPU, at 40nm they could fit around 1 billion transistors in the same die area. At 28nm, it would be around 2 billion transistors. The 5870 was about 2.1 billion transistors, so it's close.
Given appropriate optimizations for a console and a 28nm process, I think they could hit 5870 performance with a console GPU. The GPU manufacturing costs would be probably under $50 as well.
The PS3 with its initial sky high price tag not only survived but thrived through strategic price cuts and high quality exclusive and non-exclusive software line up. While I would not be paying $700 again for a console I can easily see myself and many others putting down at least $500 or $550 if the tech and software justify it. Let us not forget that these new consoles would be sold side by side with the old ones making development of most newer games far less risky.
Consoles, whose life span can be up to 10 years (as shown by PS2) depicts them as long term investments. As such, MS is already selling 360s for profit now and they also make money off of the games that are on its platform. Hence selling a new console with latest tech concurrently with 360 at a calculated loss with projected time to break even profit as I mentioned in my previous post isn't a fantasy.
We should be asking what can be made possible for next-gen with stream lined production procedures now available to companies to cut cost in the long run instead of settling for what companies tell us what we need.
If you aim for the stars perhaps you'll at least reach the moon.
Fuck yeah! I am a dreamer...
Consoles, whose life span can be up to 10 years (as shown by PS2) depicts them as long term investments. As such, MS is already selling 360s for profit now and they also make money off of the games that are on its platform. Hence selling a new console with latest tech concurrently with 360 at a calculated loss with projected time to break even profit as I mentioned in my previous post isn't a fantasy.
We should be asking what can be made possible for next-gen with stream lined production procedures now available to companies to cut cost in the long run instead of settling for what companies tell us what we need.
If you aim for the stars perhaps you'll at least reach the moon.
Fuck yeah! I am a dreamer...
Proelite
Member
Hmm. The 6870 is $200 part. I got confused there. Screw AMD and their messed up system.
Ah, I getcha ... though I disagree with the $350 price.
I don't know. Looking at the 7000 series leaks, such a card would cost $150-200, and even then it uses twice as much power as the card Xenos is most closely related to..
Proelite
Member
The AMD GPU is 262mm2 with the daughter Edram die.
We're talking 3 billion transistors here for a 28 nm part. (above 6970 performance levels).
It's not that simple though. We're still looking at more than twice the power consumption.
My bad too ... in my previous post my brain made me think the 5970 was being referenced (the dual GPU) since that would make more sense in the analogy.
That said, it's even worse than I thought ... the 5970 is actually 4.3 billion transistors lol
Proelite
Member
If it's twice the power consumption of Xenos, then it's doable in a console, since Xenos was around 50 - 60 Watts.
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