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Scottish government apparently preparing to demand new referendum
- Thread starter Royal_Phalanx
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Good for Scotland. No reason to not explore options to get off of a sinking ship.
BrokenFiction
Member
Yay for Scotland! Fuck the English.
I H8 Memes
Member
They'd be fools to go down with the UK.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Lord Frieza
Member
I like where this idea is going
GoldenEye 007
Member
Wasn't the original Scottish referendum done with the assumption/assurance that the U.K. would be in the EU?
I think the U.K. leaving is a valid cause for the Scots to try one again.
I think the U.K. leaving is a valid cause for the Scots to try one again.
gutter_trash
Banned
IMO, they should wait for Brexit to be fully a thing first.
Being premature could cost them a 2nd chance,
it's all about timing, and now it's too soon
Being premature could cost them a 2nd chance,
it's all about timing, and now it's too soon
Don't a lot of people suspect that Spain might try to block them from doing so as to not create precedent for Catalonia?
Garrett Hawke
Member
I still don't know how I feel about this.
I felt No the first time predominantly under the impression that we would stay in the EU. With oil prices where they are amongst other things it seemed like a bad idea to leave.
Oil prices haven't really stabilised and probably aren't going to now that the dump administration is throwing out environmental protection rules, so I don't know if we'll be any better off. Britain is going to be a mess post Brexit for a long time, but Scotland does still receive a lot of benefits being part of Britain. But at the same time, losing EU citizenship would be a huge blow, especially as we don't know what the new system for working abroad will be.
I felt No the first time predominantly under the impression that we would stay in the EU. With oil prices where they are amongst other things it seemed like a bad idea to leave.
Oil prices haven't really stabilised and probably aren't going to now that the dump administration is throwing out environmental protection rules, so I don't know if we'll be any better off. Britain is going to be a mess post Brexit for a long time, but Scotland does still receive a lot of benefits being part of Britain. But at the same time, losing EU citizenship would be a huge blow, especially as we don't know what the new system for working abroad will be.
I agree. Since we do have this life raft available, I think we should wait and see how fast the ship is sinking before we do anything. We can always leave the EU, witness what is happening, and then decide.
Bedameister
Member
We gladly invite you into the EU our scottish brethren.
electricshake
Member
I voted no last time but I would rather be part of the EU than the UK, so I'm torn. How easy would it be for an independent Scotland to join the EU, and how much would it cost us to leave the UK?
I am not against independence per se, but at the time of indy ref I didn't think it was worth it. But fuck Brexit, what a fucking joke. It angers me so much I have to pretend it isn't happening, otherwise I think I'd go mad.
I am not against independence per se, but at the time of indy ref I didn't think it was worth it. But fuck Brexit, what a fucking joke. It angers me so much I have to pretend it isn't happening, otherwise I think I'd go mad.
This.
I also disagree with GAF on birtain going to shit because of brexit. Now I think they fucked up big time by deciding to leave the EU but knowing the british and their history I have no doubt they'll find a way to recover from it.
lastplayed
Member
Good, get on with it!
I've always felt that England should be its own country again.
I've always felt that England should be its own country again.
gutter_trash
Banned
also they are better off negotiating with Westminster AFTER an election not BEFORE.
let the dust settle after the election and then deal with a fresh government that doesn't need to be on campaign mode .
It's unfortunate that it's all panning out this way. I'd of preferred the UK government to honor the Brexit vote, but push for single market access. But that is not looking likely from what I've seen from Theresa May on the issue. It doesn't help that the Corbyn lead opposition seems to be a complete lightweight on the issue. I'm not sure how much, or even if there has been much difference in public opinion on the independence issue. I guess it'll be a question of what do we want more, EU membership, or remaining in the union. I know my vote will remain the same as it was in 2014. Hope this shambolic pandering to the kippers was worth it.
JonnyDBrit
Member
That's the big one, yeah. That said, part of that was built in the premise of leaving a country that was already part of the EU, to then either retain or regain membership in the EU after independence. Scotland going independent from a country that is leaving or has left the EU can be framed as a different matter.
Mind, the irony of this is that the argument now would mostly invoke Brexit's twice over. Because economically, leaving the UK would not be an easy prospect for Scotland right now (indeed, it was difficult enough last time when oil prices were good), so the chief argument would be a matter of, well, sovereignty. Now, I'd say Scotland's grievances in this matter are far more legitimate - the EU referendum has rendered null and void one of NO's chief arguments - but it's still kinda funny to realise.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Expected but I hope it doesn't pass, polls have shown a (narrow) majority of Scots neither want the referendum or want to separate. Quite the economic harm among other things.
Northern Ireland is always treated delicately, but England and Scotland have such a well-defined, narrow border since 1482 that there could be a hard border if this ever came to pass, and indeed there would have to be if Scotland allowed EU free movement.
It would be a tremendous shame to lose over 300 years of partnership in Great Britain.
Wales and Northern Ireland would remain, with the latter at least for the time being. I don't think the Republic of Ireland would be willing to make the kind of compromises the Unionist majority in Northern Ireland would expect.
For example, would the Republic accept this flag as a compromise?
Not a chance.
It'd be crazy geographically for the UK to be the Southern 3/5th of Great Britain and the Northeasternmost 1/6th of Ireland, but that might come to pass. A United Kingdom is better for everyone though. While continental Europe was still bickering, the UK turned in the world's first superpower with its naval might and tremendous ability to function. Most of Ireland left in 1922, but a majority in the four remaining constituent countries has never wanted to end the union, and certainly not England, where it's a vocal but tiny minority.
Scotland was never conquered, Scotland uses Scots law, a unique legal system.
I felt that the case to leave wasn't adequately clear before - there were too many unanswered questions about what currency would be used, how the NHS would work, what happens with the military, etc. It was a case built on emotion without any real substantive basis.
This time there's a definite reason to leave and I think the referendum outcome would likely swing the other way. May will likely use every trick in the book to deny another vote on it though; in fact I'd be surprised if the UK ever sees another referendum in the foreseeable future.
England can go full V for Vendetta. England prevails.
I'm not sure of the timing, a lot of people don't like this Brexit thing but the shit hasn't hit the fan yet either and Sturgeon/SNP isn't exactly knocking it out the park in Scotland as the government in control, immigration is still a big issue for people even if Scotland looks to be quite welcoming. Going for a banner of stay in EU, Immigrants welcome would go down like a lead balloon these days, people are just too wary of it. Perhaps they might scrape 50% but is it worth the gamble unless they are certain to win.
I'm not sure of the timing, a lot of people don't like this Brexit thing but the shit hasn't hit the fan yet either and Sturgeon/SNP isn't exactly knocking it out the park in Scotland as the government in control, immigration is still a big issue for people even if Scotland looks to be quite welcoming. Going for a banner of stay in EU, Immigrants welcome would go down like a lead balloon these days, people are just too wary of it. Perhaps they might scrape 50% but is it worth the gamble unless they are certain to win.
Visualante2
Member
100 million a week for our Scottish NHS. Write it on a bus. It's in the bag.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
The difference is everyone knows that's not true. With North Sea Oil production/revenues in freefall, Scotland now gets transfers from Westminster like the other devolved nations.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/24/scottish-finances-worsen-fall-oil-revenues-15bn-deficit
Brexit and Scottish independence have the same negative, bullshit arguments and it's sad to see.
Scottish people showed in both referendums that they're smart as hell, it'd be disappointing if they threw that away out of spite
~10 percent difference in votes and you label England (and Wales) racist. There'll be economic difficulties coming up, but the strength of the UK's economy will still largely remain intact, ask any economist. It won't drag anyone down, whereas independence will, as Westminster would not cover deficits of an independent country.
Also, you do realise that many people voted independence/Brexit? Lots of right-wing independence types around, I assure you. That's why polls have shown that the dial hasn't really moved since 2014.
The thing is: when Brexit actually happens in 2019, it will be too late for Scotland to *remain* in the EU. They would have to (re)apply and then get every EU state to agree with their referendums etc. etc.
So the timing should be alright as long as the decision is made before that date.
Also: when the campaign starts, Scottish people will hopefully not listen to the lies of the Brexiteers, so basically England in this case. They all know what went down and what happened to each and every promise which was painted on busses. And they also know how May is handling the negotiation - she wants to bruteforce this thing without much input from anyone but her cabinet. This is not democratic and Scotland knows that, so I understand if they don't want to follow along.
funkystudent
Member
I think Scotland should do a second referendum. The situation has changed about as dramatically as it could have since the last one. And clearly Westminster doesnt give 2 fucks about the other countries in the Union.
BUT push come to shove I just dont think they will risk leaving the UK and maybe joining the EU down the road (because leaving the UK doesnt automatically mean Scotland can join EU) over sticking with the UK and seeing what happens.
BUT push come to shove I just dont think they will risk leaving the UK and maybe joining the EU down the road (because leaving the UK doesnt automatically mean Scotland can join EU) over sticking with the UK and seeing what happens.
Not to mention the so-called "vow" that David Cameron rowed back on within hours of Scotland voting to stay.
I hope Wales sees sense next. We've been royally fucked over by Brexit. So many promises made by the Leave campaign in regards to funding for Wales in order to secure the Welsh vote, rowed back on almost as soon as the Leave vote won. And then when Welsh MPs try to make amendments to the Article 50 bill to merely gain clarity on Wales' funding status (i.e. they want the Westminster Government to admit that Wales is about to be shafted), it was voted down by (mostly) English MPs. What a fucking disgrace. They hold us in utter contempt.
Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are regarded as little more than English colonies at this point, especially under Theresa May. The "Union" is a sham designed to enrich the South East at the expense of our countries natural resources and culture, and it's been this way for hundreds of years.
That said, from a strategic position, I think the SNP should wait. My reading of the mood from my brother who lives up there is there's not a huge appetite for yet another divisive referendum in Scotland just yet. And while I get that the Scottish Government wants to shield their country from harm as soon as possible, I think waiting for the Brexit negotiations to kick in (and seeing how overwhelmingly fucked we are) is key. And if (in some magical dreamland scenario) we're not going to be royally fucked, then Scotland would be better off staying with the UK for the time being anyway.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Not possible to leave the US, and even so, it'd be without the Canadian part.
Oh give me a fucking break. You have no knowledge of history or how government works. Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own legal systems, hardly oppressed.
Additionally, Wales, Northern Ireland, and Scotland all run budget deficits that is funded by the vast majority of taxpayers in England, without any complaints. Free prescriptions and better health services exist in the devolved nations, with few complaints from who funds that...
Hardly oppression.
SlickShoes
Member
I am all for this but I don't think anywhere near enough people have switched their viewpoint and there are a large amount of No voters than also match up with Leave the EU voters.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I cannot believe so many on here want to dissolve one of the world's few multinational states, while spouting unfounded bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_GVA_per_capita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countries_of_the_United_Kingdom_by_GVA_per_capita
MotionBlue
Member
Scotland has only ever wanted independence for the most part, but their aristocrats fucked up their colonialism attempts and sold out the country to Britain. Scotland won't survive as an independent country now.
It'd be crazy geographically for the UK to be the Southern 3/5th of Great Britain and the Northeasternmost 1/6th of Ireland, but that might come to pass. A United Kingdom is better for everyone though. While continental Europe was still bickering, the UK turned in the world's first superpower with its naval might and tremendous ability to function. Most of Ireland left in 1922, but a majority in the four remaining constituent countries has never wanted to end the union, and certainly not England, where it's a vocal but tiny minority.
Scotland was never conquered, Scotland uses Scots law, a unique legal system.
Even at the height of the british empire, France was doing just fine thank you very much.
funkystudent
Member
Hissing Sid
Member
Scotland will leave the Union when the average peep knows that it would be financially sustainable to do so and that medium to long term financial security and prosperity is at least probable.
Last time I looked that isn't right now.
The people of Scotland aren't stupid, they are well aware that ideology and re-runs of Braveheart won't put food on the table or a roof over their heads.
Why would anyone want the people of Scotland to be worse off? This isn't a fucking game!
Last time I looked that isn't right now.
The people of Scotland aren't stupid, they are well aware that ideology and re-runs of Braveheart won't put food on the table or a roof over their heads.
Why would anyone want the people of Scotland to be worse off? This isn't a fucking game!
Spoiled Milk
Banned
Ha! Knew it! Go Scotland go!
Whilst it's hypocritical, it's also kinda true...
Basically.
The UK would be better off in the EU and Scotland would be better off in the UK.
A little bit more than same amount of people wanted to dissolve one of the world's few democratic multinational unions while spouting unfounded bullshit
I mean, the vote was clear in Scotlands case. They voted remain and if England does not compromise with the EU and the access to the trade union or free movement, then Scotland would be cut out of the deal and its wish to remain would be torn up in the air like a worthless piece of paper. That's undemocratic to be sure and unfair.
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