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Not wanting to be dragged into the abyss by a racist, reactionary movement in England is the same as racism.
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London Mayor Sadiq Khan: nationalism can be as divisive as bigotry and racism
- Thread starter Audioboxer
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Royal_Phalanx
Member
Nice job fighting Brexit, dude. Not like your party is rolling over or anything. Normally I respect him, but not this time.
Audioboxer
Member
Partly, as I admit there was a bit more dream-like thinking in 2014. As in, it was more framed as an ideological battle, and more about feelings. Probably partly why it failed, but 45% was still enough to suggest shit up here was rather divided and at the very least the rUK would have to take note of some unhappiness in Scotland with business as usual. The EU factor probably helped sway some minds, which is why it is now a concern that shit said only 24 months ago is now completely out of the window as David Cameron and Co managed to fuck up our position in the EU, and the leave campaign got away with some cracking lies as remain utterly failed at dispelling them as bullshit. Probably due to Corbyn either being in favour of leave, or apathetic to really opposing it. With just a bit more effort I think more minds could have been kept on track in England for remain to win. Instead we had Boris Johnson airlifted in to spew some rhetoric and make a mockery of the conservative party, whilst Labour failed to really put the dagger in and sink many of the leave campaigners with the fishes.
The UK is in such a precarious and complex state, with so many politicians running around like headless chickens and the party with the biggest chance to offer opposition to the conservatives seemingly shooting in the dark and aimlessly trying to get back on track. Khan's got his own individualism and should be able to speak his mind, but one would think it would be best to run these thoughts past Corbyn before going to print. However, in saying that Corbyn is utterly useless as a leader. His own party keep stabbing him in the back. I like a lot of what the guy ideologically stands for, but he just simply isn't a leader and would be much better as a number 2. Kind of how like Salmond was a pretty shitty leader, and Sturgeon is doing a much better job than he could do. Labour need someone else in charge, and many of those enamoured by Corbyn need to quickly accept Corbyn can still work within the party as a number 2, or just a regular MP. There has to be someone else in the party better suited to lead.
stuminus3
Member
Wait... what in the fuck is this utter stupidity?
Show me ANY evidence that Scottish nationalism 'started off with discussing illegal immigrants' or any form of discrimination at all. If anything the people of Scotland are overwhelmingly AGAINST the sick rhetoric of the racist kiddie-fiddling pig fucking cunts in Westminster and the scumbag British press that support and protect them.
Also rolling my eyes at how leading liberal politicians are always considered 'opportunist' just because they run contrary to right wing ideologies. Same thing happens here in Canada. Pure nonsense.
That a despicable comparison to make. At every turn the SNP and independence movement in general have been progressive, pro immigration, pro LGBT, pro NHS.
His comments basically show up the fact that he believes Scotland is just a part of England which is a sadly common point of view. No understanding that we are truly a nation in a supposed union of equal nations. Nope we're just a region of England who's dissention is seen as unjust and hateful when all it really is is a nation wishing to not be ruled by people and parties absolutely no one there wants to be ruled by, because this union of nations is so lopsided to one's favour and not the other.
Democracy is a cruel joke in Scotland when you can vote overwhelmingly for a progressive party but ultimately via the UK government have the polar opposite party ultimately in charge of your destiny.
His comments basically show up the fact that he believes Scotland is just a part of England which is a sadly common point of view. No understanding that we are truly a nation in a supposed union of equal nations. Nope we're just a region of England who's dissention is seen as unjust and hateful when all it really is is a nation wishing to not be ruled by people and parties absolutely no one there wants to be ruled by, because this union of nations is so lopsided to one's favour and not the other.
Democracy is a cruel joke in Scotland when you can vote overwhelmingly for a progressive party but ultimately via the UK government have the polar opposite party ultimately in charge of your destiny.
I generally like Sadiq Khan as Mayor (He was my second choice in the vote, first was Sian Berry) but this comment just baffles me. At this moment of time Labour desperately needs to get it's head together with it's leading voices or it'll be brutalised like the Lib Dems were in 2015 if not worse by the different parties.
Their only bit of luck at the moment is with UKIP's seeming decline probably saving some of their seats, but the Tories are rising in their spots so that's bad.
Their only bit of luck at the moment is with UKIP's seeming decline probably saving some of their seats, but the Tories are rising in their spots so that's bad.
Audioboxer
Member
He's a million times better than Boris and has been openly inclusive for everyone (at a time when it is needed), hence why these remarks are lighting a fire under Labours ass. As always the SNP have been pretty open about working with Labour to tackle the Tories, but the fear of Scottish independence has Labour twitching too often. Ironically the best way for there to stand a chance of keeping the UK together would be an alliance with the SNP which would lead the Scottish people to thinking the Tories can actually be opposed, and we aren't heading for constant Tory reign. That would slowly chip away at some of the independence voters.
Meanwhile, all these remarks have done is cause the SNP party members to go off at Khan and Labour. Which then seeps through to Scottish voter public opinion. Labour playing themselves yet again. You cannot try and be the bad guys, when you're suppose to be the good guys. UKIP and some of the Tory MPs get away with rhetoric and stupid comments because that is what the voters love to hear. The majority have higher expectations from Labour MPs to stand above low-ball remarks.
It's impractical for a country to constantly run a referendum on its very makeup as quickly as a general election. How could a country practically survive a constant discussion about whether or not a constituent country should even be there? What national government would constantly entertain such a notion happily, even if it's peaceful? Nation states want to remain united as a general preference, and I would imagine there's a lot of fatigue in Westminster about this subject considering how much of a lift Brexit is.
Even if the 2014 referendum was fought when Britain was in the EU, that alone isn't going to be enough to just ask for a do-over (and as I recall, there was a lot of debate about how quickly Scotland could re-enter the Union after independence so let's not make this so black-and-white). Who cares what Sadiq Khan says? It's really about what Theresa May says and she seems totally uninterested in doing this over.
Even if the 2014 referendum was fought when Britain was in the EU, that alone isn't going to be enough to just ask for a do-over (and as I recall, there was a lot of debate about how quickly Scotland could re-enter the Union after independence so let's not make this so black-and-white). Who cares what Sadiq Khan says? It's really about what Theresa May says and she seems totally uninterested in doing this over.
JonnyDBrit
Member
He's a million times better than Boris and has been openly inclusive for everyone (at a time when it is needed), hence why these remarks are lighting a fire under Labours ass. As always the SNP have been pretty open about working with Labour to tackle the Tories, but the fear of Scottish independence has Labour twitching too often. Ironically the best way for there to stand a chance of keeping the UK together would be an alliance with the SNP which would lead the Scottish people to thinking the Tories can actually be opposed, and we aren't heading for constant Tory reign. That would slowly chip away at some of the independence voters.
Meanwhile, all these remarks have done is cause the SNP party members to go off at Khan and Labour. Which then seeps through to Scottish voter public opinion. Labour playing themselves yet again.
Is it sad that the main thing I know this guy for was his invocation of GTA as a sign of Scotland's strength in new industries? (I mean, he wasn't wrong, but it's the main thing that sticks in my mind)
But yeah, Khan's method here isn't really an argument for uniting the voting base, it's to try and not divide them. Which I mean, can work when people are on the fence, but when they're already on the other side, you have to actually convince them to come back. This is not that at all.
Audioboxer
Member
lol, Scotland does love to ride those GTA bucks. It's more about that tweet cause it is true. The conservatives did run some shady shit to oppose Khan, that were stood up against by many across the whole country, but yes, including the SNP. Which is why Khan's vague remarks about dividing based on race/background/religion are not going down well. As much as many oppose Scottish Independence and the SNP party itself, they do not campaign based upon racial/gender lines. The party itself was one of the first 50:50 gender parties, was part of the "gayest" political system around (if it isn't still the gayest), and of course many racial backgrounds are represented. The point being, attacking the SNP by association considering the makeup of their MPs is just a dumb move.
A very stupid comparison to make and Khan surely knows better, so he's just deliberatly spouting shite here.
No, you don't focus on that one part when he is comparing it to racism and Trump.
For context for those that don't know the independence movement (and the SNP) are pro immigration and during the Indy ref Scotland allowed EU nationals to vote.
No, you don't focus on that one part when he is comparing it to racism and Trump.
For context for those that don't know the independence movement (and the SNP) are pro immigration and during the Indy ref Scotland allowed EU nationals to vote.
Charles Brandon
Member
There is an element of anti-Englishness in Scottish nationalism.
RustyNails
Member
Wow OP, inflammatory title much? He simply said Nationalism can be as divisive as racism and other forms of bigotry, not that scottish nationalists are racists. Use Guardian as your source next time.
Sadiq Khan: nationalism can be as divisive as bigotry and racism
Sadiq Khan: nationalism can be as divisive as bigotry and racism
Not GAF. Some people on GAF. They are usual suspects.
To be fair, regardless of leader Labour aren't likely to win many seats in Scotland next election anyway. So...these comments don't really hurt his chances?
A pretty minor one, sure. The whole "Scots hate English" thing is a pretty old and dead stereotype at this point.
Scots hating English decisions being forced on us? Different.
Isn't that nationalism?
Audioboxer
Member
Says the exact same thing in your source? I'll ask again, what do you call anyone who tries to divide based on background, race or religion? Surely a racist, or bigot or xenophobe...
Take a look at social media to see how it is going down/being received.
Some on GAF should give this article from 2014 a quick skim (it's the Guardian for you as well!)
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...sm-british-westminster-class?CMP=share_btn_tw
RustyNails
Member
Thus proving my point that your title is inflammatory bullshit that Khan did not mean?
Who gives a flying fuuuuck about social media? Maybe your social media circle is a giant anti-Muslim circlejerk?
freeofgreed
Member
Yeah can't say I agree. I like Kahn but this is a bad comparison. I've always like how Scottish nationalism managed to avoid the racist pitfalls of all other national movements, and focus more on civic indepedence as oppossed to an ethnic one.
Riposte
Member
Only if you believe that the UK is of one culture or one "people". I think most people would disagree. Many Scots in particular believe they have their own culture different from at least England, even if they may also see advantages of sticking together.
Audioboxer
Member
This has absolutely nothing to do with Khan being a Muslim? What on earth are you talking about? Not one person has said anything to do with that. In fact, members of the SNP have politely reminded him they stood in support of him during the Tories trying to use his background/religion as a sniping point for the mayor campaign. As I posted above.
How is this
helping the situation?
There is no difference between Sturgeon and Farage? Between SNP voters and UKIP voters? Aren't a lot of SNP voters former Labour voters?
Who the hell is this statement helping? Is it really uniting anything?
RustyNails
Member
Dont deflect. Social media is not an excuse for your thread's title.
Audioboxer
Member
I'll say it again Rusty, not even on social media is anyone talking about him being a Muslim. I really don't know why you are fighting imaginary ghosts here.
Let's examine that particular statement:
This might be read as a judgment on the character of people who are typically racist and/or nationalistic. On that basis there's quite a lot of wriggle room in the quote for Kahn to state that he isn't talking about all nationalists, and such a comparison isn't entirely unfair - some Scottish nationalists are very antagonistic about the English - but making such a comparison is naturally going to be incendiary when read as relating to all nationalists.
It might also be read as an epistemological evaluation of the nature of nationalism as inherently divisive. I don't think that that's controversial - to divide one area from another by defining it in either ethnic, race or cultural terms must be as exclusive as it is inclusive. But, as others have pointed out, the vacuity of making such a statement is evident in Kahn's recourse to another, British-related brand of nationalism, which is functionally no different!
Scotland is a free country ffs.
I sympathise with Scottish independence, but they are not a fucking conquered country and to even imply they are like India or Pakistan fighting for their freedom is disgusting, ignorant and above all bloody stupid.
Scotland gets to vote. Scotland has MPs. Scotland is in every single way a free, democratic country. Unless you think that Lancashire is also conquered, or Wessex, or California?
PJV3
Member
I'm torn over the issue, I know there are positive reasons for Scottish independence but the are also unpleasant elements behind it.
I'd prefer if we could work a way forward together but I get why some want out, it's fookin complicated. Khan isn't being stupid when he speaks about the divisive nature of the situation.
I'd prefer if we could work a way forward together but I get why some want out, it's fookin complicated. Khan isn't being stupid when he speaks about the divisive nature of the situation.
RustyNails
Member
Dont bring up social media then. I dont give a fuck what idiots there are saying. Dont use it as a crutch for your inflammatory title by saying "but look at how social media is receiving the news!!".
I'm no Europeman but
Brexit was supposed to be about England taking control of whatever rights they'd hypothetically given up to to the EU, right?
And now Scotland seems to be thinking about independence more seriously than in a minute because of the negative fallout Brexit.
So for the mayor of London to disparage the notion of Scotland taking back whatver rights they've hypothetically given up by being part of the UK...
Ain't that like... hypocrisy?
Brexit was supposed to be about England taking control of whatever rights they'd hypothetically given up to to the EU, right?
And now Scotland seems to be thinking about independence more seriously than in a minute because of the negative fallout Brexit.
So for the mayor of London to disparage the notion of Scotland taking back whatver rights they've hypothetically given up by being part of the UK...
Ain't that like... hypocrisy?
Audioboxer
Member
But nothing about Scottish independence, even in 2014, was based upon race, religion or ethnicity. Hence why even a vague association to such remarks is sinking like a lead balloon.
The title was copied from the article. NeoGAF is a form of social media, in that people post comments about Khans remarks and it gives an idea of how they are being received. Again, I really don't know why you're trying to take this to an angle no one was talking about. I already said even all over the SNPs twitter profiles, sturgeon included, absolutely NO ONE is talking about Khan being a Muslim? What has that got to do with anything?
You can't accuse someone's social media of being Islamaphobic then accuse them of deflecting.
Especially when you keep making these accusations about his title being inflammatory when it's really just a condensed version of the quote from the article?
RustyNails
Member
He didnt go down to the SNP vs UKIP level? He just says nationalism in general is bad. Read the Guardian piece. He says Scotland and England share the same progressive values.
He wasn't accusing, he was pointing out people tend to have a social media that validates their own views.
Audioboxer
Member
In regards to Brexit quite apparently... not the case? Which lumps into the irony in these remarks when you're going after the country and MPs who were strongly in favour of an inclusive and united Europe.
Then who is talking about in that quote if not SNP? Is there another force, more extremist behind the push for Scottish independence?
As for England and Scotland sharing the same progressive values, isn't that heavily contradicted by the votes in the recent years?
RustyNails
Member
No, it was an example of saying social media cannot be trusted as a barometer. It could be skewed through whatever groups are running with misconstruing something he said. Every single fucking thing Obama said was skewed against him through the filter of racism on social media by the anti-Obama crowd. I wont say "look how social media is receiving Obama's words" when all of them were either skirting racism or bigotry or full on racists.
GeordieMark
Member
The SNP were behind Scottish independence when there was a real risk that it would mean they'd be out of the EU, and now the risk of being out of the EU is apparently a big factor in them wanting out of the UK. There is hypocrisy on both sides of this debate. Sturgeon is basically being an opportunist and making the most of the current upheaval to get what she would have wanted regardless of Brexit, and the UK government have given her all the ammo she needs.
RustyNails
Member
JonnyDBrit
Member
Not quite equivalent scenarios, owing to the difference in a risk of being out of the EU - however very probable that would be, given the general interpretation of the law and the issue of Spanish support (or lack thereof) - versus the now seeming guarantee, especially when one would have been voted for by the Scottish people for the Scottish people, where now they're gonna be dragged out against their will thanks to the English and Welsh.
Audioboxer
Member
Maybe it is you that needs to stop following racist social media accounts rather than accusing/projecting on me? You quite quickly went off on me about social media when the irony is the accounts I refer to are those now constantly retweeting and posting things such as this. Plenty of them and similar feelings all over Twitter.
or Sturgeon herself
The point being the association Khan has triggered is NOT going down well with progressive and inclusive Scottish thinkers who DID NOT campaign for independence based upon racial, religious or background links. Pretty much no one up here did/does. Which is why Labour trying to go after the SNP/Scottish voters for this only goes to further cause Scots to shake their heads.
You cannot just pluck Trump and Farage out of thin air and say, well, Scotland must be doing what all of these other people are doing, and not spend a little bit of time to think critically and see how inclusive our leading party and largely, our nation, actually is.
Even the Twitter accounts I've seen/follow who are being sarcastic still don't care about Khan being a Muslim, it's about what he has said/implied
HandsomeCharles
Member
"Brexit" was about the United kingdom separating from the EU. This (in theory) allows them to regain total control over lawmaking, immigration and would stop them from paying the EU membership fee (Along with many other things). Through leaving the EU it means that UK citizens would lose several rights, not gain.
Scotland already had an independence referendum, in which 55% of its population voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. A large part of the campaign for "remain" was that Scotland would lose its EU membership if it became independent, and would have to apply again. The application process can be vetoed by other member countries (Which, I feel, it very likely would. As there are other countries within the EU such as Spain that have similar subsidiary independence related issues and would not wish to give fuel to the independence flame).
One of the main reasons that Scottish independence has resurfaced is that the Scottish people overwhelmingly voted to stay in the EU, yet are now being dragged out due to the overall referendum result. This (obviously) means that the "Only way to stay in the EU" argument from the Scottish independence referendum is now void. It's not that its being taken "more seriously" now, it's just that more fuel has been added to the fire.
Also, it is the case that the majority of London also voted to stay in the EU too.
As for the "racist" aspect of it. I am sad to say that I have absolutely heard many people spout things such as "Fuck the English" or similar nationality-based insults, especially during the lead up to the Scottish Referendum. I don't think that the SNP are racist or bigoted, the exact opposite in-fact, but it is incredibly easy for nationalist agendas to attract the ignorant.
GeordieMark
Member
I understand the frustration as someone who lives in London and also would prefer to remain, so I can't really blame the Scots being more inclined to vote leave, especially after "better together". I just think Brexit is Sturgeon's dreams come true. I think she'd take independence over the EU any day given the choice and all the hand-wringing about Brexit is just about leveraging a golden opportunity given by the U.K. Government.
excelsiorlef
Member
Umm correct me if I'm wrong here but the London Khan speaks of and the London Sturgeon speaks of are not the same thing.
Khan speaks of London the actual city who yes voted to stay and is progressive.
The London Sturgeon likely speaks of is that of London as Capital City... it is another way of speaking about Parliament and of the British Government . In that sense it absolutely is a hotbed of conservatism.
Now maybe I'm wrong but that's how I read it.
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