Support NeoGAF

[Beefy]

"Police need to do better" isn't really a solution that leads to less rapists getting away with it.

"Women can warn other women after they get raped" is.

Well it is. If the police took rape more serious, brought in therapists, offered victim support for after the trial or what ever happens. Basically treated it as the victim is right until proven wrong, then far more rapists will be off the street.

Then have easily accessible websites that name and shame convicted rapists.

 

[Media]

Can you point to more than a handful of, "she's lying" posts?

There's a defense force for everything on GAF, even SS Nazis, so I'm not discounting that there are some people that would say, "she's lying." However, that doesn't make it a situation where the definitive knee-jerk reaction is, "she's lying."

If anything, a lot of people in this thread have been supportive of the private Facebook group.

If I wasn't on mobile, I'd point to a.lot of threads here where people would rather stand beside the accused than the victim .

 

[Seductivpancakes]

I really wish some of y'all in this thread SO PASSIONATE about how this is a horrible idea would channel some of that energy towards teaching men to not rape women. Given that one of out every six women in the US has been raped, you'd think that perhaps that's the bigger problem in society.

Preach.

People reading this thinking oh " It's wrong they're that" instead "it's wrong that itd their only option left".

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Can you point to more than a handful of, "she's lying" posts?

There's a defense force for everything on GAF, even SS Nazis, so I'm not discounting that there are some people that would say, "she's lying." However, that doesn't make it a situation where the definitive knee-jerk reaction is, "she's lying."

If anything, a lot of people in this thread have been supportive of the private Facebook group.

In this thread, many have focused far more on the very rare possibility that women will lie about rape. And in the other recent thread going with a rape case many of the guys in that thread immediately assumed the woman to be lying when there was absolutely no proof that she lied.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Also, I find it sketch as hell that most of the time the board is all "Fuck the cops!" and then when it comes to rape its all "Let the justice system handle it, if it doesn't work thems the brakes."

Well in most countries, police department are not linked to justice but to security or interior ministry. (No idea for the us though)
We are not in Judge Dredd yet.

 

[Mael]

Well it is. If the police took rape more serious, brought in therapists, offered victim support for after the trial or what ever happens. Basically treated it as the victim is right until proven wrong, then far more rapists will be off the street.

And we're not talking about the judiciary here.
But the police, they absolutely need to treat the victims like they are victims.
When someone lose his/her house to a fire you don't have the police being all suspicious to someone who just lost everything and going to live in the street after all.
how the fuck do we end up in a situation where we need to say this?

 

[ApharmdX]

Jesus Christ.

You guys, who will never be raped, are telling actual rape victims in this thread to shut the fuck up because some poor hypothetical person might get false accusations.

Again, I reported at 13. My rapist didn't have his life ruined. Even though he raped me more than once. Even though he was a god damned 50 year old man. Everyone stood up for him. No one believed me. He copped a plea for probation. Again, this is someone who raped a child for years. Had I put up a flyer saying "Don't let him watch your children." I'd be asshole.

Once again, even on progressive gaf, rape is the only thing where the kneejerk reaction is "Well, she's lying." or some other bullshit.

And then people ask why we don't fucking report.

I don't see a lot of posters who say this woman is lying. I don't think she's lying. Those bruises in that photo looking plenty damning even besides her statements in that article.

The system failed that victim and we need to fix the system.

 

[Sunster]

Can you point to more than a handful of, "she's lying" posts?

There's a defense force for everything on GAF, even SS Nazis, so I'm not discounting that there are some people that would say, "she's lying." However, that doesn't make it a situation where the definitive knee-jerk reaction is, "she's lying." So, it would make it more like your typical GAF post, where there's a wide range of reactions.

If anything, the initial kneejerk reaction in this thread was supportive of the private Facebook group.

the knee-jerk reaction and the reason this is an 11 page thread is people read op or just read the title and thought, "nope. women will just lie" "slippery slope"

 

[Beefy]

And we're not talking about the judiciary here.
But the police, they absolutely need to treat the victims like they are victims.
When someone lose his/her house to a fire you don't have the police being all suspicious to someone who just lost everything and going to live in the street after all.
how the fuck do we end up in a situation where we need to say this?

We are talking about stopping rapists, the police are part of this. The way victims are treated by police is disgusting. This is what stops many victims women and men from coming forward.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

I don't see a lot of posters who say this woman is lying. I don't think she's lying. Those bruises in that photo looking plenty damning even besides her statements in that article.

The system failed that victim and we need to fix the system.

We're talking about the obsessive ridiculous fear of false rape allegations that allows many men to discount the very real concerns and pain of women getting raped

 

[KingV]

It's not a perfect analogy but it's not horrible.

Being accused of being a rip-off is certainly not a trivial thing and can ruin your reputation, especially in trading circles.


There's no stigma against being a rip-off where you live? Okay...


So what are you saying exactly? That Media should shut up about her rape, or not?

Being publically accused of rape and not being able to conduct trades in GAF B/S/T (or whatever similar shit) are not even in the same universe in terms of negative connotation.

Spoiler

Of course the real question is can you be banned from GAF B/S/T and still become President. J/k

 

[FF Seraphim]

I mean it probably would fly in the US, considering we have some of the most lax free speech laws of any country in the world and very few accused rapists would actually want to sue anyone on the very likely chance that they did actually, you know, rape someone.

Stop assuming victims are lying!

AH... free speech does not protect people in libel civil suits.
If the man knows the case has no legging to stand on in court or the case does in fact go to court and he is found "not guilty" then he could potentially take her to court over defamation.
But that is just in the US, no idea how it works in Australia...

 

[benicillin]

Come on, you don't have to literally say "people will lie" to make it plainly obvious that thats what you're getting at. It's not fooling anyone.

 

[NoName999]

Once again, even on progressive gaf, rape is the only thing where the kneejerk reaction is "Well, she's lying." or some other bullshit.

"Anything to placate the sensitivity of white males" seem to be the liberal banner nowadays

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

What does that even mean.

It means the justice system is fucking awful for rape victims and the falsely accused. What are you trying to get from me?

 

[Sirpopopop]

If I wasn't on mobile, I'd point to a.lot of threads here where people would rather stand beside the accused than the victim .

I look forward to this post when you aren't on mobile. If you can prove me wrong, go for it.

In this thread, many have focused far more on the very rare possibility that women will lie about rape. And in the other recent thread going with a rape case many of the guys in that thread immediately assumed the woman to be lying when there was absolutely no proof that she lied.

Show me some posts? (For the we assume she's lying bit) I see a lot of accusations going out without proof.

 

[Mael]

We are talking about stopping rapists, the police are part of this. The way victims are treated by police is disgusting. This is what stops many victims women and men from coming forward.

That too.
Still the judiciary needs to still consider people innocent till proven guilty.
But the police? They could maybe start to consider victims like actual victims.
Fuck me, can you even imagine if all complaints sent to police were treated like that?
Murder? Nah the guy is faking it, he'll get up any minute now..

 

[Media]

We're talking about the obsessive ridiculous fear of false rape allegations that allows many men to discount the very real concerns and pain of women getting raped

I also love how everyone ignored most of that post and jumped right to "Woah now I didn't say the woman in the OP was lying!"

 

[guggnichso]

Jesus Christ.

You guys, who will never be raped, are telling actual rape victims in this thread to shut the fuck up because some poor hypothetical person might get false accusations.

But these people are NOT hypothetical. They are real, living people, and more often than not they are fucked by society anyway because they're PoC or someone else at the fringe of society.

And no one asked you to shut up. But supporting mob and vigilante justice is not the way to go, because innocents can and are caught in the crossfire. The way to go is to change a fucked up justice system.

No one wants to belittle your experiences or those of any other person regardless of gender, wo became had to endure such a devastating crime. But for heavens sake, due process is needed for every crime out there. If due process fails, it's a sign that the system fails, and then the system needs to be changed.

Organizing an internet mob (which might very well end up in becoming a real world mob) is NOT the way to go.

Edit: I say all of that as a citizen of a country where the police force doesn't consist of a bunch of thugs with no real training whatsoever.

 

[Beefy]

That too.
Still the judiciary needs to still consider people innocent till proven guilty.
But the police? They could maybe start to consider victims like actual victims.
Fuck me, can you even imagine if all complaints sent to police were treated like that?
Murder? Nah the guy is faking it, he'll get up any minute now..

In many cases you don't even get to talk to a therapist. When I reported being abused ( I am a guy) I was interviewed by a normal police dude. Not offered therapy or anything and made to feel like I was a liar. It's why I am so for a trained therapist being the person to interview a potential victim.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

But these people are NOT hypothetical. They are real, living people, and more often than not they are fucked by society anyway because they're PoC or someone else at the fringe of society.

And no one asked you to shut up. But supporting mob and vigilante justice is not the way to go, because innocents can and are caught in the crossfire. The way to go is to change a fucked up justice system.

No one wants to belittle your experiences or those of any other person regardless of gender, wo became had to endure such a devastating crime. But for heavens sake, due process is needed for every crime out there. If due process fails, it's a sign that the system fails, and then the system needs to be changed.

Organizing an internet mob (which might very well end up in becoming a real world mob) is NOT the way to go.

What is the way to go?

 

[Media]

But these people are NOT hypothetical. They are real, living people, and more often than not they are fucked by society anyway because they're PoC or someone else at the fringe of society.

And no one asked you to shut up. But supporting mob and vigilante justice is not the way to go, because innocents can and are caught in the crossfire. The way to go is to change a fucked up justice system.

No one wants to belittle your experiences or those of any other person regardless of gender, wo became had to endure such a devastating crime. But for heavens sake, due process is needed for every crime out there. If due process fails, it's a sign that the system fails, and then the system needs to be changed.

Organizing an internet mob (which might very well end up in becoming a real world mob) is NOT the way to go.

I am aware people get falsely accused. I am also aware it happens at the same rates as other crimes. This Facebook group, that exists for women who have already been raped, has yet to falsely accused again. Hence the hypothetical and why it's bullshit people are more worried about that than actual rape.

Rape victims are real too, and the people saying what is equivalent to being.falsely accused is worse than rape/letting a rapist rape again is fucking horrifying.

 

[Beefy]

We're talking about the obsessive ridiculous fear of false rape allegations that allows many men to discount the very real concerns and pain of women getting raped

Sadly in some cases being worried of being falsely accused is a real thing. Being a black dude I have been falsely accused many times before. I do not get the average white male being crazy worried though. Still being raped is far worse, but it doesn't stop the worry.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

I'm absolutely positive that if this was about a group of people making it their mission to out the names of companies and people that ripped them off the men in this thread would have no problems with it whatsoever.

 

[excelsiorlef]

It means the justice system is fucking awful for rape victims and the falsely accused. What are you trying to get from me?

To understand what you're point was because it sounded like you were saying rape convictions are easy to get.

And statistically the system is way worse for rape victims than falsely accused

 

[Media]

I'm absolutely positive that if this was about a group of people making it their mission to out the names of companies and people that ripped them off the men in this thread would have no problems with it whatsoever.

Or name women who falsely accused them. They'd be fine with that too.

 

[O Canada Our Home and Native Land]

In many cases you don't even get to talk to a therapist. When I reported being abused ( I am a guy) I was interviewed by a normal police dude. Not offered therapy or anything and made to feel like I was a liar. It's why I am so for a trained therapist being the person to interview a potential victim.

This is something that is very easy to convince politicians. Therapists should be part of the police force and deployed in cases where victims have ptsd or 911 calls regarding mental health.

 

[Beefy]

Or name women who falsely accused them. They'd be fine with that too.

Nah, I wouldn't say her name in public. Rather get past that shit.

 

[Alienfan]

Or name women who falsely accused them. They'd be fine with that too.

What would be wrong with that? If I was falsely accused of something I'd want everyone to know

 

[Professor Beef]

Shame away tbh. The system failed her, and it's not shocking to see people in this thread defend the system.

 

[Mael]

In many cases you don't even get to talk to a therapist. When I reported being abused ( I am a guy) I was interviewed by a normal police dude. Not offered therapy or anything and made to feel like I was a liar. It's why I am so for a trained therapist being the person to interview a potential victim.

The crazy stuffs is that a therapist would be better at catching a liar so it's counterproductive and a waste of everyone's time.
There's better ways to do this and we should be better than that.
You don't treat serious crimes like petty theft and police should absolutely do its job to make sure this never happens again (although you could say the complacency on display IS making sure the reporting never happens again).

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Nah, I wouldn't say her name in public. Rather get past that shit.

Plenty of guys in this and the other thread would say you should sue.

 

[Sunster]

This is something that is very easy to convince politicians. Therapists should be part of the police force and deployed in cases where victims have ptsd or 911 calls regarding mental health.

lol, you must not know murica'.

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

What would be wrong with that? If I was falsely accused of something I'd want everyone to know

Oh but what about the chance that the person who says the allegation is false is actually lying?

 

[Beefy]

Plenty of guys in this and the other thread would say you should sue.

That would make me have to face her again. I just wanted her out my wife after what she did. Until people have been through it many don't get how it effects you. I can't be assed to sue a girl who clearly needs help.

 

[guggnichso]

I am aware people get falsely accused. I am also aware it happens at the same rates as other crimes. This Facebook group, that exists for women who have already been raped, has yet to falsely accused again. Hence the hypothetical and why it's bullshit people are more worried about that than actual rape.

Please also see my edit. In the U.S. this all is very different, but still: My comment was not meant concerning this specific Facebook group, but any vigilante action.

Someone up there asked "what is the way to go", and in my opinion it is more training for the police force to sensibilize (if that word exists in english) them to rape and rape victims. More women in the police force. And much, much more training. A higher availability of rape kits, faster processing of rape kits, a change in the law so crimes against people have higher priority than crimes concerning property.

 

[Nepenthe]

But you were comparing one imperfect system with another imperfect system. Our laws have checks that hold people responsible. From the laws itself, to the defense attorneys, judges, lawmakers, elected officials, and police. There is no accountability in private channels on the internet. It's horrible how the justice system is failing rape victims, but to make more victims is irresponsible imo.

Maybe the media has been focusing on false accusations and how imperfect the justice system is, since I don't know any statistics offhand, but currently I feel the justice system is weighted heavily against the accused. The state is very powerful and depriving a person of a normal life through prisons and past convictions is a very scary thing. From what I've read and understand of the law, which is admittedly pathetic, I side with the idea that it is better to let a guilty person free then sending an innocent person to jail. So far I haven't been convinced otherwise, but I would be open to the opposite.

It isn't only rape criminals that are let free. There are murderers walking around that the justice system has failed to prosecute, jail, and rehabilitate. I've been a victim of property crimes several times which amounts to almost nothing compared to rape and murder, but I'm fairly sure the criminals haven't been caught and it is considered low-priority. I have received no justice should I look into vigilantism and seek justice on my own with no one to hold me accountable? What about family members who have lost someone to murder and the person they thought that did it was declared not guilty, what should they do? Where is the line between mob justice and a society of laws?

I really don't know what the rape victim in the op should do. If she wants to warns others of a serial rapist, she could go public and accuse him, but that has its own drawbacks. If she wants to warn her friends and social circle, which is an argument that has been used, I think that would be great. The problem with using the internet is anonymity and who knows who the accuser is and who knows who the audience is and how they will react. In a social circle you know the accuser, the accused, and person being told is known to the accuser, but even through all those conditions are met that still has drawbacks. So I really don't know. The justice system will always be imperfect. The only thing we can do is try to improve it through laws, elections, and education.

I hope what I wrote makes sense. Just so we're clear I'm not completely anti-vigilantism. Some of what I've typed is simply debate and doesn't necessarily reflect my views.

I'm comparing both systems because it's obvious that people are willing to settle for imperfections in one of these systems because they believe the benefits to them (men not being jailed that often for a rape accusation) outweighs the downsides for others (women are raped that much more). However, women aren't being given that same benefit of the doubt because the other system that is the subject of this thread makes men uncomfortable with the worst-case scenarios, because they've already rectified the horrible fact that it's better a rapist go free to rape another day than to see an innocent man be put in jail for rape through the acceptance of the American judicial system, and thus a system that shifts the balance more in favor of women is suddenly out of the question.

However, the ultimate point is women warning other women about potential rapists is not that different from any other system- state-sanctioned or otherwise- that doles out judgement to individuals for their presumed actions in terms of lacking recourse for those that slip through the cracks, and yet I don't see people saying countries should abolish their legal systems due to the inevitability of innocent people being killed. Hell, people balked at the last thread that occurred over the idea of doing away with policing entirely, because at the end of the day black bodies are the price to pay against the presumption of total anarchy and chaos that might occur if we don't have racist-ass police running around all willy-nilly.

Again, you yourself admittedly accept a system where men are more free to rape than not because you yourself have the security of said system that says society is better off that they're free to keep on raping than even one innocent man like you sits in jail. That is what "innocent until proven guilty" really is, an admittance that the system is flawed and that not jailing innocent people is the best case scenario if we can help it. Now, I myself also accept that system because I too like the idea of innocent until proven guilty as a general protection for me, but since I'm also a woman who's also stared down sexual assault before and understands this system is not to the benefit of me in my particular circumstance, I also accept the fan-made patch to this that is women telling others about the free rapists running around so they can avoid getting raped in a society that doesn't care that much about it even if the act of doing so can be abused by shitty people, which is no different from me accepting the American judicial system as a generally "good" thing to have even when it fucks up horrifically.

At the end of the day, this is ultimately all about what you're comfortable with based on how likely you are to be fucked over, and not necessarily about the sanctimony of the American justice system or any sort of consistency with regards to how innocent people fare. One is good for you because you're a man and thus you don't want to live in a system where men like yourself are more likely to get busted for false rape accusations.

 

[Mael]

Oh but what about the chance that the person who says the allegation is false is actually lying?

When are your ever going to see a criminal going "Yeah I did that shit I should go in jail for".
By nature, the word of an accused party means little and less.
That makes it tricky in a case of words against words but then again we tend to trust upstanding citizens more than lowlives so...

 

[Chococat]

http://www.rrsonline.org/?page_id=944

Reporting & Prosecution

• Only 13% of the sexual assault cases disclosed in the National Survey of Adolescents were reported to police, 6% to child protective services, 5% to school authorities, and 1.3% to other authorities. 86% of the sexual assaults went unreported.30
• In 2010, nationally only 50% of rapes/sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement.31
  [*] Only 2-8% of all sexual assault accusations reported to law enforcement turn out to be false. This is the same rate as other types of violent crimes.32
  [*] Misconceptions about false reporting have direct, negative consequences and may contribute to why many victims don’t report sexual assaults.33
• Nationally, of the rape and/or attempted rape reported to law enforcement in 2009, 41.2% resulted in an arrest.34
• There has been little or no change in the rates of prosecution of rape in the last two decades, and lack of prosecution allow serial rapists to run free.35

 

[Media]

Please also see my edit. In the U.S. this all is very different, but still: My comment was not meant concerning this specific Facebook group, but any vigilante action.

Someone up there asked "what is the way to go", and in my opinion it is more training for the police force to sensibilize (if that word exists in english) them to rape and rape victims. More women in the police force. And much, much more training. A higher availability of rape kits, faster processing of rape kits, a change in the law so crimes against people have higher priority than crimes concerning property.

We've been fighting for that for literally decades and nothing has happened. It's about as likely for reform on rape as it is for reform on killing unarmed black men in the US

 

[Ishan]

That will backfire soon enough. I understand her reasoning, but it is still wrong.

more or less this. We cant do trials on social media. fuck even the courts get it wrong (even tho lower rate than other things i read somewhere).

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Please also see my edit. In the U.S. this all is very different, but still: My comment was not meant concerning this specific Facebook group, but any vigilante action.

Someone up there asked "what is the way to go", and in my opinion it is more training for the police force to sensibilize (if that word exists in english) them to rape and rape victims. More women in the police force. And much, much more training. A higher availability of rape kits, faster processing of rape kits, a change in the law so crimes against people have higher priority than crimes concerning property.

Yes, yes. All that needs to be done. We all agree.

But, in the meantime, until this happens, women have no other recourses.

 

[Alienfan]

Oh but what about the chance that the person who says the allegation is false is actually lying?

Unless there's pretty damming evidence (like on this case) that the rapist was that person, then you'd end up in a situation supporting the victim, believing that they were raped, just not necessarily the identity of the rapist. A rapist can easily be misidentified, and it's possible both parties are telling the truth. I don't think it's an either or situation like people in this thread are painting it to be

 

[Snarky(HEART)]

Yes, yes. All that needs to be done. We all agree.

But, in the meantime, until this happens, women have no other recourses.

.

 

[archreaper93]

I don't agree with it, but we failed as a society to let it get to this point.

Yeah, this is how I feel.

 

[ApharmdX]

We're talking about the obsessive ridiculous fear of false rape allegations that allows many men to discount the very real concerns and pain of women getting raped

I posted some stats yesterday about how uncommon false rape accusations are. Yes, the fear of these is overblown. Yes, I do think that it sucks how men are sometimes more willing to identify with the rare cases of men who are falsely accused than with the many, many cases of rape victims whose accusers walk free.

I just don't think that mob justice solves these problems.

 

[guggnichso]

We've been fighting for that for literally decades and nothing has happened. It's about as likely for reform on rape as it is for reform on killing unarmed black men in the US

Yes, I get that, I really get that. And especially you, with your horrible experience, I get why you have the opinion of "fuck hypothetical falsely accused men because the percentage is really low", I get that. I also do not know how you in the U.S. can really change anything with your two party system. Where people couldn't even be motivated to vote for a women candidate when the opponent was fucking Trump. And your police force seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) not even a matter of your government, but a state or whatever thing.

It's a catastrophe, and an atrocity. I don't know what I would do in that situation. Two of my ex girlfriends were victims of rape, one at the age of nine didn't report it, because she still wanted to be friends with her cousin who was the rapist (and they still are extremely close in a really unhealthy relationship), the other one was raped by an assumed good friend, and he was sentenced to jail for several years.

But she still carries the emotional scares to this day.

But of course, there's always the question of "what can I do". And it's a fucking mess in the U.S. Trying to get through to your representatives seems like the only way to go, but they all - democrats and republicans alike - seem to hesitate when it's about reforming the police force. Also, your "alternative" parties seem to be a bunch of whackjobs. I don't know. A grassroots movement at least worked for the tea party assholes, but can the left be arsed to go voting?

 

[excelsiorlef]

This not existing doesn't stop people from making false rape accusations.

This existing will save at least one woman (and probably a whole lot more than one) from getting raped

 

[Sunster]

I posted some stats yesterday about how uncommon false rape accusations are. Yes, the fear of these is overblown. Yes, I do think that it sucks how men are sometimes more willing to identify with the rare cases of men who are falsely accused than with the many, many cases of rape victims whose accusers walk free.

I just don't think that mob justice solves these problems.

but it actually warns other potential victims. like, immediately.

 

[Beefy]

I bet this gets shut down. But all the paedo shit stays up