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[akira28]

Make a law against all false accusations

Done.

 

[marrec]

You don't fix underreporting of rape by sabotaging the justice system. That's completely absurd.

Focus on eliminating rape culture and encouraging women to come forward in rape cases, but sorry if I think it's totally bullshit to abandon the key tenet of our justice system in order to make women feel safe about coming forward.

By making a law specifically targeting false accusations of rape you're sabotaging the justice system.

 

[Onemic]

I'd probably still be against targeting rape specifically yes, because I'd feel it was a step backwards. See above, make a broad law that encompasses all false accusations.

That makes no sense. If there is no rape culture, why would you still be against the prosecution of framing someone? It's not targeting rape when framing someone for something they didn't do is the crime. (Well I guess it is, but not in the way you're implying)

 

[The Awesomest]

The problem, as I understand it, is that to say a woman 'Cried Rape' is to not only associate women with the act of crying, but also to demean the accusation of rape itself. It is, as many have already pointed out, loaded language. Women 'cry rape' when they are either 'sluts' or just 'looking for attention'. If we were to say that she falsely accused someone of rape then it's clear the legal proceedings have already taken place and she has eventually proven herself a liar. It's not biased at all and actually describes what happened in this context. In fact, a more accurate description would be 'Woman falsely accuses man of rape who is then wrongly convicted'.

I feel like you're unfamiliar with what we mean when we say 'cried rape.' Crying can mean saying something really loudly. Not the one with the tear glands and sobbing. Look at this!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_who_cried_wolf

Replace "wolf" with "rape". Raising a false alarm. That is what we mean.

EDIT whoa, should've read the thread

 

[cdyhybrid]

You're saying this from a position of not having to be in the situation. There is a reason rape is under-reported in America and if you increase the amount of negativity in someones mind about the accusation of rape then it will just increase.

Make a law against all false accusations if you want, but don't target rape unless you want the number of victims coming out to decrease even further.



I'd probably still be against targeting rape specifically yes, because I'd feel it was a step backwards. See above, make a broad law that encompasses all false accusations.

I'll ask you one last time, please answer this question:

If, hypothetically, you were a woman who was raped - what evidence would exist that would make you coming forward possibly result in you being charged with a false accusation?

 

[Reuenthal]

I guess the lesson from this thread is that you will find people ready to trump the rights of people they perceive as insignificant (the man the thread is about) not only from the usual groups you would expect. Which proves that dangers to society and justice will continue existing even as we surpass some of the problems of the present.

By making a law specifically targeting false accusations of rape you're sabotaging the justice system.

I don't see why this is so complicated, false accusations not on rape alone but things like murder as well should bring a harsher punishment than a false accusation about something that is less severe and results in a less severe punishment. No it is not sabotaging the justice system to recognize something that is sufficiently terrible action to be the crime that it is. On the other hand there is clear injustice when it is not recognized.

 

[faceless007]

If they don't accept "He raped me" as enough evidence to convict of rape (which they shouldnt), then "she's falsely accusing me" shouldn't be enough evidence to convict of a false accusation.

But as you've been arguing the whole thread, obviously, "he raped me" is currently enough to convict of rape; that, after all, is what this entire thread is about and what has you and others so scared. It stands to reason that in lieu of physical evidence, "she's falsely accusing me" would under our current system have exactly the same danger, no?

 

[marrec]

I'll ask you one last time, please answer this question:

If, hypothetically, you were a woman who was raped - what evidence would exist that would make you coming forward possibly result in you being charged with a false accusation?

That's not the point, if everyone was completely reasonable when reporting rape then everyone would report without considering the implications of it. It's not about evidence, it's about the culture.

 

[KevinCow]

Man. This is such a fucked up situation, and I really wish there was a way to fix it.

Women shouldn't have the power to do this. Regardless of how often it actually happens, women have the power to get a guy sent to jail if they want to declare that consensual sex was rape. Whatever the reason, be it money like in this situation, spite, embarrassment, whatever, it is something that they can do, and that shouldn't happen.

On the other hand, actual rapists should absolutely be punished. But how do you do that? You need evidence, but what evidence is there besides his and her word? He's always going to say he didn't do it, she's always going to say she did do it. What's the evidence that separates real rape from falsely accused rape? So many rapes already go unreported, it would be terrible to scare even more women away from reporting it because the other guy might just get a really good lawyer that winds up making the victim look like a liar.

How can you possibly fix this?

Why can't people just not suck?

 

[Mumei]

"Crying wolf" is only used to refer to false allegations, not all allegations. Its point is to highlight how false claims lead to a lack of trust in real ones. The effect is certainly real and almost palpable on GAF.

I don't find your case convincing, because you've misunderstood what the term means or are referring to a completely different usage than is found in this thread.

See kame-sennin's post for what I was describing. I also linked to that topic, but I don't think ZAK noticed the hyperlinked text.

I am not referring to their meaning. I am referring to their usage. As I said to ZAK, this is not a debate about whether the strict meaning is true or about the etymology of the phrase.

 

[cdyhybrid]

You assume (or rather you expect rape victims to assume) law enforcement personnel will always be reasonable and treat rape accusations with gravity and seriousness, and not immediately dismiss women who come forward as just looking for attention or regretting the night before.

I don't know how much it happens, but it does happen, thus increasing the risk.

So your problem is with the law enforcement system taking rape claims seriously, not with a potential punishment for false accusation? If, hypothetically, the authorities acted appropriately and fairly in all cases, then a law punishing false accusations would be fine, correct?

 

[Angry Fork]

By making a law specifically targeting false accusations of rape you're sabotaging the justice system.

I think people are saying if you can prove it's a false accusation. If not then everyone just goes their separate ways with no punishment to anyone. In a case like this though where the woman recanted her story and admits she lied she should get automatic jail time imo, it shouldn't be left up to the victim to press charges/sue.

 

[faceless007]

I'll ask you one last time, please answer this question:

If, hypothetically, you were a woman who was raped - what evidence would exist that would make you coming forward possibly result in you being charged with a false accusation?

The arguably justifiable fear that law enforcement might see a professed rape victim as a slut looking for attention who should not be taken seriously, and moreover one who should be charged with false rape accusation just to teach her a lesson not to stir up trouble again.

So your problem is with the law enforcement system taking rape claims seriously, not with a potential punishment for false accusation? If, hypothetically, the authorities acted appropriately and fairly in all cases, then a law punishing false accusations would be fine, correct?

Well, of course. If law enforcement and investigation were perfect there'd be no reason to ever worry about innocents getting convicted anyway.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Man. This is such a fucked up situation, and I really wish there was a way to fix it.

Women shouldn't have the power to do this. Regardless of how often it actually happens, women have the power to get a guy sent to jail if they want to declare that consensual sex was rape. Whatever the reason, be it money like in this situation, spite, embarrassment, whatever, it is something that they can do, and that shouldn't happen.

On the other hand, actual rapists should absolutely be punished. But how do you do that? You need evidence, but what evidence is there besides his and her word? He's always going to say he didn't do it, she's always going to say she did do it. What's the evidence that separates real rape from falsely accused rape? So many rapes already go unreported, it would be terrible to scare even more women away from reporting it because the other guy might just get a really good lawyer that winds up making the victim look like a liar.

How can you possibly fix this?

Why can't people just not suck?

Signed and notarized pre-intercourse agreements showing that the sex is consensual will become necessary.

Thanks Dave chappelle

 

[ZAK]

This is precisely the problem with the term "cry rape"; it is used as a cudgel against women making allegations of rape "in general". And while you said that my example left you unconvinced, it speaks to precisely this sort of ignorance. In this case, it is you who are apparently unaware of how the term "cry rape" is loaded.

Indeed so, and it seems several other people in this thread are as well. Are we all a series of unlikely samples, or is it possible that in fact not all that many people actually understand the term "cry rape" in such a sense, and therefore its use really doesn't have much of an effect? I don't know the answer, just something to think about.

And I do want to clarify something for you about your comment about my explanation: This argument is not about the accuracy of the term "cry rape" (though it is less accurate than "made a false accusation of rape"); it is about how the way we talk about things impacts the way that we think about things. If you respond to what I said by saying "But it's accurate!" you haven't understood the argument.

Combined with what kame-sennin wrote, this almost makes sense to me. Let me be honest: that I don't understand it coming from you might also mean you're just not good at explaining it.

It seems like you have this idea that rape culture is "Joe hears someone make a fratboy joke. Joe hears someone say a girl cried rape. Joe now thinks he can rape."

In the case of the word "cry rape," the idea is simply that by creating an atmosphere in which every rape allegation is painted with the accusation of the term "cry rape" and it is assumed by a sizeable number of people that rape accusations are a fairly common or significant event, it makes it even less likely that there will be a conviction even if she does go to trial. It is not that the term "cry rape" does this alone; it is merely a part of a much larger emergent system that normalizes sexual assault of women.

And if one looks at the reality of rape in the United States - the rampant underreporting (e.g. 90,000 rapes in 2008; estimated 75,000 unreported rapes), the even lower likelihood that there will be an arrest (25% in 2008); this is precisely the sort of effect that rape culture is supposed to have. It makes it less likely that rapes will be reported and less likely that there will be an arrest in the first place. Given that the arrest rate alone is only 25%, even if the conviction rate were 100%, it would still mean that 3/4s of all rapes go unpunished. Do you think this makes it more or less likely that someone will rape? This isn't reliant on subtle connotations and mental effects. And once more, for emphasis: No one is saying that the term "cry rape" does this all on its lonesome. It's merely a small part of the Gordian knot, and we're actually giving it no more time than it deserves.

I know there's many pieces, that doesn't really affect what I'm saying. The fact is that you can't prove that any of those pieces are having any effect. Assuming there is an atmosphere where false accusations are thought to be common, can you prove this environment was caused or even influenced by some phrases people use? It's not that I completely deny this is the case, but you can't prove this with hard data or even examples. Meanwhile, I am asked to do an equivalent task when I present my own claims. I'm saying this is a ridiculous demand.

Rape culture is generally not about "big things." It is more about a lot of little individual attitudes and cultural ideas that together create a larger effect, an emergent system. Unfortunately this means that people who are not as well-versed in the subject of rape culture will tend to be dragged kicking and screaming on each individual issue, because they don't see how that single issue can cause all of rape culture (which it doesn't). So they will complain that it - whatever it is - is not relevant because they don't see the forest for the trees.

It's an unfortunate effect of the forum environment, I think, where I have realized over the years that many peoples' first impulse is to argue a position rather than to see if they have something to learn about a subject that they haven't done much to educate themselves about.

Okay, I concede that this is possible. Maybe there's some big picture here that I don't know about. How can I educate myself? How did you or anyone else come to know what causes rape culture? How do you know what these little things really are, or that it works that way at all? This might sound a bit salty, since I really am pretty incredulous. I am genuinely curious and would want to know the answer, though, so please give it.

 

[cdyhybrid]

But as you've been arguing the whole thread, obviously, "he raped me" is currently enough to convict of rape; that, after all, is what this entire thread is about and what has you and others so scared. It stands to reason that in lieu of physical evidence, "she's falsely accusing me" would under our current system have exactly the same danger, no?

Neither case should be acceptable. However, one person is ACTUALLY enough to convict someone of rape. This is reality, this happened. In the hypothetical situation, where one testimony is also enough to convict of rape, the false accusation law is there to reverse cases where the one testimony is false. It would require more than the one accused of rape to simply claim that he's being falsely accused. He would need a chat log, a recorded audio clip, some physical evidence that proves the accusation is false.

 

[Gaborn]

Man. This is such a fucked up situation, and I really wish there was a way to fix it.

Women shouldn't have the power to do this. Regardless of how often it actually happens, women have the power to get a guy sent to jail if they want to declare that consensual sex was rape. Whatever the reason, be it money like in this situation, spite, embarrassment, whatever, it is something that they can do, and that shouldn't happen.

On the other hand, actual rapists should absolutely be punished. But how do you do that? You need evidence, but what evidence is there besides his and her word? He's always going to say he didn't do it, she's always going to say she did do it. What's the evidence that separates real rape from falsely accused rape? So many rapes already go unreported, it would be terrible to scare even more women away from reporting it because the other guy might just get a really good lawyer that winds up making the victim look like a liar.

How can you possibly fix this?

Why can't people just not suck?

How about addressing the culture of rape in the first place? You're always for almost ANY crime going to have false reports or people that abuse the system, you're also going to have people that absolutely commit crimes but get away with them. But the best solution is to promote an atmosphere of respect for body integrity for all parties as well as mutual respect.

 

[ReBurn]

How about addressing the culture of rape in the first place? You're always for almost ANY crime going to have false reports or people that abuse the system, you're also going to have people that absolutely commit crimes but get away with them. But the best solution is to promote an atmosphere of respect for body integrity for all parties as well as mutual respect.

Is false accusation of rape a part of rape culture? It seems to me like it is.

 

[Htown]

The sad thing is, the law probably can't touch her for this. Even if there had been a trial, instead of a no contest plea, the statute of limitations for perjury is only 4 years in California.

Hope he sues the shit out of her.

 

[cdyhybrid]

That's not the point, if everyone was completely reasonable when reporting rape then everyone would report without considering the implications of it. It's not about evidence, it's about the culture.

Then your problem is with the justice system and the people running it not acting appropriately when handling rape cases. Not with a punishment for false accusations. If the authorities acted appropriately there would be zero risk of being convicted of false accusation if you weren't lying.

We're arguing for the same thing: for authories to be fair to everyone involved.

 

[kame-sennin]

"Crying wolf" is only used to refer to false allegations, not all allegations.

Untrue:

And the third is that the girls in Missoula are the type who "make shit up for attention." Girls "cry rape" in Missoula, say the girls of Missoula, who are often quicker to blame "sluts" for getting themselves into sketchy situations than are guys. I'm told over and over again that, thanks to the allegations that have surfaced over the past few months, more and more girls are blaming their post-hookup shame on the guys they — in the minds of so many of the Missoulians I meet — happily and carelessly took home the night before.

This creates a culture where rape accusations are dismissed out of hand:

Lacking any semblance of support, Kerry gave up trying to press charges. But shortly after Kerry went home with Gabe, her close friend was raped by a UM freshman who followed her into her dorm from the parking lot. Video surveillance shows the student following her into the building and then walking out alone 40 minutes later, carrying her pants, which he inexplicably stole. Afterwards, there were blood stains not only on her bedding but on her mattress, causing officials to ask if the girl had her period. She did not. Like Kerry, her friend was told that her case lacked sufficient evidence.

Kerry convinced her friend to take her case to the university, which ultimately expelled her alleged assailant – much to the chagrin of then-Chief Deputy County Attorney Kirsten Pabst LaCroix, who came to the academic hearing to testify on behalf of the student. LaCroix later told the Missoulian that, while she wouldn't comment on the hearing, "when we file sex charges against someone, it's going to ruin their life. Filing charges rings a bell that cannot be unrung."

Ali, who didn't realize she had been raped until she sought out counseling at the university health center, argues that so many rapes go unreported because victims want everything to "stay the same":

Female victims are afraid of hearing what others might think of them if the word gets out. We'd rather blame ourselves for the situation than believe our ‘friends' could ever do something like this to us. We'll shoulder the responsibility, chalk it up to a wild drunken adventure or just a bad night all around, and then forget about it. Pretend like we meant to do it so it becomes a part of our character. It lowers our self-esteem. We think we're only worth guys who treat us like that.

"The guys are rapists, but the girls want to get fucked," she says, over and over again.

I try to tell her that statistics say –

"I don't give a fuck about your statistics," she says, pounding the table for emphasis. "Things are different in Missoula. I'm not saying they're not rapists. But the girls help it along."

http://jezebel.com/5908472/my-weekend-in-americas-so+called-rape-capital

 

[Angry Fork]

Being seen as a rapist sex offender hurts you in society a lot more than being seen as a slut attention seeker. At least the latter can go to another city and start over. The former follows you for the rest of your life.

This is why the prison vs. rape thing keeps popping up and determines your outlook on this scenario imo. Would you be more angry at losing 5 years of your life and reputation for the rest of it or being raped? Which would haunt/follow you more? Both are fucked mentally but the prison one follows you legally as well and limits your ability to start over because of background checks.

 

[Gaborn]

Is false accusation of rape a part of rape culture? It seems to me like it is.

Sure, but I believe it was addressed earlier that false reports are a VERY small percentage of cases. The MUCH bigger issue is under reporting for fear that you'll be dismissed by people who won't believe you. Don't get me wrong, I am EXTREMELY sympathetic to people falsely accused of rape, I just also want that context clear. Yes, false reporting of any crime is a problem, but under reporting of rape due to the stigmatization and skepticism the crime still holds dwarfs the problem of false accusations.

 

[Slavik81]

See kame-sennin's post for what I was describing. I also linked to that topic, but I don't think ZAK noticed the hyperlinked text.

I am not referring to their meaning. I am referring to their usage. As I said to ZAK, this is not a debate about whether the strict meaning is true or about the etymology of the phrase.

It is not being against a survivor of sexual assault. You are arguing against a usage not found in this thread.

There's another problem with that post as well. This bit in particular, is completely untrue:

Using phrases like "the girl who cried rape" perpetuates the empirically false notion that false rape accusations are common.

The story of the boy who cried wolf was about one person who made a false claim and was no longer believed. It did not imply that lying was commonplace.

 

[Reuenthal]

Being seen as a rapist sex offender hurts you in society a lot more than being seen as a slut attention seeker. At least the latter can go to another city and start over. The former follows you for the rest of your life.

This is why the prison vs. rape thing keeps popping up and determines your outlook on this scenario imo. Would you be more angry at losing 5 years of your life and reputation for the rest of it or being raped? Which would haunt/follow you more? Both are fucked mentally but the prison one follows you legally as well and limits your ability to start over because of background checks.

I am not sure that I understand the reason for the comparison.And no it does not determine my outlook in this scenario and I don't think there is a wise point at comparing them. People who are falsely accused of being rapists deserve justice from the justice system and so do rape victims, what is worse does not enter into it, especially due to the fact that both are pretty fucking terrible.

 

[akira28]

Being seen as a rapist sex offender hurts you in society a lot more than being seen as a slut attention seeker. At least the latter can go to another city and start over. The former follows you for the rest of your life.

Getting raped fucks you up psychologically, messes with how you connect and interact with members of the opposite sex, that includes your male family members and children. And it can follow you for the rest of your life as well. Its the silent burden women get to bear. But when they weigh their social lives and the thoughts of others over their own well being and need for justice, it's like they pick up that heavy load themselves. A lot of people would be willing to help them, but they have to take the chance and have the courage too.

Sure, but I believe it was addressed earlier that false reports are a VERY small percentage of cases.

This case wouldn't have even made the list until after this man served his time and got a highly unlikely confession that he had to RECORD. And you have to wonder if the woman would confess again, now that the backlash is public. So I don't know how accurate that number is.

The odds of you getting raped yourself are far, far, far higher than the odds you'll be the "victim" of a false rape accusation.

I'm not sure I agree with this assumption. The wrong woman and the wrong situation for both of you, and a reason to lie or conceal or claim it was nonconsensual, and you're it. It's not like winning the lottery, 1 out of 300,000. If you think that, you're kidding yourself.

 

[Lambtron]

Being seen as a rapist sex offender hurts you in society a lot more than being seen as a slut attention seeker. At least the latter can go to another city and start over. The former follows you for the rest of your life.

This is why the prison vs. rape thing keeps popping up and determines your outlook on this scenario imo. Would you be more angry at losing 5 years of your life and reputation for the rest of it or being raped? Which would haunt/follow you more? Both are fucked mentally but the prison one follows you legally as well and limits your ability to start over because of background checks.

I don't think you fully appreciate how sexist our society is, nor how traumatic being raped is.

But I mean, whatever. The same song and dance gets trotted out every time there's a story like this. The odds of you getting raped yourself are far, far, far higher than the odds you'll be the "victim" of a false rape accusation.

 

[Slavik81]

Untrue:

Irrelevant. The "boy who cried wolf" refers to someone who makes false claims. The fact that they are applying it to those who may not be is unfortunate, but does not change the meaning of the phrase.

They may, in fact, be crying wolf over crying wolf.

 

[timetokill]

"victim" of a false rape accusation.

lol I guess this guy wasn't a real victim, huh?

 

[Gaborn]

This case wouldn't have even made the list until after the fact. So I don't know how accurate that number is.

You should look up statistics on under reporting compared to this. Although it's worth noting that "false" reporting statistics usually are actually inclusive of unfounded claims. That is, claims that might be true but cannot be proven or disproven.

 

[Chiggs]

What's really disconcerting is that stories like this are far more common than people want to believe. And when it's presented on a forum, the following usually happens:

1. Knee-jerk reactions accusing the poster of being some sort of women-hater.
2. Supportive posts by actual women-haters who try to fly under the radar.
3. Ensuing shitfest.

I'm friends with several people in law enforcement (anecdotal, I know) and when asked about this issue they have all responded with a comment along the lines of "far more common than you think."

It's unbelievably shitty behavior that demands severe punishment to serve notice to those who might try a stunt like this in order to get attention or money. It destroys lives and casts doubt on actual rape victims, perhaps causing those who haven't come forward to stay that way. Appalling on every level.

There was a Salon.com article published back in 2002 or 2003 about this issue, and it was quite a good read.

 

[Mumei]

It is not being against a survivor of sexual assault. You are arguing against a usage not found in this thread.

There's another problem with that post as well. This bit in particular, is completely untrue:

The story of the boy who cried wolf was about one person who made a false claim and was no longer believed. It did not imply that lying was commonplace.

We are not talking about this case or about the original story. We are talking about the way the phrase is commonly used in the real world to silence actual victims. This is a distinction that for some reason seems to be giving people a really difficult time.

 

[Lambtron]

lol I guess this guy wasn't a real victim, huh?

He got dealt a shitty hand for sure. But he really, really shouldn't have accepted the stupid plea bargain. If you were falsely accused of rape, the odds are just as low that you'd be accused if you actually raped someone. People always point to the Duke Lacrosse boys as poster children of the false rape claims. How bad are their lives now? Do you remember any of their names?

I think that this man had such terrible counsel is a much bigger problem than the specter of those evil, lying bitches people are so worried about.

 

[akira28]

You should look up statistics on under reporting compared to this. Although it's worth noting that "false" reporting statistics usually are actually inclusive of unfounded claims. That is, claims that might be true but cannot be proven or disproven.

But actual false claims, not 'claims that have been proven to be false' is still an unknown number.

I know it's a fact that actual number of rapes are underreported. That's not the issue being referenced here though.

 

[Gaborn]

But actual false claims, not 'claims that have been proven to be false' is still an unknown number.

Do you believe there is substantial reason to believe a substantial number of rape cases are based on false claims? If so, do you have any statistics to support this sentiment?

 

[Hydranockz]

We are not talking about this case or about the original story. We are talking about the way the phrase is commonly used in the real world to silence actual victims. This is a distinction that for some reason seems to be giving people a really difficult time.

You came in and said we were using it wrong. That's the difficult thing I am dealing with We were discussing this case, this thread. You're telling us 'cry rape' promotes rape culture, when right here, it is describing what happened. It's not loaded here. It doesn't endanger actual victims of rape. It is describing the actions of this woman in a thread about this woman.

Edit: That's not to say the term is never loaded. Of course it is. But here? I thought it was clear it wasn't degrading victims of rape at all. I'm going to bow out of this thread. I think there are wires getting crossed unnecessarily. I'm probably not helping that s I'm ust going to back out.

 

[Angry Fork]

I am not sure that I understand the reason for the comparison.And no it does not determine my outlook in this scenario and I don't think there is a wise point at comparing them. People who are falsely accused of being rapists deserve justice from the justice system and so do rape victims, what is worse does not enter into it, especially due to the fact that both are pretty fucking terrible.

It does when you have to decide what laws are in place to favor preserving innocence vs. punishing guilty.

I don't think you fully appreciate how sexist our society is, nor how traumatic being raped is.

But I mean, whatever. The same song and dance gets trotted out every time there's a story like this. The odds of you getting raped yourself are far, far, far higher than the odds you'll be the "victim" of a false rape accusation.

I've never been raped so I don't know how bad it is in terms of living with it (and it would likely differ person to person anyway) and I'm not a woman but I live in a big city and for that reason the idea of rampant sexism seems foreign to me (around me I mean, not in other countries obviously).

It seems like something that only continues to exist in small towns, the south and religious areas. If anything bible thumpers and social prudes have the strongest monopoly on sexism in this country so perhaps that should be scrutinized with as much force as well. Go after these towns/people rather than shit up the justice system and potentially put more innocent people in prison.

Getting raped fucks you up psychologically, messes with how you connect and interact with members of the opposite sex, that includes your male family members and children. And it can follow you for the rest of your life as well. Its the silent burden women get to bear. But when they weigh their social lives and the thoughts of others over their own well being and need for justice, it's like they pick up that heavy load themselves. A lot of people would be willing to help them, but they have to take the chance and have the courage too.

I completely understand that, but innocent people have to bear the heartbreak of knowing they lost 5-10 years of their life for something they didn't do. And on top of that they can't get proper jobs or new lives because they don't have the luxury of keeping it to themselves. Imagine if every time a raped woman applied for a job the employer knew when and where she was raped and she had to explain what happened? It's twice the nightmare.

 

[Mumei]

You came in and said we were using it wrong. That's the difficult thing I am dealing with We were discussing this case, this thread. You're telling us 'cry rape' promotes rape culture, when right here, it is describing what happened. It's not loaded here. It doesn't endanger actual victims of rape. It is describing the actions of this woman in a thread about this woman.

To the bolded: I didn't say that you were using it wrong incorrectly. I said you were wrong to use it.

And the term is loaded because of how it is used in general; that is what makes it loaded in this context.

 

[faceless007]

I think that this man had such terrible counsel is a much bigger problem than the specter of those evil, lying bitches people are so worried about.

I'd be curious to know if he had private counsel or a public defender. Public defenders are often overworked and less experienced and have too many cases, and often just pressure their clients to take plea deals.

 

[akira28]

Do you believe there is substantial reason to believe a substantial number of rape cases are based on false claims? If so, do you have any statistics to support this sentiment?

Depends on what substantial means to you, and how much value you place on statistics, which are useful many times, but not in every occasion are the decisive. I think the instances of false claims are substantial enough that someone should take steps to minimize their possibility, taking into account the truth of our social culture and it's mores in reference women's actions and expected roles, and its views on rape and sexual activity.

I completely understand that, but innocent people have to bear the heartbreak of knowing they lost 5-10 years of their life for something they didn't do. And on top of that they can't get proper jobs or new lives because they don't have the luxury of keeping it to themselves. Imagine if every time a raped woman applied for a job the employer knew when and where she was raped and she had to explain what happened? It's twice the nightmare.

I'm not willing to sacrifice one for the other. I'll not say that rape is equal to or less than sentencing for rape. Both are private hells unto themselves, and the crimes happen to innocent victims. The innocent victim, or the victim of a false accusation. Try being the woman who flinches every time a man she doesn't know looks her in the eye, and flashing back. Or even when it's a man she knows, like her husband, or her adult son. You can't compare the two and say one is less severe or worse than the other.

 

[Duki]

We aren't being proscriptive when we talk about the meaning of the words; we are being descriptive.



Well, you could just agree with us instead of arguing.

prescriptive

and

in fact

yes you are. right there in fact. the irony is hilarious

and no, because i disagree with you. your world view is neither self evidently correct, nor is it infallible. not everything is accurately viewed through an academic, feminist lense. yet you ask us to accept it because you read some blogs or some shit, and we're insane bigots for disagreeing with you.

it is so damn tiring to read, over, and over, and over again

in every thread

and the comical thing, in your self righteous egotism, you think you're actually somehow improving the world! by arguing about the definitions of words!

sigh

 

[Chiggs]

I'd be curious to know if he had private counsel or a public defender. Public defenders are often overworked and less experienced and have too many cases, and often just pressure their clients to take plea deals.

Excellent point. Public defenders often look to the path of least resistance in order to expedite things. Simply abysmal.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Really doesn't even sound like a plea "deal". A plea deal is when you know the sentence. His attorney said he would probably get 18 months. Sounds more like a throw yourself at the mercy of the court, and the judge gave him 5 years.

 

[Slavik81]

We are not talking about this case or about the original story. We are talking about the way the phrase is commonly used in the real world to silence actual victims. This is a distinction that for some reason seems to be giving people a really difficult time.

If that's all you're arguing, then I agree.

The bolded is probably because kame-sennin's post breaching the subject opened with a comment that implied the topic title was a problem.

 

[cdyhybrid]

He got dealt a shitty hand for sure. But he really, really shouldn't have accepted the stupid plea bargain. If you were falsely accused of rape, the odds are just as low that you'd be accused if you actually raped someone. People always point to the Duke Lacrosse boys as poster children of the false rape claims. How bad are their lives now? Do you remember any of their names?

I think that this man had such terrible counsel is a much bigger problem than the specter of those evil, lying bitches people are so worried about.

His lawyer obviously had reason to believe that his innocence possibly would not stand up if they went to trial. Two problems here, regardless of the lawyer's competency: 1) he would have to prove his innocence in the first place, which goes against the most basic tenet of our justice system, and 2) despite the fact that he was actually innocent, there would not be enough evidence to prove his innocence, because the court would possibly accept her testimony as enough evidence to convict.

If she (or anyone accusing someone of rape) would be required to provide more proof than their own testimony, the idea that it's safer to take the plea bargain would be illogical, because a false accuser would have zero evidence other than their testimony. This goes back to the root of the problem, which is that the authorities can/do convict someone of a crime without what should be appropriate evidence.

 

[akira28]

Really doesn't even sound like a plea "deal". A plea deal is when you know the sentence. His attorney said he would probably get 18 months. Sounds more like a throw yourself at the mercy of the court, and the judge gave him 5 years.

I wonder if it was a public defender. There was a big news story a couple years ago where they found that lots of public defenders seek plea deals for court cases because they are overloaded with cases and can't adequately defend them all, so they make wholesale transactions with the district attorney, where they plea for an expected lesser sentence so the court can get it's "speedy justice" and the criminal justice machinery keeps on chugging.

 

[Duki]

i just cant believe that out of everything there is to be angry in this thread

marrec and mumei found the term "cry rape"

to be the most objectionable thing

like that made them more angry than anything else

including the gross injustice

like how out of fucking whack can your priorities be

i am just baffled by your beliefs guys. just baffled.

just parroting on about rape culture, treating it as gospel... god what pointless, reductive, self-defeating rhetoric.

 

[cdyhybrid]

I wonder if it was a public defender. There was a big news story a couple years ago where they found that lots of public defenders seek plea deals for court cases because they are overloaded with cases and can't adequately defend them all, so they make wholesale transactions with the district attorney, where they plea for an expected lesser sentence so the court can get it's "speedy justice" and the criminal justice machinery keeps on chugging.

This would also be a huge problem and something that should be fixed.

 

[freenudemacusers]

duki is

your enter key

stuck

 

[Gaborn]

and no, because i disagree with you. your world view is neither self evidently correct, nor is it infallible. not everything is accurately viewed through an academic, feminist lense. yet you ask us to accept it because you read some blogs or some shit, and we're insane bigots for disagreeing with you.

it is so damn tiring to read, over, and over, and over again

in every thread

and the comical thing, in your self righteous egotism, you think you're actually somehow improving the world! by arguing about the definitions of words!

sigh

Whether or not you deserve that label, it does seem sort of silly to argue against statistics with the equivalent of "nuh-uh."