gunstarhero
Member
I immediately thought of this pain in the ass Gairaes boss - but wow, my memory had him MUCH bigger.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Shoot the Core! - Gaf Shoot em Up (aka Shooter/SHMUP) Reference Thread
- Thread starter fatty
- Start date
I immediately thought of this pain in the ass Gairaes boss - but wow, my memory had him MUCH bigger.
Remembrance
Member
This is one of three possible versions of stage 1 - in the two other versions the city is not destroyed.
This is all part of the game's branching paths structure, although I'd like to know how it will branch out before the first stage even starts...
Maybe I'm cynical but I've learned to be wary of euroshmups in the past. They look gorgeous and play like shit 99% of the time.
The game sure looks good though
I immediately thought of this pain in the ass Gairaes boss - but wow, my memory had him MUCH bigger.
Ahh, the dragon boss in Gaiares. I found him to be relatively easy.
SmiteOfHand
Member
Hope nobody minds if I go on a bit of a tanget, have just had a lot of thoughts on this and don't know of a better place to put them..
Giant Bomb started a new series called This is the Run playing Contra. It is unfortunately premium only, but the premise is simple. They attempt to play through Contra without using the Konami code. They give it one attempt, and if fail? That is it for the day. Try again next time. Not quite a 1CC since continues are fair game, but it is the closest I've seen to the idea from a bigger outlet. And while Contra is not a shmup, I think most reasonable people see Run and Gun as a cousin genre to shmups. At the very least they share a lot of arcade design heritage. Which is nice to see, but not what I am on about.
The thing I have noticed around it is comments where people will point out that Contra is not nearly as hard as they thought it was.
It has piqued my curiosity of wondering how many people never seriously attempted to beat Contra without the code, and how potentially damaging the code was to this approach to game design. To be clear, I am not trying to pin the downfall of arcade design on the Konami code. I do think it being in Contra and Gradius shaped those games, and by extension those genres, for many people on the console side.
I don't really have a point to make, just an observation. I hope they continue the series, and possibly even dip into playing some shmups as I think it has potential to cause some folks to reconsider long standing biases and misconceptions against these genres and this style of design.
In short: Bless you, Vinny & Dan.
Giant Bomb started a new series called This is the Run playing Contra. It is unfortunately premium only, but the premise is simple. They attempt to play through Contra without using the Konami code. They give it one attempt, and if fail? That is it for the day. Try again next time. Not quite a 1CC since continues are fair game, but it is the closest I've seen to the idea from a bigger outlet. And while Contra is not a shmup, I think most reasonable people see Run and Gun as a cousin genre to shmups. At the very least they share a lot of arcade design heritage. Which is nice to see, but not what I am on about.
The thing I have noticed around it is comments where people will point out that Contra is not nearly as hard as they thought it was.
It has piqued my curiosity of wondering how many people never seriously attempted to beat Contra without the code, and how potentially damaging the code was to this approach to game design. To be clear, I am not trying to pin the downfall of arcade design on the Konami code. I do think it being in Contra and Gradius shaped those games, and by extension those genres, for many people on the console side.
I don't really have a point to make, just an observation. I hope they continue the series, and possibly even dip into playing some shmups as I think it has potential to cause some folks to reconsider long standing biases and misconceptions against these genres and this style of design.
In short: Bless you, Vinny & Dan.
davidwhangchoi
Member
i never felt contra was hard, agreeing with the comments you posted. gradius on the other hand: i used the NES advantage slow-mo to beat that sucker in 5th grade.
NES Contra was never really hard, I'll say Contra 3 and Contra Hard Corps are far harder games and I beat both without ever using the Konami code (I didn't even know it existed).
I'd say that the original Ikari Warriors is way harder (and near unbeatable without its own cheat code, beein A B B A or something like that)
SmiteOfHand
Member
For sure. I think the thing about difficulty is it is one of those words that people can immediately attach their most negative connotations to. It is the whole idea that "I can't overcome this in one or two attempts, so it might as well take infinite attempts, I will never overcome it." Said another way, any difficulty is infinite difficulty.
There are totally some games, or sections/bosses of certain games, that are tuned unbelievably asshole hard. People will often assume that is the case before they've even really given it a shot.
Not to mention missing out on the whole zen of the run idea. I think a lot more people would be interested in improving their play of a section of a game if the knee-jerk reaction of repeating content = BAD was challenged. I understand people stress themselves out about failure and that stress obviously translates to having a bad experience. I just wish more could see you don't have to feel that way. Achieve calm and shit.
Remembrance
Member
If anything, the Konami code's impact would have been on the "go back and lose all powerups when you die" approach. And what was it used for in Gradius? To get powerups, because it didn't matter how many lives you had if you got stuck with no powerups too far into the game.
I think Gradius screwing you over so hard on death is a big reason why the modern approach of no restarting, and letting you keep or re-collect powerups, took off. And in the short term it made players happier, but in the longer term it may have "normalized" dying in arcade games and made people more content to credit-feed.
After all, all these years later Dark Souls showed that people will accept losing stuff and restarting on death if they still get a fair fighting chance.
SmiteOfHand
Member
Good points. To be fair, it took a lot of people a lot of convincing to really give Dark Souls a shot. I still shake my head some times in disbelief that it managed to breakthrough at all. Had things played out even a tiny bit different you can easily see it being another cult classic.
And not to be too grumpy on people, I do also strongly believe the game's themselves are just as responsible in presenting these ideas in appealing ways. Hitman is a very good example of this. Loads of Hitman games have come out, but then the dev finally figured out a way to present their ideas in a way that people understand, without really touching anything at the core, and it blows up.
Remembrance
Member
Hitman's accomplishment was reestablishing replayability in AAA games as a virtue. This, in a gen where games are increasingly built around disposable content, is remarkable. People came to understand that there is so much beneath the surface than what you see at first.
But even an AAA game based on disposable content tries to overwhelm you with sheer quantity, while shmups present themselves like just a small chunk of disposable content. We know there is depth to them, but even in the deepest shmup it's usually true that what you see the first time is all there is to see. (And once you master the game, just more scoring items pop out of enemies.) Where is the virtue in replaying?
And you can't necessarily go back to the Dark Souls model of restarting on death, because the game is so short that you're just forcing the player to squeeze out a half-hour experience incrementally in bursts of 15-30 seconds. You can't offer the reward of unlocking a new area or leveling up.
I'm looking forward to Xydonia because, with their branching stages, they can offer you previously locked-off paths as a reward for playing better. This might be the most achievable way for a short game to present itself in an appealing fashion.
SmiteOfHand
Member
Agreed. And if I had the answer obviously I'd be doing that. I do think it is a solvable problem. One angle is the games need to get better about surfacing your progress in a meaningful way. Not just a score in the corner. That is one of those things that is easy to say, but how you actually accomplish that is not so easy.
Personally the sense of improvement from run to run is what often keeps me going. I'd guess the same is true of many folks here. For whatever reason, probably from taste and preference, we have become highly tuned at identifying those improvements beyond "I made it farther this attempt." It is the details, the nitty-gritty of getting a tiny bit better, and seeing those tiny improvements stack over time.
I've used the instrument metaphor before and I think it is fitting. Learning to play a piano can be a frustrating experience where it feels like no progress is being made from one session to another. You don't have to look far to find someone who used to play such-and-such instrument in school, but only a few chords or whatever. But if you stick with an instrument and really learn to play a song, it is unlike anything else.
Whoever can figure out how to make micro-improvements to macro-reward compelling has found gold. People will grind RPGs and do all sorts of things in games that from observation look absolutely banal, but they love the zen of it, so I believe there is a way.
SOME-MIST
Member
Kinda yea. but then I think of item collection in dimahoo and figuring out ways to produce unique items or secret bosses and secret formations in armed police batrider like dream machine, bashinet, colosseum, night flight, gob robo, night view, etc..
TLBs that unlock only if you're good enough to meet the requirements in some cave games and so fourth.
Even finding something like rank max mode in battle garegga arrange is a very fulfilling treat once you can figure out how to trigger it. then it's almost like an entirely different game.
If it weren't already widely available online, figuring out the loop requirements to hit 2nd loop in progear would be another example of a hidden secret... ura path, hidden 1ups, etc
Remembrance
Member
You know, the instrument metaphor works very well because of not only the improvement aspect but the performance aspect. I have heard people talk about games as performance and self-expression before. Recently I found that I can't stop watching people's beginner runs of Hitman, because every single person expresses a different personality through this game.
This is mainly because there are so many different possible outcomes when you do anything in Hitman. That range of outcomes also allows improvements to be visible. In shmups, on the other hand, we kind of did away with "different outcomes" ever since Cave powered you up enough by default to kill everything on sight. Everything on screen will die but not before they flood it with bullets - always.
There are attempts at goals you can succeed or fail at: bosses that time out, bonus stages with special objectives, modes / loops / TLBs / secrets as mentioned above. But hidden mechanics (killing yourself to control rank comes to mind) are pretty far above the average player's ability to observe, and as soon as you mention "true final boss" most people file that under things they'll never be good enough to see.
So I still think, for example, stages could use different outcomes to show how well you did. Maybe you destroy an enemy wave and a building doesn't collapse. Maybe you destroy a boss part and it falls and crushes a bunch of enemies. Maybe a midstage boss timing out releases enemies that make the rest of the level harder. Revolver360 went some ways towards this by letting you unlock paths if you destroyed some objects under a time limit.
And when you talk about micro-improvements I have to think about whether the shooting itself could be an act of improvement. You really can't get wrong "hold down the shoot button", and getting dodging or bombing wrong just means you die. There could be more to it (again, in ways other than scoring)...
I mean, I think this is why Ikaruga was compelling when it came out: you could "get better" at shooting by improving your color-switching skills, and you could immediately see the difference in outcome. The mistake was making that mechanic so rigid as to leave no room for improvisation or expression.
SOME-MIST
Member
not necessarily. using a CAVE shmup as an example, dangun feveron (which is one of my favorites but surprisingly a lot of people dislike?) enemies are very fast to disappear off the screen. If the enemies disappear off the screen it delays the next wave to spawn.
on the other hand, if you clear the enemy waves fast enough, you start to spawn additional waves of enemies that weren't previously triggered. you technically want to try and kill the enemies before they even release bullets (which is your goal), and if they do release bullets, you need to be very careful to maneuver around the lightning quick spread - and in turn, doing so slows down your ability to destroy the next enemy wave.
then doing that on top of collecting discomen? I absolutely love the reaction time/reflexes required to play the game competently.
nailbombxx
Member
I need some help. I recently bought Danmaku Unlimited 2 for Steam and it will not work with my Hori RAP VX-SA 360 controller, partly. The game will recognize the buttons, but not the movement of the joystick! Its fully updated but still I can't get it to recognize the stick. Anything I can do? I only have one arcade stick sadly.
SOME-MIST
Member
Common issue. The developer knew about it but refused to/couldn't fix it. There's steam threads where the dev acknowledges it but he just disappeared. Best way to fix the issue is to download something like joy2key.
I also read that if you have a way to switch the stick's properties to dinput that the game will recognize the stick, but not sure if that's even possible with the vx-sa.
I spent very little time with it anyway. It felt a bit uninspired/cookie cutter, and after having to troubleshoot it for awhile with my ex-se I'm leaning towards skipping #3 altogether.
nailbombxx
Member
Thanks. I'll try setting up joy2key to switch my stick over to keyboard input.
The game itself is pretty fun but pretty meat and potatoes. Could really do with some different themes/backgrounds throughout the levels though.
SOME-MIST
Member
Np - as a heads up I only had to setup the stick input since the game recognized the buttons on my stick too.
DieNgamers
Member
When you are in the mood Danmaku 2 can be very satisfying. The bullet patterns are beautiful and especially in later stages really creative. The visual presentation is a matter of taste but as a game it's been quite the surprise.
Also I almost cleared Eachatos on east mode with my 2nd credit - the last boss, though...
I can see myself 1CC-ing that mode sooner or later. It's a shame you can't choose stages for practising.
Also I almost cleared Eachatos on east mode with my 2nd credit - the last boss, though...
I can see myself 1CC-ing that mode sooner or later. It's a shame you can't choose stages for practising.
These days you could use Steam Big Picture Mode's controller emulation layer. You might need to be in the Steam beta to use it, but using it you can do super-detailed per-game controller mapping without leaving Steam.
DieNgamers
Member
Hm...Maybe I can finally play Reflex (which doesn't register the 8 way movement of my Xbox360 analog stick) that way. I'll try this at home.
Man, just mentioning that game makes me want to fire it up today.
Edit: I might actually hit up Kamui instead.
nailbombxx
Member
Anyone hyped for any upcoming STGs in particular?
Me personally I'm looking forward to whatever Cave decides to port to Steam next, as long as it isn't Akai Katana (already have it for the 360!)
Me personally I'm looking forward to whatever Cave decides to port to Steam next, as long as it isn't Akai Katana (already have it for the 360!)
Dangun port. Definitely my most anticipated title. Also, excited about all the Burst DLC.
Brian_FETO
Banned
Wish M2 had an update on Ubusana. Otherwise hyped for whatever they or Cave manage to port next
nailbombxx
Member
Yotsuba probably got sidetracked with the game blowing up in popularity and focused on capitalizing off of it by updating it and releasing it everywhere, including arcades in Japan which is pretty damn awesome for a doujin shmup. Smart move.
EDIT: Regardless I'm really curious to see what he does next too. No doubt Crimzon Clover exceeded expectations for success. He and everyone else who developed CC have incredible talent - I consider CC to be one of the greatest STGs ever made. I hope Yotsubane can hit us with another masterpiece.
DieNgamers
Member
Yotsubane took a lot longer with Crimzon Clover. His motto has been to "finish the game, no matter what". He said it in an interview somewhere.
DieNgamers
Member
Ooops, double-post. Sorry guys! ;D
The option of controller emulation in Big Picture Mode worked for me! I have a 360 controller though. There's a page in settings with checkboxes (like "Xbox360 Support" etc.) I don't know what the other options were because I'm at work right now. Just activating it and unpluggin/plugging in my controller solved the problem. I had to adjust the button layout for "desktop use", though.
Hopefully this works with your arcade stick!
My first real experience I had with RefleX yesterday was a bit underwhelming compared to Alltynex 2nd or even Kamui. It feels a little flat but the main gimmick is charming, I have to admit.
Sound, music and maybe overall spectacle really add to games of the genre, I guess.
The option of controller emulation in Big Picture Mode worked for me! I have a 360 controller though. There's a page in settings with checkboxes (like "Xbox360 Support" etc.) I don't know what the other options were because I'm at work right now. Just activating it and unpluggin/plugging in my controller solved the problem. I had to adjust the button layout for "desktop use", though.
Hopefully this works with your arcade stick!
My first real experience I had with RefleX yesterday was a bit underwhelming compared to Alltynex 2nd or even Kamui. It feels a little flat but the main gimmick is charming, I have to admit.
Sound, music and maybe overall spectacle really add to games of the genre, I guess.
nailbombxx
Member
Joy2key works like a charm for me as of right now but I'll try that in Steam just so I don't have to pull Joy2key up everytime I decide to play Danmaku Unlimited. Thanks!
https://www.gamefaqs.com/x68000/930927-nemesis-90-kai/reviews/102526
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8B4Hkucs10
I know what shmup I'm playing tonight
DieNgamers
Member
Do you like the game so far? I think the music really fits the action (especially that boss theme) even though I'm not a Djent or Drum'n'Bass fan at all. Are there smiliar games in terms of pattern creativity? There were several moments later in the game that had me go "oh, I see what you did there, game!".
I'm also very slowly crawling my way through Raiden IV. The games becomes so hard after a few stages, phew! It's so well made, though!
ThePeoplesBureau
Member
Even if this disc release is technically region-free, I'm not sure what this means for the DLC... unless it includes all of it on disc (prediction: unlikely)
davidwhangchoi
Member
Even if this disc release is technically region-free, I'm not sure what this means for the DLC... unless it includes all of it on disc (prediction: unlikely)
damn if i would have known i wouldn't have brought it on steam. i like physical copies of shooters
sixteen-bit
Member
They already confirmed that the DLC won't be included.
shaowebb
Member
ThePeoplesBureau
Member
Didn't see, thanks.
Serious question:
Has anyone been able to make a Japanese PSN account, purchase Salamander Portable for PSP and play it on PS Vita? Either directly, or by downloading it to PS3 and then transfer it to Vita.
Last night I did that with Gradius Portable. Bought it from the NA PSN store on PS3 and after having to disable 2-Step, I transferred it to my original OLED Vita via USB. It's awesome.
I really want Salamander Portable though, obviously for Salamander 2 and Xexex. -- I guess I could always get Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus on PS1 or Saturn, but that doesn't have Xexex.
Has anyone been able to make a Japanese PSN account, purchase Salamander Portable for PSP and play it on PS Vita? Either directly, or by downloading it to PS3 and then transfer it to Vita.
Last night I did that with Gradius Portable. Bought it from the NA PSN store on PS3 and after having to disable 2-Step, I transferred it to my original OLED Vita via USB. It's awesome.
I really want Salamander Portable though, obviously for Salamander 2 and Xexex. -- I guess I could always get Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus on PS1 or Saturn, but that doesn't have Xexex.
nailbombxx
Member
Do you like the game so far? I think the music really fits the action (especially that boss theme) even though I'm not a Djent or Drum'n'Bass fan at all. Are there smiliar games in terms of pattern creativity? There were several moments later in the game that had me go "oh, I see what you did there, game!".
I'm also very slowly crawling my way through Raiden IV. The games becomes so hard after a few stages, phew! It's so well made, though!
I like it, it's quite fun. Yeah, I'm not the biggest fan of djent either but the OST just works. The game itself can be really dazzling sometimes with all of the colors and shots!
To me Danmaku Unlimited plays mostly like modern Dodonpachi but the shape of the bullets and their patterns often remind me of Touhou. Unlike Touhou the bullets in Danmaku Unlimited 2 are large and bright, instead of smallish but there's many more of them. Now, I am really not a fan of Touhou. Aesthetically and in terms of gameplay there is really little I like about that series. You may like the Touhou games though, maybe.
Of course you need to play Dodonpachi Resurrection and Crimzon Clover on steam if you haven't already by some small chance. They're probably the closest in style to Danmaku Unlimited but way, way better games imo.
I still think R-Type is a good example of how many different tactics you can get out of a simple weapon ruleset. You can rapid fire or charge but charging means you can't rapid fire (especially with some of the longer charges in later games). You can dock the force at the front or back to direct your fire that way (no turn-around button) which also shields you from bullets and serves as a melee attack or you can detach the force to throw it at distant enemies or just have it fire shots at different angles (the default force isn't so good undocked beyond being thrown at weak points but some of the Delta and Final forces have very useful independent modes). Plus the detached force's movements react to your own so you can guide it to different places.
And since shmups are autoscrollers and not shooting for a while means that more enemies are entering the screen and attacking, that charge shot is an actual trade-off, not a button you hold all the time like in a Mega Man game.
The Murakumo (or Muramasa or Masamune or whatever, I always get all those names mixed up) in DBCS is somewhat similar with its options that change their weapon type with their formation so you cycle between cancelling bullets, piercing enemies and piercing terrain with them while also making them better or worse at being a physical shield. Your burst shot interrupts your attack but is powerful, keep it firing for a set duration to charge that explosion that triggers when you release it (which is the only way to clear large swarms as you can't sweep back and forth all that fast) but watch your meter and the lower your meter goes the fewer options you'll have afterwards. Yeah, it's OP compared to the other ships but a game balanced around those capabilities could demand some tactical flexibility.
Another thing that could help make shmups more mainstream again would be the Mario 3 and World route with an overworld and large numbers of levels. DBCS is kinda going that way but the heavy repetition and reuse of levels and bosses weakens it considerably (while it has a lot of distinct levels and bosses it starts repeating them very early and gradually shuffles in more stuff, that feels very padded). Compare Tyrian which has a lengthy campaign without that kind of repetition. Repetition is nicer when you want to do it, not when you must do it to proceed. And there's no lack of people playing Mario games at a very high level despite the large number of maps.
SmiteOfHand
Member
The only complication you should run into is the Vita doesn't make it easy to swap between accounts. Having a memory card per account is the easiest method I am aware of with a few minor funky problems like your folder positions will reset. Maybe a few other minor things, been a little while since I've done it.
Also you shouldn't need to disable 2FA, unless it broke ps3 to Vita transfers?
(This may be info you already know and if so disregard) For older hardware that doesn't support 2FA there is a section in the 2FA site that lets you generate an app password. On mobile so don't have an easy link handy but if you can't find it I'll track it down later. IMPORTANT: An app password is less secure and if possible either only use it temporarily or revoke and generate a new one regularly (every 3-6 months or so)
As far as 2FA, I got an error message every time I tried to transfer Gradius Collection from PS3 to Vita. I tried both wireless and USB, and even after shutting down both systems, still got the error. Searched google and found someone had the same problem. They'd called tech support, with no solution that worked, except disabling 2FA. I tried it myself, it worked. Then re-enabled 2FA.
Anyway, it seems like getting Salamander Portable onto my Vita is going to be a real chore. Probably needing an extra memory card in addition to purchasing Yen for the Japanese store. Is there any other way?
shaowebb
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7JGqUQBPFo
I had the new Capcom package wrong folks. The Capcom Darius DLC is Varth, Sidearms PROGEAR. It wont be called Gambler.
I had the new Capcom package wrong folks. The Capcom Darius DLC is Varth, Sidearms PROGEAR. It wont be called Gambler.
davidwhangchoi
Member
sidearms, the game i can rock with one quarter.
i'm just curious what side arms full auto would look like with the length of dual screens. lol i wonder if shotgun would be as crappy as it was in the arcade. crap made me die so many times.
i'm just curious what side arms full auto would look like with the length of dual screens. lol i wonder if shotgun would be as crappy as it was in the arcade. crap made me die so many times.
SmiteOfHand
Member
If you want to save some cash you could technically use the same card and use a PC to backup/restore anytime you wanted to switch. Saves on costs but sacrifices time/effort.
If you happen to have a PSP lying around then it handles account switching on the fly and you can still download games from PSN via the Download List. Getting it connected to the internet is a little more bothersome if you are using wifi with good security, but not impossible.