Support NeoGAF

[Salsa]

I have become more and more assured that the current trend of both developers and gamers confusing the lack of this with better game development, or worse, treating it as an inarguably higher-evolved form of design with each passing day.

Nah, i dont think its an evolved form of anything or the second coming of christ or something, im not that guy.

I think it is on purpose though, and i think its a game made for a non-existent audience. You like it or you dont, there's no mass market on this. I think Suda likes to try things and this is just one of his experiments (wether he's become to much of a "lets just make something cool! luchadores!!" guy is up to you :lol ), but i dont think that the game is what it is because of unwillingly bad game design. I think they did exactly what they wanted to do.

 

[Alucrid]

Silent Hill isn't fun because I'm always scared.

 

[BobsRevenge]

Okay so what we need to do here is find a different word here for the concept OP has described.

Gaiety might be less ambiguous, but I think the OPs definitions is okay and could be found in a dictionary.

edit: Then again if the OP went with gaiety initially the thread would be titled "Should all games be gay?" Maybe that would've been worse. :lol

 

[chiQ]

I game for fun. Having fun is a really good way to relax and recharge, so if a game isn't fun I won't play it. That really means my answer is yes, but only for me. I guess other people game to challenge themselves, kill time, avoid doing other things, etc. so it may not be a factor, but just a bonus.

Fun for me outweighs production values, except where they impact the fun, obviously. I'd rather have a low-budget but really fun game over a fun-free but highly produced title, any day.

 

[Salsa]

Fun for me outweighs production values, except where they impact the fun, obviously. I'd rather have a low-budget but really fun game over a fun-free but highly produced title, any day.

Production values particulary have nothing to do with what i was trying to say. I dont want people thinking im talking about huge cinematic cutscenes or whatever. I love the games that Campster posted on the last page for example, and i much prefer that kind of integrated storytelling to the one featured in the bigger games. Too bad its still mostly an indie thing.

 

[Stahsky]

There is no point in video games that are not fun. It's entertainment.

 

[HK-47]

Absolutely not. Pictures don't need to be pretty. Music doesn't need to be catchy. Dance doesn't need to be graceful. To force an adjective on an entire artistic medium is short-sighted and overly reductionist at best, and damaging for anyone working in that medium at worst. Suddenly the onus on someone trying to express himself in song is to not only bare his soul be make sure there's a beat you can dance to. The painter can't just pour his inner demons out on the canvas, but must do so in a way that is palettable to the eye. The dancer is no longer able to use their body to its fullest expressive extent because loose, sudden, or jerky movements are seen as a lack of skill rather than a conscious effort.

To clarify - the OP makes it pretty clear he's not talking about "engaging" or "interesting" as valid interpretations of fun - just explicitly fun fun. "Whee, I'm having a great time on this waterslide!" fun, not "Watching Schindler's List is grippingly powerful entertainment" fun. No one is arguing that games should be skull-crushingly dull (well, maybe Ian Bogost, but I digress). Seriously, if games are required to make you feel the same way a 10 year old boy in the middle of a neighborhood waterwar feels, and the need to generate that silly emotion supercedes any other thing you're trying to do with your work then it's no wonder we have a medium riddled with nothing but male power fantasies and simple toys.

I mean, look at these games. They've been covered before and many of you have already seen them, but they're engaging without necessarily making you feel like you're a six year old at Disneyland:

Every Day The Same Dream
Real Lives
The Passage

Some of these games might not be to your tastes, and that's totally cool. But there's a difference between games not one being to one's liking and the requirement that all games conform to a single aethstic. Games like these, and numerous others, prove that you can have an engaging experience that isn't necessarily something you'd invite your friends over and split a few beers while playing on a bigscreen TV.

I love The Passage and Every Day. I want to try Sleep is Death.

 

[Salsa]

There is no point in video games that are not fun. It's entertainment.

The only thing you get out of video games is entertainment ?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

There is no point in video games that are not fun. It's entertainment.

There is no point is paintings which are not beautiful. There is no point in music which is discordant. There is no point in films which are not escapism. There is no...

 

[DryvBy]

That's fine but this discussion doesn't have to involve games being art at all.

Allright, question speaks for itself, but lets talk a little..

Given that most of us recognize videogames as an art form, do you think that a fun experience is one of the things it should always transmit ?

See what reading gets us?

 

[John]

currently transmitting fun experience

beep beep

 

[Corto]

Entertaining? Yeah.

I'll just quote my option.

I don't need to have fun, in a more up lifting, and light kind of way, with video games. It depends on the game and even on my mood. Challenge, escapism, to feel fear or anxiety, I can play a game for a number of reasons, and not necessarily for fun only. I know that the word "play" and "games" almost immediately are associated with fun, but I just need to be entertained while I game, and surely in many cases I'll have some fun doing it but not necessarily.

 

[Salsa]

See what reading gets us?

:lol touche

Considering it a way of saying. Was trying to explain that it wasnt a thread for people who think videogames are just meant to be a little fun diversion.

 

[DryvBy]

:lol touche

Considering it a way of saying. Was trying to explain that it wasnt a thread for people who think videogames are just meant to be a little fun diversion.

I gotcha. I was throwning in my thoughts on games as art

And no hard feelings to Jermaine avatar guy.

 

[DryvBy]

delete

 

[jmdajr]

the ones I spend money on better be!

 

[bhlaab]

No. In fact, fun is the #1 barrier between games and art. Saying that a game must be fun is all but admitting that games are nothing but a commercial product.

Example: There are experimental films that endeavor to make films that are unappealing and even physically uncomfortable to watch. It's sort of a beat generation concept but was incredibly important for the formation of the medium.

 

[sixteen-bit]

yeah

 

[Datwheezy]

Schindler's List wasn't fun, but was still engaging. I think it would benefit the games industry if it could deliver an experience like that (and I'm not talking about tons of cutscenes)

 

[Jerk]

Depends on length and price.

I do not think that all games should be fun, but all games that I play I do so because I find them fun.

 

[Bananimus]

I don't believe that games should necessarily be "fun" (or entertaining, even). Imposing that requirement would effectively exclude a large set of games developed for education/training/awareness/other purposes (see: serious games).

That said, games generally have some sort of intended payoff (pleasure, edification, etc). A particular game's associated payoffs may not interest you, but that doesn't mean the game is without value.

 

[Mimir]

Absolutely not. Pictures don't need to be pretty. Music doesn't need to be catchy. Dance doesn't need to be graceful. To force an adjective on an entire artistic medium is short-sighted and overly reductionist at best, and damaging for anyone working in that medium at worst. Suddenly the onus on someone trying to express himself in song is to not only bare his soul but to make sure there's a beat you can dance to. The painter can't just pour his inner demons out on the canvas, but must do so in a way that is palatable to the eye. The dancer is no longer able to use their body to its fullest expressive extent because loose, sudden, or jerky movements are seen as a lack of skill rather than a conscious effort.

To clarify - the OP makes it pretty clear he's not talking about "engaging" or "interesting" as valid interpretations of fun - just explicitly fun fun. "Whee, I'm having a great time on this waterslide!" fun, not "Watching Schindler's List is grippingly powerful entertainment" fun. No one is arguing that games should be skull-crushingly dull (well, maybe Ian Bogost, but I digress). Seriously, if games are required to make you feel the same way a 10 year old boy in the middle of a neighborhood waterwar feels, and the need to generate that silly emotion supersedes any other thing you're trying to do with your work then it's no wonder we have a medium riddled with nothing but male power fantasies and simple toys.

I mean, look at these games. They've been covered before and many of you have already seen them, but they're engaging without necessarily making you feel like you're a six year old at Disneyland:

Every Day The Same Dream
Real Lives
The Passage

Some of these games might not be to your tastes, and that's totally cool. But there's a difference between games not one being to one's liking and the requirement that all games conform to a single aesthetic. Games like these, and numerous others, prove that you can have an engaging experience that isn't necessarily something you'd invite your friends over and split a few beers while playing on a big-screen TV.

Great post! This is exactly how I feel, though I didn't express my opinions as well as you have.

 

[chiQ]

The trouble with games as art (excusively) is those of us who game for fun never see the art, except in trailers and screenshots. You may as well make films or still pictures

Make your work of art fun and I (and probably a lot of other people who play games for fun) will then get to experience the art.

 

[jufonuk]

yes otherwise i aint playing them and they go back to the shop refund time!

 

[NIN90]

hurr durr games should be fun otherwise they be bad. hurr

OP, don't you know that you can't ask this on GAF? It never works here.

 

[Karram]

I've been saying it for some time, but fuck fun. Games should focus on doing interesting thing within the media, and not focus on having fun level design, fun encounters, fun mechanics or elements like highscores, bonus rounds and crap like that.

If games want to evolve beyond being entertainment for teenage, and something no one can take serious as something else but stupid entertainment, then the arcade roots and mentality needs to die.

Braid was a step in the right direction, and hopefully more stuff goes in that direction soon.

Games are no longer "entertainment for kids" its a mainstream entertainment. People who say that Video games is a stupid entertainment for teens are people who actually never play video games and know nothing about them. So to solve that solution is make games more accessible not stopping them from being fun.

 

[tiff]

i can't really think of any game i've played that really offered something more profound than base entertainment, and i don't really think i have a problem with that, either. so i'd say that being fun is a good thing to shoot for, yeah.

not that i'm against experimentation, though.

 

[VoteForPedro]

I don't think Silent Hill are intrinsically "fun" games, yet they are very good games. Fun is not what I'm looking for when I'm playing a survival horror.

Engaging is a more apt term I think.

 

[gutter_trash]

Should all games be fun ?

yes, if it's not fun then it's a bad game

but fun is also relative

when me and friend disagree on what games are fun or not

 

[Ranger X]

what the hell are people having as definition for the word "fun"?

fun means you are currently enjoying yourself for whatever reason and with whatever you are currently doing. There's no other definition. lol

 

[blame space]

gaming is enjoyable timing. there is a reason that the most common thing you do in a video game is shoot things: instant, easy gratification.

control is the art of video games. realistically, rhythm action games on their hardest difficulty setting are the medium's masterpieces: split-second coreography meticulously designed and controlled for enjoyment (or competition, or boredom.. )

no one asks why someone watched a movie.. that's what you do to movies: you watch them. ask a gamer why they're playing a game and you (should) get a variation of the obvious:

"It is fun."

 

[Pinko Marx]

what the hell are people having as definition for the word "fun"?

fun means you are currently enjoying yourself for whatever reason and with whatever you are currently doing. There's no other definition. lol

They're using some weird definition of fun with the connotation that it makes one happy or give a joyful feeling like a kid sliding down a waterslide.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Nah, i dont think its an evolved form of anything or the second coming of christ or something, im not that guy.

I think it is on purpose though, and i think its a game made for a non-existent audience. You like it or you dont, there's no mass market on this. I think Suda likes to try things and this is just one of his experiments (wether he's become to much of a "lets just make something cool! luchadores!!" guy is up to you :lol ), but i dont think that the game is what it is because of unwillingly bad game design. I think they did exactly what they wanted to do.

I agree, my post was tangental to what I bolded, and parallel to the discussion about differing concepts of fun (or the varying thresholds of tolerance to reward, work, mechanics, choice, pacing, or even sound and audio direction.

You made a good point with the bolded; some games need to be met halfway to have fun in them (and there's less now than in the past). Itches that you didn't know needed scratched and all that.

 

[leng jai]

ITT: We argue over the definition of fun

 

[Ducks]

No, just like movies games sometimes have uncomfortable moments that aren't fun, but still add to the depth or overall enjoyment of it.

 

[blame space]

No, just like movies games sometimes have uncomfortable moments that aren't fun, but still add to the depth or overall enjoyment of it.

protip: one of these involves twiddling of thumbs or waggling of arms

Spoiler

WHICH IS A FUCKING STUPID WAY TO GET A DEEP, UNCOMFORTABLE MOMENT ACROSS

 

[Slurmer]

yes

 

[Ducks]

protip: one of these involves twiddling of thumbs or waggling of arms

Spoiler

WHICH IS A FUCKING STUPID WAY TO GET A DEEP, UNCOMFORTABLE MOMENT ACROSS

I'm referring to a game like Silent Hill or something where the game is all about being on the edge of your seat. It's not really fun but it's what the game is about.

 

[blame space]

I'm referring to a game like Silent Hill or something where the game is all about being on the edge of your seat. It's not really fun but it's what the game is about.

ah, atmosphere! i think we're speaking the same language, actually.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I'm referring to a game like Silent Hill or something where the game is all about being on the edge of your seat. It's not really fun but it's what the game is about.

Why does this example keep coming up? Some people find those tense situations fun.

 

[Corto]

Why does this example keep coming up? Some people find those tense situations fun.

Certainly, but others don't, but still endur them for other reasons. Adrenaline rush for example.

 

[Ducks]

Why does this example keep coming up? Some people find those tense situations fun.

Ah, sorry I hadn't read the thread before I posted. I guess it just comes down to personal preference in that case.

I would say that some people also don't find war games fun, or particularly enjoy the gameplay in an rpg but play them for the story. I think all of those games still have their fans which still might not find them fun exactly.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

What would be an example of a game that is pure "fun," that doesn't lean at all on its story, graphics, scares, immersion, customization or anything else. Something that is just "fun." It's really hard to figure out what fun really means...

 

[Blackace]

Heavy Rain isn't fun, but I had a fun time.

.

 

[chiQ]

If you have a fun time playing something I would class it as fun, even if it was a grim story, or brutal genre. Games don't have to be cute and colourful to be fun. I think whatever else your game is it should be fun to play, so people will participate, and thereby take in whatever it is you want them to experience. Again, this is assuming fun attracts everyone. I wonder if there are people who are repelled by fun...?

 

[AkuMifune]

I wouldn't say I had fun in Heavy Rain at all, but it was one of the best gaming experiences I've had this year, so no.



Ok, I did have fun performing a fake orgasm.

 

[To Far Away Times]

There are great movies like Terminator 2 and Predator that are just straight up fun. And then there's movies like The Green Mile that are really good too. There's room for both. Same thing with games.

 

[Ducks]

If you have a fun time playing something I would class it as fun, even if it was a grim story, or brutal genre. Games don't have to be cute and colourful to be fun. I think whatever else your game is it should be fun to play, so people will participate, and thereby take in whatever it is you want them to experience. Again, this is assuming fun attracts everyone. I wonder if there are people who are repelled by fun...?

I guess it comes down to the definition of fun in that case, because I always just thought of fun as just feeling joyful while doing something.

 

[Salsa]

The trouble with games as art (excusively) is those of us who game for fun never see the art, except in trailers and screenshots. You may as well make films or still pictures

Make your work of art fun and I (and probably a lot of other people who play games for fun) will then get to experience the art.

I consider games as a whole to be an art form. When im talking about games as art im not refering to the concept art, a screenshot, music, etc. Gameplay is involved as well, im talking about the whole thing as a medium.

But then again thats a whole different thread..

hurr durr games should be fun otherwise they be bad. hurr

OP, don't you know that you can't ask this on GAF? It never works here.

Where else then ? worth a shot :lol

There's room for both. Same thing with games.

Yep, thats what im saying. The medium is big enough, it wouldnt hurt too much if we took some bald space marines out of the picture to try something new.

 

[-PXG-]

If I want an engaging cinematic experience, I'll watch a movie. If I want to learn something, I'll read a book or travel. I play video games to have fun. If you're not playing video games for fun, seriously, do yourself a favor and find a new hobby. If a game isn't fun, it had no reason to be made and certainly not worth playing.