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Should we boycott Shadow Complex?
- Thread starter Coins
- Start date
Drinky Crow
Banned
i am boycotting it because chair willingly associates itself with a well-known hatemonger and anti-gay media propagandist, and often uses him in marketing their products. when chair cuts him loose and disavows their relationship with him, i'll buy their shiz.
ElectricBlue187
Member
Ender's Game was soooo good though. I can't hate the guy who wrote that, I just can't sorry.
Drinky Crow
Banned
i am so not falling for that
Dude Abides
Banned
soldat7 said:
What about them? Presumably if such people make any video games the people boycotting SC will boycott their games as well.
mik said:When we cleaned out my grandma's basement after she died, she actually still had a copy of this book:
Good times.
Unfortunately, most, if not all, Christian religions have practiced some form of racism in not allowing equal clerical/worship rights to African Americans at some point in their history. Even worse, in fact, you can thank the early Christian explorers (and their Christian governments and sponsors) for much of the transatlantic slave trade.
/off topic
Dude Abides said:
I said opponents of Prop 8. People get ticked off because of the Mormon influence, but where was the equally strong contrary influence? You can't blame Mormons, least of all Mormons in Utah (save leadership) for everything regarding the passing of Prop 8. As someone mentioned earlier, the opponents of Prop 8 seemed to lack centralized leadership and organization. I don't think that mistake will be repeated the next time this comes to vote.
Coins said:
The Mark of Cain and the Curse of Ham (both from the Bible) have been widely used to justify doctrinal isolation of African Americans in many Christian religions (Southern Baptists until 1995, for instance). These passages have even been used to justify slavery.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Others have asked this before, but who knows if anyone read it. I'd expect sensible, non-inflammatory replies to get lost in the shuffle of insanity here.
Okay. For all those who are boycotting the game, do you have a clear, consistent reason why? One of the most important elements in any boycott is that clear, consistent talking point for participants to use when asked.
So which is the clear, consistent talking point, and is there any way for it to be debunked?
In order to have a successful, respectable, intelligent boycott, you'd need to consider what you're saying and what others are saying in response to you. You'd need to have a clear, cogent and rational rebuttal point.
Further, for the boycott to really have merit beyond internet messageboards, you need to have a clear vision for both the HOW and WHY. So how many of you are actively going beyond the "-1 sale" angle? Are any of you speaking out? Writing letters? Going public with your issue? You know, making the case itself? Explaining the WHY behind the HOW?
Okay. For all those who are boycotting the game, do you have a clear, consistent reason why? One of the most important elements in any boycott is that clear, consistent talking point for participants to use when asked.
So which is the clear, consistent talking point, and is there any way for it to be debunked?
In order to have a successful, respectable, intelligent boycott, you'd need to consider what you're saying and what others are saying in response to you. You'd need to have a clear, cogent and rational rebuttal point.
Further, for the boycott to really have merit beyond internet messageboards, you need to have a clear vision for both the HOW and WHY. So how many of you are actively going beyond the "-1 sale" angle? Are any of you speaking out? Writing letters? Going public with your issue? You know, making the case itself? Explaining the WHY behind the HOW?
tahrikmili said:
If you read it you would stop mischaracterizing the boycotts motivations.
Cheech said:
I know what Godwin's Law is. I don't know why you put so much credibility in an internet meme. Read the instances in which he was used, and only speaking for the one or two times I used the name, think about it critically. The analogies were relevant and didn't rely on comparing everything about Hitler to some other person.
kamorra said:
It's frustration. So, so many people come in here and don't read or don't take the time to understand a discussion that has been going on for days now. It is everyone's decision to boycott or not and I wouldn't criticize for coming to a different answer, but I won't let people tell me what my argument is and get it so wrong.
B-Genius said:
No. If someone doesn't agree with me that's fine. Again, what I hate is people who don't take the time to understand what I and others are saying or simply don't care enough. If you're going to participate in the thread that's the least you could do.
Wrestlemania said:
Exactly, thank you
.Wrestlemania
Banned
The Blue Jihad said:
Wow. I'm not sure if you could have possibly made that any more patronising.
ElectricBlue187 said:
How many novels have you read? Either you've been extremely unlucky with the novels you have read, or you have very different tastes from my own. Ender's Game is a children's book, but even by those standards it's pretty lame.
Besides, the guy who wrote it tried to justify terrorism/treason. You're honestly telling me you couldn't hate a guy like that?
Dude Abides
Banned
soldat7 said:
My mistake on the misreading. I was one of the ones criticizing the strategy and organization of the No on 8 crowd. But the position you seem to be taking is that unless you criticize every single thing that allowed Prop. 8 to occur, you are unable to criticize any of them in particular. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. This is a video-game discussion board, and the only video game connected to the Prop 8 issue, however attenuated, is Shadow Complex. Thus, there isn't really any reason at this point and on this board to be going after, for example, the Human Rights Campaign for their disorganized and ineffectual campaign.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Wrestlemania said:
Look, this thread is so chaotic and so many different people are posting for and against the boycott that I know I'm having trouble discerning one clear, consistent message coming from either side. I can't be the only one who's unable to pluck any one solid idea out of this. So please spare me your angst and make yourself useful. Pick a side and make your argument matter.
To summarize the argument being made by myself and a few other people:
OSC sits on committees whose purpose is to deny rights to American citizens. He is of the opinion that gay people are created through abuse and rape, and any who are sexually active should be considered as less than equal citizens. These are direct quotes. The most important part though, the point relevant to the boycott, is he is very much involved in furthering his views politically. He has some measure of influence, certainly more so then a random person with an opinion.
The boycott is not being pursued by some in order to punish Chair or change OSC's personal opinions. It is not about "making a point." It is simply the case that some do not want their money to end up in that mans hands, who, as mentioned previously, is involved in activities they find abhorrent.
It's a very simple personal judgment about whether the purchase of the game represents enough good to overcome the bad. Some people have come to the conclusion that it doesn't, and therefor will not buy the game. If others reach the opposite conclusion, that's perfectly fine! As I said, it's a personal judgment. What gets me frustrated is not that people come to an answer that is different from mine, but that some people do not have the courtesy to even grasp the arguments or, in lieu of that, ask for clarification before declaring a thread stupid or those who are boycotting idiots.
OSC sits on committees whose purpose is to deny rights to American citizens. He is of the opinion that gay people are created through abuse and rape, and any who are sexually active should be considered as less than equal citizens. These are direct quotes. The most important part though, the point relevant to the boycott, is he is very much involved in furthering his views politically. He has some measure of influence, certainly more so then a random person with an opinion.
The boycott is not being pursued by some in order to punish Chair or change OSC's personal opinions. It is not about "making a point." It is simply the case that some do not want their money to end up in that mans hands, who, as mentioned previously, is involved in activities they find abhorrent.
It's a very simple personal judgment about whether the purchase of the game represents enough good to overcome the bad. Some people have come to the conclusion that it doesn't, and therefor will not buy the game. If others reach the opposite conclusion, that's perfectly fine! As I said, it's a personal judgment. What gets me frustrated is not that people come to an answer that is different from mine, but that some people do not have the courtesy to even grasp the arguments or, in lieu of that, ask for clarification before declaring a thread stupid or those who are boycotting idiots.
Graphics Horse
Member
Would anyone have problems if a game featured advertising for a city where homosexuality is illegal?
yankeeforever2
Member
I would play a game about Iran.Graphics Horse said:
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
anyone who believes they get their own planet when they die deserves to be boycotted !
Shamrock said:
FUCK YOU, GOT MINE
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Asmodai said:
How do you ask that question? It is clear as day that he is talking about fellow posters who have not bought the game. That ain't hard.
On your second point, how dare someone say "Should we boycott Shadow Complex?". The fact that the word we would be used to address members of a forum is beyond asinine ain't it? We are all a member of a forum and we are part of a collective. Bitching about the OP is one of the craziest things I have read in this thread. Does the OP title say "We have to boycott Shadow Complex?" No it doesn't so get off your fucking semantic bullshit about a god damn pronoun.
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
sorry if my production of a general life guideline independent of any ongoing thread discussion offends youBig-E said:
ElectricBlue187
Member
Asmodai said:
Yes Ender's Game is acessible to almost anyone but that doesn't hurt my opinion of it. I also don't hate on Pixar movies because they are 'made for kids'. Ender's Game is a masterpiece of science fiction. Just talking about it makes me want to re-read it right now. I really don't care if Orson Scott Card hates jews/gays/germans/me. It really has no bearing on the fact that he wrote one of my favorite books ever.
Meus Renaissance
Member
:lol @ OP
The Blue Jihad
Member
Coins said:
Coins, you aren't helping your side when you respond with these Tucker Bounds-esque snide little quips. You're the complete opposite of a worthwhile spokesman. KHarvey16, on the other hand, has the right idea.
KHarvey16 said:
Thank you. Now, how much would OSC actually be receiving for the game? I'd agree that any amount would be too much from your point of view, but are there any actual numbers? It would help to put things into perspective.
Also, you aren't trying to change his opinions, sure, but if you're boycotting the game because you disagree with him, then you are protesting his (admittedly vile) viewpoint. Now is a boycott of Shadow Complex the best way to protest OSC's views? How does the loss of a game sale drive the point home? Are you doing anything beyond merely not buying the game? I understand it's a personal judgment, but if your disagreement is this profound, it seems only natural to take it a step further and speak out against what he espouses.
Dr. Zoidberg
Member
Do we know if OSC is getting a percentage of sales or a lump sum? If it's the latter, how is any of the money from the sales of the game going to end up in his pockets? He already has his money.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Coins said:
You don't want to play this game with me. I'm not about to wade through some 20+ pages just to satisfy you, especially when skimming over the past 2 pages yields this glory of a post of yours:
Coins said:
I don't care what post prompted that reply. Posts like that and attitudes like yours are what has plunged this thread into degenerate mud-flinging chaos.
I stand by what I said about you earlier. You are not a worthwhile spokesman for your side, and if you care about what you're fighting for, then you absolutely need to drop the completely asinine Tucker Bounds nonsense.
If you can't do that, then get out of here. Nobody wants you participating in this debate.
Asmodai said:
It's not a 'children's book'. (At the very least, it wasn't intentionally written for the YA audience.) Just because a story has a young protagonist doesn't mean it was intended for children. If it had been a YA novel, I would have expected it to win the Newbery award, not both the Hugo and Nebula. I can't stand OSC's personal views, but Ender's Game is widely well-regarded, and for a reason.
At risk of derailing things here somewhat, I'd like to ask: What do you consider to be 'good' works of fiction? To be honest, most of the people here who are outspoken critics of the stories in videogames love books and movies that IMO are no better (or worse, depending on your POV) than the games they routinely slam. It would be helpful to have some context for your dismissal of Ender's Game as a 'pretty lame children's book', because right now it just seems like pseudointellectual puffery on your part.
And here's a better question for everyone:
Should we boycott Ender's Game: Battle Room?
From Wikipedia:
If people want to threaten to boycott something, preferably before it's finished and released, it ought to be this. It was announced in 2008, and as far as I know, it's still being developed. (I couldn't find a cancellation announcement, at any rate.
) It's got Card's name plastered all over it, and he's supposed to be working closely with Chair to oversee the adaptation, so there's really no ambiguity about how great his involvement is or whether or not OSC will profit from it. On a final note, I object to the suggestion that people are trying to 'punish' OSC and/or Chair for his views. Punishment, to me, implies schadenfreude on the part of the boycotters - that the primary intent is to make him/them suffer. I don't want to visit financial ruin upon OSC as revenge for espousing views I object to. However, I would love nothing more than to see him acquire a reputation as a 'poison pill' and have game developers avoid associating him with their projects for fear of controversy and lost sales... at least until such a time as he stops using his prominence as an author to promote his hateful, discriminatory views. It's regrettable that innocent people could potentially suffer financial losses because of Chair's association with OSC, and I'm not filled with glee at the thought. But if there are boycotts, and they make people start thinking twice about working with this bigot (and make said bigot reconsider whether it's really such a good idea for him to promote the agenda he has been), then the results would be worth it.
FrostuTheNinja
Member
The Blue Jihad said:
I've been trying to figure out how to say this for a couple of pages. It almost strikes me as the "Holier Than Thou" horse shit some nuts pull.
Don't some of these people realize they are as much of a bigot as their self proclaimed nemesis?
Spokesmen? They certainly don't speak for me. We aren't organized, and we're only boycotting by the loosest definition of the word.The Blue Jihad said:
If you think you can do a little, don't bother, because you should be doing more. Is that your argument?The Blue Jihad said:
We've talked about the above before. Yes, I am playing this game with you.
ZephyrFate
Banned
I like how expressing genuine dislike for homophobia and gay marriage is somehow 'asinine' and is the reason we have such 'mud-flinging chaos'. No, it's people like OSC and others who bought this game to spite gays or do not care for their cause because they're straight (one of the stupidest reasons to not support something) that have created all the mud-flinging. If we cut out the retards, we could get some modest discussion going.The Blue Jihad said:
And at times, we have.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Now I'm wondering about the kind of people I've supported over the years by buying their games.
FrostuTheNinja said:
This is something I tried to say before, and maybe I wasn't clear about it. Wanting to stamp out homosexuality and wanting to stamp out bigotry is not the same thing. Denying gay citizens the rights that straight ones enjoy is wrong. Guys like OSC are the ones trying to impose a particular morality and way of life on everyone. Even though the conservative opponents of gay rights like to claim otherwise, the gay rights movement isn't trying to impose a particular way of life on anyone. They're not advocating penalties for being straight, or claiming rights for themselves that straight people shouldn't be entitled to. They're not trying to create a climate where straights are under social pressure to hide their sexual orientation and act gay in public if they want to avoid discrimination or worse. Yet people like you try to paint both sides as the same.
No, dammit, they're not the same. You're wrong.
There is nothing shameful about being biased against Card and his ilk - people who would deny rights to others based on their sexual orientation, and would love nothing better than to force them 'back into the closet' so they can pretend what they don't like doesn't exist.
Judging a person based on their sexual orientation shouldn't be acceptable in our society. It's an individual matter, and the people claiming it 'harms families' or 'harms the community' are full of shit. What they're really saying is that it harms them, by undermining the things they believe in and giving them less of a leg to stand on when they try to promote their 'way of life' to others. Guys like OSC deserve scorn. People who speak out against those people don't. End of story.
PepsimanVsJoe said:
Worse people than OSC, I'm sure.
Can we get a count of all the confirmed boycotts? I want to see just how many "heroes" this monster thread has in it. Also, I need to find out how many extra copies to buy to just to make it a worthless endeavor for them.
AkuMifune said:
You do that. Show everyone who wants to at least try and change things for the better how pointless it is to bother, because there are always going to be self-serving shitheads itching for a chance to throw a spanner in the works just 'for the lulz'. (Or because they genuinely support bigots like Card, which is just as bad.)
Not that I actually think you're going to spend a fucking dime, so I'm hardly losing sleep over it. Still, it's a pretty shitty thing to say, and it doesn't reflect all that well on you, either.
Spoo said:
Aside from a few nutjobs, most of the people who decided not to purchase Shadow Complex aren't doing it to hurt Card, they just have no incentive to purchase a game tied to him. That doesn't mean they wish it to fail. I personally couldn't care less how poorly or well Card's book sells, I'm just not interested in supporting him.
You guys seem to have an obsession with trying to label the people on the otherside of the fence as self-proclaimed heroes when that for the most part is not true at all.
Actually I completely intend on buying a few extra copies. I'm not a self-serving shithead, I just don't think these devs or this game deserves to get hurt over a few misguided souls trying to make a statement. You can't judge a body of work completed by a group of talented people based on the beliefs of one outside individual in that group. That's bigoted.Tellaerin said: