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[D1rkG3ntly]

Krejlooc you and your team do deserve the opportunity to be rewarded for your hard work. Your method has been a proven way of making a name for yourself as a game developer in the past (CS, TF, DOD, DotA, Black Mesa, Minerva, Garry's Mod, DayZ) and I don't see that changing going forward. Valve in particular has strongly valued mod makers and I'm sure that was one of the motivating reasons your team took the initial risk with a modding a Valve product.

Valve and Bethesda however just flipped the script on Skyrim modding by changing it from a (relatively) anxiety free communist type society to a free-for-all capitalist one. Once money becomes a factor in anything human behavior fundamentally changes, for the good and the bad. Like switching governments in a game of Civilization, social unrest will be prevalent so you should try and show a little empathy in that respect. Once you have your own work stolen or ripped off I'm sure you won't be a big fan of completely open system like the one that was just implemented (with no real curation). Anyways as a big half-life fan I hope your mouth can cash all the checks its been writing when we get to see what you've been up to.

 

[jmga]

Not according to the tos.

Sure? They all do.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/users/donate/?mode=straight&id=28794

EDIT: That one is now going to sell his mods on Steam.

 

[Ganzlinger]

They could beg? How about if they themselves decide if they should sell their work?

If the developer permits, they have the support from most of mod users to do so. There are modders out there who charge their mods.

 

[JudgmentJay]

Gotta say, I'm not a fan of this. I mean it's understandable that mod authors, especially those with big mods would want to be compensated in some way, but still... I'm not a fan of this. I'll wait and see how it all pans out instead claiming that the sky is falling though.

 

[Krejlooc]

Sure? They all do.

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/users/donate/?mode=straight&id=28794

These are breaking the terms of service. Bethesda just turns a blind eye.

 

[Dolor]

So many reactionaries to all this. I actually wonder if this isn't some kind of aggregate fear of change.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[zombieshavebrains]

Yes, your double standard was very apparent.



Valve detailed the way at Dev Days that they made hand over fist money by giving portal 2 away. Valve also has incentive to give things away. Their monetization isn't only solely tied to direct commerce.

When did they give portal 2 away for free?!

 

[Ganzlinger]

These are breaking the terms of service. Bethesda just turns a blind eye.

Are you sure?

Before donating please be aware that you should not be donating to users in return for access to any service, file or content provided by the user which includes "donating" to gain access to additional content for files. All the files on this site are 100% free to download and 100% free of payment for everyone and we have strict rules against users charging for any part of their files, additional content or services. If you feel you have been asked to donate in order to gain access to additional content or services please contact us immediately.

Anyway, Bethesda can't dictate what I do with my money.

 

[NotoriousPUG]

Out of this entire situation, this is probably what angers me the most.

Chesko was gearing up to put some finishing touches on his Campfire mod, as well as updating Frostfall to reflect some performance changes he had found while figuring out how to do multi-threading in Papyrus (Skyrim's scripting language). Because of this debacle, there is a chance he might never put up his finished work on those projects on the Nexus or anywhere else. For those of us who love the modding scene for the mods, this is an unfortunate loss.

He never intended to put his work up on the curated workshop forever; as stated (though we will never truly know if this was the case), he was hoping to put up his work as timed exclusives on the Workshop, and then eventually siphon them back on to the Nexus.

Now, because of this, Valve and Bethesda have effectively hung him up to dry, which has driven him away from this community. His work is legendary, but now - thanks to this - his legacy is likely going to be as one of the first authors who wanted to try out this payment system and is ultimately getting burned.

My stance is that donating to mod authors is fantastic, but having a paywall makes the modding scene much more difficult to navigate for users. Chesko made some strong arguments about why a payment model may benefit the scene, but I still don't think the way that Valve and Bethesda went about it was the best way. What's worse, they have decided to let one of their most prominent content creators be wrung out for this as the peanut gallery sees fit.

He will, hopefully, return to the scene one day.

He doesn't even have to stop. He's literally doing that to himself.

The mod he wanted pulled is no longer sold. People who previously bought it get to keep it. He himself said that he and the other modder with the dispute are cool now. It's literally over, and he's just taking his ball and going home.

 

[Suikoguy]

So many reactionaries to all this. I actually wonder if this isn't some kind of aggregate fear of change.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Just curious, looking at your post makes me think you are 12 and have no history and experience by which to judge.
Those of us who have been around forever, especially with gaming as a hobby (personally, since Atari), can easily see the writing on the wall with this move.

Edit: Upon rereading my post, this did come across as a little harsh. Just keep in mind some of us have even gamed before there was such a thing as expansions, let alone DLC.
Expansions were "ok". DLC on average has been shit. There are countless more examples of shitty DLC then good DLC.

 

[Dwalls]

So many reactionaries to all this. I actually wonder if this isn't some kind of aggregate fear of change.

This is why we can't have nice things.

We already had nice things. They're going away now though. To be replaced with the loose parts version of our previous nice things with none of the interconnectedness that made the previous nice things great. Oh and we've gotten several added plausible impending doomsday scenarios as a bonus.

 

[wetwired]

I posted this elsewhere but I'll copy and paste it here cause I'm lazy...

Paying for mods is really up for the creator to decide, and for you as the consumer to decide whether to pay for it or not. The cut going to Steam and the game creators seems obscene to me but that's for the creator to decide if they wish to accept being bent over for the remaining change.

Having said that, I started out my video game career, making levels for Action Quake 2 before joining the Urban Terror mod team for Quake 3.
I don't really have any ethical opposition to paying for mods, I certainly wouldn't have offered mine for sale at the time as my interest was as a hobbyist. As my work started to get noticed I was more interested in getting as many people as possible to see it so I might potentially get full time work, using my modding work as my portfolio.

I started modding as a hobby, it wasn't until people started commenting on my work and asking if I was in the industry did I actually consider it a valid career option and decided to pursue it. Just through the sheer numbers of people seeing my work due to it being free, I likely wouldn't have had those comments and feedback had I charged for it, and now 16 years later I've been working professionally in the industry for 14 years and am co-founder of my own game studio. Would that have happened if I'd charged for my mods? probably not, I'd still be making websites or fixing computers for a living.

 

[Krejlooc]

When did they give portal 2 away for free?!

The december right before steam dev days

Are you sure?

Before donating please be aware that you should not be donating to users in return for access to any service, file or content provided by the user which includes "donating" to gain access to additional content for files. All the files on this site are 100% free to download and 100% free of payment for everyone and we have strict rules against users charging for any part of their files, additional content or services. If you feel you have been asked to donate in order to gain access to additional content or services please contact us immediately.

http://store.steampowered.com/eula/eula_202480

Anyway, Bethesda can't dictate what I do with my money.

Bethesda can dictates whether or not people can distribute mods, however.

 

[Suikoguy]

Bethesda can dictates whether or not people can distribute mods, however.

Sorta, I don't see them taking a modder to court.
The PR would be awful for what they would gain.

 

[crazyrabbits]

Bethesda can dictates whether or not people can distribute mods, however.

Careful - you're running into a minefield with that comment. Mods have skirted gray areas for a long time, and a company can't legally enforce the scarcity/control over mods. It's never really been done before, as far as I know.

 

[cdyhybrid]

0% > 25%?

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

RIP modding

 

[BreezyLimbo]

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

RIP modding

Oh my god. I mean that's funny, but geez

 

[Krejlooc]

Sorta, I don't see them taking a modder to court.
The PR would be awful for what they would gain.

They would send a cease and desist. This has happened with quite a few mods in the past on other games. As I said before, it was against the tos but they turned a blind eye. This avenue doesnt violate the tos.

 

[Krejlooc]

Careful - you're running into a minefield with that comment. Mods have skirted gray areas for a long time, and a company can't legally enforce the scarcity/control over mods. It's never really been done before, as far as I know.

http://www.bsimracing.com/fia-sends-out-cease-and-desist-letter-to-modding-teams/

 

[Suikoguy]

They would send a cease and desist. This has happened with quite a few mods in the past on other games. As I said before, it was against the tos but they turned a blind eye. This avenue doesnt violate the tos.

A C&D does shit unless they follow up on it.

 

[crazyrabbits]

http://www.bsimracing.com/fia-sends-out-cease-and-desist-letter-to-modding-teams/

That doesn't discount what I said. People send C&D letters all the time, but as far as mods go, I don't know any cases where someone was actually sued in court for releasing a mod.

 

[Krejlooc]

That doesn't discount what I said. People send C&D letters all the time, but as far as mods go, I don't know any cases where someone was actually sued in court for releasing a mod.

Because the modders always actually cease and desist.

 

[crazyrabbits]

Because the modders always actually cease and desist.

At this point, you're just rambling. It's clear at this point that you stopped listening to reason a long time ago.

 

[Corronchilejano]

A C&D does shit unless they follow up on it.

I wouldn't attempt to go against a C&D if my opponent is a ginormous company that could bankrupt me by just suing me (not even winning).

 

[Suikoguy]

I wouldn't attempt to go against a C&D if my opponent is a ginormous company that could bankrupt me by just suing me (not even winning).

Yeah... as such is the sad state of affairs of copyright law currently. Those with the power and money have an inordinate amount of leverage.

 

[BennyBlanco]

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

RIP modding

I can't stop laughing. Pop up ads in mods?

 

[superseohyun]

Look, the mod scene is a free-for-all clusterfuck of QA/compatibility issues and resource sharing. You can't just go to modders, say "Hey, let's set up a deal - you can charge money for the mod, as long as we get 75% of it" and call it a done deal. The moment you start charging for these things, and take a cut, it ceases to become a mod, and becomes DLC. And it should be held to the standard of a professionally released consumer product. Compatibility issues with other mods shouldn't be an issue anymore. Nor should stolen assets. But they will be.

Either go to individual modders and contract them to make official DLC for you, or stay the fuck out of the modding scene. Don't put a pricetag on existing mods and say you're helping the community when you're just fucking it up.

Completely agree. If the publisher and distributor want 75% of profit, they need to do some more work.

 

[Krejlooc]

At this point, you're just rambling. It's clear at this point that you stopped listening to reason a long time ago.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/tecmo-defeats-doa-hackers-in-court/1100-6109292/

 

[LurkerPrime]

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

RIP modding

Sad more than anything.

Grabbing for the money won't give him the Midas touch.

 

[D1rkG3ntly]

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/tecmo-defeats-doa-hackers-in-court/1100-6109292/

Did you even read this article? This was a verdict in Japan.

"The outcome of this case might have been completely different in the United States. In the early '90s, American courts continually upheld the right of Lewis Galoob Toys to produce its Game Genie accessory, which let Nintendo Entertainment System users alter their video games in a similar, temporary manner. Nintendo asserted that the device infringed upon its copyrights, but the courts did not agree."

 

[Vamphuntr]

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

RIP modding

The comments are already insane. Someone already said to him to go kill yourself.

 

[Nibiru]

This is such a greed play by Valve and nothing more. There are great mods out there but most of them are terrible and either crash your game or stop working the moment there is a game patch. This will be exploited by Valve and some slick modders to the maximum for great profits but the users will get the shaft.

Unless there are checks and balances for mods that are allowed to charge, which based on the ones I've already seen there obviously isn't many. They might be able to get rid of the really outrageous mods but my concern is with the ones that are not so in your face scams that promise things but don't work.

Ultimately this will ruin the workshop imo and nothing will be free.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/tecmo-defeats-doa-hackers-in-court/1100-6109292/

The outcome of this case might have been completely different in the United States. In the early '90s, American courts continually upheld the right of Lewis Galoob Toys to produce its Game Genie accessory, which let Nintendo Entertainment System users alter their video games in a similar, temporary manner. Nintendo asserted that the device infringed upon its copyrights, but the courts did not agree.

We're in the USA. The only company I've heard of recently that does this, is Nintendo with their C&D's to small modding groups(IIRC they sent one to a group that was doing a fan translation of Mother 3)

 

[Ace 8095]

75% cut almost seems unreasonable. I guess it gives devs incentive to allow paid mods on steam, but unless your mod make' it big it seems unlikely the creator will generate a reasonable return.

If the goal was to get professionals making high quality mods on the side I'm not sure if 25% is gonna do it.

 

[Ganzlinger]

http://store.steampowered.com/eula/eula_202480

The terms are saying exactly this:

You are only permitted to distribute the New Materials, without charge (i.e., on a strictly non-commercial basis) (except as set forth in Section 5 below), to other authorized users who have purchased the Product, solely for use with such users’ own authorized copies of such Product and in accordance with and subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement and all applicable laws.

Donations aren't charge so I still don't see how the mods on Nexus are violating the terms.

 

[BennyBlanco]

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/tecmo-defeats-doa-hackers-in-court/1100-6109292/

Sega and Sony couldn't even defeat these guys in court, and this was egregriously using other IPs.

 

[SuperChoco]

Did you even read this article? This was a verdict in Japan.

"The outcome of this case might have been completely different in the United States. In the early '90s, American courts continually upheld the right of Lewis Galoob Toys to produce its Game Genie accessory, which let Nintendo Entertainment System users alter their video games in a similar, temporary manner. Nintendo asserted that the device infringed upon its copyrights, but the courts did not agree."

Most digital games released on Steam or other Store-fronts have a clause in the EULA that prohibit changing/editing the software.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

75% cut almost seems unreasonable. I guess it gives devs incentive to allow paid mods on steam, but unless your mod make' it big it seems unlikely the creator will generate a reasonable return.

If the goal was to get professionals making high quality mods on the side I'm not sure if 25% is gonna do it.

Yeah, this is my ire with it. If it was something like, 75% to the mod creator/25% to steam/dev I'd be perfectly fine. As it is now, I'd rather download the mod for free, and donate directly to the creator of that mod, showing interest that I'd like to see more of that kinda stuff.

Most digital games released on Steam or other Store-fronts have a clause in the EULA that prohibit changing/editing the software.

I think most games in general have that. Said EULAs for physical copies also have the caveat that you cannot resell that title to anyone else...and well here we have Gamestop and a Buy/Sell/Trade thread on Neogaf.

 

[Suikoguy]

Most digital games released on Steam or other Store-fronts have a clause in the EULA that prohibit changing/editing the software.

EULAs are not binding law.

 

[wickfut]

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

RIP modding

ha ha

So much disbelief in only two whole days, this is fucking hilarious.. to all you people supporting this bullshit I really hope you enjoy your wonderful future.

 

[Verdre]

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

http://i.imgur.com/cVtoTn8.png

RIP modding

This is amazing. I mean, this is basically the perfect example of how not to get people to buy your mod.

 

[Sou Da]

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

RIP modding

mobile game tactics already?

 

[wickfut]

mobile game tactics already?

Yeah, next up is "you have used up todays allocated spell uses. Please pay again for more spells or wait 24 hours"

 

[The Cowboy]

mobile game tactics already?

I actually wasn't expecting this so soon, i mean popup adverts in mods - its both funny and really sad at the same time.

 

[Almighty]

RIP modding

Well that put a damper on the whole "some mods still will be free" argument. Because yeah closing a dozen messages(if this become common) asking for money every time I load up a game sounds like fun. What a shit show.

 

[zombieshavebrains]

Man I can't even view the discussions for the mods. That is, unless you pay for them i'm assuming. I can see threads but it says I don't have access to that page.

 

[Arkage]

This entire situation is going down the F2P path of time limits, pop up reminders, etc. It seems like this model really is going to swallow up everything at some point, which is depressing.

I also find it sad that Valve is pushing for users to do most of the legwork for steam services (ratings, tags, greenlight, curation, troubleshooting). Meanwhile, their 30% cut from sales, 75% cut from hats, and 20-25% cut from mods turns Gabe into one of the richest people on the planet.

 

[SuperChoco]

EULAs are not binding law.

Yeah, this is my ire with it. If it was something like, 75% to the mod creator/25% to steam/dev I'd be perfectly fine. As it is now, I'd rather download the mod for free, and donate directly to the creator of that mod, showing interest that I'd like to see more of that kinda stuff.



I think most games in general have that. Said EULAs for physical copies also have the caveat that you cannot resell that title to anyone else...and well here we have Gamestop and a Buy/Sell/Trade thread on Neogaf.

You both are right, EULA's are not binding law and usually aren't enforced. Given that though, they can be used in court cases against modders to prevent certain mods to receive further updates. It's a bit early to see if Bethesda would bother to create a precedent in that regard. Also, physical games fall under the first sale doctrine, while digital games with drm don't. (For whatever reason)

RIP modding

This is why I think picking Skyrim first for this wasn't a good idea, with mods that were previously free to now not. Midas magic is also very expensive for a mod, so I'd see this as the wrong way to monetize mods overall. S/He got too greedy and probably will be burned for it.

 

[Trojita]

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

RIP modding

I was imagining pop ups in free mods as a joke that would never happened.

What the fuck. Please tell me this was a joke post by him.

 

[RK9039]

It's kind of baffling to me to see people defending the next wave of horse armor with the same wide-eyed acceptance that some people defended the original horse armor debacle with in 2006. A lot of people thought the best then too and look at where we are now. It's going to be funny revisiting this thread in 2021. I remember lurking and seeing a lot of posts to the effect of oh well I'll just get the pc version and mod it in. Now it doesn't matter who does it, it's monetized horse armor dlc regardless.

Yup, I've kept this thread in my sub folder. It's going to be amusing reading through all of this in a few years time.

That wasn't what you said. You said modders make more than the developers. The devs get 50% of the mod purchase, the modder gets 25%.

Also, Midas magic sat unupdated forever until paid mods became possible, then he immediately comes back, updates it, puts it up for sale, and puts ads into the free version.

:l o fucking l

RIP modding

OMG, in game pop-ups? lmao.