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So why does League of Legends still have a larger playerbase than Dota 2?
- Thread starter ScOULaris
- Start date
Re: Bringing up Rosewater
I used to follow his articles back in the 00s and I agree with much of what he says. But it's important to keep in mind that as Rosewater's philosophy spread through WOTC, Standard, which is where the New World Order is most keenly felt, has steadily decreased in... let's say "complex oppressiveness". Combo is actively designed against. Permission is nonexistent. What kinds of Control there is, is mostly people gaining a lot of life and throwing up walls, literal or figurative. Fine, a lot of people feel Combo and Permission Control are both "unfun" to play against, and Magic's continued growth is testament to the effectiveness of this paradigm shift.
However there is value in obtuse complexity and you can see this in the smaller but vigorous Modern and Legacy formats. I always enjoyed following Modern (and its predecessor, Extended) more than Standard, and my friend, who prefers Permission Control, feels the same. To us, Standard, around the time of RTR/Theros was just extremely dull, especially in contrast to Scars/Innistrad. The power level was lower. What power there was was concentrated in big guys you turned sideways to run into the other big guys. There was maybe 2-3 counterspells per block. You'd be lucky if you could slap together a mana engine and most of it was ramp ramp ramp. At the time, I had also gotten into Hearthstone and I could see the similarities in their approach. Both Blizzard and WOTC realized you can get maximize player acquisition by presenting a straightforward, intuitive game, high on proactiveness and low on oppressiveness. There was a shift, from both sides,towards empowering player to "do things" instead of "stop things from happening".
And that's also how I see the League/Dota dichotomy. There's a lot of common complaints I hear about Dota from League players and most of those complaints are the reasons I prefer Dota over League, and Modern over Standard.
I used to follow his articles back in the 00s and I agree with much of what he says. But it's important to keep in mind that as Rosewater's philosophy spread through WOTC, Standard, which is where the New World Order is most keenly felt, has steadily decreased in... let's say "complex oppressiveness". Combo is actively designed against. Permission is nonexistent. What kinds of Control there is, is mostly people gaining a lot of life and throwing up walls, literal or figurative. Fine, a lot of people feel Combo and Permission Control are both "unfun" to play against, and Magic's continued growth is testament to the effectiveness of this paradigm shift.
However there is value in obtuse complexity and you can see this in the smaller but vigorous Modern and Legacy formats. I always enjoyed following Modern (and its predecessor, Extended) more than Standard, and my friend, who prefers Permission Control, feels the same. To us, Standard, around the time of RTR/Theros was just extremely dull, especially in contrast to Scars/Innistrad. The power level was lower. What power there was was concentrated in big guys you turned sideways to run into the other big guys. There was maybe 2-3 counterspells per block. You'd be lucky if you could slap together a mana engine and most of it was ramp ramp ramp. At the time, I had also gotten into Hearthstone and I could see the similarities in their approach. Both Blizzard and WOTC realized you can get maximize player acquisition by presenting a straightforward, intuitive game, high on proactiveness and low on oppressiveness. There was a shift, from both sides,towards empowering player to "do things" instead of "stop things from happening".
And that's also how I see the League/Dota dichotomy. There's a lot of common complaints I hear about Dota from League players and most of those complaints are the reasons I prefer Dota over League, and Modern over Standard.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
League is alot like Overwatch. It's simple, it has colorful characters with personalities that people enjoy. Characters are clear cut in what they do, IE it's easy to tell if a character is a jungler or a carry, and the systems surrounding the in game play aren't overtly complex.
DotA 2 is like Battleborn. It's complicated, its characters are a bit less colorful than it's competitor, the personalities of each character are dry-cut. Characters aren't as simple to approach, and the systems surrounding the in game are complex(And rewarding, I'm sure).
They both have their ups and downs. But League is probably the biggest game in the world right now, and frankly they have to be doing something right to be maintaining that.
DotA 2 is like Battleborn. It's complicated, its characters are a bit less colorful than it's competitor, the personalities of each character are dry-cut. Characters aren't as simple to approach, and the systems surrounding the in game are complex(And rewarding, I'm sure).
They both have their ups and downs. But League is probably the biggest game in the world right now, and frankly they have to be doing something right to be maintaining that.
Maybe stability-wise but navigating anything beyond the first page is a goddamn nightmare. The changes they made to the item view work in theory but are horribly cumbersome in practice.
It's not fun at all for the other who is getting steamrolled though =/
Surrendering at 20 when it's obvious that there is no way to win is something I appreciate a lot.
Even pro matches sometimes (rarely though) surrender at tournament just to avoid wasting everyone's time.
Übermatik;208030141 said:
I mean, let's be real here. This attitude is kinda shit. I'm pretty sure a lot of those stubborn LoL players have played Dota.
Just because something is more complex or deeper, that doesn't make it better. Just because something is simpler and popular, that doesn't make it better either. I played Dota 2 for over 400 hours and I went back to League. I just like the flow of the game more. Doesn't make it a better game, just makes it one I prefer.
But anyway, let's get back to the real argument: Ahri or Windranger?
Lol is much more accessible on the surface, and the visual language is much cleaner and brighter
That's why I chose lol over doto at first and now I just can't get into doto
Especially with fewer control customization options in doto unless there's a secret menu I haven't found yet
That's why I chose lol over doto at first and now I just can't get into doto
Especially with fewer control customization options in doto unless there's a secret menu I haven't found yet
What options do you feel are missing?
Imperfected
Member
I personally find forcing a team to surrender at 20 to be extremely gratifying. As a jungler, it's often a direct result of psychological warfare I've waged on their team, and not reflective of their actual chances of winning in a measurable sense.
That said, I still think it's almost completely irrelevant to popularity.
I'm telling you: waifus and husbandos. Character-driven games live and die by their characters. This is true of fighting games (and why Virtua Fighter has never been the premier franchise, despite arguably being mechanically superior to others), it's true of "hero shooters" (and why TF2 took off instead of games like RtCW, or why Overwatch is taking off and Quake Arena will drown in a puddle of tears), it's true of character-action games (and the reason there's such a bitter divide between DMC4 and DmC fans), and it's doubly, triply, quadruply true of MOBAs.
That's not to say DOTA2's characters are bad--the MOBAs with bad characters are flat-out fucking dead--but even a small difference in magnitude in this category is magnified a thousand times over. This is the fulcrum.
That said, I still think it's almost completely irrelevant to popularity.
I'm telling you: waifus and husbandos. Character-driven games live and die by their characters. This is true of fighting games (and why Virtua Fighter has never been the premier franchise, despite arguably being mechanically superior to others), it's true of "hero shooters" (and why TF2 took off instead of games like RtCW, or why Overwatch is taking off and Quake Arena will drown in a puddle of tears), it's true of character-action games (and the reason there's such a bitter divide between DMC4 and DmC fans), and it's doubly, triply, quadruply true of MOBAs.
That's not to say DOTA2's characters are bad--the MOBAs with bad characters are flat-out fucking dead--but even a small difference in magnitude in this category is magnified a thousand times over. This is the fulcrum.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
More often than not people are incredibly bad at judging when a game is over in dota.
People are too scoreboard focused. Double digit kill deficits are a lot of times not that meaningful in pubs.
Can't remember the exact menu option until I get home but leeg had more attack move options, doto as far as I could find only had a basic attack move click which I hate because using just the mouse feels really clunky for me
Leage has an option to essentially smartcast attack move which I couldn't find in doto
I can understand many like this feature, but I hate giving up and I have won plenty of games where it was certain we would lose but somehow managed to turn the tide and win. Games which would guaranteed have been forfeited if the option was available.
Even today I lost a 5v4 game which suddenly turned around at the 30 minute mark, a game which otherwise most certainly would have ended in a forfeit.
If I am doing super good in LoL, I just want to give them free kills to make sure the game doesn't end too early. You finally get to mid game when the game finally picks up and starts getting fun to just forfeit and start all over again. Boring.
I'm not sure when you checked, but the customization-options menu has been pretty comprehensive for some time now.
the smartcast attack thing is an option there as well
Hmm, I know that smartcast was added for spell/items a while back, but I don't think there's any option for it for attack move. You could probably get a custom binding set up where pressing a would trigger the left click automatically to get the same effect, but that's obviously not as easy.
His roommates and myself included have stopped dota to play LoL on a few occasions. Each time, the DotA players have never felt like LoL was for them and that there was more downtime between fights, and it's entirely possible that the inverse is true for the LoL player. However the way he reacts to playing dota is almost as though he is disgusted and only wants to stick with his comfort zone which is understandable. I just find that to be stubborn in my perspective.
I've considered giving this a try on a few occasions and may bring it up again in the near future. Since the years have passed, it's gotten more and more difficult for our core group to get online at the same time with jobs and such but could still be fun for a weekend project. Now our parties normally only have about 3 people online at any given time when we play unless we're at a LAN.
EDIT: I'm also a dirty Techies player (Even post nerf) so take that FWIW
there is a setting in the menu called "quick attack" which is what he wants
Ragnar Blackmane
Member
Man, the OP is so one-sided it's not funny anymore.
Some reasons why I vastly prefer LoL over Dota 2, prepare for a wall of text:
- More charming and interesting character designs, each champ looks unique while Dota 2 has some issues with things looking rather bland and generic.
- More humour and characters with actual names, varied personalities and backstory rather than "Crystal Maiden", "Bounty Hunter" or "Anti-Mage". Sure, Dota 2 does have some named characters, but in the end they are all just mostly random dudes battling out in the arena just cause. They just can't compete with the likes of Teemo or Ahri.
- I don't need grimdark and edgy in every single game, I prefer the colorful, artsy and charming design of characters and the cell-shading and hand-drawn artwork of the maps, with more attention to fun little details. It also means that the game runs far better on toasters while not looking worse than Dota 2's more 'realistic' approach depending on your tastes and preferences..
- The skins are way, WAY better and varied with different animations, particle effects, various idle, taunt, teleport and dance animations with all-around more charm and personality. I ended roaring with laughter when I saw a different player's Sailor Moon-esque Star Guardian Lux pulling off a the intro dance of a Pretty Cure character with fitting Magical Girl soundtrack to boot. Popstar Ahri does the dance moves of a K-Pop band and can even do a hilarious partner dance with a giant rock jungle creep. Talk about attention to detail and clever pop culture references.
- Clever. fair and well done loot box system that enables you to get premium content that you could only buy with cash in the past, particularly skins (yes, including those maligned €25 skins) completely free at a very good pace, resulting in a great motivator to continue playing and offers a great sense of achievement outside the usual stuff you get to unlock. It does not even impact in-match gameplay, as the system rewards you for playing well. It also motivates you to try out different champs and learn how to play well with them.
As far as the gameplay itself is concerned:
- More than one map and several game modes to occasionally switch things up with ARAM or Pentakill or Ultra Rapid Fire for extra hilarity.
- More streamlined gameplay doesn't necessarily end up in a worse game, it can be a plus if the game plays more fluently, you don't have to bother with extra busywork and bloated stuff like having to find that hidden store in the jungle that sells specific items you need in several build paths for the other store back at your spawn (just... why)? LoL is a plenty complicated, difficult and deep game with a serious learning curve already, to the point I'm still surprised that the mainstream took such a liking to it in the first place.
- Less rough edges where features that were a result of limitations of the RTS nature of Warcraft 3 or the time and thus the original DOTA were imported into DOTA 2 as "features". Talking about constantly having to left click your hero to take control after clicking on some other object or donkey specifically. Nothing is more annoying than being attacked while you still got that fricking donkey selected and have to messily regain control of your hero.
- Shorter cooldowns put more focus on abilities while still punishing you if you don't use them right/use them at the wrong time. It also puts more focus on champion spell synergies in teamfights.
- Denying is a rather disputed mechanic. Some like it, others don't.
- Far easier to get into and not completely overwhelming you with 100+ characters at the beginning. LoLs beginner roster is custom tailored to be effective but easy to play, getting more champions is a matter of 2-3 games if you stick to the plentiful 400 IP champs and getting one champ at a time makes it easier for you to get good playing him/her before getting the next.
- People doing badly or ending up on the back foot are punished more than enough by having a poor income and feeding the other team gold and levels, without getting further punished by losing their own gold on top of it. This makes the following point even more important because...
- ...I don't have to continue playing a completely loopsided game for more than 20 minutes, when the opposing team is fed to the point of being unbeatable and you stand no chance in hell to win or turn the match around. Dota2 forces me to waste another 30 minutes watching as my team gets snowballed and steamrolled before I get to play another match (so much fun). LoL doesn't. Riot is even implementing another system allowing a surrender within the first three minutes if you get handicapped by afk players.
Outside the game:
- Riot does far more marketing, activily works to get more publicity even in niche markets and has way better community support and interaction (particularly outside E-sports).
On top of it the elitist attitude (bordering on superiority-complex) of a considerable amount of Dota players and their constant belitteling of League players (or rather anyone who dares to play/prefer League over Dota2, filthy mainstream casuals all), even in this thread, annoys the hell out of me. League has it's own strengths and things it does better and/or differently than Dota2 and people might actually prefer it as a result, just frickin deal with it.
To sum things up: League has way more charme for me and I find it simply more fun. Overwatch vs. Battleborn springs to mind.
Some reasons why I vastly prefer LoL over Dota 2, prepare for a wall of text:
- More charming and interesting character designs, each champ looks unique while Dota 2 has some issues with things looking rather bland and generic.
- More humour and characters with actual names, varied personalities and backstory rather than "Crystal Maiden", "Bounty Hunter" or "Anti-Mage". Sure, Dota 2 does have some named characters, but in the end they are all just mostly random dudes battling out in the arena just cause. They just can't compete with the likes of Teemo or Ahri.
- I don't need grimdark and edgy in every single game, I prefer the colorful, artsy and charming design of characters and the cell-shading and hand-drawn artwork of the maps, with more attention to fun little details. It also means that the game runs far better on toasters while not looking worse than Dota 2's more 'realistic' approach depending on your tastes and preferences..
- The skins are way, WAY better and varied with different animations, particle effects, various idle, taunt, teleport and dance animations with all-around more charm and personality. I ended roaring with laughter when I saw a different player's Sailor Moon-esque Star Guardian Lux pulling off a the intro dance of a Pretty Cure character with fitting Magical Girl soundtrack to boot. Popstar Ahri does the dance moves of a K-Pop band and can even do a hilarious partner dance with a giant rock jungle creep. Talk about attention to detail and clever pop culture references.
- Clever. fair and well done loot box system that enables you to get premium content that you could only buy with cash in the past, particularly skins (yes, including those maligned €25 skins) completely free at a very good pace, resulting in a great motivator to continue playing and offers a great sense of achievement outside the usual stuff you get to unlock. It does not even impact in-match gameplay, as the system rewards you for playing well. It also motivates you to try out different champs and learn how to play well with them.
As far as the gameplay itself is concerned:
- More than one map and several game modes to occasionally switch things up with ARAM or Pentakill or Ultra Rapid Fire for extra hilarity.
- More streamlined gameplay doesn't necessarily end up in a worse game, it can be a plus if the game plays more fluently, you don't have to bother with extra busywork and bloated stuff like having to find that hidden store in the jungle that sells specific items you need in several build paths for the other store back at your spawn (just... why)? LoL is a plenty complicated, difficult and deep game with a serious learning curve already, to the point I'm still surprised that the mainstream took such a liking to it in the first place.
- Less rough edges where features that were a result of limitations of the RTS nature of Warcraft 3 or the time and thus the original DOTA were imported into DOTA 2 as "features". Talking about constantly having to left click your hero to take control after clicking on some other object or donkey specifically. Nothing is more annoying than being attacked while you still got that fricking donkey selected and have to messily regain control of your hero.
- Shorter cooldowns put more focus on abilities while still punishing you if you don't use them right/use them at the wrong time. It also puts more focus on champion spell synergies in teamfights.
- Denying is a rather disputed mechanic. Some like it, others don't.
- Far easier to get into and not completely overwhelming you with 100+ characters at the beginning. LoLs beginner roster is custom tailored to be effective but easy to play, getting more champions is a matter of 2-3 games if you stick to the plentiful 400 IP champs and getting one champ at a time makes it easier for you to get good playing him/her before getting the next.
- People doing badly or ending up on the back foot are punished more than enough by having a poor income and feeding the other team gold and levels, without getting further punished by losing their own gold on top of it. This makes the following point even more important because...
- ...I don't have to continue playing a completely loopsided game for more than 20 minutes, when the opposing team is fed to the point of being unbeatable and you stand no chance in hell to win or turn the match around. Dota2 forces me to waste another 30 minutes watching as my team gets snowballed and steamrolled before I get to play another match (so much fun). LoL doesn't. Riot is even implementing another system allowing a surrender within the first three minutes if you get handicapped by afk players.
Outside the game:
- Riot does far more marketing, activily works to get more publicity even in niche markets and has way better community support and interaction (particularly outside E-sports).
On top of it the elitist attitude (bordering on superiority-complex) of a considerable amount of Dota players and their constant belitteling of League players (or rather anyone who dares to play/prefer League over Dota2, filthy mainstream casuals all), even in this thread, annoys the hell out of me. League has it's own strengths and things it does better and/or differently than Dota2 and people might actually prefer it as a result, just frickin deal with it.
To sum things up: League has way more charme for me and I find it simply more fun. Overwatch vs. Battleborn springs to mind.
I cant believe some LoL fans are saying the like it more cause is easier, hard and complex games can be fun too, mastering all the techniques feels more rewarding than learning something that everyone can do.
LoL is more popular cause it did a good job on the marketing at first, now word of mouth cant be stopped.
LoL is more popular cause it did a good job on the marketing at first, now word of mouth cant be stopped.
I know many people will disagree but champion design and balance is much better in League.
That is coming from a guy which has DOTA 2 as his most played (by far) on steam.
I'm finding kiting and team fighting in league much more challenging and interesting than in DOTA and i just can't go back to a world where most champions have a lot of their kit noninteractive and rarely creative.
Champs like Yasuo, Fiora, Bard Etc are, for me, unmatched by anything in DOTA in terms of plays ult and fun
Plus - Riot actively changes deep stuff every season, but makes it better in the long run. New drakes, trinket wards, making pinks visible etc. were really good changes.
That is coming from a guy which has DOTA 2 as his most played (by far) on steam.
I'm finding kiting and team fighting in league much more challenging and interesting than in DOTA and i just can't go back to a world where most champions have a lot of their kit noninteractive and rarely creative.
Champs like Yasuo, Fiora, Bard Etc are, for me, unmatched by anything in DOTA in terms of plays ult and fun
Plus - Riot actively changes deep stuff every season, but makes it better in the long run. New drakes, trinket wards, making pinks visible etc. were really good changes.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
old manatee
Banned
More people hike up the base of Everest than make it to the top.
It was already a very casual moba when it launched (for the time) and as time's gone by it's been trying to simplify and streamline it's systems as hard as it can.
I started playing since the Leona patch and quit recently. There's hardly any strategy involved anymore and with few exceptions the champions released tend to have simple overloaded kits.
I feel this huge push towards reaction times and "plays" rather than proper teamwork and strategy. Probably the reason I stopped playing.
LOL will most likely still keep the userbase advantage over any other moba just because it's constantly aiming for the lowest denominator.
I started playing since the Leona patch and quit recently. There's hardly any strategy involved anymore and with few exceptions the champions released tend to have simple overloaded kits.
I feel this huge push towards reaction times and "plays" rather than proper teamwork and strategy. Probably the reason I stopped playing.
LOL will most likely still keep the userbase advantage over any other moba just because it's constantly aiming for the lowest denominator.
Dota fans always use the word harder. It's not. it has a higher floor and is more complex. it's not 'harder'
Making your game complex does not improve it, not even from a competitive aspect. Imagine if you play chess but force players to play 12 games at once and have a different handicap in each one, call it SUPER CHESS. Yes, it is more complex than chess, but at its core it's just chess with a bunch of tacked on bullshit, and that doesn't make it a better game.
I'm surprised you put this as an "advantage" for DotA 2 - it's a disadvantage in any other genre/category.
Video games have advanced a lot since the 90s. The field of "game design" has dramatically progressed.
Is it really a "good thing" that DotA 2 maintains much of the same gameplay as DotA 1? I'd argue no. Sure, you might enjoy mechanics like denies and couriers, but I don't think the average player actually experiences a net positive of joy from those mechanics.
Also, it's hard to overstate the switching costs. Switching from LoL to DotA 2 means learning 100 heroes all over again (and vice versa). LoL being first-to-market is very significant.
Riot caters to more than just the competitive eSports crowd. Across stuff like their lore dumps, the League Community YouTube Channel and everything else there's a lot of reasons to care about League of Legends outside of getting better at the game. I'm a Dota guy myself but I've always been a little envious of Riot's focus on expanding their world and supporting the fans who don't care about being good. I guess that's what happens when you have a whole company dedicated to supporting one product.
I think we played different Dota 2s. While not as stylized as League of Legends, it's definitely not "grimdark", "edgy" (Terrorblade aside) or "realistic". The artstyle kind of reminds me of a fantasy Pixar or Dreamworks movie with painterly texturework while League of Legends is more like a Saturday morning cartoon/anime. The characters aren't random dudes battling in an arena either and are just as fleshed out as 95% of League of Legends characters. Also, all of the Dota heroes are named. The community is just really weird and all over the place with what names were adopted for the heroes during the DoTA Allstars days. We'll see what Valve decides to do with the naming when they start making brand new heroes.
I think we played different Dota 2s. While not as stylized as League of Legends, it's definitely not "grimdark", "edgy" (Terrorblade aside) or "realistic". The artstyle kind of reminds me of a fantasy Pixar or Dreamworks movie with painterly texturework while League of Legends is more like a Saturday morning cartoon/anime. The characters aren't random dudes battling in an arena either and are just as fleshed out as 95% of League of Legends characters. Also, all of the Dota heroes are named. The community is just really weird and all over the place with what names were adopted for the heroes during the DoTA Allstars days. We'll see what Valve decides to do with the naming when they start making brand new heroes.
Imperfected
Member
I agree, everyone should stop playing League and DOTA2 and just play Europa Universalis.
QuantumSquid
Member
it is way less demanding
my craptop with intel hd 4000 graphics runs league at its screen's native resolution on medium settings at 60fps
dota 2 runs at a stuttery 45-60 on low settings with the render resolution at 70% (which makes the game look blurry and terrible)
my craptop with intel hd 4000 graphics runs league at its screen's native resolution on medium settings at 60fps
dota 2 runs at a stuttery 45-60 on low settings with the render resolution at 70% (which makes the game look blurry and terrible)
Ghost Dad the Whip
Member
Almost every decision Riot made that branched away from the O.G. Dota model was an improvement in making the game more fun for more people.
They also spent a lot of time and money organizing a somewhat exciting and almost entierly dependable E-sports package to help increase and maintain interest.
The 'free' stuff you get from Dota2 is overshadowed by the time commitment you make to get that stuff in LoL... once you are in one camp you won't likely leave. They did it first and they did it better.
Dota2 is solid but fuggedaboutit
They also spent a lot of time and money organizing a somewhat exciting and almost entierly dependable E-sports package to help increase and maintain interest.
The 'free' stuff you get from Dota2 is overshadowed by the time commitment you make to get that stuff in LoL... once you are in one camp you won't likely leave. They did it first and they did it better.
Dota2 is solid but fuggedaboutit
Head start, pandering character design, much more approachable and less punishing.
Things like multi-unit controls and fluid laning / hero roles makes dota incredibly daunting to get into. I am baffled how anyone could get into Dota without having friends to actively play with and teach them.
Things like multi-unit controls and fluid laning / hero roles makes dota incredibly daunting to get into. I am baffled how anyone could get into Dota without having friends to actively play with and teach them.
GankzyMcfly
Member
From what i remember the league community seemed more welcoming, Dota community has always felt toxic to me even since wc3
Iorv3th
Member
Dota 2 didn't even have a tutorial for the longest time. It was hard to transition to after league because the way league laid everything out and made it easy to understand. That and everytime i tried to play dota nobody chatted at all so getting friendly advice wasn't happening.
Holundrian
Unconfirmed Member
Dunno even the current one is laughably useless.
ScatheZombie
Member
But most of the people playing LoL and DotA 2 today probably haven't played original DotA, so the 'it's a sequel' factor is mostly lost. For example, by all accounts, EQ2 should have destroyed WoW. Because it was the sequel to the biggest MMO before WoW.
Valve is really only the 'fan favorite' in the NA/EU regions. Successful MOBAs are larger than NA/EU (i.e. Koreans don't have the same reaction to Valve that you necessarily do).
Time and time again, gamers have shown that variety is largerly irrelevant. A game with infinite classes and builds will still have 90% of the population using cookie-cutter nonsense. A game with 30+ maps will have the same 5 or less on rotation on 90% of private servers. Content variety isn't a selling point after initial sales because it generally translates into doing a whole bunch of things less-than-great instead of doing one or two things the best.
It's also easier to play and get into, with a lower skill ceiling. It also had a larger established community and millions of players before DotA 2 even released. It does a better job of branding and marketing world-wide. And it acknowledges that Asia is it's primary market instead of sending it's D-tier community managers and broadcasters overseas.
Alex
Member
League hit first and did an admirable job of alleviating aging mechanics and tedium in a stagnating genre. Subjectively, I agree that it also has a much better personality and Riot's support tends to be better.
Additionally, some people need to understand that in the end no one really cares about the F2P model. It is a nice bullet point to have but you're typically not going to jump ship from a game you prefer just because it might cost you more, especially with these hobbyist games.
Additionally, some people need to understand that in the end no one really cares about the F2P model. It is a nice bullet point to have but you're typically not going to jump ship from a game you prefer just because it might cost you more, especially with these hobbyist games.
donutzsick
Member
Dota just is too dense and not as fun compared to league imo. The characters are bland and boring as fuck in Dota while league chars are charming and invite tons of fan art, cosplay, and other community generated content.
Terbinator
Member
Lol, Darren Brown did exactly this.
idk it doesn't really seem implausible to me that some people would prefer a game that isn't as demanding as dota
DarkHeartedKill
Member
People use the acronym LoL in speech a lot more frequent than Dota.
ScatheZombie
Member
Truth.
I know it's come up before in regards to the F2P model, maybe hots maybe league, I forget which, but there's something to be said for not overwhelming new players with choice as well. Dota players tend to scoff at the notion but it has a lot of basis in reality. You're talking about giving someone over 100 options before they even get into the game, which you can't actually make an informed one about until you're already intimately familiar with the game. Yeah, eventually you need to at least vaguely learn them all to compete, but there's a far cry from a basic understanding of what heroes might do to you, and a complete understanding of all of them. if I choose between say 10 at the start, I might have 2 per role that I'm looking at and can actually hone in on their abilities and make a decision I feel ok about being stuck with for the next 30 minutes. I might not know the other team super well, but you'll figure it out quickly enough (Whoa! that other guy jumped on me form the bush, now I know to watch for that this game).
I brought up Rosewater before and someone tried to warn against using him as an example: Sorry, he's not infallible, but he's very insightful, deal with it. In this specific example it's about focus testing as well and actual results from magic gameplay, so I feel confident that it also translates to how your average inexperienced player is going to react to a new video game as well: When you have too much complexity and choice in front of an inexperienced player, they tend to freeze up and be unable to actually make smart decisions. Even if they come up with a good solution to the state of what is in front of them, they second guess themselves constantly because it's overwhelming. This stops being a problem once you're an experienced player, but people aren't going to get to that point if the game makes it unappealing to do so from the get go. It's better to have a few meaningful decisions visible to the player at a time and they can discover the other levels of complexity at their own pace.
What this means for hero selection? Even if I vaguely know I want to try to be a carry in dota, I've got over 60 options, and I'm a player that doesn't know any of them. So even if I were to want to try them once to get an idea, I'd have to play over 60 games. In League if I'm a new player, I've got 2-3 each week. I can try those 2-3, decide which one I like, play a bunch with that one, and try some more next week. if I really liked the one from the prior week, I've earned enough to unlock them for free most likely. Repeat every week. Unless you're a pro you probably don't remotely need that many heroes, in dota or league. You might fancy yourself a badass counter pick master, but the reality is you're probably significantly better with 2-3 heroes in a role and are better off picking those most of the time regardless.
Imperfected
Member
But guys, what about HotS?
haha, it is VERY easy to see who has played either of these games in this thread
thats pretty subjective tho
and you talk like there is no fan art, cosplay or community content in the dota 2 community. like what?????
i really like hots, but man, blizz was waaaaaay too late for this ride :/
i think hots still has a very healthy amount of players tho?
thats pretty subjective tho
and you talk like there is no fan art, cosplay or community content in the dota 2 community. like what?????
i really like hots, but man, blizz was waaaaaay too late for this ride :/
i think hots still has a very healthy amount of players tho?