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Sony sues George 'geohot' Hotz and fail0verflow over PS3 jailbreak.

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Ploid 3.0

Ploid 3.0

Member
mercenar1e said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f7NDx_EX94&feature=player_embedded


this fucking blows.. i can see this being an issue with future multiplayer games and for this reason i hope SONY perm bans any jail broken console connected to the PSN
Click to expand...

Holy crap, PSN had a good run. I guess I'll have to stick to non competitive games in the future. I hope PS4 is locked down so tight that it can squeeze blood out of a rock. Buying official memory/hdd/etc will suck but hopefully it'll be a one time thing.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
sangreal said:
Claiming to be someone you are not is fraud. Solving a math problem and sharing the answer is not.
Click to expand...
A math problem? LOL. Ok. Also, only Sony is allowed to use that signature as part of their licensing. They have a license with the publisher to sign said game and publish it.
 
R

Raist

Banned
itxaka said:
So you have no rights to rip your music from cd to mp3, filter it, add echoes to it, put your voice in the middle of it or remix it for non-profit?
Click to expand...

Unless you have an explicit authorization from the original author, no, you can't do that at all. Even sampling like a second of a tune is theorically illegal.
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
test_account said:
I dont know, but is giving out a combination to something like that legal? Or what about pin numbers to credit cards for example?
Click to expand...
well, there are specific laws surrounding banking, but someone's locker combination for their bike or car or safe? yeah, totally legal.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
wolfmat said:
A digital signature is merely a sequence of bytes. That is exactly what it's been treated as in the law so far. Because that is what it is.

Hence, it is your obligation to make that signature unavailable to others. If you fail at that, it's open season.

A person's signature has a different, very specific legal meaning. It's actually pretty interesting.
Click to expand...

So if someone finds your digital signature, and publishes on the internet for everyone to use, that's NOT illegal? Are you kidding me? Just because you didn't "secure it enough?"
 
X

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Raist said:
Unless you have an explicit authorization from the original author, no, you can't do that at all. Even sampling like a second of a tune is theorically illegal.
Click to expand...
Are you saying Fair Use doesn't cover these use cases at all? Seriously?
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
Bojanglez said:
So publishing the keys is fine, but using them in software is not?
Click to expand...

Using it in software is also legal.... you do however have to create your own functions for generating the software with signatures. Fail0verflow and Geohot did this. This lawsuit is basically a big of excrement.
 
wolfmat

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
phosphor112 said:
So if someone finds your digital signature, and publishes on the internet for everyone to use, that's NOT illegal? Are you kidding me? Just because you didn't "secure it enough?"
Click to expand...
The illegal part is what you do with such a number, not possessing or communicating it.

You can also make a case for connecting said signature with, say, some identity, which would enable identity theft.

Another example for misuse is, for instance, top-secret digital data by itself. It's also just a number. Everything digital can be reduced to a number. Your whole computer's current state can be reduced to a number. The mere publishing wouldn't actually be meaningful though.

So as you see, it's not a trivial matter. And it's certainly not in the realm of the discussion regarding a person's signature. I was merely commenting on the latter fallacy.
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
The Faceless Master said:
well, there are specific laws surrounding banking, but someone's locker combination for their bike or car or safe? yeah, totally legal.
Click to expand...
Ok, i see. But isnt giving out decryption keys kinda a big deal (or at least it can be), kinda like it is a big deal to give out pin numbers to credit cards? Seeing that there is a law against giving out pin numbers, maybe there any specific laws out giving out decryption keys, or?
 
K

KtSlime

Member
phosphor112 said:
A math problem? LOL. Ok. Also, only Sony is allowed to use that signature as part of their licensing. They have a license with the publisher to sign said game and publish it.
Click to expand...

That'd be fine and all but Sony does not write the law the government does. Simply because Sony makes license agreements with partners in regards to this key being protected does not make it illegal to share this key. It is called a trade secret, trade secrets are protected by NDAs from being leaked, they are not protected from hackers using math.

Simply put, if Sony didn't want people to figure out the key, they should have used a random number.
 
R

Raist

Banned
XiaNaphryz said:
Are you saying Fair Use doesn't cover these use cases at all? Seriously?
Click to expand...

That's why I said theorically, because there might be exceptions and some authors can be cool with it for instance. But officially, you can't do that. It also depends on the kind of media, the length (or %age etc) and other factors. Music and any kind of graphic art are extremely restrictive. And it also depends on the country. AFAIK there's a bit more tolerance in the US< for instance.
 
K

KtSlime

Member
Raist said:
Unless you have an explicit authorization from the original author, no, you can't do that at all. Even sampling like a second of a tune is theorically illegal.
Click to expand...

Once again, the author does not own the song, the Zeitgeist does. This means that what rights to the song the author has are GRANTED to him by the government by what we call COPYRIGHT. There are provisions under this COPYRIGHT thing that grant rights to everyone else as well. Some of those rights include FAIR USE, which enables people to 'sample like a second of a tune'. Another provision under COPYRIGHT is that it EXPIRES, returning it to the PUBLIC DOMAIN, and once again under the watchful eye of the Zeitgeist.
 
A

Articalys

Member
Takk said:
Sorry if already posted:
David Touretzky of Carnegie Melon has mirrored the jailbreak stuff asserting first amendment rights. Basically tells the Sony lawyers to go fuck themselves.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/GeoHot/
Click to expand...
I know I am late on commenting on this but that is amazing. Another reason I am proud of my alma mater.
Bonus points for using the blink tag too.
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
test_account said:
Ok, i see. But isnt giving out decryption keys kinda a big deal (or at least it can be), kinda like it is a big deal to give out pin numbers to credit cards? Seeing that there is a law against giving out pin numbers, maybe there any specific laws out giving out decryption keys, or?
Click to expand...
actually, i just asked someone who should know better than me, and apparently it could be totally legal to post a credit card number and pin online, depending on how you obtained the information.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
wolfmat said:
The illegal part is what you do with such a number, not possessing or communicating it.

You can also make a case for connecting said signature with, say, some identity, which would enable identity theft.

Another example for misuse is, for instance, top-secret digital data by itself. It's also just a number. Everything digital can be reduced to a number. Your whole computer's current state can be reduced to a number. The mere publishing wouldn't actually be meaningful though.

So as you see, it's not a trivial matter. And it's certainly not in the realm of the discussion regarding a person's signature. I was merely commenting on the latter fallacy.
Click to expand...

The thing you call "just a number" was a barrier protecting companies from millions, if not billion of dollars of investments. Regardless of freedom of speech, giving everyone a key to get into a room (that doesn't belong to you, mind you) filled with gold is illegal. Regardless if you only wanted to put a god damn gold fish in a bowl in there to accent the gold, you just gave everyone free reign to do what ever the fuck they wanted. And believe it or not, we aren't "free" to do what ever the fuck we want with what we buy. You're a fool to think that.

ivedoneyourmom said:
That'd be fine and all but Sony does not write the law the government does. Simply because Sony makes license agreements with partners in regards to this key being protected does not make it illegal to share this key. It is called a trade secret, trade secrets are protected by NDAs from being leaked, they are not protected from hackers using math.

Simply put, if Sony didn't want people to figure out the key, they should have used a random number.
Click to expand...

A trade secret is coca cola's ingredient list.

A security code is what that key is, and as I said above, was protecting companies of millions of dollars of investments.
 
M

MrNyarlathotep

Banned
phosphor112 said:
The thing you call "just a number" was a barrier protecting companies from millions, if not billion of dollars of investments. Regardless of freedom of speech, giving everyone a key to get into a room (that doesn't belong to you, mind you) filled with gold is illegal. Regardless if you only wanted to put a god damn gold fish in a bowl in there to accent the gold, you just gave everyone free reign to do what ever the fuck they wanted. And believe it or not, we aren't "free" to do what ever the fuck we want with what we buy. You're a fool to think that.
Click to expand...

Playstation 3 is a room full of gold now?
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
MrNyarlathotep said:
Playstation 3 is a room full of gold now?
Click to expand...
Apparently, cuz that's what all you guys are pretending to be it as. Making such a big deal about getting into said room with it's gold plated MKV players and backup loaders.
 
The Faceless Master

The Faceless Master

Member
phosphor112 said:
The thing you call "just a number" was a barrier protecting companies from millions, if not billion of dollars of investments. Regardless of freedom of speech, giving everyone a key to get into a room (that doesn't belong to you, mind you) filled with gold is illegal. Regardless if you only wanted to put a god damn gold fish in a bowl in there to accent the gold, you just gave everyone free reign to do what ever the fuck they wanted. And believe it or not, we aren't "free" to do what ever the fuck we want with what we buy. You're a fool to think that.
Click to expand...
how would giving everyone a key to that room be illegal? actually, this reminded me of the time that someone made a key to a series of e-voting machines because of a picture of a key posted on the manufacturer's website or something. all the machines used the same key!!!
 
J

Jobiensis

Member
phosphor112 said:
The thing you call "just a number" was a barrier protecting companies from millions, if not billion of dollars of investments. Regardless of freedom of speech, giving everyone a key to get into a room (that doesn't belong to you, mind you) filled with gold is illegal. Regardless if you only wanted to put a god damn gold fish in a bowl in there to accent the gold, you just gave everyone free reign to do what ever the fuck they wanted. And believe it or not, we aren't "free" to do what ever the fuck we want with what we buy. You're a fool to think that.
Click to expand...

This discussion is going into stupid mode (as if it wasn't already there). This is exactly like the DeCSS rulings. I guess that vault being opened killed DVD too.
 
T

TheChewyWaffles

Member
phosphor112 said:
The thing you call "just a number" was a barrier protecting companies from millions, if not billion of dollars of investments. Regardless of freedom of speech, giving everyone a key to get into a room (that doesn't belong to you, mind you) filled with gold is illegal. Regardless if you only wanted to put a god damn gold fish in a bowl in there to accent the gold, you just gave everyone free reign to do what ever the fuck they wanted. And believe it or not, we aren't "free" to do what ever the fuck we want with what we buy. You're a fool to think that.



A trade secret is coca cola's ingredient list.

A security code is what that key is, and as I said above, was protecting companies of millions of dollars of investments.
Click to expand...

Holy shit, what a good little consumer you are. Corporations just love people like you who beat their drums for them. My god.
 
G

Godslay

Banned
phosphor112 said:
The thing you call "just a number" was a barrier protecting companies from millions, if not billion of dollars of investments. Regardless of freedom of speech, giving everyone a key to get into a room (that doesn't belong to you, mind you) filled with gold is illegal. Regardless if you only wanted to put a god damn gold fish in a bowl in there to accent the gold, you just gave everyone free reign to do what ever the fuck they wanted. And believe it or not, we aren't "free" to do what ever the fuck we want with what we buy. You're a fool to think that.


A trade secret is coca cola's ingredient list.

A security code is what that key is, and as I said above, was protecting companies of millions of dollars of investments.
Click to expand...

Then the means to protect that number should have been much more robust than what they were. We are free to do what we want with what we buy. If you don't want me to do what I will with the product I purchased, then don't put it on the market.
 
wolfmat

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
phosphor112 said:
The thing you call "just a number" was a barrier protecting companies from millions, if not billion of dollars of investments. Regardless of freedom of speech, giving everyone a key to get into a room (that doesn't belong to you, mind you) filled with gold is illegal. Regardless if you only wanted to put a god damn gold fish in a bowl in there to accent the gold, you just gave everyone free reign to do what ever the fuck they wanted. And believe it or not, we aren't "free" to do what ever the fuck we want with what we buy. You're a fool to think that.
Click to expand...
You're inferring a lot of things. I haven't posted my opinion regarding the PS3 jailbreak yet (still thinking about it, it's pretty impressive hacking work in any case though). We were only discussing the abstract topic of digital signatures above.

The key isn't always a key. I can post something like 1a34bb0a9e85f632bfa13, and you wouldn't know how to handle it. It could be a key, could be a zipped "Hello World" in some obscure language, it could be anything. So the number by itself is still just a number.

I'm certainly not a fool, thank you very much.

And we are free to do whatever we want with what we buy as long as what we're doing does not clash with the law. So there's a determination to be made. Sure I can't throw my monitor at old ladies on the street. I know that.
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
The Faceless Master said:
actually, i just asked someone who should know better than me, and apparently it could be totally legal to post a credit card number and pin online, depending on how you obtained the information.
Click to expand...
Ah ok, i see, thanks for the info :) It seems a bit crazy to me that such a thing is legal, since posting pin numbers online like that can easily be abused. But i guess that the law can be defined in different ways, and as you say, it probably depends on how you obtained the information.


Godslay said:
Then the means to protect that number should have been much more robust than what they were. We are free to do what we want with what we buy. If you don't want me to do what I will with the product I purchased, then don't put it on the market.
Click to expand...
True, but there are some exceptions. For example if i buy a car, i cant change the license plates to whatever i want. I dont know exactly how the laws are regarding modifying a console is though, i guess it depends from country to country, but i just wanted to mention that there are some restrictions on things that you cant do, even if you buy it and own it.
 
P

phosphor112

Banned
Godslay said:
Then the means to protect that number should have been much more robust than what they were. We are free to do what we want with what we buy. If you don't want me to do what I will with the product I purchased, then don't put it on the market.
Click to expand...

LOL!! I've said this once and you guys continue to ignore it. So I can modify a semi auto AK to full auto? I can buy a computer and stash some child porn on it? I can buy thermite and some other shit and make a bomb out of it?

NO NO NO NO NO.


OH LOOK THE IDIOTS ARE HAVING FUN WITH THIS NOW!! Refresh page every five minutes, get a new thread!
 
S

Shaneus

Member
Playground is a better analogy. Sony charged you to enter it but said "you can only swing this direction", "The merry-go-round only operates at this speed", "you can only do such and such". Now we can do whatever the fuck we want in this playground. Room full of gold? Worst analogy ever.

Edit: PS. You're aware that in that pic there's a link to pirated software, right?
Edit #2: I don't think it is. Just be careful with posting that stuff, either way.
 
J

Jobiensis

Member
Hey GAF, my security code is

Code: 
53 75 63 6B 6D 79 44 69 63 6B

You are all accessories and have broken the corporatist's law. Keep your hands off my gold! Be ready for your summons tomorrow morning.

Code: 
By reading this post, you agree to my EULA of giving me all your money if you break my terms and read my code, disassemble or reverse engineer it and you may get triple damages. I also may send over a buddy to kick your ass just cause. The cat is out of the bag
 
D

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
phosphor112 said:
LOL!! I've said this once and you guys continue to ignore it. So I can modify a semi auto AK to full auto? I can buy a computer and stash some child porn on it? I can buy thermite and some other shit and make a bomb out of it?

NO NO NO NO NO.
Click to expand...
Is modding your PS3 going to be a dangerous weapon or exploit children?
 
T

test_account

XP-39C²
Jobiensis said:
Hey GAF, my security code is

Code: 
53 75 63 6B 6D 79 44 69 63 6B

You are all accessories and have broken the corporatist's law. Keep your hands off my gold! Be ready for your summons tomorrow morning.

Code: 
By reading this post, you agree to my EULA of giving me all your money if you break my terms and read my code, disassemble or reverse engineer it and you may get triple damages. I also may send over a buddy to kick your ass just cause. The cat is out of the bag
Click to expand...
What is the security code for? :)
 
J

JonathanEx

Member
Shaneus said:
Playground is a better analogy. Sony charged you to enter it but said "you can only swing this direction", "The merry-go-round only operates at this speed", "you can only do such and such". Now we can do whatever the fuck we want in this playground. Room full of gold? Worst analogy ever.
Click to expand...
BUT NOW YOU CAN BRING SLIDES FROM OTHER PLAYGROUNDS IN TO THE PLAYGROUND WITHOUT PAYING.

Or sand

I dunno.
 
wolfmat

wolfmat

Confirmed Asshole
phosphor112 said:
LOL!! I've said this once and you guys continue to ignore it. So I can modify a semi auto AK to full auto? I can buy a computer and stash some child porn on it? I can buy thermite and some other shit and make a bomb out of it?

NO NO NO NO NO.


OH LOOK THE IDIOTS ARE HAVING FUN WITH THIS NOW!! Refresh page every five minutes, get a new thread!
*pic*
Click to expand...
I'm getting the feeling that you're just here to tell us things we already knew, or to shit on our intelligence. Your professor simply said something wrong, it's no big deal.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
JonathanEx said:
BUT NOW YOU CAN BRING SLIDES FROM OTHER PLAYGROUNDS IN TO THE PLAYGROUND WITHOUT PAYING.

Or sand

I dunno.
Click to expand...
You can play with anything you want in the playground any way you want. I guess. I give up :lol
 
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