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[Ploid 3.0]

The problem is when the hammer of ban menace is used to scare people about talking freely about the piracy implication in the security breachs of the consoles, and sometimes we create some kind of magical candy world where piracy is the exception, and all those millions of game torrent files are simply of people that have their original game in a disc but are too lazy to dump their own disc.

And if we have to discuss things as the damage that Sony argue in GeoHot demand, even if there is no way to have exact numbers about how many people is using the keys affair as a piracy exploit, we can't close our eyes to the reality and say that all of the people (or even most of the people) only want to use CFW to play XMBC. But, again, I talk about this because this is one of the topics of this thread. I didn't entered in the official homebrew thread because talking of piracy in that thread could derrail easily the legit homebrew discussion.

Also, that "I hope that you are not implying that there are pirates among us" is trying to make someone banned when you don't like what he says. Not the best way to have a positive discussion.

Magical barrier effect. It's a good way to change the focus of a good point. Much like "I'd look up the stats/proof but I have more important things to do."

 

[squatingyeti]

But regarding the PS3 hacking, personally i think that still some question remains to be answered when it comes the legal issues, for example if it should be allowed to post decryption keys to a system that isnt our own, and especially when it is impossible to revoke these encryption keys due to various reasons. With the iPhone hacking, from what i know this was based of software exploits, and this did at least give Apple a fair chance to fix their security issues. But with decryption keys that cant be revoked, this might give the company an unfair chance to fix their security system. So should companies at least be given a fair chance to fix their security issues?

It never mattered if Apple had a "fair chance to fix their security" in the exemption. In fact, it is counted on that people will continue to be able to circumvent their security, and doing so is allowed. This isn't about giving companies a fighting chance. It's about consumers being allowed to do things, despite a company's best efforts to stop them.

 

[Cruzader]

The problem is when the hammer of ban menace is used to scare people about talking freely about the piracy implication in the security breachs of the consoles, and sometimes we create some kind of magical candy world where piracy is the exception, and all those millions of game torrent files are simply of people that have their original game in a disc but are too lazy to dump their own disc.

And if we have to discuss things as the damage that Sony argue in GeoHot demand, even if there is no way to have exact numbers about how many people is using the keys affair as a piracy exploit, we can't close our eyes to the reality and say that all of the people (or even most of the people) only want to use CFW to play XMBC. But, again, I talk about this because this is one of the topics of this thread. I didn't entered in the official homebrew thread because talking of piracy in that thread could derrail easily the legit homebrew discussion.

Also, that "I hope that you are not implying that there are pirates among us" is trying to make someone banned when you don't like what he says. Not the best way to have a positive discussion.

Well said.

Hate how that's the go-to phrase pro-hackers like to use....

Again those who will be using hacks for homebrew only are the minority while the rest fuck everything up. GAF being the minority.

Also a person asked a good question but got banned for being a moron, his question was how does everyone out there play Mame emulators/CPS1/2/3 games? Do they own the actual arcade machines/boards? I'm sure that's a no since they are rare or expensive. But still go on to get some roms. That's the majority for ya. Again, GAF is in the minority so don't act like I'm accusing anyone here.

 

[DangerousDave]

Also a person asked a good question but got banned for being a moron, his question was how does everyone out there play Mame emulators/CPS1/2/3 games? Do they own the actual arcade machines/boards? I'm sure that's a no since they are rare or expensive. But still go on to get some roms. That's the majority for ya. Again, GAF is in the minority so don't act like I'm accusing anyone here.

As a mod said in another thread, Mame emulators/CPS1/2/3 games is a gray line. It's allowed to talk about them, because they are not "damaging" the industry because no one is losing sales because of this. But if you make apologize of piracy of Mame you can get a ban, but a ban of a few days.

There are other cases of similar behaviour, like in Mother 3 transladion thread, I think that is because the game was not launched in US and mods assumed that downloading the rom didn't damage Nintendo sales (there were no calls to download the rom, but the same OP talked about buying the original rom as something optional if you want to play it in Japanese, not a requisite to use the translation patch legally)

But I don't want to derrail more the topic with Mame things. I was simply asking to stop the "are you calling us pirates?" each time that anyone talks about piracy as a consequence of the encription key leaking.

 

[squatingyeti]

I don't think people are upset that you talk about the fact CFW can lead to piracy. I think people, and know as far as myself, are upset because of the constant, "only 'backups' and eumlators. No use for CFW otherwise" talk.

That type of nonsense continues because people use the argument that emulators and BM's came quickly, but there's "no homebrew" which is completely false anyway. However, that statement is completely disingenuous because it pretends that all coding is equal and completely ignores that emulators were easy to port and BM's had already been around, thus easy to code for CFW.

It's like people continue to believe anything can be coded within a week. I find that train of thought absolutely amazing.

 

[DangerousDave]

I don't think people are upset that you talk about the fact CFW can lead to piracy. I think people, and know as far as myself, are upset because of the constant, "only 'backups' and eumlators. No use for CFW otherwise" talk.

That type of nonsense continues because people use the argument that emulators and BM's came quickly, but there's "no homebrew" which is completely false anyway. However, that statement is completely disingenuous because it pretends that all coding is equal and completely ignores that emulators were easy to port and BM's had already been around, thus easy to code for CFW.

It's like people continue to believe anything can be coded within a week. I find that train of thought absolutely amazing.

Well, in this case of PS3, yes, we had the backup manager already because of the dongle guys. But in any other scene, like PSP, or DS, ROM loading is the main objective.

And is ok. There is a lot of demand. And also is something that give money to people (that can sell easier 1Tb hard drive full of games than 1Tb hard drive full of movies and XBMC). So a lot of people bring a lot of effort in this.

You only need to watch a little some "scene" forums like EOL, where people talks freely about the right of piracy the games because are very expensive. And EOL is considered a scene site (that don't allow rom or iso links), not a piracy site.

Another example, I just got a mail from a online tech shop where they offer me a "flash service" (40€ lol) for PS3 "with this option you'll be able to do your security copies of your PS3 games". No mention of homebrew, emulators (or the negative parts like not being able to safe connect PSN).

And no one here has to feel accused of anything, because GAF is probably the piracy-less videogame forum that I know. I only say that piracy (even if we don't use it) has a big impact in the scene when we talk globally, is the "money maker" part, so there will be always piracy in any device that is hacked. That is, for example, why I don't have to blame anything to FailOverflow team, that planned to trigger linux again but not deliver the master keys, but I consider what Geohot did, at least, reckless.

 

[Noshino]

Well, in this case of PS3, yes, we had the backup manager already because of the dongle guys. But in any other scene, like PSP, or DS, ROM loading is the main objective.

And is ok. There is a lot of demand. And also is something that give money to people (that can sell easier 1Tb hard drive full of games than 1Tb hard drive full of movies and XBMC). So a lot of people bring a lot of effort in this.

You only need to watch a little some "scene" forums like EOL, where people talks freely about the right of piracy the games because are very expensive. And EOL is considered a scene site (that don't allow rom or iso links), not a piracy site.

Another example, I just got a mail from a online tech shop where they offer me a "flash service" (40€ lol) for PS3 "with this option you'll be able to do your security copies of your PS3 games". No mention of homebrew, emulators (or the negative parts like not being able to safe connect PSN).

And no one here has to feel accused of anything, because GAF is probably the piracy-less videogame forum that I know. I only say that piracy (even if we don't use it) has a big impact in the scene when we talk globally, is the "money maker" part, so there will be always piracy in any device that is hacked. That is, for example, why I don't have to blame anything to FailOverflow team, that planned to trigger linux again but not deliver the master keys, but I consider what Geohot did, at least, reckless.

To add to your argument, go to south america (lived there for 14 years, Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Bolivia and Chile, haven't gone to the south east yet), the use of homebrew for anything other than piracy is close to non-existent, and we are not talking about lower class or the poor, nope, middle class and high class as well. It is a cultural thing now, to the point that you are often mocked if you buy the original version.

 

[phosphor112]

To add to your argument, go to south america (lived there for 14 years, Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Bolivia and Chile, haven't gone to the south east yet), the use of homebrew for anything other than piracy is close to non-existent, and we are not talking about lower class or the poor, nope, middle class and high class as well. It is a cultural thing now, to the point that you are often mocked if you buy the original version.

Yep, things are pretty much sold at street corners. Just boxes of games and flashing devices. Stuff sold for 5 bucks. I know the Middle East is bootleg like that too, I mean, yeah most of them are dirt poor, but some of the bootlegs there are just hilarious. Non-game related, I saw a bootleg of The Passion of the Christ, and on the back of the case, the packaging was photoshopped to say "A once in a life time comedy." Terrible, but its how it is in 3rd world countries. To get anything other than bootleg is considered a joke.

 

[Dambrosi]

I was simply asking to stop the "are you calling us pirates?" each time that anyone talks about piracy as a consequence of the encription key leaking.

Alright, fair enough. But I was hardly trying to get you banned. As if I cared. In fact, squatingyeti already made my real point for me pretty well:

I don't think people are upset that you talk about the fact CFW can lead to piracy. I think people, and know as far as myself, are upset because of the constant, "only 'backups' and eumlators. No use for CFW otherwise" talk.
That type of nonsense continues because people use the argument that emulators and BM's came quickly, but there's "no homebrew" which is completely false anyway. However, that statement is completely disingenuous because it pretends that all coding is equal and completely ignores that emulators were easy to port and BM's had already been around, thus easy to code for CFW.
It's like people continue to believe anything can be coded within a week. I find that train of thought absolutely amazing.

So, tell you what. You stop with the paranoia and false arguments targeted at us homebrewers, and I'll stop "trying to get you banned" lol).

And no one here has to feel accused of anything, because GAF is probably the piracy-less videogame forum that I know.

Exactly. If you already know that, then why did you falsely argue that "one thing leads to another" in the original post I replied to? That implied that everyone, including GAFfers, acted that way, when that's patently not true at all. That's why I replied as I did. Or maybe I'm being paranoid now, I dunno. Either way, piracy sucks, but homebrew does not necessarily lead to piracy - can we at least agree on that?

Noshino, phosphor112: Why are you even bringing up third-world countries? That's just the way it is in those places (I hear). And it's always been that way, and it's a sad thing for all concerned, but in the end, it's irrelevant to the case, our argument or the thread.

 

[Noshino]

Yep, things are pretty much sold at street corners. Just boxes of games and flashing devices. Stuff sold for 5 bucks. I know the Middle East is bootleg like that too, I mean, yeah most of them are dirt poor, but some of the bootlegs there are just hilarious. Non-game related, I saw a bootleg of The Passion of the Christ, and on the back of the case, the packaging was photoshopped to say "A once in a life time comedy." Terrible, but its how it is in 3rd world countries. To get anything other than bootleg is considered a joke.

Dude, I went to Bolivia and Peru on 09, and I was surprised as hell to see original PS3 games being sold, I mean, they weren't being bought often, but at least they had them available, it was very surprising. Shame that that is likely to have changed.

Alright, fair enough. But I was hardly trying to get you banned. As if I cared.

You might not, but there have been many occasions in which people have been trying to clingy onto other's comments to insinuate that said comment implies that all homebrewers are pirates.

So, tell you what. You stop with the paranoia and false arguments targeted at us homebrewers, and I'll stop "trying to get you banned" lol).

Paranoia? see, you guys also go to the extremes. No, its not concern, its downright paranoia.

Whatever happened to the neutral stance that you had before?

Noshino, phosphor112: Why are you even bringing up third-world countries? That's just the way it is in those places (I hear). And it's always been that way, and it's a sad thing for all concerned, but in the end, it's irrelevant to the case, our argument or the thread.

Because like I said, things were actually changing for once. For everyone there was no other option to play these games other than to buy them, new or used, but an original copy acquired in a honest way

 

[Dambrosi]

Dude, I went to Bolivia and Peru on 09, and I was surprised as hell to see original PS3 games being sold, I mean, they weren't being bought often, but at least they had them available, it was very surprising. Shame that that is likely to have changed.

Hmm, interesting. So Sony did actually try to crack the South American market? How much did the games cost, I ask out of curiosity?

You might not, but there have been many occasions in which people have been trying to cling onto other's comments to insinuate that said comment implies that all homebrewers are pirates.

Paranoia? See, you guys also go to the extremes. No, its not concern, its downright paranoia.

Whatever happened to the neutral stance that you had before?

No, you misunderstand. I'm pro-homebrew and pro-consumer all the way, but I still acknowledge that there are some big flaws in some pro-homebrew arguments. But I digress.

I'd argue that a "slippery slope" argument like the one Dangerous Dave made does, in fact, indicate something more like paranoia rather than concern, actually. To quote:

There are always reasons for homebrew.

If they took regional lock, they will ask for divx.
If they put divx, they will ask for mkv.
If they put mkv, they will ask for OtherOS.
If they put OtherOS, they will ask for "adding backup install to avoid getting up to change the game".

There are a lot of people that simply want to play any game for free. It's a big demand and there will be always people that want to satisfy that demand.

Did you notice something? He typed "will", not "could", as if it were absolutely certain that it would occur. "Oh no! There's no possibility that their demands are legitimate, they must be a cloak for something insidious and wrong! Won't someone please think of the developers?" I felt offended, and that's why I replied as I did.

Plus, there's nothing wrong with asking for something that was illegitimately taken away to be returned to you, jeez.

 

[Noshino]

Hmm, interesting. So Sony did actually try to crack the South American market? How much did the games cost, I ask out of curiosity?

No, at least not there, as far as I know Sony has only shown "some" support to Brazil (but they have been trying to)

The few that I asked had just imported, most of them just had the NA version (and would tell the customers that other languages were available) while there were few that had the spanish versions. I think they going for like 100 bucks (USD) or so...

It wasn't often, but they were being sold...which was very surprising.

No, you misunderstand. I'm pro-homebrew and pro-consumer all the way, but I still acknowledge that there are some big flaws in some pro-homebrew arguments. But I digress.

Im also pro homebrew and pro consumer, but I just don't share the same views as most of people on said camps do.... Im more reserved

I'd argue that a "slippery slope" argument like the one Dangerous Dave made does, in fact, indicate something more like paranoia rather than concern, actually. To quote:


Did you notice something? He typed "will", not "could", as if it were absolutely certain that it would occur. "Oh no! There's no possibility that their demands are legitimate, they must be a cloak for something insidious and wrong! Won't someone please think of the developers?" I felt offended, and that's why I replied as I did.

But, is any of what he said false? whether the way he said it was offensive or not, there is truth to it...

And where on that quote did he say anything about the legitimacy of the demands? (or for that matter, mention developers at all?)

Plus, there's nothing wrong with asking for something that was illegitimately taken away to be returned to you, jeez.

I think one must be an idiot to argue otherwise, but can't that be done in a civilized manner?

also to say that there was "no reason" for said removal its also dumb.

 

[Tellaerin]

Did you notice something? He typed "will", not "could", as if it were absolutely certain that it would occur. "Oh no! There's no possibility that their demands are legitimate, they must be a cloak for something insidious and wrong! Won't someone please think of the developers?" I felt offended, and that's why I replied as I did.

Dambrosi, can you think of any cases of a console's security being cracked wide open (making homebrew and piracy equally possible), and people subsequently using that crack solely for homebrew? I can't.

Face it, man. There are a lot of would-be pirates out there. I think it's fair to say that they outnumber the people interested in CFW for nothing but homebrew by a pretty significant margin. The fact that there are so many would-be pirates and online cheaters out there is what's making the anti-CFW crowd so apprehensive in the first place. Maybe you're not planning to use CFW for anything sketchy, but unfortunately for all of us, that probably puts you in the minority. Saying as much shouldn't be taken as an affront to your dignity.

 

[Dambrosi]

No, at least not there, as far as I know Sony has only shown "some" support to Brazil (but they have been trying to)

The few that I asked had just imported, most of them just had the NA version (and would tell the customers that other languages were available) while there were few that had the spanish versions. I think they going for like 100 bucks (USD) or so...

It wasn't often, but they were being sold...which was very surprising.

A HUNDRED bucks? Yikes, no wonder most of them pirated.

Not that that's any excuse, but, y'know.

I'm also pro homebrew and pro consumer, but I just don't share the same views as most of people on said camps do.... I'm more reserved.

OK, I gotcha.

But, is any of what he said false? whether the way he said it was offensive or not, there is truth to it...

And where on that quote did he say anything about the legitimacy of the demands? (or for that matter, mention developers at all?)

He had no proof of his assertion. Using such an argument without any proof is offensive in itself, at least to me. Hell, didn't I link to a Spanish university's study in a previous post that concluded that only 100-odd BitTorrent users generate 66% of its traffic, and half of those are anti-piracy operatives spreading fake copies? That's proof to the contrary of his argument. Let him bring some proof for his assertions, and I'll listen to it.

And I know he never actually mentioned anything about legitimacy or devs, but the implication of his argument is what I was driving at. Dunno if he actually meant it that way, but that's how I initially took it.

I think one must be an idiot to argue otherwise, but can't that be done in a civilized manner?

also to say that there was "no reason" for said removal its also dumb.

I said "illegitimately". I never said that Sony didn't have a reason for it.

Dambrosi, can you think of any cases of a console's security being cracked wide open (making homebrew and piracy equally possible), and people subsequently using that crack solely for homebrew? I can't.

Oh no, I'm not saying that piracy has never occured on any cracked system. I think we'd all agree that such an assertion would be foolish. But, I think it would be equally foolish to think that just because there are pirates and online cheaters out there, that they must inevitably be the majority of CFW users. That's a fallacy, and we all know it.

The anti-homebrew argument, I believe, grossly overstates the prevalence of piracy and online cheating in order to make CFW and homebrew application of such seem illegitimate. Whether this is because of real fears about the health of the PS3, or more selfish political concerns, is a matter for debate. Calling for things like geohot's and the failoverfl0w team's imprisonment and prison rape just so that you can play Killzone 3 in peace, however, is beyond the pale and should be condemned, as it has been in this thread.

 

[Noshino]

A HUNDRED bucks? Yikes, no wonder most of them pirated.

Not that that's any excuse, but, y'know.

Yah, I know. Add to that the fact that for them is culturally okay to pirate software... for a while they wouldn't even persecute pirate vendors. Thankfully over the past decade or so things have changed a lot, and although prices have indeed increased, the governments at least do try to punish the offenders, although it still not as often nor as severe as I wish.

He had no proof of his assertion. Using such an argument without any proof is offensive in itself, at least to me. Hell, didn't I link to a Spanish university's study in a previous post that concluded that only 100-odd BitTorrent users generate 66% of its traffic, and half of those are anti-piracy operatives spreading fake copies? That's proof to the contrary of his argument. Let him bring some proof for his assertions, and I'll listen to it.

Well, the part that you quoted only mentions piracy on the last sentence, and he doesn't even involve most of the users, he uses "a lot" instead. Beg to disagree with his statement?

As for the rest of the paragraph quoted, all of it is true, or do you disagree with the fact that all of those features have been requested to Sony and are often mentioned/distributed among homebrew users?

And I know he never actually mentioned anything about legitimacy or devs, but the implication of his argument is what I was driving at. Dunno if he actually meant it that way, but that's how I initially took it.

I think the only implication that can be drawn out is that homebrew users want more features, and based on the history of it, most of them tend to have endless demands (one of them being free games), agree or disagree?

I said "illegitimately". I never said that Sony didn't have a reason for it.

I know you did, and I do agree, but like I mentioned, can't it be done in a civilized manner? I mean, we have a bunch of people hoping for Sony to go bankrupt, others hoping that "ps3 gets pirated".... is that really necessary?...

 

[jorma]

We're talking about the DMCA exception, which applies to the US where there was a monopoly. Same in Europe.

Sorry but you are confusing things here. Iphone jailbreak is legal in EU because it breaks a monopoly in the US, even though there is no monopoly in the EU? That makes zero sense, again.

The R4 card was considered illegal in the UK because the primary use was said to be copyright infringements. Sony will never be able to claim the same for this fw jailbreak, especially not after they removed linux.

 

[Raist]

Sorry but you are confusing things here. Iphone jailbreak is legal in EU because it breaks a monopoly in the US, even though there is no monopoly in the EU? That makes zero sense, again.

The R4 card was considered illegal in the UK because the primary use was said to be copyright infringements. Sony will never be able to claim the same for this fw jailbreak, especially not after they removed linux.

Heh? The DMCA is a US law. Regardless, it's similar in Europe, the iPhone is locked to some operators. Or has been for a couple of years when it was introduced.

 

[Tellaerin]

Oh no, I'm not saying that piracy has never occured on any cracked system. I think we'd all agree that such an assertion would be foolish. But, I think it would be equally foolish to think that just because there are pirates and online cheaters out there, that they must inevitably be the majority of CFW users. That's a fallacy, and we all know it.

I think it's up for debate, to be honest. We know from looking at other platforms that piracy's pretty widespread. No doubt there's some overlap between people using CFW for piracy and people using CFW for both piracy and homebrew. While it's not exactly possible to poll people on this, I suspect that the number of people using CFW solely for homebrew and nothing else is going to be a small subset of the total number of CFW users out there.

The anti-homebrew argument, I believe, grossly overstates the prevalence of piracy and online cheating in order to make CFW and homebrew application of such seem illegitimate. Whether this is because of real fears about the health of the PS3, or more selfish political concerns, is a matter for debate. Calling for things like geohot's and the failoverfl0w team's imprisonment and prison rape just so that you can play Killzone 3 in peace, however, is beyond the pale and should be condemned, as it has been in this thread.

Personally, I think the pro-homebrew contingent is doing its level best to downplay the amount of would-be cheaters and pirates there are out there. There's no denying that CFW acts as an enabler for illegitimate uses as well as legitimate ones, or that those illegitimate uses pose problems for others who own the hardware. I'd also never suggest that anyone should be subjected to 'prison rape', and the way you worded that makes it sound like you're responding to something I said in this thread. I don't know if that was just poor phrasing on your part or if you're confusing me with another poster, but I thought I should point that out.

 

[jorma]

Heh? The DMCA is a US law. Regardless, it's similar in Europe, the iPhone is locked to some operators. Or has been for a couple of years when it was introduced.

Well it's you claiming that the legal situation in EU is similar to the DMCA situation in the US. I claim the opposite.
Everything about this fw mod is perfectly legal here, partly because Sony never can claim that the primary usage for this is copyright infringement.

 

[Dambrosi]

Well, the part that you quoted only mentions piracy on the last sentence, and he doesn't even involve most of the users, he uses "a lot" instead. Beg to disagree with his statement?

It depends what he means by "a lot". Does he in fact mean the majority, or a significant minority? Either way, I believe him to be wrong.

As for the rest of the paragraph quoted, all of it is true, or do you disagree with the fact that all of those features have been requested to Sony and are often mentioned/distributed among homebrew users?

I think the only implication that can be drawn out is that homebrew users want more features, and based on the history of it, most of them tend to have endless demands (one of them being free games), agree or disagree?

Well, that's true. Otherwise, there'd be no point in homebrew in the first place. The implication that such demands would lead to piracy, however, is unprovable.

And I guess it depends on what you mean by "free games". I'm not denying that there is a certain percentage of users who will pirate, but when I think of "free games", I think of games created by independent developers that are then distributed for free, like Vanguard Princess and Blue Wish Resurrection, or Wesnoth and Dwarf Fortress, or Cave Story and La Mulana (both of which went on to become commercial products). There are already such homebrew games in development for CFW'd PS3s, but of course, they won't just appear overnight, like the easily-ported emulators did.

That's just me, though. I do recognize that there are other, less scrupulous people out there for whom "free games" = piracy. I just believe that the proportion of pirates to legitimate users is much smaller than you seem to believe - they're just more active.

I know you did, and I do agree, but like I mentioned, can't it be done in a civilized manner? I mean, we have a bunch of people hoping for Sony to go bankrupt, others hoping that "ps3 gets pirated".... is that really necessary?...

NO, I agree that such language and extremist opinion does not belong on this forum, never mind this thread, and should be called out and condemned. Here, we are in agreement.

Tellaerin: Yes, sorry, I was referring to another poster earlier in the thread, who was promptly slapped down by other members, to the thread's credit. No offense meant or implied.

Raist: jorma is correct on this. Believe me, we Europeans know.

 

[DangerousDave]

I think that we can safely assume that "free games" in this topic don't mean "dwarf fortress port for PS3", it means "using backup loader for games that you don't own".

And I think that you extrapolate GAF population to real world, and then you don't got a clear image of what CFW implies in terms of piracy.

People pirate. As much as they can. Even the Humble Indie Bundle, that could be bough by 1 cent, was pirated. What can you expect if instead a 1 cent bundle of games, you have a whole console catalog full of 60$ games?

If you check the traffic stats of Mininova, you'll see what happen when you take out all the piracy from a torrent search site.

You can simply go to other forums. I already talked about EOL, where people insult you, as "richy boy" if you declare that you prefer to buy the games instead of piracing (and they're a community as big as GAF, and only for spanish speakers). You can see a lot of PSP and DS forums, with constant ROM updates an hundreds of pages of people thanking the ROM poster. You can search "name of psp or ds game" + megaupload, and find hundred of thousand results. I'm not talking about downloads, i'm talking about numbers of pages that links the roms. And another hundred of thousands if you make the same changing megaupload for rapidshare.

Or you can simply go to the real word. I could explain dozens of cases of piracy only in the people that I know in the real world. And I'm a programmer that knows a lot of programmers, so the normal should be, for me, to find people insterested in CFW for investigation or legit reasons, but it's not what I found.

Piracy is not a small minority. When the protections of a console are broken, people don't jump in there to play a "dwarf fortress port". In real world, people want free things. And if there is a easy way (specially if it's a easy and free way) to break the protection of his consoles, they won't buy another game.

Yeah, here in GAF we can be different and pay for all games, without pirating any. Or failOverflow. Or even GeoHot. But we're a small community in a big world. With an action like publishing the encription keys, GeoHot should have though about the consequences. Because Sony is suing him because of causing damage and is safe to assume that GeoHot action will damage the future software sales. But, for example, I don't agree with Sony suing also failOverflow. They didn't publish the keys. They simply explained Sony mistakes, and planned to launch a linux bootdisk working in any PS3.

PS: You can replace "people" for "most of the people". I'm not saying that ALL the people outside GAF with CFW is a pirate. Only that in "real world" most of the people don't look for R4 in order to see movies in the DS.

 

[Canova]

I think that we can safely assume that "free games" in this topic don't mean "dwarf fortress port for PS3", it means "using backup loader for games that you don't own".

And I think that you extrapolate GAF population to real world, and then you don't got a clear image of what CFW implies in terms of piracy.

People pirate. As much as they can. Even the Humble Indie Bundle, that could be bough by 1 cent, was pirated. What can you expect if instead a 1 cent bundle of games, you have a whole console catalog full of 60$ games?

If you check the traffic stats of Mininova, you'll see what happen when you take out all the piracy from a torrent search site.

You can simply go to other forums. I already talked about EOL, where people insult you, as "richy boy" if you declare that you prefer to buy the games instead of piracing (and they're a community as big as GAF, and only for spanish speakers). You can see a lot of PSP and DS forums, with constant ROM updates an hundreds of pages of people thanking the ROM poster. You can search "name of psp or ds game" + megaupload, and find hundred of thousand results. I'm not talking about downloads, i'm talking about numbers of pages that links the roms. And another hundred of thousands if you make the same changing megaupload for rapidshare.

Or you can simply go to the real word. I could explain dozens of cases of piracy only in the people that I know in the real world. And I'm a programmer that knows a lot of programmers, so the normal should be, for me, to find people insterested in CFW for investigation or legit reasons, but it's not what I found.

Piracy is not a small minority. When the protections of a console are broken, people don't jump in there to play a "dwarf fortress port". In real world, people want free things. And if there is a easy way (specially if it's a easy and free way) to break the protection of his consoles, they won't buy another game.

Yeah, here in GAF we can be different and pay for all games, without pirating any. Or failOverflow. Or even GeoHot. But we're a small community in a small world. With an action like publishing the encription keys, GeoHot should have though about the consequences. Because Sony is suing him because of causing damage and is safe to assume that GeoHot action will damage the future software sales. But, for example, I don't agree with Sony suing also failOverflow. They didn't publish the keys. They simply explained Sony mistakes, and planned to launch a linux bootdisk working in any PS3.

I fucking hate hackers and pirates even more. goddamn motherfuckers

 

[jorma]

I think that we can safely assume that "free games" in this topic don't mean "dwarf fortress port for PS3", it means "using backup loader for games that you don't own".

And I think that you extrapolate GAF population to real world, and then you don't got a clear image of what CFW implies in terms of piracy.

People pirate. As much as they can. Even the Humble Indie Bundle, that could be bough by 1 cent, was pirated. What can you expect if instead a 1 cent bundle of games, you have a whole console catalog full of 60$ games?

If you check the traffic stats of Mininova, you'll see what happen when you take out all the piracy from a torrent search site.

You can simply go to other forums. I already talked about EOL, where people insult you, as "richy boy" if you declare that you prefer to buy the games instead of piracing (and they're a community as big as GAF, and only for spanish speakers). You can see a lot of PSP and DS forums, with constant ROM updates an hundreds of pages of people thanking the ROM poster. You can search "name of psp or ds game" + megaupload, and find hundred of thousand results. I'm not talking about downloads, i'm talking about numbers of pages that links the roms. And another hundred of thousands if you make the same changing megaupload for rapidshare.

Or you can simply go to the real word. I could explain dozens of cases of piracy only in the people that I know in the real world. And I'm a programmer that knows a lot of programmers, so the normal should be, for me, to find people insterested in CFW for investigation or legit reasons, but it's not what I found.

Piracy is not a small minority. When the protections of a console are broken, people don't jump in there to play a "dwarf fortress port". In real world, people want free things. And if there is a easy way (specially if it's a easy and free way) to break the protection of his consoles, they won't buy another game.

Yeah, here in GAF we can be different and pay for all games, without pirating any. Or failOverflow. Or even GeoHot. But we're a small community in a small world. With an action like publishing the encription keys, GeoHot should have though about the consequences. Because Sony is suing him because of causing damage and is safe to assume that GeoHot action will damage the future software sales. But, for example, I don't agree with Sony suing also failOverflow. They didn't publish the keys. They simply explained Sony mistakes, and planned to launch a linux bootdisk working in any PS3.

Yeah and maybe we can find an engineer to blame for all the people that jumped off a bridge he built? That engineer clearly shold have thought about those consequences before he built it. Even if he was only building it to replace the old bridge that his friend Sonny thrashed in a drunken rage.

 

[Dragon]

Yeah and maybe we can find an engineer to blame for all the people that jumped off a bridge he built? That engineer clearly shold have thought about those consequences before he built it. Even if he was only building it to replace the old bridge that his friend Sonny thrashed in a drunken rage.

Let me get this straight, this engineer wanted a way to run OtherOS on the Slim and PS3s past 3.41 or whatever firmware version got rid of that functionality and you're saying that this guy deserves to be sued over it?

 

[DangerousDave]

Yeah and maybe we can find an engineer to blame for all the people that jumped off a bridge he built? That engineer clearly shold have thought about those consequences before he built it. Even if he was only building it to replace the old bridge that his friend Sonny thrashed in a drunken rage.

We're in a worst analogy contest, already? I prefer the one of the supermarket clerk that sells kitchen knives.

 

[Raist]

Well it's you claiming that the legal situation in EU is similar to the DMCA situation in the US. I claim the opposite.
Everything about this fw mod is perfectly legal here, partly because Sony never can claim that the primary usage for this is copyright infringement.

EU law regarding reverse engineering is very similar to the DMCA. You can use it to enable interoperability etc, but you cannot circumvent security measures, and it must not potentially harm the rightholder, etc. I don't see how it's not similar.

Dambrosi: I'm european as well, the hell are you talking about

 

[mclem]

EU law regarding reverse engineering is very similar to the DMCA. You can use it to enable interoperability etc, but you cannot circumvent security measures, and it must not potentially harm the rightholder, etc. I don't see how it's not similar.

If I'm reading it correctly, the exact wording is that you cannot *unreasonably* harm the rightsholder. I could imagine that OtherOS removal may in turn lead to this being considered reasonable.

Also, once again, "sole intended purpose".

I'm not saying it's a foregone conclusion, at all. But I think there's definitely content there a good lawyer could work with.

 

[Raist]

If I'm reading it correctly, the exact wording is that you cannot *unreasonably* harm the rightsholder. I could imagine that OtherOS removal may in turn lead to this being considered reasonable.

Also, once again, "sole intended purpose".

I'm not saying it's a foregone conclusion, at all. But I think there's definitely content there a good lawyer could work with.

THe sole intended purpose of geohot's patch and keys release is to circumvent security measures preventing unauthorized installation and signing stuff not licensed in the first place, yes. Now I never said that the sole purpose was piracy. It's a different thing.

 

[Zoe]

Reposting this since we seem to have turned back to discussing the laws:

Justification for the DMCA exemption:
http://www.eff.org/files/filenode/dmca_2009/RM-2008-8.pdf
(starting on page 7)

This one's a bit more readable, but you can't select text:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/34898232/2010-DMCA-Exemption-Announcement

Perhaps I'm reading into this incorrectly, but it seems like part of the reason the iPhone exemption happened is because Apple does give users an avenue to create third party software. However, the final release of said software is up to Apple's discretion. The PS3 has always been a closed system where someone must be granted access by Sony to create something.

This may be relevant when Playstation Suite comes around though.

 

[jorma]

We're in a worst analogy contest, already? I prefer the one of the supermarket clerk that sells kitchen knives.

Indeed. My analogy = your conclusions.
"Copyright infringements are real, that means geohot is to blame for breaking the PS3 security".

I'm not saying it's a foregone conclusion, at all.

As far as i know there is zero precedent from any EU court suggesting this firmware mod might be illegal under EU law.

 

[DangerousDave]

Indeed. My analogy = your conclusions.

Well, if the architect design a bridge and most of the people that cross the bridge decide to jump off... yes, I'll start thinking that maybe the architect has made something wrong.

Unless you positively think that only a 0.000001% of the CFW users use piracy.

 

[mclem]

THe sole intended purpose of geohot's patch and keys release is to circumvent security measures preventing unauthorized installation and signing stuff not licensed in the first place, yes. Now I never said that the sole purpose was piracy. It's a different thing.

But the sole purpose *has* to be piracy - or at least, "unreasonably prejudices the rightholder's legitimate interests or conflicts with a normal exploitation of the computer program." - for this to be illegal, if I'm reading the laws correctly.

I'm fairly certain that "preventing installation of random stuff on a hard disc" does not constitute a security measure that should be protected by the laws; that's why I've generally been arguing on that case. It's far too general an act to protect.

The keys are another matter. I don't quite know what way that falls, legally. I think using the keys to sign (benign) homebrew is actually reasonable - it's not bypassing a security measure to protect a program, because what program is it protecting? That in turn would imply that releasing the keys is also legal. The confusion comes with backup managers, because they are homebrew, but the homebrew in itself is primarily for piracy (albeit not exclusively, even then, but I think it's enough in favour of piracy to breach Article 6 part 3 of http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32009L0024:EN:NOT )

(As an aside: I haven't hacked my PS3, but I'm sort of wishing I had, now. I'm getting increasingly annoyed with LBP1 levels which don't work in LBP2, requiring a laborious disc swap to move to the version that works. Backups - with a PSN workaround - would make life easier on that front. I'm seriously considering grabbing the PSN version of LBP1, but I already own the game, so it seems like overkill just for the convenience)


In short: I suspect the only actual illegal act is *using* the keys to sign a backup manager. In my reading of the law. And I, very much, am no lawyer!

 

[squatingyeti]

Reposting this since we seem to have turned back to discussing the laws:



Perhaps I'm reading into this incorrectly, but it seems like part of the reason the iPhone exemption happened is because Apple does give users an avenue to create third party software. However, the final release of said software is up to Apple's discretion. The PS3 has always been a closed system where someone must be granted access by Sony to create something.

This may be relevant when Playstation Suite comes around though.

In all, the issue was that the iPhone was itself, technically a closed system. Only what Apple allowed to be on the system could be on it. Anything else was a no go. The idea was that users had the right to use programs on their own phones, regardless if Apple wanted them to or not, as long as they were acquired legally.

That was the main argument put forth.

 

[jorma]

Unless you positively think that only a 0.000001% of the CFW users use piracy.

Why would i need to think this? Is that the level of copyright infringers allowed before a CFW loses credibility as a tool for anything other than facilitating copyright infringement? Who decided on these numbers?

 

[Dambrosi]

"Richy Boy"? Yeesh.

Of course you're going to get laughed at for buying your games on a spanish scene site filled to the brim with pirates. That's sad, but expected. I don't deny that there are a ton of other scene sites, loads of pirated files on file storage sites, and masses of illegal torrents everywhere. Nobody with a modicum of sense would deny that.

But we seem to be misunderstanding each other somewhat. For instance, what is your definition of a "pirate"? From your last post, I get the feeling that you label all those involved in the act, uploader and downloader both, as pirates, and I can't really dispute that. It then comes down to how the law defines piracy - as the unauthorized copying and distribution of copyrighted materials, none of which a leecher consciously does (unless they're using torrents, but we'll get to that later).

See, when I think of piracy, I think of the actual illegal act of copying and distribution, without which there would be no files to download, and therefore, no leechers. Your own graph shows the truth of that, does it not? Without any content, Mininova simply fizzled into irrelevance. That's the nature of the beast - the leechers go where the content is. It's the same with all piracy - you need there to be something to get in order for people to get it. That's why the copying and distribution/uploading is the true illegal act - because from there, all other iniquities spring forth. The people who do that - they're the real pirates.

That's my point - there's a tiny minority of real pirates out there uploading copyrighted materials of all kinds to a huge mass of leechers, but, even so, their numbers pale in comparison to the legal user community that neither uploads or downloads illegally copied files. Believe it or not, most people obey the law. It's just the way they were brought up to be. You may have had the misfortune to meet and work with some people whose moral fiber is...differently woven, let's say, but that does not mean that those people are the majority. It just means you've been unlucky.

The sole intended purpose of geohot's patch and keys release is to circumvent security measures preventing unauthorized installation and signing stuff not licensed in the first place, yes. Now I never said that the sole purpose was piracy. It's a different thing.

Incorrect. Geohot's patch - for that's all it is, a patch, since the firmware is otherwise untouched - only makes it possible to install your own applications to the PS3. That's it. It doesn't even help them run - the leaked keys do that. It's a tool, just like BitTorrent and C++, and it can be used for both good and ill purposes. Now comes the question - Raist, would you be in favour of making geohot's patch illegal simply because it can be used to install apps that, if illegitimately used, could facilitate piracy/cheating?

In the patch's case, it's not even the tool itself being used illegally, but another separate tool being used illegally. It's like someone using BitTorrent to download public domain blueprints for an amateur rocket, then using those blueprints as the base from which to design and build a mortar grenade. Or someone using C++ to write a program to make it easier to create widgets for a particular website, which someone then uses to write malware. If that makes any sense.

Anyway, BitTorrent is still legal because, despite being used for illegal purposes by a lot of people, it's just a tool that does have legitimate uses - hell, Blizzard uses their own BT client to distribute their World Of Warcraft and StarCraft II files to their customers' hard drives, and I'm sure a lot of other companies use it as well. File storage sites like MegaUpload are still legal for the same reasons, despite the tons of illegal files on their servers - in the end, they're just tools. The same way that geohot's patch is just a tool. Hell, it doesn't even use any Sony-copyrighted code!

Tools can't be made illegal just because bad people can use them. That's a simple enough principle to understand, isn't it? CFW doesn't pirate PS3 games, pirates do!

 

[DangerousDave]

but, even so, their numbers pale in comparison to the legal user community that neither uploads or downloads illegally copied files

That's where we don't agree.

You say that people that download illegally copied files is a small minority. From the total amount of the console userbase, it may be true. But not from the amount of users that has CFW.

To put it clear. Most of people with DS pirate? No, you only need to see the sales of DS games to see this. But most of the people that buy a R4 use it for piracy. It's not a small amount of R4 users. That's why R4 was banned from England or Japan, because it was mainly used to play illegally downloaded ROMS, not to play dwarf fortress-ports.

 

[Dambrosi]

That's where we don't agree.

You say that people that download illegally copied files is a small minority. From the total amount of the console userbase, it may be true. But not from the amount of users that has CFW.

To put it clear. Most of people with DS pirate? No, you only need to see the sales of DS games to see this. But most of the people that buy a R4 use it for piracy. It's not a small amount of R4 users. That's why R4 was banned from England.

R4 was designed specifically for piracy purposes. Its use for homebrew applications came later. You can't honestly say the same about geohot's patch.

 

[Raist]

Incorrect. Geohot's patch - for that's all it is, a patch, since the firmware is otherwise untouched - only makes it possible to install your own applications to the PS3. That's it. It doesn't even help them run - the leaked keys do that. It's a tool, just like BitTorrent and C++, and it can be used for both good and ill purposes. Now comes the question - Raist, would you be in favour of making geohot's patch illegal simply because it can be used to install apps that, if illegitimately used, could facilitate piracy/cheating?

In the patch's case, it's not even the tool itself being used illegally, but another separate tool being used illegally. It's like someone using BitTorrent to download public domain blueprints for an amateur rocket, then using those blueprints as the base from which to design and build a mortar grenade. Or someone using C++ to write a program to make it easier to create widgets for a particular website, which someone then uses to write malware. If that makes any sense.

Anyway, BitTorrent is still legal because, despite being used for illegal purposes by a lot of people, it's just a tool that does have legitimate uses - hell, Blizzard uses their own BT client to distribute their World Of Warcraft and StarCraft II files to their customers' hard drives, and I'm sure a lot of other companies use it as well. File storage sites like MegaUpload are still legal for the same reasons, despite the tons of illegal files on their servers - in the end, they're just tools. The same way that geohot's patch is just a tool. Hell, it doesn't even use any Sony-copyrighted code!

Tools can't be made illegal just because bad people can use them. That's a simple enough principle to understand, isn't it? CFW doesn't pirate PS3 games, pirates do!

What the hell does "otherwise untouched" mean anyway? It modifies the firmware. Releaseing a custon firmware which would basically be the OFW with the patch already applied would be no different.
Again, what it is used for is not the question. You can't even prove whether it was designed for piracy or not anyways. Now, what it does itself is to remove security features.
The BT analogy is also completely irrelevant. It's a software created from scratch, not an unauthorized modified version of an existing, commercial software.

 

[mclem]

What the hell does "otherwise untouched" mean anyway? It modifies the firmware. Releaseing a custon firmware which would basically be the OFW with the patch already applied would be no different.

I don't believe so; in the latter case you're actually distributing the licensed software, and that definitely *is* piracy. In the other, you're just distributing the changes that are applied to it. In much the same way, downloading a translation patch for a NES game is legal; downloading the patched NES game is not.

Again, what it is used for is not the question. You can't even prove whether it was designed for piracy or not anyways. Now, what it does itself is to remove security features.
The BT analogy is also completely irrelevant. It's a software created from scratch, not an unauthorized modified version of an existing, commercial software.

Once again: The inability to install content to the hard disc is not - I would argue - a security measure to protect a program. If it *is* a security measure to protect a program, what program - precisely - is it protecting?

 

[Canova]

Yeah and maybe we can find an engineer to blame for all the people that jumped off a bridge he built? That engineer clearly shold have thought about those consequences before he built it. Even if he was only building it to replace the old bridge that his friend Sonny thrashed in a drunken rage.

what a stupid analogy

 

[Dunlop]

Once again: The inability to install content to the hard disc is not - I would argue - a security measure to protect a program. If it *is* a security measure to protect a program, what program - precisely - is it protecting?

We don't know but seeing how the ability to install to HDD was a huge bullet point for MS when they implemented it (2 years ago?) and the PS3 BD drive is slow as shit, why hasn't it been implemented.

I'm not implying it is a security reason, I really don't know but I can't fathom why Sony would not have added it themselves.

 

[jorma]

What the hell does "otherwise untouched" mean anyway? It modifies the firmware. Releaseing a custon firmware which would basically be the OFW with the patch already applied would be no different.
Again, what it is used for is not the question. You can't even prove whether it was designed for piracy or not anyways. Now, what it does itself is to remove security features.
The BT analogy is also completely irrelevant. It's a software created from scratch, not an unauthorized modified version of an existing, commercial software.

If you want to keep claiming that what it's used for is irrelevant, you really need to show us a precedent from a case where that proved to be the case.

And releasing a patch is very different because it might be a copyright infringement to include the original firmware and spread it with the patch. If you spread the patch only, no copyrights has been violated.

 

[Raist]

If you want to keep claiming that what it's used for is irrelevant, you really need to show us a precedent from a case where that proved to be the case.

Huh?

And releasing a patch is very different because it might be a copyright infringement to include the original firmware and spread it with the patch. If you spread the patch only, no copyrights has been violated.

I was talking about the "otherwise untouched part", in terms of modification. Not the whole distribution thing which is a whole different issue.

 

[Dambrosi]

What the hell does "otherwise untouched" mean anyway? It modifies the firmware. Releasing a custom firmware which would basically be the OFW with the patch already applied would be no different.

Er...but geohot wasn't distributing the already-patched firmware, just the patch to modify it.

The modifications weren't that huge anyway - the patch was (as far as I know) a mere XML file that told the firmware to behave differently, and an additional app that allowed the installation of signed apps. The original Sony-copyrighted code was not changed, it was just added to and given new instructions, hence "otherwise untouched".

Again, what it is used for is not the question. You can't even prove whether it was designed for piracy or not anyways. Now, what it does itself is to remove security features.
The BT analogy is also completely irrelevant. It's a software created from scratch, not an unauthorized modified version of an existing, commercial software.

Ahem. That's what the patch is. Now, if I was talking about the resultant modified/patched firmware, I'd agree that the BitTorrent example were irrelevant, but since I was referring to the patch itself only, it's perfectly applicable IMO.

Furthermore, the patch's only function is to allow the interoperability of programs - and that's covered both by European law and the DMCA (well, if that exception didn't only apply to mobile phones, but you get my drift).

 

[DangerousDave]

R4 was designed specifically for piracy purposes. Its use for homebrew applications came later. You can't honestly say the same about geohot's patch.

Not really, R4 is the succesor of M3 Movie Player (that came from GBA Movie Player), that used the Movie Player support like the excuse. The program to patch games (then the games had to be patched to work) wasn't even in the servers of M3, to avoid legal problems. But people didn't bought it to play movies.

Also, someone can argue that they use R4 to play their own games without carrying all the cartridges. At least that was the argument with the PS3 dongle, when it was launched only with a backup loader.

 

[Raist]

Ahem. That's what the patch is. Now, if I was talking about the resultant modified/patched firmware, I'd agree that the BitTorrent example were irrelevant, but since I was referring to the patch itself only, it's perfectly applicable IMO.

Furthermore, the patch's only function is to allow the interoperability of programs - and that's covered both by European law and the DMCA (well, if that exception didn't only apply to mobile phones, but you get my drift).

It's a patch. It does fuck all on its own. Nothing like BT.

 

[test_account]

It never mattered if Apple had a "fair chance to fix their security" in the exemption. In fact, it is counted on that people will continue to be able to circumvent their security, and doing so is allowed.

I havnt really read that much about what the exemption says regarding hacking of cellphone, but you're probably right about that these things arent mention in the exemptions. But at least the iPhone was based on software exploits as far as i know, which in many cases can be fixed/patched. Releasing decryption keys that cant be revoked cant be fixed as far as i know.

This isn't about giving companies a fighting chance. It's about consumers being allowed to do things, despite a company's best efforts to stop them.

That is true, but i wanted to raise the question about what info that should be legal to post online when it comes to hacking. Personally i dont mind what people do with their own PS3. If people want to change their icons, run homebrew stuff etc. on their own machine, i see no harm in that. If people find a way to modify the PS3 software on their own PS3, then that is ok with me. And if people find the decryption keys and only use it for personal use, i have no problem with that either. But should people be allowed i.e to post decryption keys publically online? Especially when it is not "necessary" and when the decryption keys cant be revoked (i say "necessary" with quote-signs because i belive that most of this PS3 hacking would be possible without releasing the decryption keys. I belive that it would be enough to release a custom firmware file that allowed the installation of .pkg files).

 

[mclem]

So, er, what law are you saying the patch breaches, again? It seems to have got lost in all the semantics about what the patch is or isn't.

 

[Zoe]

We don't know but seeing how the ability to install to HDD was a huge bullet point for MS when they implemented it (2 years ago?) and the PS3 BD drive is slow as shit, why hasn't it been implemented.

I'm not implying it is a security reason, I really don't know but I can't fathom why Sony would not have added it themselves.

Because it's a myth that the BD drive is "slow as shit."

And people who have installed to the HDD have said there's no significant gain in loading times.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Because it's a myth that the BD drive is "slow as shit."

And people who have installed to the HDD have said there's no significant gain in loading times.

yeah, it's now apparent that something inherent to the PS3's design makes data reading slow as shit since 360 DVD's load faster, and 360 installs are even faster than that, while PS3 installs are barely faster than BD.