• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Sony to sell PlayStation Vita for a loss, Profitable within 3yrs

I'm a consumer, not a stock holder. I don't give a shit about large multinational corporations' profits. I want the most bang for my buck, and Sony and MS are willing to give me that. I look at those profit charts and get angry for being overcharged for Nintendo's products.

Then again, I'm not buying a 3DS because I think it feels and looks cheap, and think it's not worth anywhere close to what they are charging for it.
 

slayzz

Member
dude said:
Ugh. You see: The value of a product is decided by the consumer. If the feature is of no interest to anyone, no one will see it as an added value - even though the product has this new feature and the company has invested money in it. The value to the consumers is the same - They'll buy it for what they think it's worth. If Sony sells the thing for 250$, it's only because that's what they predict the consumer values their product. This is not more nor less than the price any other company gives it's products - what consumers are willing to pay for it.
To you, specifically, the Vita features are very important so you're getting a lot of value for 250$ - But using the term "consumers" in general is silly.

reading your post reminds me of my friend who is a hardcore apple fanboy. We always make fun of him buying all those overpriced apple product, and he'd go ape shit defending how its not overpriced.
 

dude

dude
Amir0x said:
That's lovely.

It is an objective fact about the components Sony and Microsoft putting into their systems greatly exceeding the price they're selling it for. I don't care one iota what other retarded consumers think about the value; I only care about what I know as an educated consumer. What I know is Sony and Microsoft give back to consumers, and Nintendo and Apple don't.

Simple.

So, at this point, I'm starting to wonder even more why it matters to you that I try to disengage from this objective fact. Is it offensive to you that someone considers companies which give you more bang for your buck as more consumer-friendly? Are you angry that Nintendo or Apple is not in this category, having historically shat on consumers value-wise?
The fact is that the price of the components is irrelevant - What's relevant is what value these components hold for the consumers. You said that Sony are giving back to "consumers", which they're no doing more than any other company. They are giving back more to you, because the features and components of the Vita hold greater value to you. What you know, is that Sony and Microsoft give back to you, and Nintendo and Apple don't. In terms of consumers - They all give exactly the same amount.

It matters to me because I hate it when people think companies are out to get them and fuck them over at every turn or people who think a company loves just them and wants to make them truly happy. Sony are not a knight on shining armor coming to save us all, and there's no point :swoon:ing over this decision. This is not hard to understand.

Again with calling me a fanboy? Alright, look - If there's one company I hate on this earth it's Apple. I can't stand their aesthetics, I can't stand their prices, I can't stand the people who use their products, I can't even stand Steve Jobs.
I never owned a Nintendo console besides the GBA I got for my bar mitzva and the DS which I played like 10 games on (yeah, total waste of money for me). Nintendo products are usually not worth the money for me, nor do they usually create experiences I care about. I think the 3DS is a bad product without a single feature I could care about, for example.
If you're curious, I do most of my gaming on the PC.
Align me on your bias chart as you will.


slayzz said:
reading your post reminds me of my friend who is a hardcore apple fanboy. We always make fun of him buying all those overpriced apple product, and he'd go ape shit defending how its not overpriced.
Isn't he right though? If so many people are buying them at their price point, they couldn't be overpriced for most consumers.
 

Iceberg

Member
Sony has given us:

- shitty PSN security
- rootkits on AudioCDs
- a non-Linux-friendly, once Linux-friendly, console
- a brand, a status, it's kwel to own a PlayStation

and everything at a loss! Don't you find it lovely?

Only a fool would find great companies selling things at a loss. Very stupid people is at Sony's HQ if they think that in a recession they may recover selling consoles at a great.. loss
 

Amir0x

Banned
dude said:
The fact is that the price of the components is irrelevant - What's relevant is what value these components hold for the consumers. You said that Sony are giving back to "consumers", which they're no doing more than any other company. They are giving back more to you, because the features and components of the Vita hold greater value to you. What you know, is that Sony and Microsoft give back to you, and Nintendo and Apple don't. In terms of consumers - They all give exactly the same amount.

No they don't. I don't care what retard consumers who don't inform themselves think of the value. As someone who is educated, I note that Sony and Microsoft constantly pack their platforms full of power, features and components which are worth a lot more than they sell it for. Therefore, as a consumer who is educated, there is no debate here. You're just shitting at the wind while I get further and further amused.

Sony and Microsoft DO objectively give back to consumers. They do it with the way they have bargain greatest hits line. They do it with the way they're constantly giving consumers features for free or cheaper than competitors (just look at the way Sony prices their PS line on PSN versus the way Nintendo prices their games for their old legacy software; the difference is staggering). They do it the way they price their consoles in a way that is clearly not taking advantage of consumers ignorance.

Sony and Microsoft give back to consumers, Apple and Nintendo don't. Time to accept it and move on.

dude said:
It matters to me because I hate it when people think companies are out to get them and fuck them over at every turn or people who think a company loves just them and wants to make them truly happy. Sony are not a knight on shining armor coming to save us all, and there's no point :swoon:ing over this decision. This is not hard to understand.

Ah, now we're to the heart of it. You're just angry someone is pissing on a company while propping up another.

Well, Sorry, facts are facts. I don't avoid the facts because it makes dude angry to hear them. Sony and Microsoft give back to consumers, Nintendo and Apple don't. We're going about in circles now so you're just going to have to accept it and move on.

dude said:
Again with calling me a fanboy? Alright, look - If there's one company I hate on this earth it's Apple. I can't stand their aesthetics, I can't stand their prices, I can't stand the people who use their products, I can't even stand Steve Jobs.
I never owned a Nintendo console besides the GBA I got for my bar mitzva and the DS which I played like 10 games on (yeah, total waste of money for me). Nintendo products are usually not worth the money for me, nor do they usually create experiences I care about. I think the 3DS is a bad product without a single feature I could care about, for example.
If you're curious, I do most of my gaming on the PC.
Align me on your bias chart as you will.

I didn't call you a fanboy, so you must be feeling guilty.

Iceberg said:
Only a fool would find great companies selling things at a loss. Very stupid people is at Sony's HQ if they think that in a recession they may recover selling consoles at a great.. loss

You mean only the people who benefit from companies giving back to consumers would find it great.

Which, conveniently, is me! Thanks Sony.

Iceberg said:
- shitty PSN security
- rootkits on AudioCDs
- a non-Linux-friendly, once Linux-friendly, console
- a brand, a status, it's kwel to own a PlayStation

LOL it's like it's 1996 again outside of the PSN shit. And even more hilarious you act like the Linux is a problem considering NO other competitors even offer half the freedom Sony does on its platform, much less Linux.

Your bulletpoints are almost like self-parody.
 
Iceberg said:
Sony has given us:



Only a fool would find great companies selling things at a loss. Very stupid people is at Sony's HQ if they think that in a recession they may recover selling consoles at a great.. loss


Gilette, Att, Verizon, Amazon, Best Buy, Walmart, etc all sell things at a loss as part of a business strategy.

But hey, if you're cool getting gouged for hardware yet still paying high prices for software as well feel free. Enjoy those $40 n64 ports and $6 gameboy color roms.....
 

dude

dude
Amir0x said:
No they don't. I don't care what retard consumers who don't inform themselves think of the value. As someone who is educated, I note that Sony and Microsoft constantly pack their platforms full of power, features and components which are worth a lot more than they sell it for. Therefore, as a consumer who is educated, there is no debate here. You're just shitting at the wind while I get further and further amused.
Yes they do. If Sony added robotic legs to the Vita, they would have invested a lot of money in it and give the console new components that would raise what you think is the "objective" value of the system - But I think you wouldn't buy it if it meant a raise in price just because of these legs. Why? because you don't care about robotic legs in your handheld. People who have use for robotic legs will buy it, would that make them more inform than you? No, it doesn't. If you can't understand that, I have nothing to talk with you about.

Amir0x said:
Sony and Microsoft DO objectively give back to consumers. They do it with the way they have bargain greatest hits line. They do it with the way they're constantly giving consumers features for free or cheaper than competitors (just look at the way Sony prices their PS line on PSN versus the way Nintendo prices their games for their old legacy software; the difference is staggering). They do it the way they price their consoles in a way that is clearly not taking advantage of consumers ignorance.

Sony and Microsoft give back to consumers, Apple and Nintendo don't. Time to accept it and move on.

Ah, now we're to the heart of it. You're just angry someone is pissing on a company while propping up another.

Well, Sorry, facts are facts. I don't avoid the facts because it makes dude angry to hear them. Sony and Microsoft give back to consumers, Nintendo and Apple don't. We're going about in circles now so you're just going to have to accept it and move on.
Apple and Nintendo give to their consumers just as much as Sony and Microsoft give to theirs. Time for you to accept that people have different standards of value. For some people, the Vita is not worth it even at 250$ - because they don't care about the components or the features or the horsepower, they want to play Angry Birds. The fact is that all that stuff you care about and said "objectively" raises the Vita's value, doesn't make it any more valuable to him, not because he's less informed than you - But because he doesn't give a crap about this.
For other people, like you, the Vita is an amazing value - all that horsepower for 250$!

Amir0x said:
I didn't call you a fanboy, so you must be feeling guilty.
Mmhmm. Quite subtle of you.

You're right though. I have nothing to talk with you about anymore.
 

Jomjom

Banned
dude said:
The fact is that the price of the components is irrelevant - What's relevant is what value these components hold for the consumers.

Um... I don't think that's how it works. Maybe you don't care about the price of components, but I would say most people do. Let's make a really ridiculous example for effect. I find great value in toilet paper, but that does not mean the price of making the toilet paper means nothing to me. If toilet paper manufacturer's start charging $250 per roll, no matter how valuable it seems to me, I'm going to feel that that is an anti-consumer move.

Now I'm not saying Nintendo isn't entitled to make a profit. R&D is a huge cost in addition to the cost of components, but the key is the profit must be WITHIN REASON. When a competitor offers components that are more cutting edge and more expensive to the manufacturer, while at the same time having similar R&D costs, yes the one who's offering it for cheaper is being more pro-consumer.
 

yurinka

Member
JudgeN said:
Works for me.

Interesting I find it funny everyone talk about how an iphone4 is less then $200 to produce for apple so why should the Vita be more then $250 for Sony? I don't think we fully know until alittle after launch but Scott says its not going to lose money day 1, you can't be more clear then that unless you believe him.
Vita has way more powerful CPU and GPU, with more cores, with multitouch pad, etc. If iPhone 4 is a bit less than $200, this has to be more than $250 in cost for sure.
 

dude

dude
jling84 said:
Um... I don't think that's how it works. Maybe you don't care about the price of components, but I would say most people do. Let's make a really ridiculous example for effect. I find great value in toilet paper, but that does not mean the price of making the toilet paper means nothing to me. If toilet paper manufacturer's start charging $250 per roll, no matter how valuable it seems to me, I'm going to feel that that is an anti-consumer move.

Now I'm not saying Nintendo isn't entitled to make a profit. R&D is a huge cost in addition to the cost of components, but the key is the profit must be WITHIN REASON. When a competitor offers components that are more cutting edge and more expensive to the manufacturer, while at the same time having similar R&D costs, yes the one who's offering it for cheaper is being more pro-consumer.
This is honestly my last post in this thread:
You find great use for toilet paper, not great value. Why? diamonds-water paradox of value (water is more useful than diamonds, then how could water be worth less than diamonds? or - how could water holds less value to you than diamonds if it's more useful) and the solution you suggest is the labout theory of value, which fell out of use in economics years ago in favor of the subjective theory of value. to quote wikipedia:
In explaining the diamond-water paradox, marginalists explain that it is not the total usefulness of diamonds or water that matters, but the usefulness of each unit of water or diamonds. It is true that the total utility of water to people is tremendous, because they need it to survive. However, since water is in such large supply in the world, the marginal utility of water is low. In other words, each additional unit of water that becomes available can be applied to less urgent uses as more urgent uses for water are satisfied. Therefore, any particular unit of water becomes worth less to people as the supply of water increases. On the other hand, diamonds are in much lower supply. They are of such low supply that the usefulness of one diamond is greater than the usefulness of one glass of water, which is in abundant supply. Thus, diamonds are worth more to people. Therefore, those who want diamonds are willing to pay a higher price for one diamond than for one glass of water, and sellers of diamonds ask a price for one diamond that is higher than for one glass of water.
Replace water with toilet paper.

This is a rather simple concept to grasp - There is no objective value, products and items are not imbune with a "true value". It's value is the needs and wants of the consumers.
 

Jomjom

Banned
dude said:
This is honestly my last post in this thread:
You find great use for toilet paper, not great value. Why? diamonds-water paradox of value (water is more useful than diamonds, then how could water be worth less than diamonds? or - how could water holds less value to you than diamonds if it's more useful) and the solution you suggest is the labout theory of value, which fell out of use in economics years ago in favor of the subjective theory of value. to quote wikipedia:

Replace water with toilet paper.

This is a rather simple concept to grasp - There is no objective value, products and items are not imbune with a "true value". It's value is the needs and wants of the consumers.

I think the disconnect you are not seeing here is that everyone else here debating against you is speaking from a personal standpoint or at the very least a videogame enthusiast standpoint, while you are speaking purely from an academic, economic theory standpoint. These two things are wholly different.

While economic theory may find nothing wrong with a producer of an item pricing an item as high as the market will bear, consumers like me and I presume Amirox do find that wrong. Economic theory will state that if the price is higher than the market will bear and is not in line with the needs and wants of the consumers, then the item will not sell at its maximum potential, but what I'm telling you is I, personally will be buying a PSV over a 3DS because I know my money is going towards the actual production cost of the PSV, while I know my money would be going to Nintendo's coffers because it is undisputable fact that their production costs are much, much lower than the price they are charging with the 3DS.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
3 year projection means 249 will likely be the price for at least 2 years, with the start of year 2 being value-added pricing (For example, include Uncharted with the system as a pack in.) Then the start of year 3 drop the price to 199, where it will likely stay for a while, if not indefinitely until a redesign comes out.

There are just too many features and components to drop it below 200 without a redesign to cut costs.
 
dude said:
This is a rather simple concept to grasp - There is no objective value, products and items are not imbued with a "true value". It's value is the needs and wants of the consumers.

While I agree with this in concept, I dont really think this applies to what we are talking about currently. Applying it to things like gold and diamonds is especially useful because they are things with tremendous value but no inherent use other than what we ascribe to them. But arguing that sony and microsoft dont give more value when they have everything nintendo and apple have and more is asinine. it goes to say that when you have products no matter how intangible, more of the same thing is usually better, especially when the use of suchs products or services is what large members of the groups that use them come to expect.
 

dude

dude
jling84 said:
I think the disconnect you are not seeing here is that everyone else here debating against you is speaking from a personal standpoint or at the very least a videogame enthusiast standpoint, while you are speaking purely from an academic, economic theory standpoint. These two things are wholly different.

While economic theory may find nothing wrong with a producer of an item pricing an item as high as the market will bear, consumers like me and I presume Amirox do find that wrong. Economic theory will state that if the price is higher than the market will bear and is not in line with the needs and wants of the consumers, then the item will not sell at its maximum potential, but what I'm telling you is I, personally will be buying a PSV over a 3DS because I know my money is going towards the actual production cost of the PSV, while I know my money would be going to Nintendo's coffers because it is undisputable fact that their production costs are much, much lower than the price they are charging with the 3DS.
I just lost all my self respect by replying in this thread again, I hope you all are happy :(

What's the difference in where the money is going right now? It's not like Sony is a charitable organisation on a quest to improve gaming - they're a for-profit company just like Nintendo, and they intend to make just as much if not more money than Nintendo on the Vita. Your money would, eventually, be going to Sony's coffer just as much as it would go to Nintendo's.
You and maybe even I will be buying the Vita at that price points because it holds great value to us, not because we're giving Sony less money for it's vaults by doing it - Because we're not.

And Amir0x said Sony are giving back to consumers. He didn't say that they're giving back to him or to gamers (though both of these, while kind of true, are weird ways to say they created a product he wants.) This is not a personal stand point, this is claiming, as a fact, that Sony as a company "cares" more about it's consumers than other companies - Which is factually wrong.

Onion_Relish said:
While I agree with this in concept, I dont really think this applies to what we are talking about currently. Applying it to things like gold and diamonds is especially useful because they are things with tremendous value but no inherent use other than what we ascribe to them. But arguing that sony and microsoft dont give more value when they have everything nintendo and apple have and more is asinine. it goes to say that when you have products no matter how intangible, more of the same thing is usually better, especially when the use of suchs products or services is what large members of the groups that use them come to expect.
Actually, diamonds are of immense use is many industries. So is gold.
As I said, a product could have many features another product doesn't have - The 3DS has 3D, but neither me nor Amir0x see that as added value because we don't give a shit about 3D, my 250$ graphics card has much better graphical capabilities than the PS3, but most people will not necessarily see that as worth more than the PS3 for a myriad of reason. Giving consumers more of something or better something than the competetion doesn not always mean more value to the consumers.
 

M.D

Member
How Sony will offset loss-making Vita

Sony hopes money made from game sales will make up for the three years of loss it expects to make on powerful handheld console PS Vita.

In an interview this week Sony number two Kaz Hirai said the Japanese company expects to begin making a profit on the hardware within three years.

Sony announced US and Euro pricing this week at E3. The Wi-Fi model will go for $249 / €249 and the 3G plus Wi-Fi for $299 / €299. Game and Play.com were the first UK retailers to put a price on Vita, with both listing the Wi-Fi only version for £229.99 and the 3G plus Wi-Fi model for £279.99.

The price, cheaper than many expected for what is a powerful gaming handheld, is a deliberate attempt by Sony to broaden the Vita's appeal beyond core gamers and technology enthusiasts, Sony Computer Entertainment Europe boss Andrew House told Eurogamer yesterday at E3.

And it's willing to take a hit on each Vita sold because it reckons game sales will compensate.

"We have operated by and large very successfully around a model that works on what we call a blended margin," House said.

"We have very low margins or possibly negative margins on the hardware, offset by a much more attractive margin structure on software and peripherals. We'll manage the business very much in that same way for Vita."

Sony, which makes money on every game sold on its hardware by virtue of a license fee it charges publishers, is yet to announce how much Vita games will cost.

Sony is also yet to confirm UK pricing for the Vita itself, but House described the £230 / £280 listed by UK shops as "a really good starting point"
.

Link
 

kerrak

Member
There is a difference between value and perceived value.

I don't know what is so difficult to see. Every corporation is money hungry.
In order to achieve their objectives each corporation adopts a different strategy. I know it's a simplification, but last 5 years:

Microsoft is still focusing in gaining market share and has a strong financial muscle to support it.
Sony creates feature packed hardware and diverse first party software.
Nintendo has a cost conservative approach and most loved software icons.
Apple obviously goes for marketing, and "user experience" in closed systems.

My humble opinion is that Sony is the company that puts more "value vs price" in their products.
Perceived value, well it's up to every inidividual preferences.
 

Mr_Brit

Banned
M.D said:
How Sony will offset loss-making Vita



Link

Sony said:
"We have very low margins or possibly negative margins on the hardware

Told you, I said that they're either making a tiny profit or cutting even and now they've basically said exactly what I said except that there's a chance they'll be making a small loss at the start.

Yet again, people doubted me and I've proved them wrong.

What this means is that they're including the cost of pre production of the handheld, marketing and R&D in the budget as well as the fact that they'll be cutting the price of the hardware faster than the production costs will drop.

I bet all the 'It's definitely $350+!!! GUYS, trust me I'm an expert' people feel stupid.
 

FJ0372

Member
I'm there for this day one. Pushing technology to such an extreme that Sony are loss-making for three years on hardware is certainly a business model I'd support as I've learnt from this generation it means we get much better hardware for the long-run.

Striek said:
Works for me. I don't care about companies profitability.

You would when they don't make games anymore.
 

Vinci

Danish
kerrak said:
There is a difference between value and perceived value.

A product or service's value is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. So no, in practical terms, there isn't a difference - and especially not within the framework we're discussing, that of mass-produced consumer electronics. In fact, it's this staggered basis for value that creates commerce.

For example, I would pay more for a copy of Link's Awakening than I would Killzone 2. How much money and effort was put into KZ2 is absolutely meaningless to me, just as there are people - not 'idiots' as Amirox calls them - who don't give a damn what the component costs are for a system. No one gave a crap that the DS was sold at a profit for Nintendo - they wanted it due to what it offered, not what it was made of.

A product and/or service's value is not derived based on component cost, more often than not. Most consumers buy things based on the function or role it serves within their lives. Clearly there are some gamers who care very much about component cost and will support a company willing to exchange expensive components for a less expensive price.

And that's cool. It's their money. But I would argue they're not doing anything differently than the other people - they're just looking for signposts of value in a different way than others do.
 
dude is right. Sony doesn't "care" more about consumers than Nintendo or Microsoft.
The way they're pricing their hardware and software is just a business decision. If Sony leaders were thinking than giving the PS Vita to people could be more profitable they would've done it.

The choice of buying the PS Vita at 249$ or less, or more is not a Sony decision. It's your decision. Personally I'll buy it because even if I only play a few games on it I still think it's great value but my gf even at 50$ would never buy it.

The same way my gf would rather buy a Wii 199$ than a 360...

Anyway even if at first sight it's a good news I can't help myself to think that in consequence the games will be more expensive... as I said even with more expensive games it's better for me since I will probably buy like 4-5 games on the system before getting bored and selling it.

And if you really think about it what the real question is : "does the price is ok for you?"
The fact that Sony sells it at a loss or not is an interesting information but it won't change my decision and it shouldn't change yours (unless you're stupid enough to make your choice based solely on that fact).
 

szaromir

Banned
Sony/MS/Nintendo/Apple all want to suck the most money out of you, they have different ways of doing it. I find the best value offering on gaming PC, I find the lowest value on Nintendo products, so I always buy them used (hardware and software) as the MSRPs feel like a rip-off to me, but I'm interested in some of their games.
 
I think it is super magneato how people are making a huge deal on their own speculation that PSV games will cost $50 dollars due to Sony taking a loss on each unit. Yet they completely ignore that Nintendo stock just bombed to a 5 year low after announcing the WiiU. But before I get the obligatory "but I am a consumer not a stock holder hur dur", let me say that I AM a stock holder for a couple entertainment companies. And I have seen this happen before so let me inform you on what will happen.

First of all now that nintendo has realized how much their announcement has cost them the only thing that will be on their mind is showing stock holders that they are still profitable. Remember, we are no longer in the era of businesses running on honor and loyalty to customer, the bottom line is and will always be the most important thing. So in the coming year expect to see a flood of mario checkers, mario pin the tail on the donkey and mario knitting spin offs to start hitting the market. Unfortunately people will buy this and show to the rest of the industry that it's ultimately just about slapping a name on a box and calling it a new series. I don't know about you, but $50 games sound a lot more appealing than having an entire industry lower it's standards once again.
 

Touchstone

Neo Member
I have argued what you are currently arguing in another thread on another site, however, I did qualify my argument with a concept of objective value. Though I believe you to be correct in saying that the value of a product to an individual is subjective, the object itself has inherent value based on the cost of producing it. This inherent or objective value is a value outside of the market, which is to say without the subjective value added or subtracted from the inherent value by a consumer or producer (e.g. a consumer says feature X is not/very important and so value it less/more; a producer says feature Y is broken/amazing let's charge less/more for it).

Though this might seem like a pointless application of value, that is the idea behind inherent value, value of the object as it is, without regard to outside forces. Though it might sound contrary to say the inherent value is the value of production, an outside force, it is not when you consider that without that particular outside force, the product would not exist. In essence, that outside force is the product and therefore has an inherent value, which is the value of production (which is the cost of production). And though production costs vary based on the market, this does not change the cost of making a product after it has already been made. And at that point you're getting picky about valuation (e.g. the cost of the screen was valued higher the time of production, making that feature, and consequently the entire product, of subjective value).

If Sony is charging less than the intrinsic value of the PSV, then, as an informed gamer, I will add or subtract subjective value to the intrinsic costs and see if the offered price is still lower. If it is, I'll buy it, if it is not, then I shall not buy it. This takes into account those completely put off by the PSV (subtract entire value based on subjectivity) and those who love it (add value of potential utility gained from the device and subtract nothing) and everyone in between. Everyone does this, though. Usually they do this with the offered price rather than the intrinsic cost since many things are sold for profit, but these additions and subtractions of subjective value to actual (production cost) or perceived (immediate cost) intrinsic value are subconscious and not done with solid numbers. I do it every time I consider purchasing something expensive. I believe the biggest problem is people who place far to much value in meaningless (to me) things like image, branding, and other things based on what is essentially social brainwashing.

I hope I have made a somewhat reasonable case for intrinsic value and haven't bored or angered you.

As for a company doing good things for it's consumers, I think that Sony and MS (to a lesser extent) tend to be better about this than Nintendo, since Nintendo, as far as I know, does not sell anything at a loss. And if one is a consumer of their products it stands to reason that one would be appreciative of discounts (and selling at a loss) on products they are interested in. Especially since the discounts only affect those who purchase the discounted goods. Apple has smaller profit margins than MS, actually, so it seems the intrinsic value of Apple products is fairly high.

tl;dr: Inherent value exists, but it is outside of the market, which might be useless. However, people add/subtract their subjective value to the apparent (consumer cost)/actual (production cost) inherent value to determine its ultimate subjective worth.
 

Vinci

Danish
Touchstone said:
As for a company doing good things for it's consumers, I think that Sony and MS (to a lesser extent) tend to be better about this than Nintendo, since Nintendo, as far as I know, does not sell anything at a loss.

Consumers vote for whether a company has done something 'good' for them by purchasing that company's product. Whether that product is sold at a loss or a profit is utterly meaningless to those consumers the vast majority of the time. Now, it appears that many people on GAF fancy themselves bean counters and, as such, tally the component cost relative to product price first before doing anything else. This, however, is a very rare thing for consumers to do. And it's very brunt force of a company to operate in this manner.

I bought a Nintendo product in the past not because its components were worth more than its price-tag, since I don't plan on selling its components and making money off of it. I bought it because it offered something that I wanted - it performed a job I felt was compelling that other products didn't.

It has nothing to do with a company treating its customers well, and has far more to do with a company not knowing how to imbue products with value by creating them to perform a particular job well, or at least in a way distinct from others providing solutions to the same job. Technological innovation, similar to how it affects output in production, is a method within an entertainment industry of imbuing products and/or services with value beyond their component cost. The better a company is at innovation, the more money it will likely make because that allows it to project value beyond component cost to its customers.

Selling something at a discount is appreciated, but largely because it implies that it was too expensive otherwise for what it was offering.

Example: Why is the 3DS not selling as well as Nintendo projected? Because its level of innovation (minor, IMO, if any) does not imbue the product with enough value to match its price-tag. If it offered anything as innovative as the DS did when it was first released, few would likely bitch about its price.
 

kerrak

Member
Vinci said:
A product or service's value is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. So no, in practical terms, there isn't a difference.

I'm talking about inherent value vs perceived value.
If they were the same there would be no marketing departments.
Marketing goal is to alter consumer perception of products and their uses. They add value to the same piece of hardware (or predesign hardware in order to maximize perceived value).

For an informed consumer, is it so difficult to isolate the hardware from all the marketing surrounding it? I think yes.

I never talked about cost of product.
 
Touchstone said:
tl;dr: Inherent value exists, but it is outside of the market, which might be useless. However, people add/subtract their subjective value to the apparent (consumer cost)/actual (production cost) inherent value to determine its ultimate subjective worth.

This.

There are hardware that is on the market that is overpriced for the value of its parts. That says nothing about the consumers willingness to purchase the device. That is a separate discussion entirely.
 
dude said:
Apple and Nintendo give to their consumers just as much as Sony and Microsoft give to theirs. Time for you to accept that people have different standards of value. For some people, the Vita is not worth it even at 250$ - because they don't care about the components or the features or the horsepower, they want to play Angry Birds. The fact is that all that stuff you care about and said "objectively" raises the Vita's value, doesn't make it any more valuable to him, not because he's less informed than you - But because he doesn't give a crap about this.
For other people, like you, the Vita is an amazing value - all that horsepower for 250$!
He's not talking about perceived value.

He's comparing the price of the BOM for the console to the price that the console is sold for.

At least that's what I've gotten out of this.
 
Jamesfrom818 said:
Prevent a drop in their stocks? I'll take Kaz's word over the word of the VP of SCEA.
Except Kaz's "word" was from a site using Google translate, and he never said they were losing money he said they would be profitable/in the black within three years.
 

Hatten

Member
I dont get this: the samsung exynos chip on the vita will be plain obsolete in 3 years, and the screen is already old, new phones are coming with 720p screens

Google sells the similar spec'd Nexus tablet at $200 and the word is they are breaking even or losing very little money but only for a little while, why sony has to lose money for 3 years?

They are using all off-the-shelf parts, is not like the PS3 with the CELL and the bluray drive, why is this thing so expensive? anyone?
 
I dont get this: the samsung exynos chip on the vita will be plain obsolete in 3 years, and the screen is already old, new phones are coming with 720p screens

Google sells the similar spec'd Nexus tablet at $200 and the word is they are breaking even or losing very little money but only for a little while, why sony has to lose money for 3 years?

They are using all off-the-shelf parts, is not like the PS3 with the CELL and the bluray drive, why is this thing so expensive? anyone?

By your logic the 3DS wouldn't sell since its technology is years behind the Vita.

I think it's safe to say that we can get a lot out of the Vita since its a _dedicated_ games handheld, you can't just compare it to the iPad 3. Don't forget it has dual analogs and a gorgeous screen.
 

Duxxy3

Member
ThreadNecro.gif
 
I dont get this: the samsung exynos chip on the vita will be plain obsolete in 3 years, and the screen is already old, new phones are coming with 720p screens

Google sells the similar spec'd Nexus tablet at $200 and the word is they are breaking even or losing very little money but only for a little while, why sony has to lose money for 3 years?

They are using all off-the-shelf parts, is not like the PS3 with the CELL and the bluray drive, why is this thing so expensive? anyone?

PS Vita is pretty much more powerful than anything on the mobile market.

Yes, the components might be outdated in 2 years, but it will several more years for phone and tablet to get to Vita's level of graphics as their power usages is divided by multitask usage.

Vita is extremely powerful because it's solely focused on Gaming.
 

Zen

Banned
Yeah two things:

1) It's a dedicated devise without virtually any of the same overhead that similarly or better speced phones/tablets have to compromise for

2) Games for the phones/tablets have to target a wider power range, so very few games will properly exploit the highest end phones, in fact virtually none will.

The Vita will be fine in keeping up in performance, and who's to say that the screen won't be improved with revisions.
 
Top Bottom