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[ClayKavalier]

I've never understood the recognition this game gets for it's story, it seemed so dorky and clumsy to me.

"Do you feel like a hero?" Not particularly, but my options were to drop the phosphorus or stop playing. Even though I can tell my character is going insane I can't do anything to stop it, so the bizarre guilt-tripping falls flat.

The story isn't worth playing through the game as well. If you want a similar story done well go watch Apocalypse Now or something, don't wade your way through a game fans admit has sub-par gameplay to experience an imitation.

Maybe my expectations were too high, I played it after seeing a few glowing LTTP threads, hearing it talked about on podcasts as having a mind-blowing story, etc and when I finished it I just thought "That's it?"

 

[Soodanim]

Played the game the way I was told, finished it and had that realisation. Restarted, tried to play differently, got to white phosphorus, had no choice, and uninstalled the game.

I like what they did, but I was hoping for the ability to experience it a different way after learning the lessons of the first ending. Isn't the only major change the ability to not slaughter the crowd? Hardly a difference.

I may have been confused about something in the story, but I don't remember well enough to say whether I was or not.

I should watch the video.

 

[B_Signal]

I find people overrating this game like no tomorrow because of some story that would barely make C-tier in Hollywood. IDK. Seems kinda weird all told.

I played about half of it, and never found the time to continue. Insisting this as a top 25 game of all time is so laughable as to be crazy unless you have only played 25 games.

I'm not saying it's bad. And if I go back to it maybe I will end up liking it more. But so far ehhhhhhhhh.

Don't go back to it. Based on your posts in this thread it's clearly not a game for you. Don't try to force it, you're not going to get anything from it

 

[Hektor]

Heart of darkness is now a c tier story that would barely make it in Hollywood. LOL

The point is what is a story twist going to do to fix the mediocre gameplay?

I'm all up for finishing it at some point, but I have better games to play in spades and way too many of them as it is.

What does that have to do with you calling the story overrated when you haven't actually seen the story

 

[Drillary Clinton]

I find people overrating this game like no tomorrow because of some story that would barely make C-tier in Hollywood. IDK. Seems kinda weird all told.

I played about half of it, and never found the time to continue. Insisting this as a top 25 game of all time is so laughable as to be crazy unless you have only played 25 games.

I'm not saying it's bad. And if I go back to it maybe I will end up liking it more. But so far ehhhhhhhhh.

Damn I guess I've only played 25 games

Probably the most overrated game of all time. It's a huge pile of shit.

A well worded argument

 

[isaacnukem]

A game can still be fun and serve a good story. I thought the game was solid from a gameplay point of view. I played it on the highest unlocked difficulty from the beginning and it was hard, a little bit approaching The Last of Us on Grounded.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Reading a lot into "Who Says I Did?" seems a bit much. Walker's life is over and his mind shattered at this point. "Who Says I Survived?" is a common Hollywood line for people that live through traumatic experiences but are permanently damaged from them.

It's a fucking brutal and surreal game. I've skipped around a bit in the video but the doesn't seem to mention the bit where most players will shoot a civilian because she comes around the corner and when you see another character, it's almost always time to get out the iron sights. Devastating moment for me.

The surrealness of everything makes the gameplay a lot better than its pure mechanics, imo.

 

[Budi]

Reading a lot into "Who Says I Did?" seems a bit much. Walker's life is over and his mind shattered at this point. "Who Says I Survived?" is a common Hollywood line for people that live through traumatic experiences but are permanently damaged from them.

It's a fucking brutal and surreal game. I've skipped around a bit in the video but the doesn't seem to mention the bit where most players will shoot a civilian because she comes around the corner and when you see another character, it's almost always time to get out the iron sights. Devastating moment for me.

The surrealness of everything makes the gameplay a lot better than its pure mechanics, imo.

Yup, this is how I thought about it too.

 

[Neith]

Don't go back to it. Based on your posts in this thread it's clearly not a game for you. Don't try to force it, you're not going to get anything from it

Well people say it is short, and I have a better card now and can easily max it. I might go back just for kicks. I never hated the game. I just felt it was clumsy and kind of run of the mill. I did like some of the locations I played. It's like the campaigns for BF3 and BF4 for me. I just haven't found time for them atm.

 

[Jangowuzhere]

It's a fucking brutal and surreal game. I've skipped around a bit in the video but the doesn't seem to mention the bit where most players will shoot a civilian because she comes around the corner and when you see another character, it's almost always time to get out the iron sights. Devastating moment for me.

What part are you referring to?

 

[Messofanego]

24:55 Oh wow, I have played this game many times but I still didn't notice that the helicopter noises in the menu come back after the crash!

There are so many details to miss. Really is one of my favourite games of all time. What it speaks about American exceptionalism, military intervention, violence as entertainment, the audience, PTSD, all in one story is unrivalled.

 

[Darkstorne]

I've never understood the recognition this game gets for it's story, it seemed so dorky and clumsy to me.

"Do you feel like a hero?" Not particularly, but my options were to drop the phosphorus or stop playing. Even though I can tell my character is going insane I can't do anything to stop it, so the bizarre guilt-tripping falls flat.

The story isn't worth playing through the game as well. If you want a similar story done well go watch Apocalypse Now or something, don't wade your way through a game fans admit has sub-par gameplay to experience an imitation.

Maybe my expectations were too high, I played it after seeing a few glowing LTTP threads, hearing it talked about on podcasts as having a mind-blowing story, etc and when I finished it I just thought "That's it?"

I mostly agree, although I DID enjoy the story being told, and I didn't mind the gameplay either. It certainly wasn't great gameplay, but it wasn't bad either.

Journey released at a similar time, and while both of these games were essentially saying "video games have a big problem where they're almost all based on making the player feel like a hero by murdering hundreds or even thousands of people," I feel like Spec Ops' approach was to bash the issue over player's heads yelling "DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM YET? DO YOU SEEEEEE IT!?" While Journey's approach was "Okay, let's solve the problem by creating a highly engaging game devoid of violence."

So while I thoroughly enjoyed Spec Ops for having the balls to try and trick gamers into buying generic war game number 382 and then shock them half way through and try to make them feel bad, I'll always appreciate Journey more for being the kind of game that genuinely innovates and tries to push the medium forward, rather than simply acknowledging there's a problem but doing nothing to try and solve it.

 

[Soul of the Beast]

One of the best western thrid person shooter last gen, I absolutely loved it.
I even loved the gameplay.
The atmosphere and story telling is top tier.

 

[DemWalls]

I think the graphics don't get enough credit. It may be not be cutting edge technically (it wasn't when it released, and even more so today), but the art is excellent throughout. Beautiful game, even 5 years later.

 

[Tunahead]

Heart of darkness is now a c tier story that would barely make it in Hollywood. LOL

I read Heart of Darkness and my favorite part of it was the way the narration style doesn't change one iota even as the narrator becomes more and more broken and awful as the story progresses.

Spec Ops: The Line, on the other hand, all but turns to the camera and goes WAR IS HELL, MAAAAN, DO YOU GET IT

Don't compare Spec Ops: The Line to Heart of Darkness just because they're superficially similar. Just fucking don't. Their actual similarity runs about as deep as Casablanca and Barb Wire.

 

[PBalfredo]

I mostly agree, although I DID enjoy the story being told, and I didn't mind the gameplay either. It certainly wasn't great gameplay, but it wasn't bad either.

Journey released at a similar time, and while both of these games were essentially saying "video games have a big problem where they're almost all based on making the player feel like a hero by murdering hundreds or even thousands of people," I feel like Spec Ops' approach was to bash the issue over player's heads yelling "DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM YET? DO YOU SEEEEEE IT!?" While Journey's approach was "Okay, let's solve the problem by creating a highly engaging game devoid of violence."

So while I thoroughly enjoyed Spec Ops for having the balls to try and trick gamers into buying generic war game number 382 and then shock them half way through and try to make them feel bad, I'll always appreciate Journey more for being the kind of game that genuinely innovates and tries to push the medium forward, rather than simply acknowledging there's a problem but doing nothing to try and solve it.

Similarly, playing through Spec Ops the WP scene fell flat for me because the moment was unavoidable, despite my best efforts to fight through without using the WP. Then the game lays the aftermath at my feet and expects me to feel complicit. I've long since maintained that the scene truly would have worked if there was an alternative, but I chose to use the WP instead.

Years later, Undertale comes out and proves my point. Killing is so much more meaningful in Undertale because you have the option not to. Spec Ops assumes that the player is complicit for the unavoidable violence simply for wanting to play the game, with the only "alternative" to be not playing at all. Undertale will happily allow the player to get through the game without killing anyone, but if the player wants to be a completionist and see some extra dialogue and a couple of boss battles, then they have to engage willingly in violence. Then, the violence and irreparable outcome of said violence is undoubtedly on the player's head.

 

[Soul of the Beast]

I think the graphics don't get enough credit. It may be not be cutting edge technically (it wasn't when it released, and even more so today), but the art is excellent throughout. Beautiful game, even 5 years later.

Agreed, everything looks absolutely brilliant.

 

[kami_sama]

I remember when I played the game.
Went really, really over my head. So until people from here said it was not what it seemed.
I played it, and I liked it.
The gameplay was serviceable, the graphics good for what it was. But in the end what made it an experience different of other shooters was the story.
I remember playing the white phosphorus section, and trying to go without the phosphorus for like 10 minutes, even searching on the internet if it could be done.

 

[horkrux]

I mean it was a dull game to play but the way the narrative is interwoven into the gameplay makes it stand out completely. In the same way that Uncharted 2 is incredibly dull and unsatisfying, (especially that horrid slowmo melee combat good lord).

Having watched half of the video, he actually managed to spin it and present it as good gameplay lol I only played it once and he at least thrice or something, but I still can't fathom how he got to this conclusion. Maybe it's like with Call of Duty and it's only really worth playing if you bump up the difficulty..

I also can't really agree with his take on the phosphorus scene. I mean... sure, if you have no idea what you're firing at, it achieves its goal. But while he says that it was still important even if you DID know that those people were civilians, I simply can't accept this. I think this breaks everything they were trying to establish. I can't fight them, I have to kill the civilians only for them to shove it in my face afterwards like I'm an idiot. It was well-done for sure, showing you the horrors, but including that scene in this way is simply an error if you ask me. They wanted to make something work that clearly doesn't and never would have without significant changes to the game. It's also hard to accept that there really is only this one way in. I couldn't suspend my disbelief here, no way. Even Mordor had more ways in than just through the front door lol

My main problem with the narrative though was the simple fact (he only brushed over that - unless he comes back to this point later, idk) that you were only shooting back. They shot you first. So what do I care that I have single-handedly wiped out the entire platoon in the end? It's not like you could, idk, talk it over? It's supposed to be a shocking realization that there are only a few guys left in the end, but the fact that you were able to kill them all to begin with is inherently gamey. If you want to make a statement about that, then again, don't shove it in my face after having them all try to murder me.

Edit: And the graphics.. boy.. this game is the culmination of what I think was wrong about graphics in the PS360 era. Bloom, bloom everywhere, and Dubai makes for the perfect color to match it. Fuck that. Those few places inside the hotels couldn't change that.

 

[danmaku]

Similarly, playing through Spec Ops the WP scene fell flat for me because the moment was unavoidable, despite my best efforts to fight through without using the WP. Then the game lays the aftermath at my feet and expects me to feel complicit. I've long since maintained that the scene truly would have worked if there was an alternative, but I chose to use the WP instead.

Years later, Undertale comes out and proves my point. Killing is so much more meaningful in Undertale because you have the option not to. Spec Ops assumes that the player is complicit for the unavoidable violence simply for wanting to play the game, with the only "alternative" to be not playing at all. Undertale will happily allow the player to get through the game without killing anyone, but if the player wants to be a completionist and see some extra dialogue and a couple of boss battles, then they have to engage willingly in violence. Then, the violence and irreparable outcome of said violence is undoubtedly on the player's head.

There's a couple of moments in SO:TL in which you can decide to avoid violence, though, and they're awesome.

The WP scene works if you go in with the CoD mindset of "let's blow shit up and kill the bad guys". If you start questioning what you're doing, it has a lesser impact, but thankfully Spec Ops is much more than that simple scene.

 

[Walt_Clyde]

Respect to those who tried an alternative to firing off the WP (i know i just went ahead and fired away so it certainly had an impact on me) and I suppose then I understand your issue even though the game is about the main character's descent into madness and I am ok with the game shoehorning me into choices to tell a nice tight narrative but, even if you don't like it, the game is way more than just that scene and, in other cases, you do have choices to make. For me, what stuck out was just the seeping insanity infecting the character over time, and when you would see things that werent real, which made you shoot folks you otherwise shouldn't. Really enjoyed the setting in Dubai as well even if the deep communication barrier is rather unrealistic. Great time and great game.

 

[Dr. Carroll]

thankfully Spec Ops is much more than that simple scene.

It does literally beat you over the head with it multiple times. Like, that's why it's so obnoxious. On a certain level, Spec Ops treats its audiences as though they were completely incompetent. The scene actively undermines the game, especially the section towards the end of the game it tries to guilt trip you again.

The WP scene works if you go in with the CoD mindset of "let's blow shit up and kill the bad guys".

Except Call of Duty: Black Ops II, IMHO, handled this exact subject matter (trick the player by assuming they won't pay attention to hints) much better, despite a few issues of its own. Spec Ops has a LOT of railroading, and it hurts the game.

 

[Cosmic Schwung]

Well then I'll give it a shit..even though $30 seems rediculous...does it go on sale often?

Currently 76% off over at GMG. If it shows up on the flash deals you can knock another 25% off that.

 

[ClayKavalier]

There's a couple of moments in SO:TL in which you can decide to avoid violence, though, and they're awesome.

The WP scene works if you go in with the CoD mindset of "let's blow shit up and kill the bad guys". If you start questioning what you're doing, it has a lesser impact, but thankfully Spec Ops is much more than that simple scene.

It's not much more than a few other obvious twists.

And you should try playing a CoD, some have equally lazy and ineffectual condemnations of war. The last one I played had some Condoleeza Rice quote on a loading screen that boiled down to "Do you feel like a hero" without rubbing your nose in it quite so enthusiastically. And "Press F to pay respects" attempts to force you into an emotion the same way as Spec Ops.

 

[Wag]

I couldn't finish it. Maybe I'll appreciate it more now...

 

[jg4xchamp]

Heart of darkness is now a c tier story that would barely make it in Hollywood. LOL

The fuck? Apocalypse Now absolutely clowns a shit load of the "great" (genuinely great I might add) films to have come out the last 17 years, a blemish or two maybe on the plot, but hardly some c-tier story. Albeit the book n film have looser connections than most adaptations.

The book itself is plenty potent today, it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.

Similarly, playing through Spec Ops the WP scene fell flat for me because the moment was unavoidable, despite my best efforts to fight through without using the WP. Then the game lays the aftermath at my feet and expects me to feel complicit. I've long since maintained that the scene truly would have worked if there was an alternative, but I chose to use the WP instead.

Years later, Undertale comes out and proves my point. Killing is so much more meaningful in Undertale because you have the option not to. Spec Ops assumes that the player is complicit for the unavoidable violence simply for wanting to play the game, with the only "alternative" to be not playing at all. Undertale will happily allow the player to get through the game without killing anyone, but if the player wants to be a completionist and see some extra dialogue and a couple of boss battles, then they have to engage willingly in violence. Then, the violence and irreparable outcome of said violence is undoubtedly on the player's head.

Yeah seems fair, I don't really disagree that Undertale is all the more effective because of that choice, and who knows someone might one day do a type of game similar to Spec Ops, where you do have that type of option.

But I do feel Rayce's larger point, is that one scene, no matter if it has a small or even a big hole in it should necessarily sink the story. In contrast to the ending plot hole, which really requires characters to be dumb as it fundamentally comes off cheap (as opposed to Fight Club which is just a perspective shit, not: this scene was completely different zomg).

That said the lack of a choice to the overall action I don't think stops the piece from being critical of the player. Nier 1 for instance works on a similar level, yes it's pretentious for the creators to say "well the other option is just not play, the true best ending", which yes is dumb, but using satisfying, rewarding violent mechanics, and then playing with that set up and then maybe calling the player out is totally earned a bit.

Because the commercial aspect of violence also isn't lost on the game. It's why it's a big tear down of that type of game in general, Dubai itself with those giant skyscrappers with big ass advertisements on them seems like a fairly deliberate choice than some bullshit they thought up.

And even if we were all to agree the meta-reading about the player doesn't work, I don't think the impact of the sequence is necessarily lost on Walker the character.

 

[black070]

One of the most pleasantly surprising games I've ever played.

 

[danmaku]

It's not much more than a few other obvious twists.

And you should try playing a CoD, some have equally lazy and ineffectual condemnations of war. The last one I played had some Condoleeza Rice quote on a loading screen that boiled down to "Do you feel like a hero" without rubbing your nose in it quite so enthusiastically. And "Press F to pay respects" attempts to force you into an emotion the same way as Spec Ops.

Ehm... "war is bad" is hardly the message in Spec Ops. The main point is reverting the classic stereotypes of military shooters. In games, the player is always a hero and what he does is always justified in some way, but not here. You do what the game tells you to do and you become a monster. The player is not the hero, hence all the quotes about feeling like one. Nothing to do with CoD's hamfisted attempts at shoving anti war messages in a game that's all about the glorification of war.

 

[Rodolfo Brito]

People who are criticizing this game here seems like they are offended by what they call "shitty" aspects of the game itself.
It's almost like they got pissed off by this game getting so much praise even having questionable mechanics.
Reading the arguments against some aspects of the game made me about what these people look and think: "oh! This is a great game! Awesome story!"
The guys at Yager have made a really good job telling a compelling story in a videogame and the fact that some people think it is a shitty game doesn't diminish their achievements as game developers.

 

[Branduil]

I've never understood the recognition this game gets for it's story, it seemed so dorky and clumsy to me.

"Do you feel like a hero?" Not particularly, but my options were to drop the phosphorus or stop playing.

I mean, that's literally the point.

 

[SomTervo]

yep gameplay was like pulling teeth. had to throw in the towel by the 3rd quarter of the campaign or so

in spite of it all it was quite the trip. i think i played through it all in one sitting, very engrossing

You threw in the towel but you played all of it in one sitting?

???

 

[jg4xchamp]

You threw in the towel but you played all of it in one sitting?

???

I got the impression he meant lowering the difficulty.

 

[FrontalMonk]

I'm still in the middle of watching, but I just have to say that tossing in footage from Brutal Doom and passing it off as Doom makes me irrationally angry.

 

[TheBowen]

Really enjoyed this game when i got in the humble bundle

The combats serviceable and just basic, but thankfully the game is short and paces itself well enough that the narrative develops to keep you interested

Amazing voice acting, narrative, soundtrack, and pacing



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIFQzMgYS0I

Also this is great video showing how the reload voice clips and healing animations change in the game depending on how mentally unstable walker and his crew are becoming

 

[sixteen-bit]

I'm still in the middle of watching, but I just have to say that tossing in footage from Brutal Doom and passing it off as Doom makes me irrationally angry.

Yeah that got an eyebrow raise from me.