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[Takamura-San]

When 9's and 10's are handed out left and right, with an extraordinary use of superlatives and hyperbole, it's no fucking wonder that people have lost faith in contemporary game reviews.

When this has been the standard for several years now, it's perfectly understandable that the industry and the reviewers have created this weird vortex of financial reliance on Metacritic scores.

Hopefully you are right that consumers have realized this.

The sad thing is that I feel that perception is more harsh these days when it comes to scores.

 

[Ushojax]

It's 3.6 million at discounted prices.

No, it's less than the 3.6 million they expected. They haven't revealed what it actually sold.

 

[dose]

I'm still not clear how metacritic decides the average for each game either.
They don't simply round up all the reviews and draw an average from that, right? Each website has a different weight, as far as i understand, though is there a way to see which websites as more influence?

Not a chance. It's utter bollocks.
http://www.metacritic.com/faq#item3

Can you tell me how each of the different critics are weighted in your formula?
Absolutely not.

 

[UrbanRats]

Maybe this will be a wake up call for SE and Eidos. Stop ruining old franchises for the sake of the casual crowd that doesn't exist anymore and keep your budgets in check. Deus Ex and Hitman fans don't need bleeding edge graphics to buy the game, Tomb Raider fans just want puzzles and actual Tombs.

lol.
Yeah man, totally what they'll get out of this.

Not a chance. It's utter bollocks.
http://www.metacritic.com/faq#item3

Ahah, ok so they're more worthless than i thought.

 

[zerokoolpsx]

No way Tomb Raider would have shipped 3.4 million in three weeks. If only SE would release how all of them did digitally.

 

[blizzardjesus]

If they had left sleeping dogs as an original IP about a female assassin in hong kong, I would have bought it.

 

[jimi_dini]

Everyone needs to buy Sleeping Dogs!
Sad to hear all 3 titles underperformed.

Yes, Sleeping Dogs was top notch and well done. Glad that I paid full price for it. Was absolutely worth it.
The other 2 took a dump on the original franchise to try to appeal to the masses.

I wonder how much worse or better they would have sold, if they hadn't done so.

 

[Takamura-San]

Maybe this will be a wake up call for SE and Eidos. Stop ruining old franchises for the sake of the casual crowd that doesn't exist anymore and keep your budgets in check. Deus Ex and Hitman fans don't need bleeding edge graphics to buy the game, Tomb Raider fans just want puzzles and actual Tombs.

You keep telling yourself that. Have you been to this forum called Neogaf?

People count pixels there and complain about textures that look like "shit". Mind you, they don't look ok or fine, they look like SHIT.

 

[vocab]

I bought SD when it was $12. Got hitman at 15 is, and will probably buy tomb raider when it hits the cheap. I don't know why their expectations are so high. I imagine the 60 dollar price tag is hurting them.

 

[spandexmonkey]

If TR underperforms probably be the last we see of big budget female leads in the west for years to come.

 

[Lime]

Yes, Sleeping Dogs was top notch and well done. Glad that I paid full price for it. Was absolutely worth it.
The other 2 took a dump on the original franchise to appeal to the masses.

I wonder how much worse or better they would have sold, if they hadn't done so.

One thing is for sure: They wouldn't have required such huge amounts of money if both Hitman and Tomb Raider had scaled their design down to focus on their essentials instead of cinematic presentation of a bullshit story and lowest common denominator game design.

 

[Erasus]

I never buy games new unless its an MMO or something multi I really want to get into right away. I have a pretty big backlog and can always play LoL, BF3, TERA, TF2 now if I want online, dont need any more. Ill get Tomb Raider for PS3 or PC but Ill pay 20$ for it.

 

[sublimit]

Tomb Raider fans just want puzzles and actual Tombs.

But Uncharted is not about that.

 

[kswiston]

Maybe this will be a wake up call for SE and Eidos. Stop ruining old franchises for the sake of the casual crowd that doesn't exist anymore and keep your budgets in check. Deus Ex and Hitman fans don't need bleeding edge graphics to buy the game, Tomb Raider fans just want puzzles and actual Tombs.

I don't think that actual sales numbers back up any of your statements. The Hitman series hit a highpoint with Hitman 2 and was selling half that number by the time Blood Money came out.

I can't find reliable numbers for Deux Ex, but Human Revolution has doubled Invisible War. The franchise was also dead before HR came out. The Crystal Dynamics Tomb Raider games were solid sellers, but they never really posted huge numbers day 1. We'll have to see how the new game does over the next 6-12 months before we can really make a comparison.

Hardcore gamers of the nature you are talking about can't support big budget projects. Considering you yourself refuse to play most indie titles, I know that you don't want them to go the low budget direction either.

 

[Derrick01]

You keep telling yourself that. Have you been to this forum called Neogaf?

People count pixels there and complain about textures that look like "shit". Mind you, they don't look ok or fine, they look like SHIT.

Deus Ex 1 looked like shit when it came out and it didn't stop a ton of people from calling it the best game ever. Real PC gamers wouldn't care at all what it looked like if we were getting a true return to the original formula.

 

[Lime]

You keep telling yourself that. Have you been to this forum called Neogaf?

People count pixels there and complain about textures that look like "shit". Mind you, they don't look ok or fine, they look like SHIT.

Creating high resolution textures are not necessarily indicative of expensive labour. Creating lavish, well-orchestrated setpieces with tons of rigorous animation work, thoroughly tested executions of explosions and buildings falling, expensive voice rehearsing, acting and directing, camera shots, and context-sensitive programming make up a much larger part of a blockbuster game's budget.

I agree that the constant push and desire for boundary-pushing graphics and technology are hindering creativity in terms of budget allocation, but nice, simple graphics are cheap and easily obtainable.

 

[jimi_dini]

One thing is for sure: They wouldn't have required such huge amounts of money if both Hitman and Tomb Raider had scaled their design down to focus on their essentials instead of cinematic presentation of a bullshit story and lowest common denominator game design.

I still don't understand why they just didn't use Blood Money engine to bring out 2 or 3 more games like it. Would have been pretty cheap to make in comparison and it would have sold quite a bit.

When playing Blood Money I was like "omg, this is so awesome, they will surely release another game like this in 1 or 2 years" and then bam nothing. And after years and years of waiting they release this cinematic pos. I still bought it now (1 or 2 weeks ago), but mainly because of the artbook and the little hitman statue and it was on super sale for 27pounds in total.

 

[ManUtdRedDevils]

I own all 3 games........digitally through Steam. Everyone should own Sleeping Dogs by now.

I bought 3 copies for friends during the Steam Sale where it was incorrectly priced at $5.

 

[UrbanRats]

One thing is for sure: They wouldn't have required such huge amounts of money if both Hitman and Tomb Raider had scaled their design down to focus on their essentials instead of cinematic presentation of a bullshit story and lowest common denominator game design.

Hitman, yes.
Tomb Raider i'm not sure, since we're still talking about an exploration heavy 3d AAA game either way.

Hitman could've done without all that performance capture bullshit though, i'm not sure how much it costs to be fair, i guess much of the expense was in developing the Glacier 2, which is a very nice engine from the looks of it, so it could pay off in the future.

I still don't understand why they just didn't use Blood Money engine to bring out 2 or 3 more games like it. Would have been pretty cheap to make in comparison and it would have sold quite a bit.

When playing Blood Money I was like "omg, this is so awesome, they will surely release another game like this in 1 or 2 years" and then bam nothing. And after years and years of waiting they release this cinematic pos. I still bought it now (1 or 2 weeks ago), but mainly because of the artbook and the little hitman statue and it was on super sale for 27pounds in total.

Glacier 2 is next gen ready, so that wasn't a bad move,imo.
The fact that Absolution sucks as an Hitman game, doesn't have much to do with the engine either.

So i'd say that engine is the best thing we got out of this.

 

[Pooya]

It still seems too high. 500M yen for price protection adjustments only works out to $5.3 million. That doesn't cover all that many copies selling at $30-40 less than a month after release.

oh, if you're referring to the pic I posted, that's from two quarters ago after launch of Sleeping Dogs, we don't know how much more they had to spend on that in past two quarters.

 

[Takamura-San]

One thing is for sure: They wouldn't have required such huge amounts of money if both Hitman and Tomb Raider had scaled their design down to focus on their essentials instead of cinematic presentation of a bullshit story and lowest common denominator game design.

I'm sorry, so more complicated puzzles is scaling down design?

 

[Biggzy]

No, it's less than the 3.6 million they expected. They haven't revealed what it actually sold.

Then it's even worse.

 

[Lime]

If TR underperforms probably be the last we see of big budget female leads in the west for years to come.

Hopefully the industry won't be as stupid as to make such an idiotic conclusion of the financial (and creative) failure of an expensive blockbuster game.

 

[allan-bh]

Sleeping Dogs had 1.51m shipped until sep 30. So, I believe this numbers are real aprox shipments and not just targets.

 

[sublimit]

Hopefully the industry won't be as stupid as to make such an idiotic conclusion of the financial (and creative) failure of an expensive blockbuster game.

Unfortunatelly the people who ultimatelly judge and make decisions accordingly are not creative minds themselves and can't look beyond the surface.

 

[jimi_dini]

Glacier 2 is next gen ready, so that wasn't a bad move,imo.
The fact that Absolution sucks as an Hitman game, doesn't have much to do with the engine either.

So i'd say that engine is the best thing we got out of this.

But the engine was one of the problems for the game design. It wasn't capable of doing big open world like levels (on consoles?), that's why they did those level chunks.

Yes, it looks nice. But that's it. I rather want a little worse looking levels (Blood Money is totally fine graphicswise), but big ones than little level chunks that are great looking.

 

[Biggzy]

But the engine was one of the problems for the game design. It wasn't capable of doing big open world like levels, that's why they did those level chunks.

Which is a huge problem for a Hitman game.

 

[Takamura-San]

Deus Ex 1 looked like shit when it came out and it didn't stop a ton of people from calling it the best game ever. Real PC gamers wouldn't care at all what it looked like if we were getting a true return to the original formula.

LOL WHAT?

I'm sorry but your memory seems to be fuzzy. Deus Ex didn't look like shit when it came out in 2000. More so to a game of that scale. It looks like "shit" compared to the kind of graphics that we see now.

 

[UrbanRats]

But the engine was one of the problems for the game design. It wasn't capable of doing big open world like levels, that's why they did those level chunks.

Wait, they said this? Sounds like an incredibly dumb move.

I'm not far into the game myself, the Chinatown level was pretty nice (if not huge) but i know it goes downhill from there.

EDIT: Unless they were developing that engine for another (unannounced) game, and used Hitman as a testrun.
Developing an engine for Hitman and neglecting one of the core aspects would be stupid.

 

[spandexmonkey]

Hopefully the industry won't be as stupid as to make such an idiotic conclusion of the financial (and creative) failure of an expensive blockbuster game.

They already are making that decision. Western publishers don't want to take a risk on a female lead, they site games like Bayonetta and Wet (poor examples, but thats what they're using). If Tomb Raid flops with an established name and full financial backing, they're just going to see female leads as toxic. I highly doubt investors and execs for these publishers are going to give these games the scrutiny that gaf does.

 

[Lime]

Hitman, yes.
Tomb Raider i'm not sure, since we're still talking about an exploration heavy 3d AAA game either way.

I disagree. The amount of cutscene-specific animation, voice acting, elaborately scripted setpieces, and so on could have been scrapped in order to trim down the budget. It could be argued to be cheaper to create a 3D level of puzzles with a lot of player agency (although it may be a bit rough around the edges) than it is to create 30 seconds of tightly orchestrated setpieces and explosions.

I'm sorry, so more complicated puzzles is scaling down design?

I think you're misunderstanding my post. 'Scaling down' in this sense means less focus on arbitrary cinematic presentation and experiences, and more focus on what made the games actually excel.

 

[jimi_dini]

Wait, they said this? Sounds like an incredibly dumb move.

I'm not far into the game myself, the Chinatown level was pretty nice (if not huge) but i know it goes downhill from there.

I read something like that in one of the Hitman threads. It was the developer's excuse for those level chunks.

Will play it soon I guess. Although I'm not sure if I should beat Blood Money from HD collection first and Absolution afterwards or go the other way. Either getting depressed first or depressed afterwards. I can't decide.

 

[SkullplateMurray]

Sleeping Dogs had 1.51m shipped until sep 30. So, I believe this numbers are real aprox shipments and not just targets.

This. For Sleeping Dogs to be listed as 1.75 now and still to have missed its target, the numbers are obviously referring to current totals.

As the "latest situations" header implies.

 

[hamchan]

Ok, now I'm damn confused about what the "expected units shipped in FY13" actually means. Was this their target number or is it their expected final sales, and since it's just a few days before the end of their financial year anyways their expected final sales and actual sales aren't going to be that different. Because if it's the latter then 3.4 million sales for TR is pretty good, despite missing whatever high target they set for it.

 

[spwolf]

Sleeping Dogs had 1.51m shipped until sep 30. So, I believe this numbers are real aprox shipments and not just targets.

i think they call them "expected" is due to FY13 not finishing yet, so they should be really close to what it ends up being final number.

 

[Biggzy]

I read something like that in one of the Hitman threads. It was the developer's excuse for those level chunks.

Will play it soon I guess. Although I'm not sure if I should beat Blood Money from HD collection first and Absolution afterwards or go the other way. Either getting depressed first or depressed afterwards. I can't decide.

Always end on a high.

 

[vocab]

LOL WHAT?

I'm sorry but your memory seems to be fuzzy. Deus Ex didn't look like shit when it came out in 2000. More so to a game of that scale. It looks like "shit" compared to the kind of graphics that we see now.

The models in comparison to ut99 are pretty laughable. Everything else was pretty good for the time.

 

[jcm]

Sees metacritic score

What the hell is wrong with publishers putting so much weight into metacritic scores.

Putting weight on Metacritic scores is an attempt to use game quality as a metric. That is a good thing, not bad one. What would you prefer them to put weight on?

 

[kswiston]

oh, if you're referring to the pic I posted, that's from two quarters ago after launch of Sleeping Dogs, we don't know how much more they had to spend on that in past two quarters.

Thanks for the clarification.

If these are actually sales (shipment) estimates, and they are still under S-E's target number, than the company is crazy. 3.6M for Hitman would put it just under Hitman 2 for the highest sales in the franchise. 3.4M or Tomb Raider sounds pretty damn good, and is comparable or higher than anything else in the genre save Gears.

 

[Jhriad]

So how much longer can Squenix underperform before they go the way of the dodo?

 

[ViewtifulJC]

LOL WHAT?

I'm sorry but your memory seems to be fuzzy. Deus Ex didn't look like shit when it came out in 2000.

There were reviews out back in 2000 who complained about how dated the game looked, and how wonky the actual first person shooting was, but forgave it because of all the player agency and junk.

 

[Lime]

So how much longer can Squenix underperform before they go the way of the dodo?

How long did it take for THQ?

 

[Vire]

Make shitty Japanese games for a decade then throw your western developers under the bus for not carrying the entire company on its back the square enix way.

 

[Takamura-San]

Ok.

Let see if I can get some opinions on this.

We have 2 examples here. Sleeping dogs and Tomb Raider.

Presumptions:

Sleeping Dogs: Forum darling of S-E doing something right.
Tomb Raider: This is what S-E is doing "wrong".

Both didn't "meet" their targets.

What happened wrong with SD and TR?

 

[kswiston]

How long did it take for THQ?

THQ's business was build off of licensed properties for a decade or so, and when they tried to transition to new, publisher-owned IPs they failed to compete. Square Enix has the best catalogue of IP in Japan outside of Nintendo. They have just really been dropping the ball when it comes to taking advantage of their IP.

 

[spandexmonkey]

THQ probably would have been fine if one hand wasn't so busy knocking down the wall the other hand was building.

 

[jimi_dini]

What happened wrong with SD and TR?

At least for Sleeping Dogs it was the unknown franchise/name. Call it GTA: Sleeping Dogs and it would have sold a ton.

For Tomb Raider it's probably alienating the original TR fanbase. I wonder how many dudebros bought it because of Uncharted action and how much less TR fans bought it because of that. I mean I was a 100% Tomb Raider fan till this game. And I'm really sure that I will never buy it at all. Even at 10pounds or less.

 

[dreamcastmaster]

Putting weight on Metacritic scores is an attempt to use game quality as a metric. That is a good thing, not bad one. What would you prefer them to put weight on?

They are attempting to make a mathematical formula for success, but when they pressure the reviewers for good scores then they will never get a true indication.
Also what they are trying to do is take the skill and experience out of predicting a successful title so that the money men can forecast success on a checklist.

 

[Lime]

Ok.

Let see if I can get some opinions on this.

We have 2 examples here. Sleeping dogs and Tomb Raider.

Presumptions:

Sleeping Dogs: Forum darling of S-E doing something right.
Tomb Raider: This is what S-E is doing "wrong".

Both didn't "meet" their targets.

What happened wrong with SD and TR?

Game publishers: "They didn't have a white, heterosexual male as the main character."


(seriously though, there are a lot of different factors in why the two games didn't meet expectations. Their "failure" aren't comparable, as they are two different genres with different settings and demographics, and they released in drastically different periods of the year with different competition, marketing and reviews)

 

[Redhood]

And Tomb Raider is not even out for a month. What were their expectations? Given the state at which the budgets are rising. Lets hope we don't see a repeat of the infamous crash.