CGwizz
Member
excuse me, where in my comment you see me saying i want this to be a scam ? i dont even ...
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Star Citizen Backer Successfully Gets $2550 Refund
- Thread starter wesleyshark
- Start date
I think you missed my point. This isn't really a donation but it is also not a preorder. It is something new and needs to be regulated as such. The donation part comes in because part of the project is usually paying more than retail because you want to fund the developer and that overpayment feels like a form of donation. However many kickstarters don't actually have that and you are paying the retail or below retail price of the goods. Really the only reason I don't think it should be treated as a purchase is because these companies shouldn't have to refund unless they fail to meet certain goals or else you could risk a project getting funded and then going bankrupt because of refund requests when they are in the middle of production. Right now the projects have all the power and the consumer is unprotected. There needs to be some protection for the consumer and project.
I think he meant the part about the refund.
RubberJohnny
Banned
Plenty of crowdfunded games have much more openness than CIG, like this: https://trello.com/b/yxoJrFgP/subnautica-development
CIG's idea of open is talking about ships to fill an hour every week and putting out meme videos.
Alternatively: A lot of people aren't pursuing refunds because we only dropped a (comparatively) small amount of money and it wouldn't be worth the time and effort to get a refund.
Some of us are huge fans of the genre but aren't overly pleased with the fact that we haven't been given half of what the Kickstarter promised us. This was more or less in Kickstarters infancy, mind you. Let's not pretend that this project was funded during a time when we had a ton of examples of successful campaigns that delivered a product or failed to deliver one
There is no hive mind to the folk that are displeased, much less vocally so. While some people are a bit too volatile (Derek Smart) I feel comfortable saying that there's a lot of us that are just tired of hearing people point to RSI/CIG's updates when we're more concerned with something that's even close to resembling what we wanted and were promised.
Maybe there's a reason Roberts wasn't getting publisher support after all.
Dictator93
Member
Honestly, you are exaggerating a lot right here.... It is kind of absurd.
He's saying that if its a scam, he's glad people will be getting their money back. I don't think many people could disagree with that.
RubberJohnny
Banned
If CIG is open when's the next patch coming out? What features are in it? When's the game launching?
Hey remember when they had the other developer guy on and he talked really enthusiastically about all the parkour and mantling animations that were coming in 2.2?
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
It's not an investment, you own no share of the company or future profits. You pre-ordered a game.
It doesn't really matter what the company is doing with that money when you are buying a product. Some KS are actually a donation, in that you are donating towards a cause without a promise of a return product. With these game KS that isn't the case, it's essentially a pre-order.
That people still argue that it's just a donation is fucking bizarre.
Yeah, because its so easy... Its not, its not even easy for a software i'm working on in my company and its like 1000x less complex than SC.
How do you even measure completed systems? This chart is bullshit.
CIG is trying to do all assets to be modular to combine them later into complex, but unique structures.
Creating 7 polished system can take two years them and then next 70 systems can take them 4 months, because all the primary modular assets were created and they just linked them together and modified to make them unique in some way.
How do you predict to make a measurement meaningful, the amount of stuff in the system, when they are still researching a lot of new things that procedural engine can do for them, except for planets, missions or asteroid fields?
Creating base modules for space movement and asset management in persistent network environment is the most challenging part of the project. Combat is the most demanding part of the system. Thats why they are focusing on them first and releasing them to the backers first, because they need extensive testing, especially load testing.
Adding things like exploration (procedural generation says hello), trading, mining or salvaging (both planned to be released in next update or one after btw) is way easier.
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I dont even know why i'm writing this post. There is not point really. Most of drive-by posters wont even read it and in few weeks/months they will write the same bullshit arguments in the SC related thread.
Its such a waste of time, but hell.
I really wish the moderation was more strict in those threads. I dont think there was even one public SC thread that was not filled by drive-byers insulting CIG's dev team.
If i was a CIG developer, i would be furious reading those threads. And you know what? At least 3 GAFers are CIG devs. I hope they just ignore this thread, for their mental sake ;/
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In about two weeks probably, there will new PTU patch. Its internally tested now.
They plan to have fully fledged solar system with procedural planets and most meaningful systems at the end of this year. This means with item system 2.0, new netcode, mining, salvaging, exploration, progression, trading etc.
I see..... wow, that went way over my head lol,
On one hand you want more openness and on the other you skewer them on not implementing a feature that is not ready but has been announced because they are too open.
I'm pretty disappointed with my backing of this game to be honest. It's still not even close to being done, what is done runs at a whopping 15FPS on my machine, and I've randomly lost access to my account twice and it took months to hear back from their support.
I've pretty much lost hope for this game at this point.
I've pretty much lost hope for this game at this point.
Being transparent literally doesn't matter if you don't see the result of said transparency. I can write anything, I can tell you anything you want! Even if I don't mean to say it's a lie; Even if I'm told it's totally gonna happen it doesn't matter unless I can prove that it's happening.
You can tell your friend (let's go with that since there's no contractual obligation or anything) that you're gonna climb Mount Kilimanjaro. You can talk about how much you plan on doing, how much money you're going to spend. How you're going to go about it--literally every little detail.
Who's gonna care unless you show that you actually did it?
The same arguments come up because they've not been addressed by the people at the heart of the arguments. You don't have the full context of how their systems work--we don't have the full context. Whatever other people say, it ultimately doesn't matter because we have no way of knowing. Updates-by-video be damned. There's a whole segment from Lorne Lanning that came out of E3 that talks about how easy it is to make assets for video compared to assets that'll actually be in the game. So tell me, why should I care about the video they show?
RubberJohnny
Banned
Completed star systems? Are all the assets for them done, is all the tech in place?
Gameplay systems? You have a design doc that is broken down into various aspects, how many of those are complete, and how much work were they compared to what's left?
No, they only have combat after four years because Squadron42 is leading the development and the PU just gets hand-me-downs. And they're not planned to be added in the next update, we're not actually going to see those until 2017, which will presumably be many updates from now.
RubberJohnny
Banned
If they cut stuff they talked about and people criticise them, so fucking what? It doesn't affect them in any way.
I'm just using it as an example that some words from a dev doesn't mean that stuff will all come out. They haven't hit a single deadline yet, and stuff just disappears without any communication. Is vaulting still coming, or is it abandoned like grabby hands? We don't know! Star Marine was "weeks not months" away and disappeared for a year with them going all radio silence on it. Squadron42 likely won't hit their 2016 date, but they probably won't tell us until January 1st 2017.
LizardKing
Member
The only difference between this and a preorder is that this money is going directly into development. That's it. And you can argue that even with normal preorders your money does go into development. Some games are preordered direct from the publisher years before they release. There is nothing that states that if your money goes directly into a product's development, you are not entitled to a refund if not delivered the product promised. This IS a preorder. With all the other stipulations that a normal preorder has including product may differ. You are still owed a refund.
I know you want to protect devs, but this is their risk. Someone needed to step in and say "hey, we need to deliver the product we promised, when we promised, we can make a SC II later." No one would have had a problem. That is what they are required to do and there is nothing about this situation that is exempting them from that. Hence kickstarter's own policy of the backer getting a refund if the product is different than what was ordered. Backer, donate, invest are all just marketing and buzzwords dressing up what this really is, an early purchase of a product promised to be delivered in the future (preorder.)
You still do not understand.
Doing one system fully, means finishing all other systems in 80%!
Thats how procedural generation and modular assets work.
They have those. With system how they will handle economics between planets. Tony Zurovec is in charge of that.
Thats a lie. They stated it multiple times that mining and salvaging is almost completed.
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Because they show them running in-engine? They show multiple LODs for those? They also a lot of stuff live when they didnt have too? Like whole first demo of Local-Grid and baby PU in action?
They even have a segment where they show the bugs they are encountering and how they fix them!
They also do not show everything. For example we have not seen updates on Procedural Generation since anniversary stream, because F42 Frankfurt wants to show it in more finished state. And that will happen soon. Maybe next week or directly on Gamescom.
Hey I'm interested in how you climb Mount Kilimanjaro, it might surprise you it takes more then just climbing it and reaching the summit. If you just want to see me at summit fine I'll meet you there but don't go moaning all the way to summit if you do not know how to get there.
You entirely missed my point just so you can be snarky. A+ my dude.
Admittedly I haven't been able to watch all of the videos they put out--so hey, showing things in-engine is cool! Even if I do think it's still useless because they've done that a whole lot and it's still amounted to very little coming out to my knowledge. The point is: I, and I think a good deal of people posting in this thread, don't care about what they talk about. They haven't shown that much comes from what they say (or show off on their streams)--once they do that, I'm sure most of us will shut up!
This week everyone gets to fly go free. I recommend those claiming it's a scam to play the game and then come back here and tell us your experience. I think you will see that although it's an early and often rough Alpha, the foundation is there to improve and grow it into something truly special. As it stands, even so early the Alpha is doing some things not seen before in a video game.
Features get changed, cut removed all the time in game development. Just look at DOOM and TF2 when games when through complete revamps. With deadlines look at how many games have been delayed, it happens all the time in game development.
Star Marine's whole point was to test FPS because there was no PU, the PU was completed before so that made Star Marine redundant. There has been no radio silence on Star Marine it's been addressed multiple times and yes it's still coming but it's not required at the moment.
As for Squadron 42, 2016 we should get more information at Gamescom, be patient. Also does it matter when it comes out, as long as it's good that is all that should matter.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Agree with this.
I don't have to imagine because that happens all the damn time in game development. (good) Investors don't give you and say "Ok, have the project complete by tuesday, 2018!"
They set flexible milestone deadlines and constantly readjust their schedule because, hey, delays happen. They always happen. It is impossible to say precisely when a project will finish.
wesleyshark
Banned
100%
RubberJohnny
Banned
Sounds like there's no problem measuring progress then!
They said it wouldn't be coming until the ships come, which'll be after 2.7, which is the last patch of the year.
RubberJohnny
Banned
I know that, but we were talking about communication. If it happens, they should communicate it with backers! They don't though, they try not to talk about it and the community attacks anyone who asks, like with Star Marine.
How in the fuck does it look like one? No, really, tell me
How can you say that when you have not seen the finished product, time does not equal bad project manager. I have played many games that have come out on schedule and were shit and played delayed games that were awesome cause they were delayed. A good project manager knows when they need more time.
You will be able to mine even with Aurora.
They do 10 for the chairman youtube video where chris answers questions and addressed Star Marine directly.
RubberJohnny
Banned
Are you kidding? He only mentioned it after months of silence and his explanation was a lie and he got mad at people asking about it!
He said it was already in the game, and then even more months later said it might be coming back soon, so was it in the game or not Chris? It wasn't, it was a poor attempt to pass off this mess as what was promised:
Here's how shady that was
Why does my head hurt when I read this part? If there was nothing special about it, why can't anyone request a refund and get it?
That's what I get out of this too... so is everyone going to ask for their money back now?
Dreams-Visions
Member
I find feature creep leading to extremely elongated development cycles to be a project management problem, whether in gaming, marketing or any other segment of business. Running a tight ship with clear goals and targets with little deviation are an essential element of any business venture and actual completion of something. That the finish line kept being moved back is problematic in my view. It starts from the top and the management of the project is set by those leaders. That's how I can say that.
joecanada
Member
I was a huge wing commander fan but I'm not a backer of any projects because I just buy a product from someone when I see it.
However the issue here is that the project has gone on so long and the hype has built and built and died some and then built again, and for all the money people put into it, some hundreds or even thousands....
...does anyone still believe this game will be better than say elite dangerous, no mans sky, echoron legacy? (that's probably wrong) and all the other space sims combined?
I have a hard time believing it now. And I believe this is partly because they put so much information out there that other games are jumping on the bandwagon and beating them to the punch. I mean what is stopping elite dangerous from making elite dangerous 2 or adding dlc with all the same features as this game and before them even?
However the issue here is that the project has gone on so long and the hype has built and built and died some and then built again, and for all the money people put into it, some hundreds or even thousands....
...does anyone still believe this game will be better than say elite dangerous, no mans sky, echoron legacy? (that's probably wrong) and all the other space sims combined?
I have a hard time believing it now. And I believe this is partly because they put so much information out there that other games are jumping on the bandwagon and beating them to the punch. I mean what is stopping elite dangerous from making elite dangerous 2 or adding dlc with all the same features as this game and before them even?
Trogdor1123
Member
Really looking like this game has spent all its goodwill way before it has spent it's cash...
Are you kidding? He only mentioned it after months of silence and his explanation was a lie and he got mad at people asking about it!
He said it was already in the game, and then even more months later said it might be coming back soon, so was it in the game or not Chris? It wasn't, it was a poor attempt to pass off this mess as what was promised:
No he addressed it how I laid it out, there us no need for Star Marine when the Persistant Universe was released because it was suppose to test FPS mechanics before the Persistant Universe was ready. His mad cause people like you keeping on asking for Star Marine when it has no bearing on the game and a waste of resources at this point.
As for you disparaging the FPS in the game, it's in alpha and the main problem with everything at the moment including FPS is the network code if you watched the latest video you would know a lot has been held back because adding stuff in would bring the server to it's knees so they're waiting for the network code to be finished.
I would like to know what is screaming development hell to you?
Technology. The problem is that what SC tries to achieve is something that has never been done before. Especially in network environment.
You cannot do the same thing SC before CIG, because CIG has already years of tech advantage.
Elite actually will get expansion at the end of the year with multicrew ships. But they will be limited to 4 players and players wont be able explore ships. They will be fully seated in cockpit.
Its actually quite amazing that 1+ year ago people were saying that CIG is doing impossible project. That its a pipe dream. Now when we have baby PU and most of the core challenging systems working + procedural planets, that were planned to be maybe viable in 2-3 years from now, people are asking why game is taking so long.
Procedural planets are in the PU?
4-5 years
$117 million dollars
missed deadline after missed deadline
and where are we?
Yes, not in backers alpha yet though.
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So 3.5 years is now 5 years?
You have really strange post history. Your only posts from this year are SC related.
You just described Waterfall, I welcome you to Software Development where requirements change all the time. There is a reason SCRUM exist, I hate SCRUM though, really really really hate it.
SCRUM is fun! Development and requirements change all the time when it comes to software. What usually doesn't change if you have a paying customer, is the delivery date.
4-5 years
$117 million dollars
missed deadline after missed deadline
and where are we?
Holy fucking shit
Edit: I don't know if actually being 3.5 years in is much better, but that chart still makes the planning of the project look a bit like a nightmare... all of that needs to be done before they consider it "complete"?
Yet, people still seem to be having fun playing the game right now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwWwuzx_5vU
Diprosalic
Banned
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