Support NeoGAF

[Fuchsdh]

Which was an allegory for being LGBT. And was also literally bisexual, so I don't see how he's wrong in saying Jadzia isn't straight. There was also that woman in the terrible Risa episode.

Oh, sorry, should have quoted Stallion, my meaning wasn't apparently clear.

Although it did occur to me that Star Trek does seem like a universe where your sexuality is actually changeable, at least if you're a Trill. Given a slug with a long enough life experience and it's a regression to the pansexual mean

Also, the people bitching about diversity and female leads in a Star Trek show? What the hell have you been watching these past few decades?

 

[SpaceWolf]

Well, I can't talk for the rest of the people, but for me Star Trek was always a show associated with a male lead

So can I ask, why is it exactly that you seem to innately resent this new Star Trek show for giving us a new female lead, as opposed to a male lead? What is it about a franchise that has become widely synonymous with diverse ensemble casts boasting a variety of characters exploring a vast, teeming universe that you feel becomes instantly unapproachable the moment they introduce a captain who doesn't happen to have a penis?

 

[oon]

It's just like in TOS, they looked at the most underrepresented minorities in the TV landscape and said let's give them some spotlight. A very Rodenberry thing to do, so it's good for me but it still feels somewhat forced.

Why is diverse casting uniquely "forced" to you? All casting decisions are deliberate - if the captain and first officers were two white dudes, the people behind the show would have make that conscious choice in casting them - "white man" isn't some sort of innate default, where any deviation requires action.

 

[Stallion Dan]

No I don't think so.

Jadzia is not Bi, it was the Dax symbiont tapping into its male previous host's feelings for an ex wife. Jadzia in 6 seasons only expressed interest in men outside this single episode.


Edit: Just so I don't get misinterpreted, I don't care about the diversity of Discovery, my post was about Trek not being as diverse at it gets credit for. It's mostly men, and mostly white, usually both.

 

[Gothos]

So can I ask, why is it exactly that you seem to innately resent this new Star Trek show for giving us a new female lead, as opposed to a male lead? What is it about a franchise that has become widely synonymous with diverse ensemble casts boasting a variety of characters exploring a vast, teeming universe that you feel becomes instantly unapproachable the moment they introduce a captain who doesn't happen to have a penis?

Why the conclusion I resent the new show? I just said that I won't be watching it because of the female lead Heck, I might change my mind if it'll receive praise from fans, but the trailer doesn't really give that impression (except for beautiful vistas). We'll see. For now - I'm disappointed.

 

[JeffZero]

That's almost much every Star Trek tv show promo ever.

Are you a Voyager?
Of course Voyager was actual garbage, but I don't think this was anywhere near as EXTREME as that at least.

This takes me back. I feel like I'm ten years old again.

I... I... I can't believe Child!Me thought this promo was cool. THAT FONT, OMG.

I do hope Captain Lorca is decent. It always seems like every captain or admiral that is not in the starring role are either insane or evil (exception being Jellico who I thought was really good for what was meant to do; and Janeway obviously).

There's also Admiral Ross. He was introduced to DS9 in 6x01 and went on to appear like 18 more times in the final two seasons. After seven seasons of TNG and the first five seasons of DS9, the creators finally had a genuinely decent-hearted recurring admiral who could pop in whenever needed, haha.

Likley deliberate as the Captain isn't the main protagonist this time around but the First Officer is.

Also I think Michelle Yeoh's character is the Captain of an entirely different ship than the USS Discovery.

Yup, the Shenzhou!

The weirdest thing about the trailer is that the ship the entire show is based around, the USS Discovery, is not shown once. The ship shown is the USS Shenzou, which is captained by Michelle Yeoh. One presumes both are taken out by the Klingons and the XO is the only one left alive, who moves over to the Discovery.

I'd wondered for a while if the Shenzhou somehow gets refitted and repurposed and becomes the Discovery, in lieu of whatever it is Burnham discovers in the premiere. But I think the ship looks kind of different from that (admittedly stylized) little image of the Discovery on the picture with Burnham and the Vulcan hand gesture. So I don't know. Maybe not. Still though... quite a bit of money has been put into dressing all the Shenzhou sets, just to have it blow up or whatever the heck happens.

 

[Jackpot]

Of course it has female captain... I'm out.

Well, I can't talk for the rest of the people, but for me Star Trek was always a show associated with a male lead

Why the conclusion I resent the new show? I just said that I won't be watching it because of the female lead

Jesus H. Imagine being so screwed up that you couldn't stand looking at people who make up more than half the Earth's population.

 

[……forgetit]

Why the conclusion I resent the new show? I just said that I won't be watching it because of the female lead Heck, I might change my mind if it'll receive praise from fans, but the trailer doesn't really give that impression (except for beautiful vistas). We'll see. For now - I'm disappointed.

I have to ask, what about a female lead is disappointing to you? This isn't even the first female lead in star trek. It's hella offensive to go "no, cause girls"

 

[JeffZero]

Yeah, I mean, Voyager premiered 22 years ago. This isn't even a remotely recent thing.

 

[SpaceWolf]

Why the conclusion I resent the new show? I just said that I won't be watching it because of the female lead

Making disparaging comments like "Of course it has a female lead...I'm out" naturally communicates that you're being disdainful of the show simply because it's got a female main character as opposed to a male main character, much like you intended. That's not up to interpretation.

I'm asking you why you're refusing to watch a show because it happens to have a female lead, in addition to why you're being disparaging about the show making that choice. I'd appreciate it if you could stop backtracking and own up to your opinions as opposed to just shrinking away from them the moment they're challenged.

I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but your comments are giving off vibes of low key misogyny that are making me uncomfortable. I'm asking you to clarify your view so I can walk away not having that impression of you. But instead, all I'm getting from you is hollow geniality and more backtracking.

 

[kunonabi]

Wait so Rosario Dawson isnt the captain? I might actually give it a watch then depending on how big her role is.

 

[Boem]

As I said on the last page, I'm not too familiar with Trek, but I always assumed it was always openly progressive, diverse and attracted a thoughtful audience.

What's with all the people freaking out about minorities and women having big roles in the new show? I mean, really?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised ever since people freaked out about the first new Star Wars trailer showing (*gasp*) a black man and a woman as the leads of the new series of movies, but jesus.

 

[SpaceWolf]

As I said on the last page, I'm not too familiar with Trek, but I always assumed it was always openly progressive, diverse and attracted a thoughtful audience.

What's with all the people freaking out about minorities and women having big roles in the new show? I mean, really?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised ever since people freaked out about the first new Star Wars trailer showing (*gasp*) a black man and a woman as the leads of the new series of movies, but jesus.

The deathly ironic thing here is, self proclaimed Star Trek fans rejecting a Star Trek show just because it has a female captain essentially flies in the face of the whole thematic crux of its central universe. It's willfully refusing one of its most central messages about acceptance, open-mindedness and diversity and demonstrating a total inability to take them to heart.

 

[JeffZero]

Wait so Rosario Dawson isnt the captain? I might actually give it a watch then depending on how big her role is.

Dawson isn't attached to the project. You might be thinking of way back when Bryan Fuller said he'd always loved the idea of making a Trek show and having her star in it?

The deathly ironic thing here is, self proclaimed Star Trek fans rejecting a Star Trek show just because it has a female captain essentially flies in the face of the whole thematic crux of its central universe. It's willfully refusing one of its most central messages about acceptance, open-mindedness and diversity.

Yep. Forget Les Moonves; I've always contended that Star Trek fandom is its own worst enemy. I run a fan group on social media, and some of the things I've seen people say is leagues beyond anything anyone has said in this topic. It makes me flinch.

Plenty of stellar people in the fandom, but man, the things I've read.

 

[kunonabi]

Dawson isn't attached to the project. You might be thinking of way back when Bryan Fuller said he'd always loved the idea of making a Trek show and having her star in it?

Good to hear, ill be watching for sure then.

 

[SpaceWolf]

Good to hear, ill be watching for sure then.

What is this heresy?

 

[Gothos]

I have to ask, what about a female lead is disappointing to you? This isn't even the first female lead in star trek. It's hella offensive to go "no, cause girls"

For me Star Trek is simply more appealing with male lead. That's it Definetely wasn't my intention to offend anyone - if I did, then I apologize.

 

[hobblygobbly]

As I said on the last page, I'm not too familiar with Trek, but I always assumed it was always openly progressive, diverse and attracted a thoughtful audience.

What's with all the people freaking out about minorities and women having big roles in the new show? I mean, really?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised ever since people freaked out about the first new Star Wars trailer showing (*gasp*) a black man and a woman as the leads of the new series of movies, but jesus.

It's idiots doing what they always do, and I think people that haven't even watched Trek.

Can you imagine what their response would be to the Deep Space 9 episode "Far Beyond the Stars"?

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Far_Beyond_the_Stars_(episode)
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Benny_Russell

The episode was about Sisko (lead character), who was having a vision (it's tied into a larger part of the show's story as him as an emissary for the Bajoran people), it was him as a character called Benny Russel, transported back in time to 1950s U.S. He was a black novelist, writing for a magazine. He wasn't allowed to write black characters, the episode was about him persevering to do so, and he was always told by his editor that the "public does not want black lead characters" and that it "wouldn't sell" etc.

The novel he was making was about a black station commander in the far future, a science fiction novel, it ties into it because of the vision and his connection to himself still in the real world who is actually the station commander of Deep Space Nine, a black man. He was subconsciously writing about himself. The episode included other issues like white cops treatment to black people like where he gets beaten up and suffers depression from all of this, and how he wanted black youth to also stories that they can relate and aspire to.

Here are two quotes from that episode, it didn't hold back.

"Well I got news for you... today or a hundred years from now don't make a bit of difference – as far as they're concerned, we'll always be niggers."

- Jimmy (Jake Sisko)

"If the world's not ready for a woman writer – imagine what would happen if it learned about a Negro with a typewriter – run for the hills! It's the end of civilization!"

- Herbert Rossoff (Quark)

There's actually more to that episode and how it relates to the finale, but I don't want to spoil that.

Very predictable to know what the Internet's response among a certain group of people would be like if they had to make an episode like that right now.

 

[SpaceWolf]

For me Star Trek is simply more appealing with male lead. That's it

Yes, you established that.

We're asking you why.

Again, you seem rather embarrassed with your own opinions and instead of taking a hard look at them and actually addressing the points we've made, you've decided to willfully ignore them whilst sprinkling lots of smilies into your posts as if to give off the impression of innocence, as if that somehow instantly renders them less problematic and sexist. You know as well as we do that giving off a limp, utterly irrelevant apology "for offending!" is skirting the issue and doesn't actually address the points we've flagged up about why your opinions are so problematic and borderline misogynistic.

 

[BajiBoxer]

For me Star Trek is simply more appealing with male lead. That's it Definetely wasn't my intention to offend anyone - if I did, then I apologize.

Why? Is it a fan-fic thing? A self insert fantasy thing? I mean, putting smilies after your comments doesn't make them less misogynistic.

Do you have a mental disability that makes these things difficult for you to understand? Even the most disgusting hard right sexists I've come across understand saying something like what you said is offensive (which is usually why they say it).

 

[Zackat]

For me Star Trek is simply more appealing with male lead. That's it Definetely wasn't my intention to offend anyone - if I did, then I apologize.

The classic "sorry if you were offended" non apology. You don't even attempt to understand why people would think what you are saying is wack.

 

[rjinaz]

For me Star Trek is simply more appealing with male lead. That's it Definetely wasn't my intention to offend anyone - if I did, then I apologize.

You should probably think about why that might be. It comes across as sexist, as if in your mind, leaders should be men. Challenge your preconceptions. Watch the show and think about what it is that makes the female character worse than a male character just based on sex.

 

[CloudyTuba]

Of course it has female captain... I'm out. Trailer itself doesn't inspire confidence, either. Guess I'll just watch TNG again... *sigh*

Maybe next time you watch TNG you should pay more attention. The characters in that show would be disappointed in you.

 

[Shoeless]

Can you imagine what their response would be to the Deep Space 9 episode "Far Beyond the Stars"?

I only just got around to watching that episode earlier this year. Finally catching up on the remaining Star Trek series thanks to Netflix, finished up DS9, I'm on season 5 of Voyager, with Enterprise on the horizon.

Totally did not see that episode coming, but it was very powerful, and I was surprised to see them attempt it. They even used the N word, which I never imagined I would hear on Star Trek of all things. Impressive stuff. I can also see why DS9 was so divisive among fans, though I think I fall on the side that liked what Moore did with it, and appreciated that he went even further with the moral shades of grey when he did it on a bigger scale with Battlestar Galactica.

Still, I do like that Star Trek has always taken the time to tackle issues like this in some way, shape or form. SF as allegory for modern social commentary is effective, and it's a great way to get people to think about things they ordinarily wouldn't, because words like "Muslim" or "Illegal immigrant" are trigger phrases that throw all rationality out the window, but "Cylon," or "Andorian" suddenly makes it safe to discuss these ideas reasonably. That's a powerful ability.

 

[Chocolate & Vanilla]

Can't believe they went with a human captain... I'm out!

 

[Shoeless]

Can't believe they went with a human captain... I'm out!

I was actually wondering if Star Trek would ever make the leap to have a captain from another species in a regular series. I know issues of make up and effects make it less practical, but it is a bit weird always seeing pre-dominanantly human captains in Star Fleet ships.

 

[SpaceWolf]

Can't believe they went with a human captain... I'm out!

Ah, Kirk. White. American. Blessed with penis. A captain, tried and true. This is true Star Trek.

What's this? An older Englishman as captain? I'm out!

What's this? A black man as Captain?! I'm out!

What's this? A non penised person as Captain! I'm out!

(Incoherent screams of outrage)

What the fuck are all these women and minorities doing in my Star Trek shows literally based around the idea of universal equality and acceptance?!?!?

 

[Chocolate & Vanilla]

I was actually wondering if Star Trek would ever make the leap to have a captain from another species in a regular series. I know issues of make up and effects make it less practical, but it is a bit weird always seeing pre-dominanantly human captains in Star Fleet ships.

I think it's probably more to do with the natural psychology of humans to always see ourselves as the hero.

 

[rjinaz]

I was actually wondering if Star Trek would ever make the leap to have a captain from another species in a regular series. I know issues of make up and effects make it less practical, but it is a bit weird always seeing pre-dominanantly human captains in Star Fleet ships.

True. But I think the story they tell with ST, is a human one. Actually this may have been the best show to have an alien captain seeing as how the story doesn't seem focused on the captain.

 

[Ashby]

Can't believe they went with a human captain... I'm out!

You're joking but you're right tho

 

[Psychoward]

Well, I can't talk for the rest of the people, but for me Star Trek was always a show associated with a male lead

Oh dear.

 

[Shoeless]

Ah, Kirk. White. American. Blessed with penis. A captain, tried and true. This is true Star Trek.

Canadian. Montreal, Quebec, specifically, but I'm splitting hairs now as a matter of Canadian pride. It's weird to think that the only actual white, male, American Star Trek captain is Scott Bakula, but there you go.

 

[Ashby]

Canadian. Montreal, Quebec, specifically, but I'm splitting hairs now as a matter of Canadian pride. It's weird to think that the only actual white, male, American Star Trek captain is Scott Bakula, but there you go.

He's obviously talking about the character, bud. And Kate Mulgrew and Avery Brooks are American.

 

[DieH@rd]

Is the lead human or half-Vulcan? She was raised and then exiled from Vulcan?

 

[ComputerBlue]

Looks pretty great!

But I hope they're over using the lens flare for the trailer only, it's a little much.

 

[Fuchsdh]

This takes me back. I feel like I'm ten years old again.

I... I... I can't believe Child!Me thought this promo was cool. THAT FONT, OMG.



There's also Admiral Ross. He was introduced to DS9 in 6x01 and went on to appear like 18 more times in the final two seasons. After seven seasons of TNG and the first five seasons of DS9, the creators finally had a genuinely decent-hearted recurring admiral who could pop in whenever needed, haha.

Well, except for the fact that the Admiral was in bed with Section 31. But yeah, he wasn't as much of a jackass in demeanor.

 

[Shoeless]

He's obviously talking about the character, bud. And Kate Mulgrew and Avery Brooks are American.

Yeah, I just meant that even though the star ship captains are always American in the fiction of the Trek universe, excepting Picard, only Scott Bakula actually met all the criteria of being actually American, and white, and male. The other captains were pretty diverse in that regard in terms of actual origin, nationality, ethnicity. Kind of like all those Australians now that are always playing Americans, like Hugh Jackman as Wolverine, even though Wolvering is also Canadian.

 

[Boem]

Moving away from the nasty anti-women stuff:

(I know this is about old Trek but this is the newest/most active thread at the moment)

So I'm going through the Original Series (currently in the middle of Galileo Seven, which is good fun. Giants!). One question though: do Uhura and Sulu get to do more on later episodes? So far it's really primarily Kirk, Spock, McCoy and to a lesser extent Scotty. Which is a shame, because the rare moments where Uhura or Sulu get more to do (like Uhura flirting with Spock or singing to the crew in the break room, or Sulu becoming a pirate or messing around with plants (is that in his job description or just a hobby?) are a lot of fun.

The main reason their small parts surprise me is because they're so famous for being in Star Trek at this point, and I really just want them to be more involved in the adventures. They're both super charismatic when they get the chance.

 

[Jackpot]

So I'm going through the Original Series (currently in the middle of Galileo Seven, which is good fun. Giants!). One question though: do Uhura and Sulu get to do more on later episodes? So far it's really primarily Kirk, Spock, McCoy and to a lesser extent Scotty. Which is a shame, because the rare moments where Uhura or Sulu get more to do (like Uhura flirting with Spock or singing to the crew in the break room, or Sulu becoming a pirate or messing around with plants (is that in his job description or just a hobby?) are a lot of fun.

I haven't watched TOS that much but my understanding was it was always the triumvirate of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy with the movies being more ensemble things. Caused some BTS aggro.

 

[Mutanthands]

I was actually wondering if Star Trek would ever make the leap to have a captain from another species in a regular series. I know issues of make up and effects make it less practical, but it is a bit weird always seeing pre-dominanantly human captains in Star Fleet ships.

It would be cool, but I only think they would do it with an already established character (for the example if in some alternative reality they went with Spock as the Captain in a sequel series or spinofff).

It's just less risky to generate immediate empathy with the audience with a character that has some cultural commonalities, and you don't have to do as much background work. Imagine having to explain Spock, Vulcans, and his struggle with his half human nature in the first episode, while introducing the concept of the series and the other crew members. Possible, but you would have to be a hell of a writer. Writing is hard!

 

[Doctoglethorpe]

Well, I can't talk for the rest of the people, but for me Star Trek was always a show associated with a male lead

These posts are going to be an embarrassing memory for you.

No one else will remember. But you will. Randomly in the middle of the night a couple years from now. You won't be able to sleep. You'll wonder if anyone you know will ever find it and connect it to you. Do they know your screen name? This is permanent now.

 

[Lagamorph]

Only just got around to watching the trailer.

Oh man I'm hyped, can't wait for this to start up. So glad it's coming to Netflix outside the US.

 

[Himynameischris]

Moving away from the nasty anti-women stuff:

(I know this is about old Trek but this is the newest/most active thread at the moment)

So I'm going through the Original Series (currently in the middle of Galileo Seven, which is good fun. Giants!). One question though: do Uhura and Sulu get to do more on later episodes? So far it's really primarily Kirk, Spock, McCoy and to a lesser extent Scotty. Which is a shame, because the rare moments where Uhura or Sulu get more to do (like Uhura flirting with Spock or singing to the crew in the break room, or Sulu becoming a pirate or messing around with plants (is that in his job description or just a hobby?) are a lot of fun.

The main reason their small parts surprise me is because they're so famous for being in Star Trek at this point, and I really just want them to be more involved in the adventures. They're both super charismatic when they get the chance.

I thought the same thing when I first watched TOS but no Uhura and Sulu stay in the background for the most part, it's the Kirk, Spock and McCoy show until the movies when the rest of the cast gets bigger roles.

 

[Chocolate & Vanilla]

Moving away from the nasty anti-women stuff:

(I know this is about old Trek but this is the newest/most active thread at the moment)

So I'm going through the Original Series (currently in the middle of Galileo Seven, which is good fun. Giants!). One question though: do Uhura and Sulu get to do more on later episodes? So far it's really primarily Kirk, Spock, McCoy and to a lesser extent Scotty. Which is a shame, because the rare moments where Uhura or Sulu get more to do (like Uhura flirting with Spock or singing to the crew in the break room, or Sulu becoming a pirate or messing around with plants (is that in his job description or just a hobby?) are a lot of fun.

The main reason their small parts surprise me is because they're so famous for being in Star Trek at this point, and I really just want them to be more involved in the adventures. They're both super charismatic when they get the chance.

It's predominantly the bromance triangle throughout the whole series.

 

[Sapiens]

Canadian. Montreal, Quebec, specifically, but I'm splitting hairs now as a matter of Canadian pride. It's weird to think that the only actual white, male, American Star Trek captain is Scott Bakula, but there you go.

They cast an American white male and it tanked the series.

 

[Mugsy]

Ah, Kirk. White. American. Blessed with penis. A captain, tried and true. This is true Star Trek.

What's this? An older Englishman as captain? I'm out!

What's this? A black man as Captain?! I'm out!

What's this? A non penised person as Captain! I'm out!

(Incoherent screams of outrage)

What the fuck are all these women and minorities doing in my Star Trek shows literally based around the idea of universal equality and acceptance?!?!?

What's this? An insane Captain?! I'm out!

 

[Lagamorph]

What's this? An insane Captain?! I'm out!

Boo to you sir, Archer was great.

 

[louiedog]

The captain should have been Data's mind sent back in time due to a transporter accident where the only computer small enough to hold it was a prototype starship. I'm really disappointed and won't be watching.

Also the whole show is narrated by Riker who is reading us the history of the ship and its crew.

 

[Mugsy]

Boo to you sir, Archer was great.

Later seasons yes, but early on...

 

[Fuchsdh]

They cast an American white male, had him act like he was a piece of balsa wood, and it tanked the series.

FTFY. To this day the decision to get a charismatic actor like Scott Bakula and have him largely be just either unemotive or dickishly angry confuses the hell out of me.