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Star Wars The Last Jedi Spoiler discussion thread: THERE WILL BE UNMARKED SPOILERS!

MoFuzz

Member
You can nitpick and find flaws in just about anything. Very few pieces of content are absolutely perfect. I can agree with this idea. Having said that, the objective ways in which we measure 'good' or 'bad' don't necessarily have to jive with your own personal enjoyment though. I like 300, but I would never hail it as being some cinematic masterpiece. There are movies out there which contain great writing. Just because they aren't pumped out every month by the same 3 movie studios doesn't mean that they don't exist.

The problem that I have with this movie is that there appears to be large portions of people who don't want to admit that any faults even exist. People have been banned, down voted or outright dismissed with the lamest denials I've seen in a long time. This appears to be happening in all corners of the internet and even in day to day conversations in my personal life. The brand loyalty is extremely high with Star Wars and particularly with this movie. I would even go so far as to compare it to the sense of infallibility that Apple enjoys, from certain people who use their products exclusively.

There's a world of difference between having some conveniences and contrived storytelling versus framing entire portions of your script around them and having the plot end up as Swiss cheese as a result. We all have a line, and to me, this movie crossed it. If we don't raise an issue by pointing out things that suck and could use improvement, it means that we'll just keep supporting these types of products within the marketplace. What kind of message does that send to companies that produce content? What is the inevitable result?
 
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mrkgoo

Member
That's probably true. I guess the thing that gets people nitpicking over the Holdo thing so much is that it was a visually striking scene but it didn't have much weight to it for a lot of people. You introduce a character, suggest she may even be a spy herself and then give her a big emotional send-off that doesn't quite land. Even as someone who doesn't like the film, I'd concede that a lot of us probably nitpick the "logic" on these things because they weren't very emotionally satisfying on a personal level. Why did Palpatine just stand there and throw his hands in the air when Vader threw him into the pit? Few of us question that because it was such a powerful scene; one of the best in the franchise.

So, in a way it's probably just a method for a lot of us to get catharsis.
Yeah, that's what I meant by saying it's a very personal thing. What is ok for some is not to others and can be easily dependent on how one sees the rest of the film, like there's a critical mass to suspension of disbelief that one can handle on any particular movie.
 
Sure, you can find flaws in anything. I personally believe that if you have to not look at something otherwise the whole movie falls apart, then it's a poor story.

While Holdo didn't need to sacrifice herself, it doesn't derail the story. However why she kept the plan to herself is only there so Finn, Poe, and Rose have something to do in the film. Without it, they do nothing but sit there. People die on the ships that ran out of fuel so the audience sees the situation as oh shit I guess. No reason for them to die other than the audience not knowing the plan. And since the majority of the movie is the chase, yeah looking at that dumb plot reason destroys most of the film. So don't think about that.

Also makes the villains look completely dumb.

So the First Order takes over the Galaxy by destroying... 4 or 5 planets? There are thousands of planets in the republic. But only those 5 matter? So don't think about that, because that makes no fucking sense.

But the First Order hasn't done anything powerful since the beginning of TFA in the village. They get stomped by the resistance through the rest of TFA. They are just dumb through TLJ. Kylo gets his ass handed to him multiple times in the ST. Snoke is as scary as a small dog fart. This is the bad guys in the film. Why should we be worried about them again?

Sure you can ignore Leia Poppin's. You can ignore the lack of payoff in TLJ for things presented in TFA. But I can't ignore the giant issues in this trilogy.

And the idea that women are the issue is again crazy. The same people who find the new trilogy to be shit love Leia, Padme, Ashoka... Female hero's have been in Star Wars since before Star Wars was Episode 4. Same as the idea that anyone can be a hero. It's been there since the beginning. So no, it's not some new idea that is so progressive and speaks to the oppressed in the world. It's not new... It's Star Wars.
 

kunonabi

Member
And the idea that women are the issue is again crazy. The same people who find the new trilogy to be shit love Leia, Padme, Ashoka... Female hero's have been in Star Wars since before Star Wars was Episode 4. Same as the idea that anyone can be a hero. It's been there since the beginning. So no, it's not some new idea that is so progressive and speaks to the oppressed in the world. It's not new... It's Star Wars.

The funny thing is I was only interested in TFA due to Rey, Leia, and Gwendolyn Christie. Hell, I was actively annoyed with the marketing because it kept showing Finn with the lightsaber. Then the movie comes out and they completely waste Leia and Phasma and Rey, despite having a ton charisma and a great actress, ends up being the most frustratingly ridiculous character in the franchise.

I love Laura Dern and she was pretty much the only reason I saw TLJ. Of course, she ends up playing an awful character and gives one of the worst performances ive seen her give. I would much rather have had her subordinate lady take over the fleet.

Women really aren't the problem it's the writing.
 
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prag16

Banned
Sure, you can find flaws in anything. I personally believe that if you have to not look at something otherwise the whole movie falls apart, then it's a poor story.

While Holdo didn't need to sacrifice herself, it doesn't derail the story. However why she kept the plan to herself is only there so Finn, Poe, and Rose have something to do in the film. Without it, they do nothing but sit there. People die on the ships that ran out of fuel so the audience sees the situation as oh shit I guess. No reason for them to die other than the audience not knowing the plan. And since the majority of the movie is the chase, yeah looking at that dumb plot reason destroys most of the film. So don't think about that.

Also makes the villains look completely dumb.

So the First Order takes over the Galaxy by destroying... 4 or 5 planets? There are thousands of planets in the republic. But only those 5 matter? So don't think about that, because that makes no fucking sense.

But the First Order hasn't done anything powerful since the beginning of TFA in the village. They get stomped by the resistance through the rest of TFA. They are just dumb through TLJ. Kylo gets his ass handed to him multiple times in the ST. Snoke is as scary as a small dog fart. This is the bad guys in the film. Why should we be worried about them again?

Sure you can ignore Leia Poppin's. You can ignore the lack of payoff in TLJ for things presented in TFA. But I can't ignore the giant issues in this trilogy.

And the idea that women are the issue is again crazy. The same people who find the new trilogy to be shit love Leia, Padme, Ashoka... Female hero's have been in Star Wars since before Star Wars was Episode 4. Same as the idea that anyone can be a hero. It's been there since the beginning. So no, it's not some new idea that is so progressive and speaks to the oppressed in the world. It's not new... It's Star Wars.
No lies detected.

As I've said, personally I still like the film for what it is. It's entertaining. But as a Star Wars film it's not very good for all the aforementioned reasons. And yeah TLJ did make TFA retroactively worse for me as well, which is unfortunate. Pre-TLJ if you asked me for a ranking I would have said 5,4,7,3,6,2,1. Now I would probably say 5,4,3,6,7,8,2,1.

People often mocked the old EU, and likened it to fan fiction. Well, I grew up with that EU. And I WAS fully ready to put that on the back burner and accept the new post RotJ canon. Even after TFA (though there were many red flags). But after TLJ, the canon post RotJ is the fan fiction. The old EU is more real to me (well not the Yuuzhan Vong I suppose; NJO was entertaining as I read it, but looking back a lot of it kind of sucks hard).

I can now confidently say that Rogue One is easily the best Kennedy-era Star Wars film.
 
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No lies detected.

As I've said, personally I still like the film for what it is. It's entertaining. But as a Star Wars film it's not very good for all the aforementioned reasons. And yeah TLJ did make TFA retroactively worse for me as well, which is unfortunate. Pre-TLJ if you asked me for a ranking I would have said 5,4,7,3,6,2,1. Now I would probably say 5,4,3,6,7,8,2,1.

People often mocked the old EU, and likened it to fan fiction. Well, I grew up with that EU. And I WAS fully ready to put that on the back burner and accept the new post RotJ canon. Even after TFA (though there were many red flags). But after TLJ, the canon post RotJ is the fan fiction. The old EU is more real to me (well not the Yuuzhan Vong I suppose; NJO was entertaining as I read it, but looking back a lot of it kind of sucks hard).

I can now confidently say that Rogue One is easily the best Kennedy-era Star Wars film.

The (now old) EU also had powerful female hero's. The Clone Wars had it. Rebels had it. Rouge One had it. PT & OT had it. People championing the ST for it makes no sense to me.

Kylo Ren = Bray Wyatt. As in we are told how powerful and scary they are... but they can't do anything when it's time to be powerful and scary.

Vader was a scary dude. Probably the greatest villain ever. He feared/respected the Emperor. So we the audience did as well. Kylo isn't scary. So his fear/respect of Snoke does nothing for the audience. The First Order has Snoke, Ren, Hux, and Phasma. Combined are not as menacing Tarkin alone. Hell, Tharwn in Rebels was better than the combine First Order.

If the galaxy is ruled by the First Order, I don't think it's worth saving.
 

MoFuzz

Member
If the galaxy is ruled by the First Order, I don't think it's worth saving.
Right? I kept thinking that if Luke and Han are gone, Leia almost assuredly gone, Chewbecca literally reduced to Driving Miss Daisy, then just have the next big planet sized weapon do a little victory lap and kill everyone.

Just wipe them all out and tell new stories, or on second thought, maybe don't. I care not.
 

pramod

Banned
You know I just realized we are more than halfway thru the trilogy and we still haven't seen:

A really good lightsaber duel (no the one in TFA doesn't count)
An epic traditional SW style space battle
A large scale land battle (I don't count the one in TLJ as a real battle)

I guess they are saving all of it for the last movie? One can only hope.

Say what you want about the prequels but it at least gave us about 6-7 decent lightsaber duels, and a couple of space battles.
 

Matt_09

Member
You know I just realized we are more than halfway thru the trilogy and we still haven't seen:

A really good lightsaber duel (no the one in TFA doesn't count)
An epic traditional SW style space battle
A large scale land battle (I don't count the one in TLJ as a real battle)

I guess they are saving all of it for the last movie? One can only hope.

Say what you want about the prequels but it at least gave us about 6-7 decent lightsaber duels, and a couple of space battles.


What I really wanted in the films was an evil leader who was killed by his apprentice (just like in the OT), but TLJ didn't frame this exactly as I wanted, therefore, it didn't happen.

This post sums up a lot of the backlash towards The Last Jedi. I get why people do not like the film and I am not here to defend it, but this kind of 'logic' is a great summary of modern franchise fandom. You are criticising the films for things they do not have, then you point out where all of those things are in the film, but because they are not to your taste you create a new narrative in your own mind.

As you rightly point out, we have had ALL of those things but for some reason 'I don't count them', therefore they don't exist.


Also, how the f&&K is this:

giphy.gif


better than this:
8a2.gif
 
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gioGAF

Member
TFA Rey vs. Kylo is better than anything in the prequels except for Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan IMO, and John Williams and Ray Park are basically responsible for that scene being so good/fun. It's like an awesome scene (wish I could just delete the stupid space battle) inserted into an otherwise awful movie.

I see your point Matt_09, but since TLJ doesn't really deliver on any of the hype or Star Wars expectations, it is hard to fault pramod for being disappointed. I'm not a huge JJ fan by any stretch, but TFA is god-tier in comparison to TLJ.

The opening line from TFA was something I so badly wanted to hear ("This will begin to make things right"). And, while not flawless, TFA brought that SW feeling back, TLJ flushed all that hope completely down the toilet. We are back in prequel territory, sand anyone :-(
 
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What I really wanted in the films was an evil leader who was killed by his apprentice (just like in the OT), but TLJ didn't frame this exactly as I wanted, therefore, it didn't happen.

This post sums up a lot of the backlash towards The Last Jedi. I get why people do not like the film and I am not here to defend it, but this kind of 'logic' is a great summary of modern franchise fandom. You are criticising the films for things they do not have, then you point out where all of those things are in the film, but because they are not to your taste you create a new narrative in your own mind.

As you rightly point out, we have had ALL of those things but for some reason 'I don't count them', therefore they don't exist.


Also, how the f&&K is this:

giphy.gif


better than this:
8a2.gif

Well, because we are seeing Yoda, the greatest Jedi known within the movies battle with someone and display incredible feats.

vs

A girl who has never used a lightsaber before clown a trained Jedi turned dark side user with ease.

Having said that i'm firmly in the camp that Yoda and Sheev never should have been lighsaber users in general
 

gioGAF

Member
Well, because we are seeing Yoda, the greatest Jedi known within the movies battle with someone and display incredible feats.

vs

A girl who has never used a lightsaber before clown a trained Jedi turned dark side user with ease.

Having said that i'm firmly in the camp that Yoda and Sheev never should have been lighsaber users in general
This is another issue with TLJ, it retroactively makes TFA worse. I remember discussing Rey with friends, and we all had theories about her abilities. She is so and so's daughter, relative. She had memories repressed from her youth by someone (Luke?) in order to protect her/until she was strong enough, etc. It could even have been pulled off just by the fact that she was already proficient with a melee weapon (Rey had training in melee combat in general). We get zero.

TLJ just dumps this instant level-up bullshit on us. It doesn't even give us the benefit of a time jump like the OT, which meant Luke could have worked on his game during the off-season. You at least had gaps of unaccounted for time that we could work with in the OT (and even the PT). TLJ takes place immediately after TFA, and in an EXTREMELY short amount of time Rey levels up some more, her past is rendered unimportant/uninteresting and she gets over Kylo gutting Han Solo and crippling her BFF. WTF!

Btw, I agree, Yoda/Sheev shouldn't have been lightsaber users.
 

Geki-D

Banned
Poor Mark :(


I don't mind that Luke dies, I can get behind that and I think Mark shouldn't complain too much about that because it really isn't the story of Luke anymore. But for everything else he's right, this just isn't the same character at any point in the movie, even in the flashback with Kylo Luke isn't acting like Luke.

At one point a guy says that he's not Luke this time round, he's Obi but that isn't true either. Obi isn't a massive selfish asshole who feels sorry for himself, he's the caring teacher looking to pass on his skills and vanquish an evil he knows well. Obi was also in hiding but he was in hiding till the day came he could rise again. Luke on the other hand is pretty much in hiding because he wants to be left alone. His mentality is pretty much "Screw the universe and the evil I actively know is rising up to control it, I'm fine here with my blue milk". Also Obi dies fighting an enemy he knows he can't beat, knowing his death with spark in Luke the will to fight (which in fairness is pretty manipulative). Luke helps before he dies, but it's in a superficial way. And then he just dies, and you can't help but think that it's only really because the production wanted to kill off the character to throw out the old.

...Besides Leia, gotta keep that strong female character alive. ...Man did they bet on the wrong horse there.
 
Just after TFA released, people thought that the reason Rey defeated Kylo was Luke's assistance. In a now "Legends" Star Wars book (Splinter of the Mind's Eye? i think) Luke fights Vader with the assistance of Obi Wan. Takes place between ANH and ESB. Force Ghost Obi-Wan guides Luke's actions. I think he even speaks to Vader as Obi-Wan at some point. When Obi-Wan tells Luke in ESB that if he chooses to face Vader he can't interfere... he was speaking about this event.

So that moment when Rey closes her eyes and suddenly the entire Rey vs Ren fight changes led people to think that Luke or Snoke or somebody was helping Rey.

Nope!!! Rey is just a boss. Kylo must feel foolish being beating by a newbie. He has trained for a decade. In fact, no force user has been able to do what Rey has. Sure Anakin did amazing things in TPM... against droids. Had his ass handed to him by Dooku, an experienced force user. And again by Obi-Wan. Luke also did amazing things against non force users and was bitch slapped by Vader in ESB.

That's a huge issue with the ST. Explanations are half assed. The payoff for questions and mysteries are lackluster or non existent.

People love to say that Luke didn't have training and was suddenly using the force on Hoth. The big difference is that there is a time gap between ANH and ESB. So training with force ghost Obi-Wan could (and did) happen.

No time gap between TFA and TLJ. And we see the progress without training happening during TFA. It's not that she had to be the daughter of Obi-Wan to use the force. It's that she should have had training, like every other person needed.

Luke doesn't want to train her. Well she don't need no mentor! She'll train herself. The Jedi were in fact fools. Having a school for Jedi. Just be Rey... dumb ass (in Red Foreman voice)
 

mrkgoo

Member
This is another issue with TLJ, it retroactively makes TFA worse. I remember discussing Rey with friends, and we all had theories about her abilities. She is so and so's daughter, relative. She had memories repressed from her youth by someone (Luke?) in order to protect her/until she was strong enough, etc. It could even have been pulled off just by the fact that she was already proficient with a melee weapon (Rey had training in melee combat in general). We get zero.

TLJ just dumps this instant level-up bullshit on us. It doesn't even give us the benefit of a time jump like the OT, which meant Luke could have worked on his game during the off-season. You at least had gaps of unaccounted for time that we could work with in the OT (and even the PT). TLJ takes place immediately after TFA, and in an EXTREMELY short amount of time Rey levels up some more, her past is rendered unimportant/uninteresting and she gets over Kylo gutting Han Solo and crippling her BFF. WTF!

Btw, I agree, Yoda/Sheev shouldn't have been lightsaber users.

To be fair a lot of people seem to "forgive" Darth Vader for his crimes. Not in the movie, I mean the audience. Like he's not portrayed as a sympathetic villain at all in the OT yet generations love him. I guess he's that cool.

But perhaps more on point, Rey believed she could turn him and that doing so would be the end of the conflict. I don't think she's forgets what he's done.

We'll certainly see in Ep 9.

I always liked the idea that while the new trilogy is a send off for the old characters, that the first one was "Han's", the second "Luke's" and the third would be Leia's and somehow make it out that Leia was as integral to the prophecy (chosen one, balance of the force etc) as Luke. Like actually make her have a significance in that's regard.

Seems like an impossibility now.

I'm so excited to see what happens. After TFA, which I loved, but only accepted that as a soft remake it had to be done, all I wanted was something that didn't strictly adhere to a previous formula as closely. TLJ didn't that for me. It still parallels a lot of things and that's fine, but it has put Star Wars in a place where it can go anywhere. I'm hoping now that JJ brings it back around to feel a bit more like a cohesive trilogy with overall closure for this story. Seems like he would be a better choice than a third different director/writer.

Course it could go horribly wrong with more mystery boxes.
 

mrkgoo

Member
Just after TFA released, people thought that the reason Rey defeated Kylo was Luke's assistance. In a now "Legends" Star Wars book (Splinter of the Mind's Eye? i think) Luke fights Vader with the assistance of Obi Wan. Takes place between ANH and ESB. Force Ghost Obi-Wan guides Luke's actions. I think he even speaks to Vader as Obi-Wan at some point. When Obi-Wan tells Luke in ESB that if he chooses to face Vader he can't interfere... he was speaking about this event.

So that moment when Rey closes her eyes and suddenly the entire Rey vs Ren fight changes led people to think that Luke or Snoke or somebody was helping Rey.

Nope!!! Rey is just a boss. Kylo must feel foolish being beating by a newbie. He has trained for a decade. In fact, no force user has been able to do what Rey has. Sure Anakin did amazing things in TPM... against droids. Had his ass handed to him by Dooku, an experienced force user. And again by Obi-Wan. Luke also did amazing things against non force users and was bitch slapped by Vader in ESB.

That's a huge issue with the ST. Explanations are half assed. The payoff for questions and mysteries are lackluster or non existent.

People love to say that Luke didn't have training and was suddenly using the force on Hoth. The big difference is that there is a time gap between ANH and ESB. So training with force ghost Obi-Wan could (and did) happen.

No time gap between TFA and TLJ. And we see the progress without training happening during TFA. It's not that she had to be the daughter of Obi-Wan to use the force. It's that she should have had training, like every other person needed.

Luke doesn't want to train her. Well she don't need no mentor! She'll train herself. The Jedi were in fact fools. Having a school for Jedi. Just be Rey... dumb ass (in Red Foreman voice)
She's actually portrayed as not your typical "force-sensitive" individual, but rather one of the most powerful that Luke has come across (granted he probably hasn't come across many, but you know we trust his view).
 
She's actually portrayed as not your typical "force-sensitive" individual, but rather one of the most powerful that Luke has come across (granted he probably hasn't come across many, but you know we trust his view).
I think the line Luke says is "I've seen this raw power once before, it didn't scary me then but it does now". I think we are to assume he is talking about Ben. But if he was referring to say Yoda, Palpatine, Vader or even Obi-Wan, Rey still makes them seem weak.

And that is the big issue with Rey. What we see is no struggles. No moment where she has a weakness or desperate situation.

It makes Kylo weak by comparison. Why should Rey fear Kylo. She's already defeated him soundly.

And why is Rey determined to "save" Kylo? She has no connection to him. The few people she does/did are Chewy, Han, and Finn. Kylo murdered Han and almost killed Finn. The motivation there makes no sense to me.
 

mrkgoo

Member
I think the line Luke says is "I've seen this raw power once before, it didn't scary me then but it does now". I think we are to assume he is talking about Ben. But if he was referring to say Yoda, Palpatine, Vader or even Obi-Wan, Rey still makes them seem weak.

And that is the big issue with Rey. What we see is no struggles. No moment where she has a weakness or desperate situation.

It makes Kylo weak by comparison. Why should Rey fear Kylo. She's already defeated him soundly.

And why is Rey determined to "save" Kylo? She has no connection to him. The few people she does/did are Chewy, Han, and Finn. Kylo murdered Han and almost killed Finn. The motivation there makes no sense to me.
While she has raw strength, it's unrefined and uncontrolled as shown by how she gets the run around by Snoke in his throne room several times, including giving up skywalkers location. She has a high potential is all.

In this vein, Ben is able to defeat snoke where she could not.

She says in Last Jedi that the resistance is falling, and from TFA it is implied that she fantasises about a life outside hers, one of the rebellion and adventure/escapism (at least that's how I read her putting on the rebel pilot helmet and looking to the stars and ship taking off), so she believes in the resistance (again with her first interaction with finn of "you're with the resistance?!").

She says to Luke that she's brings a message that the resistance needs Luke. She comes to the conclusion with seeing kylo's mind that he "sides" with her that this could be how the resistance beats the first order, by having Ben turn.

The motivation isn't as much saving Ben but saving the resistance.
 
While she has raw strength, it's unrefined and uncontrolled as shown by how she gets the run around by Snoke in his throne room several times, including giving up skywalkers location. She has a high potential is all.

In this vein, Ben is able to defeat snoke where she could not.

She says in Last Jedi that the resistance is falling, and from TFA it is implied that she fantasises about a life outside hers, one of the rebellion and adventure/escapism (at least that's how I read her putting on the rebel pilot helmet and looking to the stars and ship taking off), so she believes in the resistance (again with her first interaction with finn of "you're with the resistance?!").

She says to Luke that she's brings a message that the resistance needs Luke. She comes to the conclusion with seeing kylo's mind that he "sides" with her that this could be how the resistance beats the first order, by having Ben turn.

The motivation isn't as much saving Ben but saving the resistance.
Motivation makes sense I guess.

However her potential with the force = needing no training doesn't make sense. In Star Wars it's shown that believing is important. Luke not believing is why he failed. Rey's look of disbelief while she is doing something is a head scratcher for me.

Anakin potential was high too. Still requiring years of training.
 

mrkgoo

Member
Motivation makes sense I guess.

However her potential with the force = needing no training doesn't make sense. In Star Wars it's shown that believing is important. Luke not believing is why he failed. Rey's look of disbelief while she is doing something is a head scratcher for me.

Anakin potential was high too. Still requiring years of training.
Yeah, I get that. doesn't bother me so much. I just go with the flow. a lot of Star Wars, especially regarding the "Force" doesn't make sense.

I mean the big one is the training itself, some wise old sage says the Force is an energy made by all living beings, and just talking about it ("reach out!", "feel the force flow through you!" "use the force, luke!") seems to amount to everything, so well, you know...it's a magical field controlling....everything.

And to be fair what have we really seen Rey do actively controlling the Force? make a stormtrooper release her, and lift some rocks? I think the big one is let the force guide her when defeating Kylo Ren in TFA and grab a lightsaber, but really, we haven't seen a lot of crazy Force action or anything.
 
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kunonabi

Member
Yeah, I get that. doesn't bother me so much. I just go with the flow. a lot of Star Wars, especially regarding the "Force" doesn't make sense.

I mean the big one is the training itself, some wise old sage says the Force is an energy made by all living beings, and just talking about it ("reach out!", "feel the force flow through you!" "use the force, luke!") seems to amount to everything, so well, you know...it's a magical field controlling....everything.

And to be fair what have we really seen Rey do actively controlling the Force? make a stormtrooper release her, and lift some rocks? I think the big one is let the force guide her when defeating Kylo Ren in TFA and grab a lightsaber, but really, we haven't seen a lot of crazy Force action or anything.

She repelled Kylo's mind probe who at that point was showing powers beyond anything seen in the original six films. For someone with no training she is doing a whole heck of a lot.
 

pramod

Banned
TLJ and Rian has done a lot of retconning, but I think one thing they totally broke was Rey's origin. So now Rey is a ultimate bad ass Force user that just came from nowhere, who just randomly happens to be on the same planet that Poe and Finn crash on and where the Millenium Falcon was stored....I mean..how convenient?..it just breaks believability....at least for me.

It's obvious the way JJ set it up originally in TFA was..that it WASN'T supposed to be random. That's why there was all this mystery surrounding her parents....we were made to believe her past had a link to present events, she was on that planet because she was supposed to be. Now that everything has been ret-conned so that she was just a super powerful Jedi who just randomly was at the right place at the right time...do they expect people to just simply accept that?

I know someone will argue...how about in EP4 when Leia's ship just happened to pass over Tatooine where Luke/Ben were located? Well, it wasn't really a coincidence:

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/que...he-rebel-blockade-runner-so-close-to-tatooine
 
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mrkgoo

Member
She repelled Kylo's mind probe who at that point was showing powers beyond anything seen in the original six films. For someone with no training she is doing a whole heck of a lot.

Eh, I hate single point back and forth on little things, because you can always come up with some explanation, and that explanation can easily be dismissed and so on so forth. I mean, yeah I do see her being more advanced as beginner than perhaps any arbitrary rules would entail, but it all worked ok for me, or I'd be able to shrug it off enough. But if I had to argue the point, I'd say "The Force has a strong influence on the weak-minded" - implying strong-willed individuals could probably resist or not as easily be influenced.

I mean, even in OT, you don't think Vader would've tried some mind probe on Leia to find the whereabouts of the rebel base? or at least part of her interrogation. She apparently resisted mind probes too. At any rate, my main point is that there aren't really any set rules to how all this works, so it either is ok for you in the movies or it's not. I'm ok if you're not. It was ok for me.

TLJ and Rian has done a lot of retconning, but I think one thing they totally broke was Rey's origin. So now Rey is a ultimate bad ass Force user that just came from nowhere, who just randomly happens to be on the same planet that Poe and Finn crash on and where the Millenium Falcon was stored....I mean..how convenient?..it just breaks believability....at least for me.

It's obvious the way JJ set it up originally in TFA was..that it WASN'T supposed to be random. That's why there was all this mystery surrounding her parents....we were made to believe her past had a link to present events, she was on that planet because she was supposed to be. Now that everything has been ret-conned so that she was just a super powerful Jedi who just randomly was at the right place at the right time...do they expect people to just simply accept that?

I know someone will argue...how about in EP4 when Leia's ship just happened to pass over Tatooine where Luke/Ben were located? Well, it wasn't really a coincidence:

https://scifi.stackexchange.com/que...he-rebel-blockade-runner-so-close-to-tatooine

Similarly, there are LOADS of "conveniences" in all the Star Wars movies. I'm usually able to hand wave them away, you know for the sake of an entertaining movie.

There are loads of problems I have with Last Jedi, but they don't really bug me enough - and I would argue that a lot of the story beats were done well for me. I do want to say, though, that a lot of what was considered "bad writing" or direction for the characters in TLJ are more issues with TFA, I feel (and I like TFA more as a movie). JJ and his mystery box - set cup a lot of new things with unknown answers, left for the 2nd instalment to answer - I kind of think that good answers were chosen. I mean, did we really want Rey to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi? that sounds lame. Before Last Jedi came out, I was really hoping that she was a nobody, because that actually was more to my liking, so I was ready to accept it.

I don't need everything to have an explicit explanation that has to link in with other established things.
 
Eh, I hate single point back and forth on little things, because you can always come up with some explanation, and that explanation can easily be dismissed and so on so forth. I mean, yeah I do see her being more advanced as beginner than perhaps any arbitrary rules would entail, but it all worked ok for me, or I'd be able to shrug it off enough. But if I had to argue the point, I'd say "The Force has a strong influence on the weak-minded" - implying strong-willed individuals could probably resist or not as easily be influenced.

I mean, even in OT, you don't think Vader would've tried some mind probe on Leia to find the whereabouts of the rebel base? or at least part of her interrogation. She apparently resisted mind probes too. At any rate, my main point is that there aren't really any set rules to how all this works, so it either is ok for you in the movies or it's not. I'm ok if you're not. It was ok for me.



Similarly, there are LOADS of "conveniences" in all the Star Wars movies. I'm usually able to hand wave them away, you know for the sake of an entertaining movie.

There are loads of problems I have with Last Jedi, but they don't really bug me enough - and I would argue that a lot of the story beats were done well for me. I do want to say, though, that a lot of what was considered "bad writing" or direction for the characters in TLJ are more issues with TFA, I feel (and I like TFA more as a movie). JJ and his mystery box - set cup a lot of new things with unknown answers, left for the 2nd instalment to answer - I kind of think that good answers were chosen. I mean, did we really want Rey to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi? that sounds lame. Before Last Jedi came out, I was really hoping that she was a nobody, because that actually was more to my liking, so I was ready to accept it.

I don't need everything to have an explicit explanation that has to link in with other established things.
Well for many of us who looked for answers prior to TLJ, we thought there would be something.

First who her parents were is a big part of the Rey character. A foundation stone if you will.

Jakku had importance to the Empire. It was their "last stand" and was the site of an imperial installation important to Palpatine.

Rey's parent revelation didn't bother me. I can see why it would for others. Lack of meaningful payoff.

Rey (imo) didn't need to come from the Skywalker or Palpatine family tree to explain her strength. The force choosing her to be the counter to Kylo is not an issue. But her non existent training is an issue (again imo). Completely disconnects the other 6 movies for me. Feels more "legends" to me then the now legends novels ect.

6198265-rey_rocks1.gif


While I understand that it's not a hang up for some, Rey's surprise while see is doing something is odd to me. Letting the force guide her is reasonable. But she seems to not be in the drivers seat.
 

OH-MyCar

Member
Poor Mark :(



The way they mischaracterize his feelings in that video is really slimy. "Mark was upset that he died, wasn't the star of the movie and relegated to the Obi Wan role" is just, for lack of a better word, bullshit. Mark has even expected to be in the Obi Wan role for over 30 years now because he had talks with George as far back as the OT.

There was a video floating around out there juxtaposing how glossy and propagandistic the Disney docs are compared to the oddly real and candid prequel ones and this really drives it home. It's as if they had to address Mark Hamill's feelings while still course-correcting everything into a masturbatory campaign ad.
 
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Matt_09

Member
TFA Rey vs. Kylo is better than anything in the prequels except for Darth Maul vs. Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan IMO, and John Williams and Ray Park are basically responsible for that scene being so good/fun. It's like an awesome scene (wish I could just delete the stupid space battle) inserted into an otherwise awful movie.

I see your point Matt_09, but since TLJ doesn't really deliver on any of the hype or Star Wars expectations, it is hard to fault pramod for being disappointed. I'm not a huge JJ fan by any stretch, but TFA is god-tier in comparison to TLJ.

The opening line from TFA was something I so badly wanted to hear ("This will begin to make things right"). And, while not flawless, TFA brought that SW feeling back, TLJ flushed all that hope completely down the toilet. We are back in prequel territory, sand anyone :-(

I disagree, and can't understand the comparison to the prequels ( they are awful and nowhere TLJ, but I also understand how disappointed many people felt). I love TLJ and it was a fresh break that I think the series needed. I also understand some of the reasons why people didn't like it. As for, pramod's post, I didn't criticise their opinion, just their inability to be objective.
 

mrkgoo

Member
Well for many of us who looked for answers prior to TLJ, we thought there would be something.

First who her parents were is a big part of the Rey character. A foundation stone if you will.

Jakku had importance to the Empire. It was their "last stand" and was the site of an imperial installation important to Palpatine.

Rey's parent revelation didn't bother me. I can see why it would for others. Lack of meaningful payoff.

Rey (imo) didn't need to come from the Skywalker or Palpatine family tree to explain her strength. The force choosing her to be the counter to Kylo is not an issue. But her non existent training is an issue (again imo). Completely disconnects the other 6 movies for me. Feels more "legends" to me then the now legends novels ect.

6198265-rey_rocks1.gif


While I understand that it's not a hang up for some, Rey's surprise while see is doing something is odd to me. Letting the force guide her is reasonable. But she seems to not be in the drivers seat.
Absolutely.

I think "not be in the drivers seat" is a good way of putting it, and I think it is deliberate as a softening of her being so powerful in that she's still learning. However, I can see why some consider this is a counter to the OT. Fair enough.

In the topic of light sabre battles, I love me a good battle - it's perhaps the single most icOnic thing to have come from Star Wars. I'm a little sad we didn't get a proper 1 on 1 battle in Last Jedi, but it is what it is. We got a couple of pseudo ones!
 

mrkgoo

Member
I just finished the documentary of the making that came with the movie. It's some really cool stuff. I really appreciate how much effort they put into making everything as practical as possible.
 
I finally watched it and I'm really mixed about this film. The more I think about the movie, the more I'm finding things to hate it. Way too many plotholes and deus ex machina that I can't just ignore them.

First of all, gravity in space? Seriously, wtf. The whole dreadnought bombing sequence was just ridiculous. Slow moving bombers that drop bombs...in space. But I guess it's not as ridiculous as Leia surviving the vacuum of space and magically propelling herself back to the ship. Even if you try to argue that she used the Force it still wouldn't make sense as she has never shown to be capable using the Force to such a degree.

Then we have the casino/codebreaker subplot, which was completely pointless. Flynn and Rose suddenly becomes two very stupid individuals. They understand the importance and urgency of their mission, yet after getting caught, they decided to flee and trust a questionable stranger who also happened to be in their cell and knew how to disable the tracker, despite the fact the viewers are told only 1 person is capable of that task. They also free some animals along the way instead of freeing the children slaves because..reasons. This whole arc was the result of the purple hair admiral (forgot her name) not telling Poe her plans. It's done for the sake of drama. It's lazy writing. And then she sacrifices herself to save everyone, but not before watching more transports get destroyed first. Why wait if you are going to ram the ship anyways? Why does she have to sacrifice herself in the first place? Does autopilot not exist in the universe??

Turns out Snoke was a meaningless villain. Having no backstory and receiving such a quick, cheap death felt like they just want to undo whatever plans they had for him and just sweep him under the rug.

In fact, I felt like this movie tries to undo a lot of things set up by previous films. Luke wanting to murder his own nephew is so out of character. I don't mind that he died as he was able to go out on his own terms but it was a wasted opportunity to be a mentor for Rey. I guess there's no need for Luke since they decided to make Rey have S tier Force abilities even though she never had any training whatsoever, which kinda contradicts previous films. The reveal of her parentage was a big disappointment, and poorly executed. The identity of her parents is supposed to a big moment for her character. It has been her biggest motivation so it's a big let down when it's revealed her parents are nobodies and she was just in denial the whole time. I think they want to present the same level of shock from Vader's reveal to Luke in ESB but they failed miserably.

Overall, the writing and pacing is quite weak. I understand the movie is part of the transition from old characters to new ones, but I felt like there's a lot of flip flopping of ideas for the characters and they didn't want go to the direction that was set up in TFA. The movie is great visually though. ILM always delivers on the VFX.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I thought it was very disappointing and showed potential for even more disappointment coming up.

Overall it was very fast and that cheapened all the fights. If you consider all the casualties it is quite severe, but it is a fast series of fights with little sense of gravity to them and then a quick #gotem before moving on to another.

I liked the idea of Rose and Finn as an unexpected relationship development but what it took to make it happen was an awkward mix of too much distraction from the main plot yet too little to believe Rose fell for him so hard. I mean maybe because of her sister dying she is choosing to be more brave in all things including love and choosing to trust the good she sees in people and give a damn? But that wasn’t shown well enough. The first film had a sense of lengthy journey to it and Rey and Finn were basically the first time either of them ever trusted someone so it could just barely work.

Rey and Kylo stuff had a lot of greatness that unfortunately seems like it wasn’t intentional. It really seemed to me like there was potential for them to flip sides. Despite Kylo’s rage and bad ambitions, he was demonstrating humility and wise insight, being honest with everything happening inside himself and the evil of his actions. That is Light growing. Despite Rey’s noble intentions, she was self-absorbed, blind to the dangers of her ambitions and the situations they were driving her into, and haughtily judged others who were trying to enlighten her. That is a Dark heart.

Do they go anywhere with this? Yeah, they go... right back to the extrmes of the first film. She is somehow able to resist Snoke’s influence (and btw he could somehow find her mind out in the galaxy when they had never even met? wtf?) despite being consumed with passion to strike him down, and Kylo goes into full dedication to evil when Rey turns down his invitation to power because it apparently wasn’t wisdom in him before, it was just a vague notion of “struggle” which he apparently just lost for no reason.

I also still hate The New Order. The Empire worked as a concept because Palpatine got the whole galaxy on board with establishing it, and then while they were known to be harsh, they really did bring stability and unity to the galaxy so there were many benefits to explain why people generally worked with it. How did The New Order form so easily? How did they get anyone on board when all they did was hate and destroy even worse than nazis? How the fuck did they get enough resources to turn a planet into a cannon? How are they so powerful AND entrenched so quickly that there aren’t more resistances? Especially when every single battle and leadership scene we’ve witnessed shows them to be utterly incompetent? Makes no sense fam.

And speaking of resistance movements, the revolutionary underdog shit is soooooo played out. I swear the people writing these must be all-out Marxists to not be tired of this old and one-dimensional doctrine and solution to all problems. It’s really sad when you can look at Ep 1-3 and go “Wow, this is far more nuanced and mindful of all aspects of civic systems, social trends, and political power dynamics” but to be fair at least TLJ isn’t as bad as the Rogue One championing nihilist existentialism as heroism.
 

mrkgoo

Member
I finally watched it and I'm really mixed about this film. The more I think about the movie, the more I'm finding things to hate it. Way too many plotholes and deus ex machina that I can't just ignore them.

First of all, gravity in space? Seriously, wtf. The whole dreadnought bombing sequence was just ridiculous. Slow moving bombers that drop bombs...in space. But I guess it's not as ridiculous as Leia surviving the vacuum of space and magically propelling herself back to the ship. Even if you try to argue that she used the Force it still wouldn't make sense as she has never shown to be capable using the Force to such a degree.

Then we have the casino/codebreaker subplot, which was completely pointless. Flynn and Rose suddenly becomes two very stupid individuals. They understand the importance and urgency of their mission, yet after getting caught, they decided to flee and trust a questionable stranger who also happened to be in their cell and knew how to disable the tracker, despite the fact the viewers are told only 1 person is capable of that task. They also free some animals along the way instead of freeing the children slaves because..reasons. This whole arc was the result of the purple hair admiral (forgot her name) not telling Poe her plans. It's done for the sake of drama. It's lazy writing. And then she sacrifices herself to save everyone, but not before watching more transports get destroyed first. Why wait if you are going to ram the ship anyways? Why does she have to sacrifice herself in the first place? Does autopilot not exist in the universe??

Turns out Snoke was a meaningless villain. Having no backstory and receiving such a quick, cheap death felt like they just want to undo whatever plans they had for him and just sweep him under the rug.

In fact, I felt like this movie tries to undo a lot of things set up by previous films. Luke wanting to murder his own nephew is so out of character. I don't mind that he died as he was able to go out on his own terms but it was a wasted opportunity to be a mentor for Rey. I guess there's no need for Luke since they decided to make Rey have S tier Force abilities even though she never had any training whatsoever, which kinda contradicts previous films. The reveal of her parentage was a big disappointment, and poorly executed. The identity of her parents is supposed to a big moment for her character. It has been her biggest motivation so it's a big let down when it's revealed her parents are nobodies and she was just in denial the whole time. I think they want to present the same level of shock from Vader's reveal to Luke in ESB but they failed miserably.

Overall, the writing and pacing is quite weak. I understand the movie is part of the transition from old characters to new ones, but I felt like there's a lot of flip flopping of ideas for the characters and they didn't want go to the direction that was set up in TFA. The movie is great visually though. ILM always delivers on the VFX.
You actually (understandably) bring up pretty much all the problems people have with the film, so your observation and analysis is at least on point.

They're all the things that kindness of stick out as a bit odd, but personally I was able to come to terms with the little things not because I found some individual explanation for each "plot hole" (which there actually is - but of course there is if you want to make all sorts of head canon), but from taking a step back and realising the more sort of global picture of Star Wars in what it is.

It's a space fantasy movie. Even within the scope of the OT, the rules for the universe were loose. It was never about finer details but rather the overall arc of the characters.

I think we are just much more demanding of little details and aware of movie continuity and realism than before such that everything comes under great scrutiny with very higher bar that has come since.

I've rewatched the OT since the newer movies have come out, and trying to have an objective and "modern day" critical eye, I think I'd be able to level all sorts of minute criticisms at any of them, on par with the kind that happens with the recent ones.

Why do spaceships mimic aerodynamics or have sound in space?

Why does look express more sadness a thing losing Ben than his uncle and aunt?

How does a Death Star get around?

Would an exploding planet really just be a shower of sparks?

Why not just tell Luke Vader is his father on Dagobah? I mean if it's that crucial that Luke not go into a trap to face Vader, why not tell him then? And what's their reasoning? "Not ready for the burden"? Yet he found out anyway? Good job, guys.

Why the hell bring a golden protocol droid and an r2 unit with wheels onto a covert mission onto a forest moon, where everyone else is in camouflage?

I kind of feel that if those movies released today they wouldn't pass the same level of scrutiny.

Now of course, maybe it is fair that a modern movie be put under such a harsh comb. I guess that's up to the individual viewer. But for me, in the same vein as the originals, for most of the little details there's enough of a leve of suspension of disbelief I can go "ok sure".

Am I just pulling a curtain over my eyes making some big excuse to cover for the flaws? Eh, maybe. But hell I did it for the other movies and had a ton of fun with those so why not here too.

Likewise I'm not a huge fan of where the prequels went with the backstory, but I still accept them as Star Wars and just enjoy the ride when I can.


Anyway, people are free to accept what works for them and what doesn't and to feel whether that makes it or breaks it for them, but do realise that a lot of the flaws were probably recognised by the film makers and while not dismissed as such as regarded as unimportant in the scheme of things.
 

pramod

Banned
Arguing about TLJ is becoming as tired as arguing over politics so im trying to move on from that.

I was actually trying to think of possible explanations for Rey's force powers and came up with a pretty crazy idea. What if Rey isn't really a Jedi, but is just a physical vessel or possessed by a dead Jedi? As to who that Jedi (or it could even be a Sith) is I have no idea... but it could explain how she has all these powers despite no training. So it's not really her own powers, but another Jedi channeling their powers through her. Maybe she is simply a conduit for a Force ghost?
 
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prag16

Banned
Rogue One championing nihilist existentialism as heroism.
Can't argue with most of this post, but with regard to Rogue One I have no clue what you're talking about here. Did we watch the same movie? Who are the existential nihilist characters in the movie? Not to sound condescending, but do you actually know what that means? I just can't at all square that statement with my understanding of the film (and it's not exactly an extremely deep film intellectually).
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Can't argue with most of this post, but with regard to Rogue One I have no clue what you're talking about here. Did we watch the same movie? Who are the existential nihilist characters in the movie? Not to sound condescending, but do you actually know what that means? I just can't at all square that statement with my understanding of the film (and it's not exactly an extremely deep film intellectually).
They had no idea that what they were doing was actually going to do any good, and none of them had any good reasons motivating them. They all basically said “Well, I’ll probably die for this maybe-useless thing, but I’ve only ever been a piece of shit person, so I may as well die doing something and maybe then I’ll be a meaningful piece of shit!”

They literally had a whole big conversation in the film about this, and all the characters seemed to think that’s what bravery and/or standing for values meant. Existentialist fulfillment 100% and since their actions were admittedly only certain to achieve death and a huge question mark for anything else, very nihilistic. Some of them even admitted that they didn’t even consider the rebels as “good guys” so they were literally just doing it to do a thing.
 
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pramod

Banned
You can kinda argue the entire Rebellion was an exercise in nihilism. In terms of resources and manpower they were probably outnumbered 100 to 1 by the Empire.
 

prag16

Banned
They had no idea that what they were doing was actually going to do any good, and none of them had any good reasons motivating them. They all basically said “Well, I’ll probably die for this maybe-useless thing, but I’ve only ever been a piece of shit person, so I may as well die doing something and maybe then I’ll be a meaningful piece of shit!”

They literally had a whole big conversation in the film about this, and all the characters seemed to think that’s what bravery and/or standing for values meant. Existentialist fulfillment 100% and since their actions were admittedly only certain to achieve death and a huge question mark for anything else, very nihilistic. Some of them even admitted that they didn’t even consider the rebels as “good guys” so they were literally just doing it to do a thing.
I don't really agree with that at all. Of course they knew the odds were long. Very long. What they were trying to achieve wasn't a question mark at all. The goal was very clear once Jyn and friends set sail for Scarif. Maybe I'm not remembering the exact scene you're talking about, but I don't remember confirmation that they all think none of what they're doing matters. Again, knowing the odds are long isn't the same as believing everything happening is meaningless. Hope is also a main theme that they bludgeon you with, and you see a lot of the idealism that the Rebellion is built on (even if a couple members of the motley crew who don't get a ton of depth may be more nihilistic in nature)..

You say "worse than TLJ" for this reason. But the fact that there's even room for nuance in this type of discussion already puts it ahead of TLJ for my money. Benicio Del Toro can carry the "nihilism" mantle for the series.

Man first star wars movie not buying the bluray on day of release :/

Same. -_- I'll definitely own it eventually. But fuck. Feels bad man.
 

mrkgoo

Member
I didn't think I would buy it straight away either, but not because it thought it was bad, but because everything I saw in the theatres (and I saw it twice) was kinda memorable, like there wasn't much else to "get" from owning it so soon.

But my wife hadn't seen it, so I went ahead, and ended up getting it - wound up watching the commentary and documentaries ahead of the movie.
 

kunonabi

Member
Man first star wars movie not buying the bluray on day of release :/

I think the only bit of Disney SW merchandise I own is the Disney Infinity 2-pack with Rey and Finn. I'm not even sure where they are as I only bought it for the toybox items. Hell, since the sale I've actually bought more AotC merchandise than anything related to the new films.
 

VertigoOA

Banned
Not buying it ever. Pretty crazy when I used to line up to buy every VHS re-release and the dvd, Blu-ray and digital releases that followed.

There’s no way Lucasfilm isn’t seriously debating cancelling Johnson’s trilogy; as if he earned it either!
 
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manfestival

Member
I refuse to buy this hot garbage. I actually liked the force awakens despite being disappointed by how basic it was. However the last jedi was just hot garbage. A very pretty and shiny turd.
 

VertigoOA

Banned
I refuse to buy this hot garbage. I actually liked the force awakens despite being disappointed by how basic it was. However the last jedi was just hot garbage. A very pretty and shiny turd.

I never understood how people thought it looked great either. Nothing really stood out to me. The art direction of the sequel trilogy is pretty shit as well. Just butchered versions of OT designs but bigger.

Rogue One legitimately was visually stunning. Incredible set pieces. The most vicious use of the Death Star onscreen. And jakku was really impressive. I thought people always liked to say that the OT trilogy looked “lived in.” Well everything is squeaky clean in the fan fiction trilogy.

Hell, even the william’s score was a massive disappointment. Each one of the Lucas Star Wars movies had specific themes for each movie and episode 8 just recycled classics.

Episode 8 is a fucking disaster and an abomination. I love how shills keep acting like the hate is minority opinion. Yea right!
 
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manfestival

Member
I never understood how people thought it looked great either. Nothing really stood out to me. The art direction of the sequel trilogy is pretty shit as well. Just butchered versions of OT designs but bigger.

Rogue One legitimately was visually stunning. Incredible set pieces. The most vicious use of the Death Star onscreen. And jakku was really impressive. I thought people always liked to say that the OT trilogy looked “lived in.” Well everything is squeaky clean in the fan fiction trilogy.

Hell, even the william’s score was a massive disappointment. Each one of the Lucas Star Wars movies had specific themes for each movie and episode 8 just recycled classics.

Episode 8 is a fucking disaster and an abomination. I love how shills keep acting like the hate is minority opinion. Yea right!
whats bizarre for me is that there were even times that the movie was even too dark to get a clear understanding of what was going on IN THE MOVIE THEATER. this was a first for me. rogue one had some great moments and I enjoyed it despite the forced and unnecessary love story attached. the last 15 minutes of the movie were fantastic too
 

prag16

Banned
whats bizarre for me is that there were even times that the movie was even too dark to get a clear understanding of what was going on IN THE MOVIE THEATER. this was a first for me. rogue one had some great moments and I enjoyed it despite the forced and unnecessary love story attached. the last 15 minutes of the movie were fantastic too
First Rogue One is supposedly glorifying nihilism, and now it also has a love story?

What movie did you guys watch. It wasn't the one I watched.

Calling the Jyn/Cassian stuff a love story is an Inspector Gadget level stretch.
 
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manfestival

Member
First Rogue One is supposedly glorifying nihilism, and now it also has a love story?

What movie did you guys watch. It wasn't the one I watched.

Calling the Jyn/Cassian stuff a love story is an Inspector Gadget level stretch.
there was also neogaf cynicism you apparently missed out on in the movie too
 
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