I dono, as a "brown" person, I personally never took this as them trying to say people with brown skin are evil. I always thought the darker skinned evil guys looked badass and "edgy-er". Like evil ken and ryu, they look cool as fuck to me. I think most games want to make their evil characters look "cool" and "edgy" in a way, and a darker color pallete adds to that, from the clothes to the skin tone. I feel like that's the sentiment when coming up with the skin tones, not that they think I'm an asshole lol.
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'Stop Giving Evil Characters Brown Skin'
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
- Start date
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Don't worry guys.
Japan doesn't have any preconception of black stereotypes.
Japan doesn't have any preconception of black stereotypes.
UnemployedVillain
Member
I hope no one was trying to say that
The problem with this explanation however, is that the lack of dark skinned heroes would then imply that "cool" or "edgy" is almost never a target for the player character... which is quite clearly not the case.
Damn... I'm very very naive or you have a dirty mind (it's that).To me it was pretty clear that as a Pirate well she was like all sailors always on a boat, under the sun, so was very very tan (and it's a fact, I've been living next to a harbor all my life and it's true, and obvious). When she comes back to her "true form" as the Princess Zelda, by magic, she comes back as the Princess she was, and a princess is always in a castle, can't go out a lot, is overprotected, etc etc, so is very very pale, it's also a fact.
You're 2nd exemple though, it's cleary fucked up, I agree about this one.
I just felt feel like this is a rather convenient deflection tbh
Like imo it'd just be easier to say look, magic went and made her look like the previous Zeldas, taking away her tan because why not. The extra justification just comes off as being silly.
This reminds me of Ippo. Because one of the boxers is black he is taller, stronger and faster than your average fighter.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
Should Western games not be designed work Western color theory in mind? If not, which cultures should the games take their color schemes from? Wouldn't that clash with the idea that games companies have to take into account the mindsets of the markets the games release in? Should every game change their symbolism in each regional version of the same software so that nobody is offended?
I'm not being obtuse for the sake of it, I'm generally curious how people can use these sorts of arguments without seeming to follow them to their logical conclusion beforehand.
To switch gears for a second, I think the industry is approaching a dangerous crossroads where a lot more nuanced design is necessary so that audiences can differentiate better between reckless prejudice and inclusivity. I personally want to see more poc's in my games but that's also going to come with them sometimes being portrayed as the villains. It's going to take more focus and consideration by designers to make sure they get that right, and it will take some patience in our part too as we go through this transitional period.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Also it's not just a dark skin thing lol. Good luck finding a Chinese character in japanese media that isn't a martial artist or a chef or a bad guy for the protagonist to defeat.
It's honestly not an explanation, just how I've percieved it. When I say "cool" and "edgy", I mean it as a stark contrast to the usually bright color pallete of the usual main character (which is usually aimed at looking cool too just in another way).
Like to me regular ken and ryu look cool, and the evil ken and ryu look cool in an "edgy-er" sort of way (sorry for the overuse of this lame word :'()
SixMachine
Member
Interestingly enough, angels in a some writings look beyond comprehension and look scary as hell. The Shin Megami Tensei games really run with this and some angel and god designs look pretty evil. Law isn't necessarily good in these games either.
I said nothing about how Western games should be designed. I was responding to an individual who literally said that color symbolism is universal across all cultures. There's no argument to "follow to a logical conclusion." You're tilting at windmills.
It's still not good though. Personally it feels just like rascism within a same race. Pushing people lower on a cast system because they are born with darker skin or work laybor in the sun just feels gross to me.
I know we don't live in a perfect world but stuff like this should be gone by now.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
More than fine with it. A lot of people I know love it myself included. I love playing my characters with dark skin pallets
LOL, this reminded me of when Yoshinori Ono san met a Brazilian pressman on a GDC back in 2008, and he said that he was sorry about Blanka being weird, and was worried about Brazilians being mad at him because of that, and everybody was like WHAT THE F, WE EFFIN LOVE BLANKA! EVERYBODY LOVES BLANKA!
Nostremitus
Member
Angels are described similarly to eldrich horrors in the Christian Old Testament. It's just that over time they, too, were whitewashed as beautiful dainty creatures.
We should use the appropriate words (even though both are gross they are different), which in this case your looking for classism.
LinkAndEpona
Banned
You're being sarcastic, right?
SenkiDala
Member
I don't agree. I mean the Zelda always made a nice "use" of dark skinned people, the Gerudos are one of the most important race in the game, they are at the same time: women, dark skinned, strong warriors, brave, etc. They even made Ganondorf, the badboy of the serie, GREEN (no really, it's green) even though he's a Gerudo, to make a difference between him and the others of his race.
I'm 100% sure that in WW the "Tanned Zelda" as a Pirate and "Pale Zelda" as a Princess is just about being under the sun as a pirate and being always locked in as a princess. It's just so obvious. I thought about your opinion but to me it really makes no sense at all. And about "hey but how could she lose her tan so fast", come on. Zelda. Fairies. Elves. Excalibur. A moon with a face... Magic exists in this world. Like in fairy tails when frogs turn into a prince or something.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Pretty much every anime game does it, but probably less out of a sense of progressiveness and more out of a sense of necessity.
SF used to do it when the games were 2D, but since the shift to 3D they've had costumes for customization options, so a lot of the color palettes became simple costume color changes vs detailed palette swaps with effort put into color balance and contrast. MK is sort of in the same boat, but never really did this because like half its roster consisted of color swaps in the old games.
It's a feature that's appreciated none the less by people like me though.
Kageshinzo
Member
Dude, I live in SEA, I know all about the obsession with skin whitening creams, and why people here spend obscene amounts of money on whiteners. Like I said, I know its history. But to compare the degree of prejudice and attitude against darker skinned people in this region to the racial issues in the West is disingenuous when it's obvious which one is worse. I'm saying that degree has allowed me a certain viewpoint that is not as charged as some people here, and why I can say that darkening a character's skin to portray how they've become evil doesn't necessarily carry a racial undertone because the concept of light = good, dark = evil has been around since time immemorial.
That is why localizations exist though. If the concept is such a charged one in the West, pubs can (and have) make changes on the local end. Again, the only issue I have is tarring the concept in a racial brush when that concept does not carry the same connotations in other regions. It's like everything is being put in a Western context, even in places where such issues are largely a non-factor.
Oh, I don't deny that, and I am strongly with the idea that several viewpoints (especially those coming from minorities) need to be elevated from their current levels. But the thing is people need to also consider context, especially in the West, since not everyone has a Western perspective.
No, it's cool, I get what you're saying. I'm just saying that the "edgy" in these cases basically translates directly to evil. Even if you have what would be considered a purposely edgy-as-fuck character (like say Dante in DMC) you still won't find such characters designed with darker skin if they're supposed to be portrayed as a good, and especially not as the main protagonist.
But the white represents aggressiveness while the black is calmness.
Like I said, I don't think the media is the sole source of this idea but people who continue to use the trope are perpetuating it. It doesn't even mean they are doing it because they consciously believe darker skinned people in real life are more evil but the end result is still the same, it spreads the idea that darker = more evil.
As a personal example, I used to use gay as pejorative. I did it when I was younger and it wasn't become of seething hatred of gay people, I didn't know anyone who was gay. I just did it because everyone else did and never thought about it. It was until someone pointed it out that I did think about what was I doing by associating and perpetuating the idea gay = bad that I eventually stopped. That clearly didn't solve homophobia in the world but you can't expect it stop without trying to curb sources of where it could spread.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
I also think it's kind of funny to see people explain away Evil Ryu as something Capcom did back in the day when they didn't know any better when they just made Violent Ken for the new SF2 release that dropped a week ago.
It's literally like the only reference made to any black characters in the entire series. Like I see black fans have to resort to projecting black features onto white characters because of the lack of significant POC in One Piece
Remember when this happened in One Piece
It's literally like the only reference made to any black characters in the entire series. Like I see black fans have to resort to projecting black features onto white characters because of the lack of significant POC in One Piece
SixMachine
Member
Remember when this happened in One Piece
That's actually pretty funny. It feels like this gives off more a vibe of boasting, since it really doesn't seem demeaning (sort of like exclaiming how awesome it is). The big 70s Afros seems pretty much are a gag these days, even things like Black Dynamite use it as a laughing point. I think people respect afros more than mullets, because the latter is associated with rednecks and crazies.
Lionel Richie
Member
Oh absolutely, I agree 100% with you. But my problem are with threads talking through western perceptions on something created by eastern people who live in a completely different culture and have completely different ethnic issues, you more often than not have 2 sides (one defending and one attacking) and not a lot of explanation is provided on how their views differ from ours.
Violent Ken is a pre-existing character that was in SNK Vs. Capcom (2003) and was based on the psycho power infused Ken from Street Fighter II: The Animated Movie (1994).
lol. These games are all made in Japan...
So your argument is... Classism in Asia isn't as bad as racism in the US, so negative associations with dark skin are fine? Juh?
As people have pointed out, dark being evil is not nearly as universal as you think.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Well I'm glad to see that both the Satsui no Hado and Psycho power both have the same effect on skin color
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
I was merely adding your response to the general reception that the thread participants have shown, and I don't think he implied that's how all cultures view color theory and symbolism, but just his own misconception that it was the most commonly accepted use of colors do symbolize good and evil.
You're punching at flower baskets.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Much higher than the ratio of dark skinned protagonists vs white protagonists unfortunately.
Lol they are being sold all over the world. Lol racism and classism are also issues in Japan which intersect with skin tone.
starchild excalibur
Member
A "positive" stereotype is still a stereotype. It'd be no different than if he was bragging about having a huge penis. It's still dumb. And as a black dude I see the word "primal" associated with blackness and I don't think, "That's a good association."
There's also something to be said about authorship. I love Black Dynamite, but Black Dynamite was created by black people and it's a spoof of a genre. The jokes are much more about the conventions of the genre (the bad editing, weak plotting, inconsistencies) than it is about blackness or telling jokes at the expense of blackness. I don't think there's literally one joke about an afro in the whole film.
I know fuck-all about Japanese people. If I wrote some comic about harnessing the strength of Japanese people to become a math genius I'd be rightly excoriated by people.
It's been a loooooong time since I've read it, but isn't there a dude with ice powers that's black?
But yeah, for a series with as huge a roster as one piece's it pretty disappointing.
That particular class prejudice was really common in Europe until post WW2 when getting a tan became a badge of affluence by being able to travel. Tanned skin was always associated with field work, ie being a peasant.
He's explicitly claiming those color schemes to be universal. You're jumping on grain silos.
LinkAndEpona
Banned
Has this even been done before? Obviously it was to give his name some meaning even if for a humorous gimmick and it worked extremely well.
Cole would be my favorite character from the series if Marcus wasn't voiced by the same guy who does Jake on Adventure Time and Bender from Futurama.
Glitter and Gold
Banned
That's one of the characters I meant when I mentioned people who project onto characters with "black features" (curly hair, thicker lips)
because Aokiji(the character you describe) is inspired by a japanese actor from old yakuza movies. A theme shared among all the Admirals
WrenchNinja
Member
It doesn't sound like you do if you want to go up and bat for this shit.
Your viewpoint isn't any more special than mine.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
I've never in my life jumped on a single grain silo... Much less actually saw one in person now that I think of it. Are grain silos a thing anymore? Or do they just look so different these days that you wouldn't notice one you came across?
veloxStrix
Banned
The Clark Doll Study is mandatory watching. Hilarious. The Clarks drove children into epistemological traps that drove children to tears. And if they were initially concerned or confused by these reactions the first round of experiments, certainly by the fifth, sixth, seventh, or eighth year they had come to expect that reaction. Imagine you are a five year old child - alone in a room with an adult but comforted by the fact that the room and initial questions are designed to supplement that comfort. And then, in an instant, those comfortable, simple, safe questions shift into impossible, difficult, even disturbing questions. How would that shift your reaction? Add into that the factor that the children had no clue how many of these questions would be asked. Six? Seven? Eight? Twenty? One-hundred??
What you don't see from the Clark Doll video is that the binary decisions the Clarks demanded from those children forced them into a situation where they would have to either liken themselves dangerously to a black doll or reject their own racial identity. Many children created a third option by refusing to answer or acting out violently. Why don't we throw the video of the Clarks scripting of the dolls before the experiments? Where are those videos?
What you don't see from the Clark Doll video is that the binary decisions the Clarks demanded from those children forced them into a situation where they would have to either liken themselves dangerously to a black doll or reject their own racial identity. Many children created a third option by refusing to answer or acting out violently. Why don't we throw the video of the Clarks scripting of the dolls before the experiments? Where are those videos?
Your misreadings are on you.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Also as much as i love Overwatch the main villain group are 2 latinos and a white chick who got darker skin when she became evil.
UnemployedVillain
Member
Remember when this happened in One Piece
I actually read that was a mistranslation that didn't originally mention black people at all
Glitter and Gold
Banned
Yeah. Where are they?? lol
I agree that the study is a bit archaic by modern standards and the video is somewhat manipulative emotionally.
but since the Clark Doll Study there have been many more sophisticated tests and experiments conducted on the subject and they have more or less confirmed the same thing. So you'll hear no objection from me if you'd like to throw out the Clark Doll Study in place of one of those.
It's still a character explaining how wearing an Afro will make his friend better at boxing due to it awakening his "latent primal powers".
Even if the translation doesn't equate to "the blacks"(lol) there's not much room there for the implicit meaning to change much
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