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[plagiarize]

considering her lack of intelligence is played for laughs in many of her appearances i don't know how you could see it otherwise

she's joker's "trophy wife"

Holy balls, no, she isn't.

She is a qualified psychiatrist who the Joker drove mad and who has become unhealthy obsessed over him. The Joker does not reciprocate much if at all to her effections but keeps her around because she is useful to him.

That is not a bimbo. She doesn't lack intelligence. She has an unhealthy obsession with a maniac. That doesn't make her a sex object, or an idiot who will sleep with anyone.

 

[Sai-kun]

I'm just pleased to have my male Xenobooty.

Now that's firm.

now that's a flat ass

 

[kcp12304]

Not at all its just the animation style. AK has that exact costume and the originals from the arkhamverse are much more tame.

But that costume isn't the default. She isn't "tame" in the game.

Edit: I've played them all except Arkham Knight.

 

[Grover]

Play the game and have a female friend / female significant other watch ... i'm 90% sure she'll roll her eyes so much that it hurts.

my gf loves catwoman's ass more than i do

 

[- J - D -]

aye. harley was originally literally ENTIRELY covered in clothes and makeup

here's how she's depicted in Arkham Asylum and Arkham City.

Her standard Arkham Knight outfit omits the exposed waist and thong. Just that change somehow makes it infinitely more chaste than previous versions in the Arkham game series.

boob window takes a greater dive though, lol.

 

[Crocodile]

I am intrigued by the conclusion that - if the game design skews the player into objectifying the playable character, this stands in the way of the player properly identifying with the character.

I think this is why Rey in TFA resonated with so many people. Her clothing was so saggy, so non-sexualized. The only skin she showed was her calves and her upper arms.

The sentiment of "I want to be that person" seems to strongly conflict with the sentiment of "I want to be with that person"

I dunno, I feel there's a lot of reaching in this post? Maybe you are right on but I guess you'd have to interview a lot of people on their feelings on Rey and why they may have liked her. I personally felt she was a bit boring and that they clearly pushed too much of her development/backstory to future films for me to really get a good vibe on her but I couldn't tell you how pervasive that feeling is. Also if Tumblr is at all an accurate reflection of fanbase sentiment, there are NO shortage of people, of either gender, crushing on her

Even if there's an in-universe explanation that doesn't change the fact that there's a ridiculous amount of women showing their butt all the time compared to how many men and even versus other important women NPCs that don't.

It's pervasive, and very much so is all.

This has always been a part of this discussion that is hard to navigate. I feel most people can agree that there are certainly pervasive patterns in representation across the industry that are less than ideal but that most individual examples in any one game/series are usually fine by most reasonable standards. We get to the issue though that whenever something a new game/project does something that might, even slightly, fall in line with those trends presents itself it might engender heavy scrutiny and criticism. Whether that scrutiny or criticism is fair will vary from person to person and example to example but there can be that weird conflict that I sometimes personally find hard to reconcile. It's perhaps why I trend towards applying positive reinforcement to things I feel buck trends in positive ways rather than negative reinforcement to those that may play close to current trends (unless I truly feel they are egregious) though I recognize that other voices with other angles of attack are good and have value even if I may disagree with them on example A or example B.

The Arkham games are pretty bad when it comes to their female characters. From Arkham City's sexist slurs to Arkham Knight's damsels needing saving again and again. And that's not even addressing the design of cat woman, poison ivy, or harlequinn

I was going to ask if it was the writing that was at play but then you filled this post in between the time I saw it and the time I quoted it

I will go on record saying I still think Bruce Tim's Harlequin (i.e. the very first version of the character) is still the best version of her from a design perspective.

EDIT:

Best Harlequin <3

 

[dark10x]

Wait, I also see that she pulled the Beyond Good & Evil box art used in Europe. The American box art is completely different and unrelated to this topic. Bizarre.

 

[CryptiK]

Now imagine the underwear she would be in in the Arkham verse in a private moment at home with the Joker.

And how she'd be sitting and moving.

Thats not the entire scene. And there is more when she becomes "reformed". She has always been like this Arkham did nothing new.

 

[Golnei]

There isn't even a bulge there omg

that's another issue that could be brought up actually, most male video game characters are flat or near flat even when wearing skintight clothing (like Batman)

It could probably be assigned to the same instinctual disgust that led to Geralt going blank-crotched because nobody wanted to model his dick, and couldn't conceive the notion of someone wanting to see it. It doesn't even have to be as extreme as showing an actual dick - even when men are given costumes intended to be sexy, like Chris' sailor outfit in RE Revelations or Postman Link; their crotches lack even the barest suggestion of a bulge.

Notably, this is something that was averted in MGS2 - even though Raiden's naked model was blank, his Skull Suit had some suggestion of anatomical detail.

 

[plagiarize]

Catwoman's suit is massively impractical. It would severely hinder her cat burglary in the real world, and somehow I doubt this stealthy cat burglar values potentially distracting a man trying to stop her cat burgling over her actual ability to cat burgle.

She is dressed like that (and presented as she is) by the comic book writers and game designers so that she is serially appealing to men. End of.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Holy balls, no, she isn't.

She is a qualified psychiatrist who the Joker drove mad and who has become unhealthy obsessed over him. The Joker does not reciprocate much if at all to her effections but keeps her around because she is useful to him.

That is not a bimbo.

she's useful for swinging giant hammers and other dumb henchmen things. Her other purpose is to be the dimwitted, naiive target of joker's humor.

Definition of bimbo: "an attractive but empty-headed young woman, especially one perceived as a willing sex object." That seems apt.

also, FYI, while it's not super relevant, she isn't properly qualified.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Came for butt covering pictures., watched a video instead.

I am not quite sure what point she is making, is she wanting more male butt ?

See Nathan Drake I guess ?

Walk down the high street, most girls like to show off their butts in tight clothing below a certain age and both sexes are ok with that..
Few guys wear tight jeans.

If I want to play a game with lots of shooting and killing I dont really need to relate closely to the character I am playing as. The style can suit the game, lets not make a big deal here.

Thats all there is to it.

If you actually watched the entire video, and didn't come here to derail, you might have noticed she literally answered all of your questions.

 

[Fliesen]

I dunno, I feel there's a lot of reaching in this post? Maybe you are right on but I guess you'd have to interview a lot of people on their feelings on Rey and why they may have liked her. I personally felt she was a bit boring and that they clearly pushed too much of her development/backstory to future films for me to really get a good vibe on her but I couldn't tell you how pervasive that feeling is. Also if Tumblr is at all an accurate reflection of fanbase sentiment, there are NO shortage of people, of either gender, crushing on her

yeah, no. i don't think i need to interview a lot of people.
* People love Rey.
* Rey's not at all sexualized. She wears space-uggs.

both of those are facts. Sure, you can still crush on her, i don't mind that. But she's not designed to "seduce" you into crushing on her.

 

[aeolist]

Thats not the entire scene. And there is more when she becomes "reformed". She has always been like this Arkham did nothing new.

arkham gave her d cups, cleavage, and torn up stockings at the very least

 

[plagiarize]

Naive? Perhaps. Blinded by obsession? Sure. Dim-witted?

She's an MD.

 

[CryptiK]

But that costume isn't the default. She isn't "tame" in the game.

Edit: I've played them all except Arkham Knight.

She is exactly how she was in the TV series. The Costume from the TV series in game leaves 0 to the imagination. At she is more somewhat covering her I dunno silhouette.

Naive? Perhaps. Blinded by obsession? Sure. Dim-witted?

She's an MD.

She sure is she slept her way there.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I dunno about number 4 she talks about context(why they wear what they do) in this video then goes and includes Arkham games if she had actual played the games she'd understand the context as to why Catwoman or Ivy etc wears that type of clothing. Using Arkham as an example then talking about how context would make it better kind of discredits her video a little imo.

I played the Arkham games for literally hundreds of hours and I still don't get it. Please enlighten me.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

It could probably be assigned to the same instinctual disgust that led to Geralt going blank-crotched because nobody wanted to model his dick, and couldn't conceive the notion of someone wanting to see it. It doesn't even have to be as extreme as showing an actual dick - even when men are given costumes intended to be sexy, like Chris' sailor outfit in RE Revelations or Postman Link; their crotches lack even the barest suggestion of a bulge.

Notably, this is something that was averted in MGS2 - even though Raiden's naked model was blank, his Skull Suit had some suggestion of anatomical detail.

Yeah, I touched on the Witcher thing in one of my earlier posts. So sad considering the detail they went in to on the female models (like that one character where every time she leaned over you got the slightest view of nipple. Like... wow)

 

[Sblargh]

Good video.
Anita is very good at pointing things out that, after the fact, seem obvious. But I had never thought about this specific trend before.

 

[Corronchilejano]

um

what

she's literally a bimbo girlfriend in a skintight suit and was notoriously sexualized in a children's cartoon

An episode showing the character in a sexual setting does not inmediately turn the character into a bimbo. And it's not like this was how Harley was constantly shown, she was always the jokers right hand

Spoiler

even when he tried to do things with one tied behind his back.

 

[Memorabilia]

My dude you need to tone down the mansplaining. Holy shit. This post reads like something off of reddit or 4chan.

Lol I hear ya, but that agenda driven bullshit was so off base I didn't feel like there was another option aside from just throwing my hands in the air. Sometimes mansplaining might be a necessary evil.

 

[Sylas]

Came for butt covering pictures., watched a video instead.

I am not quite sure what point she is making, is she wanting more male butt ?

See Nathan Drake I guess ?

Walk down the high street, most girls like to show off their butts in tight clothing below a certain age and both sexes are ok with that..
Few guys wear tight jeans.

If I want to play a game with lots of shooting and killing I dont really need to relate closely to the character I am playing as. The style can suit the game, lets not make a big deal here.

Thats all there is to it.

You do realize that few guys wear tight pants because few guys have anything resembling an idea of fashion. Baggy-ass jeans that show off nothing aren't appealing to basically anyone. Overall that's a really daft point to make because it's really just emphasizing the idea that women are encouraged to care about their looks while men aren't. :')

Lol I hear ya, but that agenda driven bullshit was so off base I didn't feel like there was another option aside from just throwing my hands in the air. Sometimes mansplaining might be a necessary evil.

I mean, if you genuinely feel like mansplaining is a necessary evil maybe you should take a step back and figure out why you need to take an authoritative tone that diminishes anything the other person might have to say. It's counterproductive and doesn't serve any purpose, really. If you don't agree and you find it totally off-base--oftentimes it's probably a better idea to just not say anything at all? Maybe that's just me.

 

[plagiarize]

An episode showing the character in a sexual setting does not inmediately turn the character into a bimbo. And it's not like this was how Harley was constantly shown, she was always the jokers right hand

Spoiler

even when he tried to do things with one tied behind his back.

Like I said, imagine how the Arkham games would have shown a private moment like this between Harley and the Joker.

 

[Quote]

We need a new definition for the people finding any resemblance with the TV show Harley Quinn and Arkham. "Reaching" isn't doing justice.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Wait, I also see that she pulled the Beyond Good & Evil box art used in Europe. The American box art is completely different and unrelated to this topic. Bizarre.

She's using it as an example of the trope, nothing more. And it could easily be replaced with the countless other examples.

She is a fan of Beyond G&E as well, again perhaps showing that you can enjoy something while being critical of it.

 

[Kinyou]

Naive? Perhaps. Blinded by obsession? Sure. Dim-witted?

She's an MD.

From the origin story "Mad Love" written by Paul Dini and Bruce Timm

 

[ArjanN]

Great video. The men's bottoms being intentionally covered was not something I'd ever noticed before, but the part where she tried in vain to get a look at Batman's bum actually made me laugh. The contrast between all those waist-high angles, cloth flaps and long jackets with the womens' super wedgies and highly exaggerated hip sways was impossible to ignore.

To be fair Batman seems like a bad example because that's a character that already always had a cape.

 

[Crocodile]

I'd love to hear the critique levied agaisnt Anita that you agree with when it comes to over-looking or ignoring context for her various criticisms of female representation in video games.

Additionally, it is incredibly rare to see a contextual justification for the sexualization or sexist representation of women in video games. Usually the reason for why there is boobs and butts all over my monitor when I'm playing a game is never explained or justified - it's mostly just boils down to that developers thought that their male player base would dig it (or that the devs themselves dig it).

So, "context matters" might be true, but very rarely have I seen any context for all that lazy sexist representation of female characters in video games.

Well I mean, pulling from this video, I don't think an ass-shot of Bayonetta means the same thing as an ass shot of Jade. They are different characters with different roles living in different worlds with different goals. A Jade ass-shot makes me raise an eyebrow, a Bayonetta ass-shot strikes me as a non-issue? Like we bring up that Mass Effect 2 screenshot all the time because it truly is fucking jarring but I'm not convinced the camera in Tomb Raider 1 hurts Lara Croft as a character? Is it more clear what I mean?

 

[Sblargh]

If we are talking about Harley Queen and how she originally was vs. how she is now, this is obligatory:

http://comicsalliance.com/harley-quinn-paul-dini-bruce-timm-dc-ask-chris/

That’s what makes the end of Mad Love so tragic and affecting, because we all want there to be hope for her, just like we want there to be hope for ourselves that we can get over our broken hearts and move on, but for Harley, there never is. No matter what the Joker does to her, no matter how blatantly he’s manipulating and abusing her, she just can’t get out.

Read More: Ask Chris #173: The Trouble With Harley Quinn | http://comicsalliance.com/harley-quinn-paul-dini-bruce-timm-dc-ask-chris/?trackback=tsmclip

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Lol I hear ya, but that agenda driven bullshit was so off base I didn't feel like there was another option aside from just throwing my hands in the air. Sometimes mansplaining might be a necessary evil.

Yuck.

 

[PtM]

This is very well timed with that SFV thread where everyone is posting gifs of female characters and drooling. thanks capcom!

Um, it's always been there like that since forever&#8230;

Nice video, though no real eye-openers for me this time.

 

[Basketball]

arkham gave her d cups, cleavage, and torn up stockings at the very least

give her the form fitting classic outfit then

expired gifs

 

[Hellwarden]

she's useful for swinging giant hammers and other dumb henchmen things. Her other purpose is to be the dimwitted, naiive target of joker's humor.

Definition of bimbo: "an attractive but empty-headed young woman, especially one perceived as a willing sex object." That seems apt.

also, FYI, while it's not super relevant, she isn't properly qualified.

I feel like they've branched out with Harley's character though. Sure she's sexualized, but that's comics. Almost everyone is sexualized. (Though not equally.)

In fact, it's implied in multiple variations of her character that she may be a bigger danger to Batman than the Joker, since she doesn't have his hangups.

Her game depictions leave a bit to be desired though.

 

[Fliesen]

We need a new definition for the people finding any resemblance with the TV show Harley Quinn and Arkham. "Reaching" isn't doing justice.

I think one issue is:

TV harley is provocative and can act sexy if she wants to. She keeps agency over her when and how she uses her sexuality.

Game Harley is pretty much jerk-off material.

As soon as you have to google specific situations or story arks to prove that one depiction of the character uses her sexuality over any screenshot ever of the other depiction, one of them is clearly more sexualized.

 

[Fencedude]

I dunno about number 4 she talks about context(why they wear what they do) in this video then goes and includes Arkham games if she had actual played the games she'd understand the context as to why Catwoman or Ivy etc wears that type of clothing. Using Arkham as an example then talking about how context would make it better kind of discredits her video a little imo.

Ah yes, it was definitely 100% required for Poison Ivy to wear nothing but a pair of panties and a nearly unbuttoned shirt

For Sure

 

[Sagely]

To be fair Batman seems like a bad example because that's a character that already always had a cape.

You're right about the cape, I was a bit too quick to jump on that one. And as someone else pointed out, the male characters in the Arkham games do have lovingly crafted asses if you go into the model viewers or check out different costumes. I still agree with the video that man ass seems to be either deliberately covered or simply ignored in a lot of cases though!

 

[Crocodile]

yeah, no. i don't think i need to interview a lot of people.
* People love Rey.
* Rey's not at all sexualized. She wears space-uggs.


both of those are facts. Sure, you can still crush on her, i don't mind that. But she's not designed to "seduce" you into crushing on her.

No you're stating that people like and ID with Rey specifically and primarily because because she isn't very sexualized. You posted two independently true statements but you've failed to actually demonstrate a causative link (and if there is one that it is significant) between them. I'm not sure how you'd be able to do that sans statistically sound polling though.

 

[Grover]

thats from a CG trailer right? that looks really good

 

[Sai-kun]

Ah yes, it was definitely 100% required for Poison Ivy to wear nothing but a pair of panties and a nearly unbuttoned shirt

For Sure

now THIS looks like a character that has to breathe through her skin!!!

 

[Sagroth]

Telling.

Yes, VERY telling that she can't allow comments on any of her videos for fear of a further deluge of sexism, harassment, and death threats. That gamers can't stomach a civil discourse on these issues is shameful.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I think one issue is:

TV harley is provocative and can act sexy if she wants to. She keeps agency over her when and how she uses her sexuality.

Game Harley is pretty much jerk-off material.

As soon as you have to google specific situations or story arks to prove that one depiction of the character uses her sexuality over any screenshot ever of the other depiction, one of them is clearly more sexualized.

i don't know in what universe skintight bodysuits aren't sexualized other than the one where people feel the need to prove a point

like poison ivy and catwoman, harley has been sexualized since her inception. It's just a problem with her character in general.

 

[CryptiK]

Ah yes, it was definitely 100% required for Poison Ivy to wear nothing but a pair of panties and a nearly unbuttoned shirt

For Sure

Well one trait of the character is to control the situation with her sexuality. Poison Ivy has always been like that. And people saying Arkham ghave harley d cups are also wrong. The comics did this again well before the games and thats where some of her costumes are based.

You're right about the cape, I was a bit too quick to jump on that one. And as someone else pointed out, the male characters in the Arkham games do have lovingly crafted asses if you go into the model viewers or check out different costumes. I still agree with the video that man ass seems to be either deliberately covered or simply ignored in a lot of cases though!

If I remember correctly Nightwings ass gets a decent bit of screen time espcially in the slow mo take downs.

 

[Fliesen]

No you're stating that people like and ID with Rey specifically and primarily because because she isn't very sexualized. You posted two independently true statements but you've failed to actually demonstrate a causative link (and if there is one that it is significant) between them. I'm not sure how you'd be able to do that sans statistically sound polling though.

Well, "you can't say that without having done the polls" sounds like a surefire candidate to render a discussion board obsolete, really.

It was a theory of mine, and i think it's sound. But(t. heh.) let's not derail the thread with Rey discussions

 

[Basketball]

thats from a CG trailer right? that looks really good

I think it's a cutscene but they made the Classic outfit available to use for her character

looks great in game

 

[Memorabilia]

You do realize that few guys wear tight pants because few guys have anything resembling an idea of fashion. Baggy-ass jeans that show off nothing aren't appealing to basically anyone. Overall that's a really daft point to make because it's really just emphasizing the idea that women are encouraged to care about their looks while men aren't. :')


I mean, if you genuinely feel like mansplaining is a necessary evil maybe you should take a step back and figure out why you need to take an authoritative tone that diminishes anything the other person might have to say. It's counterproductive and doesn't serve any purpose, really. If you don't agree and you find it totally off-base--oftentimes it's probably a better idea to just not say anything at all? Maybe that's just me.

Normally I'd 100% agree. But given the tight-knit nature of GAF and the off-base assumptions she was making, it felt "personal" and wildly offensive to the kind of person I really am. So, its kind of that funny situation where part of me figures "eh, let it go
..its just a silly online miscommunication". But the stronger part of me doesn't like the idea of someone else projecting their problems with men in general onto me, which is exactly what was happening. I would have preferred to have a constructive discussion, but it was impossible to move forward when the same BS kept being repeated.

At any rate, I like your point about fashion in that it basically dovetails into my general point I originally made about "yoga pants".... Edit: There aren't exactly too many similar options for, say, "men's leggings"...which opens up the much wider discussion about whether or not a majority of society would actually appreciate/admire/welcome more sexualized male clothing...or be repulsed by it...and why?

 

[dark10x]

thats from a CG trailer right? that looks really good

That's real-time. Arkham Knight in general looks insanely good.

 

[Fliesen]

i don't know in what universe skintight bodysuits aren't sexualized other than the one where people feel the need to prove a point

like poison ivy and catwoman, harley has been sexualized since her inception. It's just a problem with her character in general.

eh, i don't think this is particularly sexualized.

It doesn't 'hide' the female physique, but it doesn't go out of its way to emphasise it.

 

[aeolist]

i don't know in what universe skintight bodysuits aren't sexualized other than the one where people feel the need to prove a point

like poison ivy and catwoman, harley has been sexualized since her inception. It's just a problem with her character in general.

well to me there's skintight bodysuits

and then there's skintight bodysuits

the difference seems pretty clear to me

 

[Grover]

That's real-time. Arkham Knight in general looks insanely good.

holy crap, i gotta get that costume!!

 

[Pai Pai Master]

thats from a CG trailer right? that looks really good

The game just looks fucking awesome