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[Rickenslacker]

Mulling it around in my head a bit I think CCs would work better if they were exclusively tied to sweeps. The system is jank as-is which is pretty clear, but with sweeps I think it hits its intentions as they've been made risky and very punishable in SFV. So the CC would secure you the guaranteed hard knockdown in this case but isn't just a move you'll throw out in neutral and get random big conversions off of.

 

[Rice-Eater]

Man their was basically another Woshige moment in this the Korean stream lol. Their is this female player named Panda Sooa, she won a couple matches on stream earlier but her next match was against NL(really good Ryu player who now mains Cammy). And she was doing really good, she won the first game and had game point in the 2nd. Problem is that she didn't realize that their was another round left and wasted her critical art to win round 2 after scoring a 1 hit stun with probably 15% health left for NL's Cammy.

She went on to lose the final round of game 2 and then game 3(although it was close). Maybe that doesn't change anything but going from full bars to none really hurts.

 

[Kashiwaba]

Mulling it around in my head a bit I think CCs would work better if they were exclusively tied to sweeps. The system is jank as-is which is pretty clear, but with sweeps I think it hits its intentions as they've been made risky and very punishable in SFV. So the CC would secure you the guaranteed hard knockdown in this case but isn't just a move you'll throw out in neutral and get random big conversions off of.

I don't see why everyone hates the CC mechanic it seems like it's doing what's intended to be, if you want to do big damage using fierce or steal your opponent turn on wake up and fail, you pay the price , it's a big risk but if it works the reward is big.

 

[Shadoken]

Eita is a god , sad to see him out

 

[lucebuce12]

I don't see why everyone hates the CC mechanic it seems like it's doing what's intended to be, if you want to do big damage using fierce or steal your opponent turn on wake up and fail, you pay the price , it's a big risk but if it works the reward is big.

The risk is just non-existent compared to the reward.

If characters had more consistent defensive options then this offensive play would be easier to deal with in my opinion.

 

[Kashiwaba]

The risk is just non-existent compared to the reward.

If characters had more consistent defensive options then this offensive play would be easier to deal with in my opinion.

Could you explain please? You mean you mean there is no risk to who?

 

[lucebuce12]

Could you explain please? You mean you mean there is no risk to who?

To the person who did the CC.

If I do a st.hk with Balrog then there are 4 possibilities (assuming there is no wakeup reversal)

(i) It gets blocked. I'm +3 afterwards and can try to throw, do another normal which can frametrap even 3-framers or shimmy

(ii)If it hits, I confirm into a combo,do damage and get you further to the corner, assuming you're not already there and repeat.

(iii)If it's a CC, I do around 30% of your lifebar without meter, more so if I use meter as well as free corner carry. I also get half a bar of V-meter from that.

(iv)It gets blocked and the opponent does a V-reversal. The tide has turned but not really as the opponent will just do something similar on my wakeup. That's assuming the V-reversal actually lands since some are so slow that I might be able to block it.

Similar situation with a lot of buttons. They might be minus though, which does alleviate the problem of (i) but (ii),(iii) and (iv) are still an issue for a lot of buttons. Then you tie that into the entire V-system where some characters can do next to nothing for half a round but can get so much out of one jump in or one CC once they have V-Trigger that's equal to what you just achieved by playing solid for 50 seconds without suffering a hit.

Everything about this game prioritizes and rewards consistent unwavering offense. It truly doesn't matter if I play defensive, if I play footsies successfully since that all changes once a lot of characters get V-Trigger.

This is why Bonchan's hit and run style doing so well with Nash keeps blowing my mind. He's literally outplaying his opponent 99% of the time. I shudder to think what would happen if the character still had a moveset that encouraged a hit-and-run style of play.

 

[Xeteh]

if anyone wants to join in on the stupid story of a guy that sucks at street fighter:

https://www.twitch.tv/xeteh

 

[Kashiwaba]

To the person who did the CC.

If I do a st.hk with Balrog then there are 4 possibilities (assuming there is no wakeup reversal)

(i) It gets blocked. I'm +3 afterwards and can try to throw, do another normal which can frametrap even 3-framers or shimmy

(ii)If it hits, I confirm into a combo,do damage and get you further to the corner, assuming you're not already there and repeat.

(iii)If it's a CC, I do around 30% of your lifebar without meter, more so if I use meter as well as free corner carry. I also get half a bar of V-meter from that.

(iv)It gets blocked and the opponent does a V-reversal. The tide has turned but not really as the opponent will just do something similar on my wakeup. That's assuming the V-reversal actually lands since some are so slow that I might be able to block it.

Similar situation with a lot of buttons. They might be minus though, which does alleviate the problem of (i) but (ii),(iii) and (iv) are still an issue for a lot of buttons. Then you tie that into the entire V-system where some characters can do next to nothing for half a round but can get so much out of one jump in or one CC once they have V-Trigger that's equal to what you just achieved by playing solid for 50 seconds without suffering a hit.

Everything about this game prioritizes and rewards consistent unwavering offense. It truly doesn't matter if I play defensive, if I play footsies successfully since that all changes once a lot of characters get V-Trigger.

This is why Bonchan's hit and run style doing so well with Nash keeps blowing my mind. He's literally outplaying his opponent 99% of the time. I shudder to think what would happen if the character still had a moveset that encouraged a hit-and-run style of play.

I see that makes since, but doesn't CC occur usually after the other player fails to land a fierce attack or DP?

 

[Rickenslacker]

Could you explain please? You mean you mean there is no risk to who?

To the person using the CC move. They can just kind of be thrown out there with big gains and relatively low risk. I mean it's fine for capitalizing off blocked reversals (though there's an argument to be made that with the universal meter requirement now it's kind of unnecessary) but let me give you a real world footsies example.

Urien vs Karin

You two are doin' your shuffles, and then both decide to throw out a limb. Urien tosses out st.HP, and Karin tried a st.MK a few frames later. Urien gets the counter-hit on the st.MK and a CC as a result, dashes up, uses a launcher, does tackle, then super.

Now let's assume the roles were reversed and Karin managed to get the st.MK off first. She hits him but gets a poke that goes nowhere.

Now let's assume that Karin didn't throw out a move then, Urien's st.HP whiffs and maybe you're gonna be able to do a whiff punish but it's not gonna be the likes of a CC combo.

What if he was close enough and you blocked his st.HP? Well, it's -2, so at worst he's just lost his turn.

The odds here are incredibly stacked towards the CC here.

I see that makes since, but doesn't CC occur usually after the other player fails to land a fierce attack or DP?

CCs occur when a CC move lands as a counter-hit or as a punishment to certain reversals.

 

[lucebuce12]

I see that makes since, but doesn't CC occur usually after the other player fails to land a fierce attack or DP?

CCs happen as a suped-up version of counter hit.

So if your button lands on the startup of their attack, it'll cause a CC unless that attack was invincible like EX DP, CA etc etc.

You're also in a counter-hit state during the recovery on a regular DP or an EX DP or a parry/counter (Except Alex's V-Trigger)

 

[Kashiwaba]

To the person using the CC move. They can just kind of be thrown out there with big gains and relatively low risk. I mean it's fine for capitalizing off blocked reversals (though there's an argument to be made that with the universal meter requirement now it's kind of unnecessary) but let me give you a real world footsies example.

Urien vs Karin

You two are doin' your shuffles, and then both decide to throw out a limb. Urien tosses out st.HP, and Karin tried a st.MK a few frames later. Urien gets the counter-hit on the st.MK and a CC as a result, dashes up, uses a launcher, does tackle, then super.

Now let's assume the roles were reversed and Karin managed to get the st.MK off first. She hits him but gets a poke that goes nowhere.

Now let's assume that Karin didn't throw out a move then, Urien's st.HP whiffs and maybe you're gonna be able to do a whiff punish but it's not gonna be the likes of a CC combo.

What if he was close enough and you blocked his st.HP? Well, it's -2, so at worst he's just lost his turn.

The odds here are incredibly stacked towards the CC here.

CCs occur when a CC move lands as a counter-hit or as a punishment to certain reversals.

CCs happen as a suped-up version of counter hit.

So if your button lands on the startup of their attack, it'll cause a CC unless that attack was invincible like EX DP, CA etc etc.

You're also in a counter-hit state during the recovery on a regular DP or an EX DP or a parry/counter (Except Alex's V-Trigger)

Oh i see thanks guys now things are now clearer for me. I always thought CC happens only after you opponent fails to land a DP or heavy attack, lol and i have been playing the game for over a year now,

 

[lupinko]

I try not to buy toys anymore but I put a reservation down this summer for SHFiguarts Cammy. I have to look for Chunners who should be out in a few days with Ryu.

 

[Village]

My steam wallet is now ready for those costumes

 

[lucebuce12]

Execution error? Nah dawg, MIXUP

 

[Village]

Execution error? Nah dawg, MIXUP

I call those moments " you know what? Sure" moments

 

[Ucchedavāda]

In other news, Balrog can do 1107 damage in one combo without stunning you (TAP, light DP > V-trigger, TAP > rekka > CA):
https://twitter.com/TOOLASSlSTED/status/854662222462767105


The most interesting part, to me, was the fact that you can charge multiple TAPs at the same time. I was not aware of that.

 

[lucebuce12]

 

[killu4what]

Anybody want to play?

 

[MrCarter]

In other news, Balrog can do 1107 damage in one combo without stunning you (TAP, light DP > V-trigger, TAP > rekka > CA):
https://twitter.com/TOOLASSlSTED/status/854662222462767105


The most interesting part, to me, was the fact that you can charge multiple TAPs at the same time. I was not aware of that.

It's ridiculous but there is no way someone would be able to do that in a real match. That being said, Balrog needs some scaling asap.

 

[lucebuce12]

It's ridiculous but there is no way someone would be able to do that in a real match.

Sure Jan. Granted it's not as bad as the one in that TOOLASSISTED video but Jesus Christ, this character.

 

[MrCarter]

Sure Jan. Granted it's not as bad as the one in that TOOLASSISTED video but Jesus Christ, this character.

Hmm yeah fuck Balrog.

Also nice avatar. I want that Rashid one but I like Red Earth's Kenji too much.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Don't really agree with CCs being "broken".
The vast majority of characters don't have CCs that are +3 on block (or + at all).
From the top of my head it's alex, mika, bison, balrog and akuma.
And a lot of characters can't even combo after their CC button hits unless they were very close or cancel it with VT.

If you think balrog is busted that's fine, but that far from confirms that CCs in general are busted.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

CC system is awesome. Just adjust the ones that need it.

 

[Neoxon]

I now have enough Fight Money to where I won't go under 100k after I get the Thailand stage.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

Yeah, I like the CC system as well, but there are a few buttons that needs to be tuned down a notch, Balrog's stHK being a prime example.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Don't really agree with CCs being "broken".
The vast majority of characters don't have CCs that are +3 on block (or + at all).
From the top of my head it's alex, mika, bison, balrog and akuma.
And a lot of characters can't even combo after their CC button hits unless they were very close or cancel it with VT.

If you think balrog is busted that's fine, but that far from confirms that CCs in general are busted.

They don't need to be + OB to seem skewed in the favour of the CC button, even in the Urien example I listed it's a matter of him being -2 afterwards and, so what? The payoff is much better than the risk of which there is very little. A lot of characters can capitalize big time off of a sudden CC in neutral, and that's what I find disagreeable with it currently.

 

[ColonialHawk]

So it's really the priority system people have a problem with then.

 

[Skilletor]

Don't really agree with CCs being "broken".
The vast majority of characters don't have CCs that are +3 on block (or + at all).
From the top of my head it's alex, mika, bison, balrog and akuma.
And a lot of characters can't even combo after their CC button hits unless they were very close or cancel it with VT.

If you think balrog is busted that's fine, but that far from confirms that CCs in general are busted.

CCs are attached to buttons that would be useful outside of their utility as CCs. That's the stupid part. They're buttons you press anyway. The way the priority system works in this game means there's really no reason not to be pressing these buttons all the time. They don't reward smart play. The risk/reward for these buttons is fucking stupid.

 

[Neoxon]

So it's really the priority system people have a problem with then.

Isn't the priority system the same as it is in SFIII?

 

[Skilletor]

Isn't the priority system the same as it is in SFIII?

SF3 had defense. You couldn't just spam the same button over and over from a safe distance.

Unless you were Chun lololol.

 

[Zombegoast]

So it's really the priority system people have a problem with then.

it's not really the priority system for Balrog like his St.LK, it's just his St.HK is +3 OB.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

The priority system doesn't mean you can just throw out these buttons and automatically win. Y'all acting like startup frames don't exist, the priority system only comes into play if an attack were to trade; urien being -2 after sthp means if he does it again it would take 14f, it's not "free".

 

[Skilletor]

The priority system doesn't mean you can just throw out these buttons and automatically win. Y'all acting like startup frames don't exist, the priority system only comes into play if an attack were to trade; urien being -2 after sthp means if he does it again it would take 14f, it's not "free".

Nobody said "automatically win." Urien being -2 on s.hp doesn't matter much from the ranges he's doing it. Same with tons of CC buttons.

 

[Rickenslacker]

CCs are attached to buttons that would be useful outside of their utility as CCs. That's the stupid part. They're buttons you press anyway. The way the priority system works in this game means there's really no reason not to be pressing these buttons all the time. They don't reward smart play. The risk/reward for these buttons is fucking stupid.

This is why I think they're perfect on sweeps, but pretty silly elsewhere. Sweeps are risky in general, and so you get your normal one off and you're gonna apply your mix-up pressure and try and gauge how they're gonna wake up. Get a CC sweep off and you can get your guaranteed setup. I think it strikes a good balance there, and with the change to reversals in S2 I think the need for CCs as a punish has been an outdated notion -- you get your free combo and they waste meter, I think that's enough without landsliding things.

 

[Skilletor]

This is why I think they're perfect on sweeps, but pretty silly elsewhere. Sweeps are risky in general, and so you get your normal one off and you're gonna apply your mix-up pressure and try and gauge how they're gonna wake up. Get a CC sweep off and you can get your guaranteed setup. I think it strikes a good balance there, and with the change to reversals in S2 I think the need for CCs as a punish has been an outdated notion -- you get your free combo and they waste meter, I think that's enough without landsliding things.

I agree 100%.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Nobody said "automatically win." Urien being -2 on s.hp doesn't matter much from the ranges he's doing it. Same with tons of CC buttons.

You just literally said:

The way the priority system works in this game means there's really no reason not to be pressing these buttons all the time.

 

[Skilletor]

You just literally said:

K.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

K.

Glad you agree

 

[killu4what]

Is anybody else getting kicked from matches?

 

[ColonialHawk]

So then it's safe buttons that have CC properties.

 

[lucebuce12]

My problem with the CC system is that those buttons that are safe and allow followups, there's literally no reason NOT to throw them out there if you can.

They give you V-meter, increased combo opportunity for much bigger damage and for most of them, a positional advantage after that combo. They should give you AT BEST 2 of those 3.

How is it fair that Balrog can do a st.hk that leads to a cr.hp xx heavy upper xx light dash punch, got all that damage and corner carry, did all that stun and on top of that, got V-meter as well which brings him closer to that explosive V-Trigger? He should have to choose between V-meter or damage/stun/corner carry, certainly not have the best of both worlds. And he most certainly should NOT be +3 oB when he does that.

Same situation with Mika tbh. At least Alex's Lariat has the disadvantage of not hitting crouching opponents at certain ranges, and that sometimes any follow up to that move can be backdashed. Mika's f+hp has no risk to it. It's +3 oB, with a character that has a command grab, and a 3-frame jab.

With Urien, the problem is clearly that he gets WAY too easy damage with that st.hp CC. He should only get a cr.hp xx shenanigans setup from that if he has the opponent in the corner.

They have a good middleground with characters like Karin, Cammy and Birdie.

Birdie has 2 CC buttons. One has armor, and is WILDLY unsafe. The other is 0 oB, has decently high startup and is ALWAYS v-reversable since the recovery is so high.

Karin's st.hk is -4 oB and the follow up to it is only a v-skill (unless you confirm it into V-Trigger). She doesn't get much damage, but she gets v-meter and positioning.

Cammy's CC button is st.hk, and be honest, when was the last time you saw anyone use that button to try and fish out CCs at any level?

They've already implemented CC buttons which work perfectly well for the character but then they have a few too many CC buttons which have again, all the reward and NO risk. And then they have CC buttons which have some risk but very minimal reward outside of confirming into V-Trigger.

 

[Skilletor]

So then it's safe buttons that have CC properties.

Yes. Trying to get. Cc should be a choice, not a byproduct of your amazing, high reward/low risk buttons.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

So the problem is Rog, not the system.

 

[Gunslinger]

So the problem is Rog, not the system.

I mean Capcom needed a way to implement xfactor in SF.

 

[ColonialHawk]

Yes. Trying to get. Cc should be a choice, not a byproduct of your amazing, high reward/low risk buttons.

So then the question is: how do you make CCs a choice?

Or when should CCs work?

 

[lucebuce12]

Or when should CCs work?

While you didn't ask me directly, I'm gonna answer the question anyway.

Make it so that CCs give you a positioning advantage, or a damage followup. But NOT BOTH.

Just a few examples:

• I'd make Laura's st.hk CC combo into a LIGHT dash punch, NOT a medium punch. She gets damage, meter and positioning which is more than what she deserves but oh well.
  
• I'd make Balrog's st.hk at BEST +1 oB, increase the recovery by 3 frames. Also, increased pushback so that the cr.hp xx stuff is only possible if you're in the corner. Else, you can only get a light/EX dash punch as a follow up, or you try to move into a better position.
  
• Same for Urien, st.hp CC only leads to cr.hp xx shenanigans if you're in the corner. Else the pushback means you can only get a dash into st.mk at best, or just do a V-skill to leave you in a better position for what follows next.
  
• Mika's f.HP does not need to be a CC, me thinks. Her st.hp should cover the same role.
  
• Ken's is fine, it's the effectiveness of the V-skill that I'd do something about oh well.
  
• Necalli's overhead does not need to be a CC IMO. He already has fantastic ways to build V-meter with his st.hk and most importantly his V-skill.
  
• Chun-Li is fine. It's other tools that need to be made better but her V-system usage (or lack of it tbh) is fine IMO.
  
• Dhalsim is also good tbh.
  
• Guile is also pretty good. I'd personally not make the b+hp a CC but that's a me thing.
  
• Rashid is also in a good spot.
  
• Ryu's CC buttons need work and I'm honestly at a loss at what I'd do for them.
  
• Vega's is a bit of a mystery to me.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Mika being +3 is fine imo, it barely has any range and pushes out far enough that on block only ex typhoon hits, which means she has to try to get in again.

 

[Skilletor]

So then the question is: how do you make CCs a choice?

Or when should CCs work?

Make them have risk and reward, not just reward. Then you have to make a choice.

I think CCs should ONLY be command normals, not regular ass buttons.

 

[Zombegoast]

So the problem is Rog, not the system.

Pretty much.

Meanwhile Tekken 7