EatinOlives
Member
I hope you don't think you're the first to make this fallacy.
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Supporting abusive work environments - Why I wont be buying Red Dead 2
- Thread starter Raging Spaniard
- Start date
I hope you don't think you're the first to make this fallacy.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
To my understanding ME:A's dev time was around 5 years?
Well, is it not a secret that the consoles and the devices we play our games on are made possible with people working in abusive working conditions? If you support not buying a video game out of a moral standing based on the disgust towards abusive working conditions, shouldn't the ideal recourse would be not to buy our gaming devices as well? Why are we disgusted with one thing and not the other? Why are we not okay with Rockstar abusing its workforce while at the same breath we also continue to buy our PS4s, Xboxes, Switches, and so on and so forth?
After all, you really can't argue that video games are actually a necessary evil in the same way that you can might make argument like that for, say, mobile phones.
Lord of Castamere
Member
It sucks, hopefully it gets better in the future, or people just stop working there, but I'm not going to skip out on what might be the best game of the generation, and only wild west game on next gen, because of it. More power to people that do.
Caipirinha
Member
Welcome to capitalism and welcome to non-unionised industries.
Fucking appalling and every single member of management right up to the board of directors and the creative directors should all be ashamed of themselves.
In a just world, poor working conditions leading to physical decline and mental health/social problems (not just "injuries") should be criminal offences and every single fat cat reaping the profits from the labour of these hard working devs should be locked away. Worthless parasites.
Fucking appalling and every single member of management right up to the board of directors and the creative directors should all be ashamed of themselves.
In a just world, poor working conditions leading to physical decline and mental health/social problems (not just "injuries") should be criminal offences and every single fat cat reaping the profits from the labour of these hard working devs should be locked away. Worthless parasites.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
I keep seeing these comments saying how the staff is being well paid. You should prove that because a number of the issues are based on NOT being paid a regular or high wage, especially for the product theyre creating.
Like I said earlier in the thread. Regular crunching is one thing, working hard is another thing but what is described in the OP is on another level.
The whole "if you dont like it quit" crowd, you have to realize that its not that easy, some people depend on these jobs are are being beaten mentally and physically (due to the long hours and illnesses) so you are not in your best frame of mind to stand up for yourself or take another job.
Yet in another breath people will be shit posting about Companies that don't take this attitude to their employees and therefore take longer to get a game out.
You have one or the other, you can't have both.
It's like the industry I work in, you either sweat the resources you have at 100% capacity for 90% of the year get a reputation for running a virtual labour camp and have a high churn, they then break over the November December peak period and you spend millions on recovering service. The pay off being you can offer a cheap as chips service to your customers and generate numbers into the hundreds of millions ever year.
OR you run your assets at 80% capacity, charge a little more to make you money, have way fewer customers but practically no employee churn, your existing assets pick up the slack during peak but the down side is you generate number s in the tens of millions and not the hundreds.
You either wait or someway pays to speed it up, whether it's financially or physically.
You have one or the other, you can't have both.
It's like the industry I work in, you either sweat the resources you have at 100% capacity for 90% of the year get a reputation for running a virtual labour camp and have a high churn, they then break over the November December peak period and you spend millions on recovering service. The pay off being you can offer a cheap as chips service to your customers and generate numbers into the hundreds of millions ever year.
OR you run your assets at 80% capacity, charge a little more to make you money, have way fewer customers but practically no employee churn, your existing assets pick up the slack during peak but the down side is you generate number s in the tens of millions and not the hundreds.
You either wait or someway pays to speed it up, whether it's financially or physically.
The3DGameArtist
Member
Not every studio is like this obviously, but change does need to happen on a studio level to some extent but most of all it needs to happen on a government level by laws & unions. If the whole studio threw up their hands and rioted, things might change as well?
Oh well, on the flip-side, people have been working really hard on the game, I don't support crunch-culture but I still actually want these devs to do well and get paid but most of all show my appreciation for all their hard-work. So I will buy the game for sure.
Oh well, on the flip-side, people have been working really hard on the game, I don't support crunch-culture but I still actually want these devs to do well and get paid but most of all show my appreciation for all their hard-work. So I will buy the game for sure.
show me your skeleton
Member
doing something about one thing is better than nothing about everything.
you could use your logic about almost every aspect of modern society, that doesn't detract from the small positive steps people can choose to make about one or many issues that affect others.
HoodWinked
Member
its really tough to make really complex games with alot of interlocking systems that depend on each other. cant really develop games in a way where you completely eliminate development bottlenecks having to wait on builds or some particular thing to work on some other part.
i remember major group projects in college we would always stress near the end even though we'd meet regularly. it wasn't till we got closer to the deadline everyone goes into overdrive and things start clicking.
videogame development is so much more different than other industries and rockstar games in particular are so technically complex and challenging that i couldn't imagine many studios feasibly making the kind of games that they make.
i remember major group projects in college we would always stress near the end even though we'd meet regularly. it wasn't till we got closer to the deadline everyone goes into overdrive and things start clicking.
videogame development is so much more different than other industries and rockstar games in particular are so technically complex and challenging that i couldn't imagine many studios feasibly making the kind of games that they make.
Considering R* make money hand over fist with every release and have a sterling reputation amongst critics and the buying public, I don't see the working conditions changing any time soon.
And R* have been infamous for shitty work conditions for ages now from what we know.
Quite sad there's nothing that can be done to make the talented devs there better off.
And R* have been infamous for shitty work conditions for ages now from what we know.
Quite sad there's nothing that can be done to make the talented devs there better off.
Stealthcobra
Member
You think that indie devs life is any different? I'd wager its even worse... Working 12 to 16 hr days, to get your dream fulfilled.. No ot.. Barely making ends meet, but working your fingers to the bone. Game development is hard work.. You know what you're getting yourself into when you pick that career. I went to Digipen... I'd be at school by 8am and wouldn't leave till 10pm...8 to 6 on Saturdays... For 2 yrs str8. (96 to 98) if you're thinking other game companies are 8 to 5..you're kidding yourselves.
neurosisxeno
Member
I'll still buy it, and I won't really feel bad about it. As cruel as it may seem, the people who work there choose to do so, and as long as there are people willing to do so complacently rather than forming unions and fighting unfair practices, it's going to continue. At this point there's no real bait and switch going on, people know of "crunch time" in the Game Development Industry, and I imagine anyone who went to college is used to dealing with tight deadlines. It sucks, but to get higher up and make a name for yourself you need to work these shitting jobs in a lot of industries.
As someone posted early on in this topic, if people just wanted to make a living they would switch out of gaming and make boring software. It's an industry with much better work practices, much better pay structures, and is basically recession and economic downturn-proof.
As someone posted early on in this topic, if people just wanted to make a living they would switch out of gaming and make boring software. It's an industry with much better work practices, much better pay structures, and is basically recession and economic downturn-proof.
toddhunter
Member
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 on PC is one of the worst games of all time. It only has a 4.2 user score on metacritic.
This is one of the reasons why ill still buy the game, but anyone is free to pick their battles and i think its fair as long as they dont get on the high horse and have some self awareness.
Otherwise nothing really matters because theres always that one other thing youre ignoring,
R* being a shitty abusive company isnt news, unforrunately.
thebisonxrc
Member
The game development industry should unionize.
I agree but thats hypocrite choosing one thing alone, it's just cognitive dissonance at its finest.
Sad Affleck
Member
The battle for improving working conditions within the games industry can't be fought by consumers. Change has to come from within, through unionizing and developers themselves pushing for it.
Unless you think of yourself as better than everyone else for it, no its not.
Just because you cant do everything, doesnt mean you should do nothing.
Ovek
7Member7
I meant the last year of development when EA found that they didn't really have a game
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Quite baffling to hear such a thing and then have such a high quality product come out of it.
Rellik
Member
Is it? 5 year old Chinese kids are spitting out high quality products as well. You're probably wearing them on your feet.
Part of the issue is that it doesn't need to be like this to get such a high quality product.
I think (hope?) its no secret that software/game devolpment is not like the best working environment in the world.
However a) i find the "evidence" to pointing at a specific company in this case flimsy at best
b) when i thin about abusive work environments game devolpment is weeeeeeeeell down at my list
However a) i find the "evidence" to pointing at a specific company in this case flimsy at best
b) when i thin about abusive work environments game devolpment is weeeeeeeeell down at my list
For those you "enlightened" folk that keep saying the same fucking stupid "OH YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT CHINESE SWEATSHOPS LOL YOU'RE SO STUPID I SURE SHOWED THEM", do you do that for EVERYTHING?
Are you gonna hear that someone donated to a charity for kids in africa and walk up to them with a smug grin going "OH YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT STARVING KIDS IN THE MIDDLE EAST? OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD? YOU'RE SO STUPID LOL WHY ARE YOU DONATING NOTHING IS GONNA MATTER ANYWAYS"
I mean it's bad enough that your shitty point has NOTHING to do with what OP wants to talk about and you're only using it to deflect criticism in the laziest possible way, but regardless I'm just letting you know how stupid your points are.
Are you gonna hear that someone donated to a charity for kids in africa and walk up to them with a smug grin going "OH YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT STARVING KIDS IN THE MIDDLE EAST? OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD? YOU'RE SO STUPID LOL WHY ARE YOU DONATING NOTHING IS GONNA MATTER ANYWAYS"
I mean it's bad enough that your shitty point has NOTHING to do with what OP wants to talk about and you're only using it to deflect criticism in the laziest possible way, but regardless I'm just letting you know how stupid your points are.
I've read somewhere that working on the gaming industry was stressful, but never thought they violated workers' rights. It's horrible to think that to get a great game, many people are killing themselves developing it. And apparently, even if a game is a huge success, that won't make the conditions to improve.
Wasn't there a similar problem with Naughty Dog? At least the writer of the Uncharted series, who left the company not long ago, had to work for about 10 hours every day, weekends included.
This industry sucks in all ways.
Wasn't there a similar problem with Naughty Dog? At least the writer of the Uncharted series, who left the company not long ago, had to work for about 10 hours every day, weekends included.
This industry sucks in all ways.
kqedequalsvolvo
Member
Yeah you're right, if you can't be 100% ideologically pure in terms of doing absolutely anything in a modern late capitalist society then there's no point in doing anything ever...right?
Seriously though, I'm as sceptical about ethical consumerism as the next person but knocking someone for trying to make a positive contribution to affect a change doesn't really add anything positive. It's like having a go at somebody for rescuing a dog from a speeding car and screaming at them about what they are or aren't doing about the animals displaced from Amazonian deforestation.
NinjaBoiX
Member
I just don't see how it's up to us as the end consumer to do something about it. And this answer is ridiculous.
"Some people have a shit job, but because they don't have the common sense to do something about it, we should refuse to buy their product, effectively forcing them out of a job."
Um, well...done?
"Some people have a shit job, but because they don't have the common sense to do something about it, we should refuse to buy their product, effectively forcing them out of a job."
Um, well...done?
Chainsawkitten
Member
As you say, Ubisoft consists of many different studios all over the world. Ubisoft Massive at the very least seems to be taking steps to improve and reduce crunch and treat their employees fairly. But it might be very different at other studios.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
This is an American job, if I worked somewhere with shit job conditions, I would look somewhere else, these are grown adults, not some Chinese sweatshop. These are adults who presumably have degrees and are masters of their craft. I'm not gonna fight the war for you. If I get a job at UPS, I expect to get run into the ground, not gonna claim innocent like I didn't know what the warehouse industry was aboot.
half a moon
Banned
Stop with bad analogies. No one has the money to donate to multiple charaities or the means to help animals in other countries compared to saving a dog infront of them.
If your grand stand against horrible working conditions is not buying a product you're absolutely a hypocrite for cherry picking who you do this with.
Chainsawkitten
Member
And as we all know, it's better to not give a fuck and do nothing to improve the world than to *gasp* be a hypocrite.
Bboy AJ
My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
Why
NinjaBoiX
Member
Basically, yeah.
Let's not act like they're poor, exploited individuals without a choice. They willingly accept the job and apparently do very little else to help themselves but complain about it on the internet. More fool them.
boneyjangles
Member
Same story I've heard about just about all video game development since the 1980's.
Alternatively, when you have fantastic working conditions, steady cash-flow, a relaxed atmosphere, and no time pressure, we get to enjoy stuff like Half Life 3.
Alternatively, when you have fantastic working conditions, steady cash-flow, a relaxed atmosphere, and no time pressure, we get to enjoy stuff like Half Life 3.
half a moon
Banned
Great point.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Victim blaming is always a good strategy!
They don't have any real recourse. R* might be one of the worst but most companies are pretty bad in this respect if you are taking about devs with teams in the hundreds. I'm very lucky to now work directly under veteran creators who didn't just fall into an exec/manager job and dealt with nightmare conditions when they were younger, so they avoid pushing everyone too hard. They still ask a lot out of us but it's within reasonable bounds.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
I'd rather silence than listen to a hypocrit on a high horse. Would you listen to a man who got beat for black civil rights but vehemently goes against the LGBT community? Why stop at R*? Or are we only going to do R*
You said it yourself, no one can do everything. But by what people in this thread are saying, since we can't do that, it means we should just do nothing and be selfish pricks because the world is shitty and we should just never try to do anything about bad things.
Also it's not about "cherry picking", it's about OP wanting to do something for THIS specifc isuse. OP said himself he KNOWS there are other problems in the world and he wants to do something for THIS and THIS alone at the MOMENT. That's not to say he's going after poor old Rockstar jsut because he's a jerk or a "hypocrite"
Also also! OP is doing SOMETHING, that's better than NOTHING. The fact that you apparently need him to do some grand crusade to change everything single handledly, because you think him not buying the game isn't "good enough" and makes him a "hypocrite" is a load of shit. No one has to prove shit to you, OP is doing what he thinks will work even if he knows it's a small thing in the grand scale. Like I said, SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING.
Remember, you're the one who said people can't donate multiple chartities all the time. OP can't stop everything in his life to make some grand crusade against Rockstar so he's doing what he can with his situation.
I get what you're saying and its true. But it seems like a weird place to start. Also boycotting AAA games is the last thing people should be doing in times of mobile games and quick cash f2p games.
Little Monser
Banned
????
I dunno man. You think you "noticed something obvious", but it reality, you've made a bunch of assumptions about me without any evidence whatsoever.
Going back to my first post:
I NEVER, sought to put anyone one down. I even suggested that people should stand up for this cause. I just think it would be more effective if such a stand would involve more that a refusal to support a single dev and that it's worth looking at what it takes to bring gaming entertainment to our home from both the software and hardware side of things.
The one post where I did put down the OP, I reread it, and apologized to him. I was actually returning snark to another poster, and threw him in the mix out of a bit of anger.
Regarding my actions- I've posted similar industry related issues in this very thread... and in other threads and on other sites and social media. raising awareness similarly to the OP. I also regularly push my elected officials to enact transparency laws that force manufactures to know and reveal their sources. I also, financially support unionization initiatives and work in a union environment myself- and the unions I'm involved with regular push for unionization in other industries.
Lastly, I'm not sure what not being a US citizen has to do with anything. The gaming industry is a global market. If true mineral source transparancy was enforced in a single market and company officials faced jail time for evading it, then we'd immediately be able to start stamping out the warmongering and mineral slave labor.
Lastly #2, I have no interest in being better than anyone. I AM interested in spreading awareness about the labor practices our $ endorses. I'm simply pointing additional ways we as gaming enthusiasts finacially support even worse working conditions in hopes that awareness will spark additional action.
Edit: catching up on the thread. Wow man just wow. Backing down from what?
Wow, it's not often that you see the "appeal to bigger issues fallacy" stated literally as "there are bigger issues".
Also, this backing down means that you're not going to tell us what you actually do against any of these issues, are you? I mean, it's not like you've been asked several times and managed to reply to everything but that.
Time to bail again. I can't keep up with all these stupid posters. Gotta wait until some common sense people come back with some great posts like they did earlier. For now you keep posting the same shitty driveby "Oh this is just how things work" and "Oh but what about yadadada" and pat yourselves on the back for thinking you've made some brilliant original point!
This thread makes nice proof that NeoGAF is full of just as many morons as any other gaming forum. We're no different to GameFAQs or /v/
This thread makes nice proof that NeoGAF is full of just as many morons as any other gaming forum. We're no different to GameFAQs or /v/
I worked in the car industry during my student times and it was one of the best jobs I had. Good pay, everything very well organized, almost no overtime (and if you had to work overtime, it was very well compensated), above-average vacation days. I actually buy cars from that manufacturer because I know how they are managing things.
And as already mentioned, this kind of whataboutism is pure bullshit. Sure we all have passions for certain things and would buy them even if we knew there is a lot of greed behind them. But at least we can limit the amount of cash throw towards a certain company. I'd for example never buy something from Apple or Samsung just to name some, because there is enough evidence for their inhuman working conditions.
Getting older I realized that I can pass on a lot of things, even though I can afford them now. OP is quite persuasive imo, and I won't support R* games I did in the past anymore.
Royce McCutcheon
Junior Member
If you think not buying Red Dead is actually going to help these developers, I got some news for you.
They'll lose their jobs