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Supporting abusive work environments - Why I wont be buying Red Dead 2
- Thread starter Raging Spaniard
- Start date
Sora the Cat
Member
Yup, same here.
recursive
Member
Unfortunately this ideology extends across many industries. For example the auto industry faces crunch time year round.
Booker.DeWitt
Member
Day one for me
So, you still want to consume the media that these developers had to go through exhausting crunch times to produce but you don't want to pay for it.
Either stand up for your principles and boycott it completely or pay for the game that these people worked hard to create.
Darklor01
Might need to stop sniffing glue
Sad to say I feel I'd only be punishing myself not getting the game. People say vote with their wallet and while I'd agree, I don't think it would make a dent in how much this game will sell. Same thing with the tons of moaning and groaning I read about not supporting DLC if I don't like it. I don't support it and generally don't buy it, yet, DLC is still everywhere.
I'm in one day one.
I'm in one day one.
Papo Swing
Member
First, Glassdoor is legit. Of course there may be some disgruntled employees, but if so many reviews are negative you have to believe it is true.
It is very sad to hear about that, it always is. I've worked/work in software and having a bad work environment is just toxic and good for no one in the long run. I guess the few execs get richer in their own term but everything else might be shit.
But I got to own up to it because I will most likely buy the game
. I don't think a boycott on this kind of product will do anything or get some traction. The change has to come either from within or from media exposure of conditions and awareness.
I still respect the hell out those actions OP , they might not do anything but they sure mean something.
It is very sad to hear about that, it always is. I've worked/work in software and having a bad work environment is just toxic and good for no one in the long run. I guess the few execs get richer in their own term but everything else might be shit.
But I got to own up to it because I will most likely buy the game
. I don't think a boycott on this kind of product will do anything or get some traction. The change has to come either from within or from media exposure of conditions and awareness.I still respect the hell out those actions OP , they might not do anything but they sure mean something.
LegitMcfalls
Member
OP do you buy cars? Working in the auto industry has shown me some real shady stuff. Stuff that makes long overtime and crunch time seem innocent. Would you boycott cars like you want to boycott Rockstar? There is shady practises in every form of business.
Or he could borrow it or buy it used. Which is a totally valid form of commerce.
Look more whataboutism. Lmao.
unknownhero
Member
pretty much. the developers are already paid when they made the game more or less.
LegitMcfalls
Member
Whataboutwhataboutism?
LinkSlayer64
Member
All these people making comments about terrible things going on in industries:
This is where the OP has begun to draw their line. What have any of you done?
This is where the OP has begun to draw their line. What have any of you done?
FlutterPuffs
Member
Honestly, it's probably the working environment and culture for the whole of Rockstar.
Heard bad things about GTA's dev team too.
Heard bad things about GTA's dev team too.
Papo Swing
Member
Thing is the developers still get paid fired and recycled regardless of you buying it or not. And in some manner some of them would still like for you to at least experience the hard work they did.
I can't do what OP is doing. Hell I can't wait later than day one. At least buying used has some sentiment to it and that counts.
I don't think this will affect my purchases, whenever I eat food or wear clothes you can pretty much guarantee some worker was exploited in its production.
Plus don't the developers who are working tirelessly have an interest in seeing RDR2 sell well? Not buying it doesn't seem like it would do them any favors.
Plus don't the developers who are working tirelessly have an interest in seeing RDR2 sell well? Not buying it doesn't seem like it would do them any favors.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Everyone who reads this thread is going to forget about it once the game comes out.
LegitMcfalls
Member
Not buying a game is not going to help poor practises. What it will do is make things worse for the devs when the game flops and layoffs happen. The only change will happen from inside rockstar. If Rockstar cant attract the talent then maybe they will change their practises but until then there is always eager devs trying to break in the industry.
LinkSlayer64
Member
what have any of you done?
adversarial
Member
I feel like not buying the game would mean all their over-worked hours were for naught.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
MetalliCabombination
Member
Day 1, will reward myself and the devs.
But you guys keep fighting the good fight
But you guys keep fighting the good fight
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
They just want to ride this toboggan all the way to the bottom.
Double Donut
Member
I don't get what anyone's supposed to do. We love video games, we don't want to give up so many great games over something we can't help. Sorry?
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Im not -not- buying the game as "a boycott" or anything. I just don't like how they do business in my field and I wont support it. It wont change anything, duh. Everybody on this thread says that thinking its a big plot twist. I know, they don't need me, that's fine.
What can make a change happen though, its visibility. EA would still be the kings of crunch if the EA Spouse scandal didn't take place. Support the company all you want, but at least now you have actual details on what its like to make this game.
As a curiosity, if you're being bullied at work, you go to your boss to complain and he says "well the car industry has it worse, so dont complain" what would your reaction be?
Spring-Loaded
Member
Won't they have already been paid (presumably) by the time the game comes out? How much of a purchase goes to the people whom this thread is about?
MetalliCabombination
Member
I honestly don't know and don't care. If i think about the animals that died every time i eat food I'd starve to death.
Now I'm not comparing the devs to animals, but life is biased and work is shitty for a lot of us. They could do better and they could do a lot worse than working at rockstar, trust me. If i were in their place i'd behave like a grown up, check my financial situation and then decide whether i needed to switch jobs or not. I certainly wouldn't boycott work and expect things to become magically better
The comment I quoted just seemed so half-hearted on the issue, the guy doesn't want to support a company that makes use of horrible crunch times, but he still wants to enjoy the product of the employees who had to work under those conditions. It just came off as a hollow gesture of "support" while skirting around the issue to still enjoy the game these people apparently worked very hard on to produce.
I get it that the money spent on the game will probably never gets into the pocket of the people who were working on RDR2, but in some small way it does make it to the ones still employed and probably heading into the development of the next game they will make and will probably be under those same working conditions.
I get it that the money spent on the game will probably never gets into the pocket of the people who were working on RDR2, but in some small way it does make it to the ones still employed and probably heading into the development of the next game they will make and will probably be under those same working conditions.
I'm happy to not buy products from companies with terrible work conditions like this. I can't do this for every single aspect of my life, but in the case of a luxury like one specific video game, I'm happy to do it.
I do wish developers knew how much their work is appreciated by fans. Without them, there would literally be no games to play.
I do wish developers knew how much their work is appreciated by fans. Without them, there would literally be no games to play.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, "abusive work environments" is basically a dime a dozen in our industry. Hell, our consoles and our gaming devices are all created by a system that is basically abusive to their workers, and this is not really a secret that is unknown either.
So, to Raging Spaniard or the OP I ask, why stop at just Rockstar? Why not quit gaming completely, if you are a moral person who cannot stand and will not stand on supporting abusive work environments? Why just stop at Red Dead Redemption 2?
I can somewhat understand the argument about inability to quit stuff even if you dislike how they're being produced since they're tightly related to how we function and contribute to society, such as mobile phones or clothings, but surely an argument cannot be made about how video games are required for us to function and contribute properly in society?
So, I ask again, are you planning to quit video gaming altogether? If not, then why just stop at Rockstar and Red Dead Redemption 2? What makes this one so offensive to you that you don't want to buy their products and yet you're okay with enjoying and purchasing other products of video games that are most probably created with abusive working environment considering how video games industry is basically created and supported by such practices in an incredibly involved/intricate kind of way?
So, to Raging Spaniard or the OP I ask, why stop at just Rockstar? Why not quit gaming completely, if you are a moral person who cannot stand and will not stand on supporting abusive work environments? Why just stop at Red Dead Redemption 2?
I can somewhat understand the argument about inability to quit stuff even if you dislike how they're being produced since they're tightly related to how we function and contribute to society, such as mobile phones or clothings, but surely an argument cannot be made about how video games are required for us to function and contribute properly in society?
So, I ask again, are you planning to quit video gaming altogether? If not, then why just stop at Rockstar and Red Dead Redemption 2? What makes this one so offensive to you that you don't want to buy their products and yet you're okay with enjoying and purchasing other products of video games that are most probably created with abusive working environment considering how video games industry is basically created and supported by such practices in an incredibly involved/intricate kind of way?
poodaddy
Member
I suppose that's true, but I wish discussion and consideration were the first reactions rather than insult and ridicule.
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Thanks for the long post, Ive adressed your point multiple times in this thread (people ask the same question about 3 times per page) so just go back a bit and youll see some more posts.
What I really don't understand is the constant pervasiveness of management viewing employees as numbers on a spreadsheet and red in the column. Business schools around the country need to really emphasize taking care of the employee more. Taking care of your employees will pay dividends in the end. You'll have top talent wanting to work there, a great atmosphere, experienced employees because they don't want to leave and they will bust their ass for you just because they want to.
Once you get to that point, management just needs to weed out the occasional detractors to that formula. Put the staff on salary and when they don't have an important life/family matter, they will stay late to make sure that texture or animation is much improved from where it was. The employees will have more efficiency in their work and (while I have no data to prove this) I wholeheartedly believe that you would need less crunch to get the game done.
Rockstar games rake in the $$$. There is absolutely zero reason their employees are treated badly other than massive corporate greed and indifference.
Currently in health care and leaving it for software engineering. The same shit happens in hospitals only people's lives are on the line and they have inexperienced staff because the experienced ones they had were making too much money. My end goal is to own my own business of some sort, hopefully a bar and grill. I've seen how not to do things from literally every perspective and would love to start a good place that does right by its workers. I don't need 500,000 or 7+ figures to live on each year...why wouldn't my employees share in the success if it is successful? You just can't give your good ones 'fuck you' money, you need them to stick around.
Once you get to that point, management just needs to weed out the occasional detractors to that formula. Put the staff on salary and when they don't have an important life/family matter, they will stay late to make sure that texture or animation is much improved from where it was. The employees will have more efficiency in their work and (while I have no data to prove this) I wholeheartedly believe that you would need less crunch to get the game done.
Rockstar games rake in the $$$. There is absolutely zero reason their employees are treated badly other than massive corporate greed and indifference.
Currently in health care and leaving it for software engineering. The same shit happens in hospitals only people's lives are on the line and they have inexperienced staff because the experienced ones they had were making too much money. My end goal is to own my own business of some sort, hopefully a bar and grill. I've seen how not to do things from literally every perspective and would love to start a good place that does right by its workers. I don't need 500,000 or 7+ figures to live on each year...why wouldn't my employees share in the success if it is successful? You just can't give your good ones 'fuck you' money, you need them to stick around.
Tajaz2426
Psychology PhD from Wikipedia University
These people choose to do the job they want to do. Just like people choose to join the fire department, lawyers, police, military, etc. it doesn't phase me one but thstbhave to work overtime. In the military there are thousands upon thousands of people that give up their family time, free time, and any other time for their job. My delpoyments ran 7 months away from home, then come back 3 weeks and hit 29 palms or Yuma for excersies working up to the next deployment. Each job come with its risk and rewards.
This isn't any different then any other job. My wife is a Post Master and works 12 hours or so a day to make sure everything is straight going out the door. No one has to work the overtime, they have a choice to walk out the door.
People that work at these places know there is a crunch time to have a product out. People these days like to complain over little things when there are bug things going on around them. If you don't like it get a job where you know there isn't overtime, it's very simple.
Edit: now if they are getting beaten, not paid their wages then I can and will stand behind their complaints.
This isn't any different then any other job. My wife is a Post Master and works 12 hours or so a day to make sure everything is straight going out the door. No one has to work the overtime, they have a choice to walk out the door.
People that work at these places know there is a crunch time to have a product out. People these days like to complain over little things when there are bug things going on around them. If you don't like it get a job where you know there isn't overtime, it's very simple.
Edit: now if they are getting beaten, not paid their wages then I can and will stand behind their complaints.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
It would be cool when you bought a used game some of the money went directly to the employee bank accounts. Just so at least the people doing the actual work get some form of appreciation from the fans.
LinkAndEpona
Banned
As much as I love the SoulsBorn games, after reading what working at From Software is allegedly like, I do feel sympathy for the staff.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I read all your posts.
So you're basically claiming that in the long years you have worked in the industry, it's how Rockstar treated their employees is where you draw the line?
Answer me this then: I am under the impression that abusive working environment is the norm of our industry, not the exception, but your posts seem to indicate that you think its actually the other way around. Is that what you are claiming?
Those things don't happen overnight. They're the result of people expressing concern and communicating and eventually getting enough support to make it happen.
There would be no unions if all talk stopped after the first concerns were waved away.
Of course. I edited my post after you replied to clarify, but my point is that a personal boycott will not really affect any change. It's going to take something bigger, and the more awareness of the issues and awareness that there are ways to solve them there is, the better, I agree. So we should keep talking about it, but I just want to be clear that it doesn't end at boycotts.
polyh3dron
Banned
Game devs need to unionize. This is not sustainable, and the publishers make too much money to treat the creators of their product like this.
Also, while I may ultimately buy this game, I'll probably wait until the price gets slashed considerably a year or more down the road now, thanks to this thread.
Also, while I may ultimately buy this game, I'll probably wait until the price gets slashed considerably a year or more down the road now, thanks to this thread.
Edit: Removed quote since it was edited and also removed.
Every thread I see someone talking about doing things like these, there are some people trying to invalidate the point saying they aren't doing enough. You need to be the mother of good choices and deeds to do good, or you can only chose "evil" and indifference.
Are you guys the same type that say "she ain't no saint"? Because you are saying the same, with other words.
If you think this actions won't help, ok. Discuss why. OP even said he isn't doing it as a boycott, but to him, it's a line he doesn't want to cross. If you do, it's your life.
Now... My take on this is. I won't buy RDR2. I didn't knew what they were going through, and neither about the 2010 issue.
I can't stand thinking of some big shot showing in a meeting comments like "I'll buy it anyway", "I don't care", "They will lose their jobs if they don't" and mine been one of them.
I didn't even had to work in game development to see company culture like this, and bosses who would do that.
I don't know what else I could do so far away from everything. The thing I can control - that is my money - they won't have it. If you know something else I could do, quote or PM me.